/ NEWS: The Works Bolt Choppers Email BMC

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
UKC News - on 29 Apr 2013
Chopped bolts at The Works, 5 kbIn a bizarre email to the BMC, the 'People's Climbing Front of the English Lake District' have claimed responsibility for the vandalism at The Works drytooling quarry...



Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=68023
The Pylon King on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News:

So its obviously not the 'People of the English Lake District's Climbing Front' then.
James Oakes - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News: And definitely not the popular front!
Only a hill - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News:
This is insane. Some people have too much time on their hands and take climbing way too seriously.
Ridge - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to James Oakes:

Splitters!

Back on track. So they object to dry tooling on rock routes, (fair enough), and will stop it by trashing a dedicated place that stops people having to dry tool on summer routes...
Dean177 - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News:
An extreme way of saying (they?) don't believe people will contain dry tooling to this single venue.
davidbeynon - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Ridge:
> (In reply to James Oakes)
>
> Splitters!

He's the popular peoples lakes climbing front.


GuyVG - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News:

what about the many quickdraws taken?
Frank the Husky - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News: I predict that they will get found out, and I can't wait for when that happens.
The Grist - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Ridge:

Am I allowed to use chalk to climb in the Lakes? Or are these people also part of the clean hands gang.

They need to wake up and see the damage that they have done.

I hope these idiots do not have a Welsh division or the other venues will be next.
goose299 - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to GuyVG:
It say's in the article, they're arranging for it all to be returned
Kemics - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News:

You really have to admire the logic contortionism there - people are less likely to dry tool inappropriate crags if there are no crags it's allowed on. As opposed to when they have a specific venue.

That's like saying - I don't want my cat to shit on the carpet. So I'm taking away its litter tray.

*slow clap*
Only a hill - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News:
"If you wanna join the PCF you'd have to REALLY hate dry-tooling."
"I do!"
"Oh yeah? How much?"
"A lot."
...
.....
"Right, you're in. Now go and vandalise a dry-tooling venue."
andic - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News:

some people take their trolling of UKC too far but seriously I think the email counts as a reply and so gets a fail in my book
toad - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News: slightly unrelated note - I'm not sure about the BMCs use of a silly stock photo to illustrate their article
Jamie B - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News:

It seems that the perpetrators see dry-tool training as being a root-cause of snowed-up rock routes being done under light cover. Does anyone really believe this to be the case?
Fredt on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News:

For myself, I don't see the point in dry tooling, it sounds like a substitute, as well as a euphanism for masturbation.

However, I'm open minded. But also a little scared. I know a quarry near me where I've never seen anybody climb in forty years. I have soloed around it, cleaned a few lines, and sometimes I see that others may have cleaned some lines, it's not in any guidebook, and I hope it never is. It's nice there, and unspoilt.
Now if some dry tools came along with the argument that they were justified in wrecking my climbs, and those of others because its not in any guidebook, not on UKC, not used by anyone, then in my opinion that is no justification at all.

There are other venues near me that I have frequented occaisionally over those 40 years, one of them is a green slimy set of climbs that very occasionally dries out and then has some superb lines. I've never seen anyone climb there, its rarely in condition, but they're in guidebooks. Who decides on the definition of unused?
(I have rewritten the last paragraph because at first I named the venue as an example, but then I got scared, - if I named the green slimy virtually unused venue, am I inviting the dry tools along?)
bluebealach - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News: I may be taking this far too seriously, but can IP addresses on an 'anonymous' e-mail be traced??

It was Criminal Damage and Theft so presumably the Cumbria Constabulary are involved??
MJ - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to bluebealach:

It was Criminal Damage and Theft so presumably the Cumbria Constabulary are involved??

Shouldn't that be the 'Constabulary of Cumbria'?
johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Jamie B:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> It seems that the perpetrators see dry-tool training as being a root-cause of snowed-up rock routes being done under light cover. Does anyone really believe this to be the case?

I'm not sure anyone knows. But my guess is that the legitimisation of dry tooling was a factor in DM's recent remarkable decision to introduce it to the Ben, yes.

jcm
Niall - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Only a hill:
> (In reply to UKC News)
> "If you wanna join the PCF you'd have to REALLY hate dry-tooling."
> "I do!"
> "Oh yeah? How much?"
> "A lot."
> ...
> .....
> "Right, you're in. Now go and vandalise a dry-tooling venue."

DryTooleres Eunt Domus!
Ramon Marin - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News:

Well, since I don't have a drytooling venue anymore because of these people, then I'll go and drytool a traditional summer, see how they like that!

Just kidding! But they are contradicting themselves, because NOW there's more risk of people drytooling normal routes since there isn't a dedicated place for it.
Redsetter - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News: SO the PFJ of the lake district have struck..and if you are aleged climbers then you are likely to be reading this forumn..

1stly....your a bunch of idiots, and not even worthy of the trad racks you own.

2ndly.... you are now liable for criminal damage and stealing, I hope someone feels your collars

3rd....you actions will now cause the rock to be damaged even more, as all of the lethal sharp bolt remains will have to be removed/repaired..

I personally dont see the point of dry tooling, but there are correct ways of going about this..

nuff said

bluebealach - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to MJ:
> (In reply to bluebealach)
>

> Shouldn't that be the 'Constabulary of Cumbria'?

Have I missed something or did it just go straight over my head?

Steve nevers on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News:
> 'People's Climbing Front of the English Lake District'


Guessing thats a very poor lift on the frcc's name..

Sounds like theres a idiot suffering from megalomania up that way.


Chris the Tall - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to bluebealach:
> (In reply to UKC News) I may be taking this far too seriously, but can IP addresses on an 'anonymous' e-mail be traced??
>
> It was Criminal Damage and Theft so presumably the Cumbria Constabulary are involved??

A job for CSI Ambleside perhaps ?
Ramon Marin - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Fredt:

If there's evidence of climbing, and the quarry is good for climbing, we wouldn't bolt it, of course. I would get my rock shoes and chalk bag out and try to repeat the lines cleaned.

The Works is impossible to climb on, too loose, wet and dirty, and lack of holds. And no one would bother anyways with so much amazing rock around
bouldery bits - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Niall:
> (In reply to Only a hill)
> [...]
>
> DryTooleres Eunt Domus!

HAhahah! Amazing
GrahamD - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Ridge:

> Back on track. So they object to dry tooling on rock routes, (fair enough), and will stop it by trashing a dedicated place that stops people having to dry tool on summer routes...

Irrespective of the rights or wrongs of this incident, noone ever HAS to dry tool on summer routes.
bluebealach - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> (In reply to bluebealach)
> [...]
>
> A job for CSI Ambleside perhaps ?

CSI?? My God, they have come a long way!!

Wonder if they will be dusting the crag for fingerprints??
GPN - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to bluebealach:
I think that's what's known as a joke ;o)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSI:Ambleside
tom_in_edinburgh - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News:

I hope the Cumbria Constabulary have a crack squad of infiltrators lined up to penetrate this dangerous organisation.
bluebealach - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to GPN:
> (In reply to bluebealach)
> I think that's what's known as a joke ;o)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSI:Ambleside

Totally lost on me.......I'm still rocking to Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky Mick and Titch!!!!!!! ;)

MJ - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to bluebealach:

Have I missed something or did it just go straight over my head?

It's a continuation of the 'The Life of Brian' theme that is running through this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE

cuppatea on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News:

It was alluded to above but how does the bmc etc al know the email wasn't the most delicious troll in the world ever?
John1923 - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News:

Hire an ethical hacker to trace the e-mail, then name and shame. It is really hard to send an "anonymous" e-mail.
JimmyKay - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News:

'It is the inailable right of Every man' '...or woman'

'to rid himself' ... 'or herself'

'Agreed'

'Thank you brother'.... 'Or sister'

'Why don't you shut up about women?' .... 'Women have a perfect right to be part of our movement.'

mattrm - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to John1923:

John - I would imagine that someone has setup a throwaway gmail/yahoo/hotmail account. So in that case, tracing them is going to be rather hard. But yes, in general it's pretty easy to trace an email. Still if that email ends with gmail/yahoo/hotmail, it might as well be anonymous.
Bulls Crack - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to andic:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> some people take their trolling of UKC too far but seriously I think the email counts as a reply and so gets a fail in my book

I thought it rather good - 8/10 the diagram is a nice touch
Rockmonkey1977 on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News: Is there any truth in the rumour that the Lakes Dry Toolers (LTD for short) are planning to bolt a number of Lakes 'classics' in retaliation... I hope so as it'll save me having to mess around with all that trad tat in the future.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Andrew Mallinson - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Jamie B:
Hi Jamie,
A route cause? Obviously open to debate, but I bet you one thing...in less than 10 years time there will be dry-tool routes all over the mountains of England, Wales and Scotland....
I make no observation as to if this is a good or bad thing, my view is my business...but it WILL happen.
ANdy
JamesMortimer4 - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News: Whether you're for or against dry tooling, surely everyone can see that what the Judean People's Front, or whatever they're called, did is counter productive to everyone's cause: the Dry Toolers have nowhere to tool and people will get annoyed because those who use(d) the works will turn up at their favourite crags with sharp pointy things? I hope the culprits are found and not only made to fix the damage but also educated on how what they did proves nothing and helps nobody.
Stuart Wildman - on 29 Apr 2013
Dougal Haston: What have the BMC ever done for us?
Don Whillans: The only people we hate more than the BMC are the f*cking English Lake District People's Climbing Front
Joe Brown: Yeah Splitters
Don Whillans: And the English Lake District People's Popular Climbing Front
Joe Brown: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Splitters. Splitters...
Chris Bonington And the People's Climbing Front of the English Lake District
Joe Brown: Yeah. Splitters. Splitters...
Dougal Haston: What?
Chris Bonington: The People's Climbing Front of the English Lake District. Splitters.
Don Whillans: We're the People's Climbing Front of the English Lake District!
Chris Bonington: Oh. I thought we were the Popular Front.
Don Whillans: People's Front! C-huh.
Chris Bonington: Whatever happened to the Popular Front, Reg?
Don Whillans: He's over there.

All: Splitter!
MatthewBerry - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Stuart Wildman:
Perfect :D
The Ex-Engineer - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News: The chopper is bang out of order but he (or she) does unfortunately raise a point worthy of debate.

The new winter guide suggests dry-tooling will keep people off out of condition crags. There's a small flaw with this theory, it's been shown to be absolutely b******s.

I don't think the existence of The Works per se, will make much difference either way.

It is beneficial as it may concentrate dry-tooling development in a suitable venue and cut down on 'exploration' of other marginal training venues but I can't see it will really reduce the number of climbers making ill-conceived route choices in Winter.

Unfortunately, what I can see is that aggressive commercial promotion of dry-tooling and the presence of lower grade routes will almost certainly lead to an increase in relatively inexperienced and less skilled climbers, a number of whom will undoubtedly go on to climb on blatantly out of condition Winter routes (albeit hopefully before learning the error of their ways).

It is worth remembering that for many, many years it was official BMC policy NOT to actively promote climbing in any way due to a combination of initially moral and then later also environmental considerations.

As such, whilst I don't feel too strongly about it, the commercial overtones and evangelical nature of some involved in dry-tooling does slightly concern me. Also, I am especially uneasy about the idea of lower grade (e.g. M4) routes being developed and equipped.

I really don't know what the long-term solution will be, but I currently can't help thinking that anything other than dry-tooling remaining a fairly elite and minority activity will inevitably result in more classic summer routes getting trashed as 'collateral damage'.
Misha - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
I'm not so sure. Winter ethics have nothing to do with dry tooling. Winter climbers are a community and ethical principles are shared through people you know through clubs etc, magazine articles and UKC threads (see for instance the Welsh winter conditions thread). Most winter climbers are responsible.

How many cases of out of conditions ascents of easier routes (up to VI) are there each year? A handful gets named and shamed on UKC and there must be a few more out there but that's a minority - and it isn't due to dry tooling as there have always been ascents on dubious conditions. The vast majority of winter ascents are legit from what I see and hear. If anything, with the better conditions info on the net these days, there might be fewer dodgy ascents as people can see that conditions are poor and do don't bother going. It's just that you get to hear about anything controversial pretty quickly, again via the net.

Easier routes give people a chance to have a play on something they can get up without a pumpfest epic. What's wrong with that? They also give punters like me something to warm up on!
Epsilon - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
> As such, whilst I don't feel too strongly about it, the commercial overtones and evangelical nature of some involved in dry-tooling does slightly concern me.

This sort of thing keeps getting trotted out, and I've yet to see anyone actually justify this sort of claim with any kind of substance. What is inherently more "commercial" or "evangelical" about drytooling than any other form of climbing?

In fact, I'll stick my neck out a bit further: trad climbing is both more "commercial" and more "evangelical" than drytooling. The former because it encourages climbers to go out and spend copious pounds on gear (a full trad rack is going to cost considerably more than a kit for sport M-climbing would), and the later because of the way strict ethics are applied with an almost religious fervor sometimes.
wilkie14c - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Only a hill:
> (In reply to UKC News)
> This is insane. Some people have too much time on their hands and take climbing way too seriously.

<insert like button here>
wilkie14c - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to andic:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> some people take their trolling of UKC too far but seriously I think the email counts as a reply and so gets a fail in my book

<and another like for that gem>
abseil on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to blanchie14c:
> (In reply to Only a hill)
> [...]
>
> <insert like button here>

Ditto.

I'm Spartacus and so is my wife (work that one out).

Gordon Stainforth - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News:

Oh, gosh, this is fun. I'm not someone ever to get v enthusiastic about political protests, but I really can't get too 'upset' about this 'awful' new political group. The irony, of course, it that their removal of bolts is described as 'vandalism', when obviously what they are objecting to is the vandalism of bolts in the first place.
Mike Stretford - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Apparently not.
puppythedog on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

HI Gordon, just read your book Fiva and it was a great read.

The irony, of course, it that their removal of bolts is described as 'vandalism', when obviously what they are objecting to is the vandalism of bolts in the first place.

The irony is that it is vandalism in response to their perception of the bolting as vandalism. It is not irony that others perceive their actions as vandalism, from the photo's I have seen it can only be called Vandalism, the rock has not been returned to its glory, just damage done to the metal bits.

I have no position on this argument whatsoever other than finding the notion that it is not vandalism vexing. It is vandalism, many may feel it is justified but it remains vandalism.
Gordon Stainforth - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to puppythedog:

OK, you're making subtle points about the fact that these protesters don't return the rock to its former glory. But of course their 'vandalism' would never have taken place if that defamation of the rock (with drills and bits of metal) hadn't occurred in the first place.
Gordon Stainforth - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to puppythedog:
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
>
> HI Gordon, just read your book Fiva and it was a great read.

Forgot to thank you for this comment. It was a real pleasure to write a book that tried to reproduce as truthfully as possible just how that age of rather simpler and purer values felt.
puppythedog on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: It's not a subtle point, by all means agree with their actions but don't pretend they were a gentle non damaging protest, don't romanticise their actions, their motives may be romantic but I don't see that their actions are. A lot of effort went into systematically damaging that equipment.
Mike Stretford - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Gordon, the perps claim to be protesting about the tooling of existing rock routes (or ice climbing rock routes out of condition), not about the bolting of the Works itself.
Gordon Stainforth - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to puppythedog:

I'll have to confess that I've only skim read what they're doing, and seen that picture of a guy in a balaclava ... but can't help feeling that, at bottom, like is being met with like.

Sorry, I come from a (rather sad?) old-school tradition of climbing in which we try to leave - as far as possible - no trace of our presence on the rocks. End of.
Gordon Stainforth - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Papillon:
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth) Gordon, the perps claim to be protesting about the tooling of existing rock routes (or ice climbing rock routes out of condition), not about the bolting of the Works itself.

That seems like a very worthwhile protest too.

Mike Stretford - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: To me, it's obviously misdirected.
puppythedog on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Again my point is not about whether you agree with the Groups distate for Drytooling, bolting etc. My point is regardles of their motives from what I understand they have merely done more damage to the area. An Eye for an Eye and the one eyed man is king.
Gordon Stainforth - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to puppythedog:

OK, I take your point re. something I have not read up about properly. But ... we still need to ask ourselves why anyone would be feeling so strongly. Just like the Everest altercation.
Tom V - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News:

What happened to the post which implicated a well known local artisan?
Muel - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News:

Angering a group of people who practice swinging axes at things... Yeh good plan!

Personally I think this group are utter scum, and very much hope I catch them chopping bolts one day. They're a total disgrace to climbing. I dearly hope they get caught.
MG - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> Oh, gosh, this is fun. I'm not someone ever to get v enthusiastic about political protests, but I really can't get too 'upset' about this 'awful' new political group.

It is rather entertaining! I think those in favour should set up the Lake District Bolt Protection League and mount round-the-clock guards at dry-tooling venues. We could see full on Hilti vs Bolt Cutter riots before long.
patrick_b - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Niall:
> (In reply to Only a hill)
> [...]
>
> DryTooleres Eunt Domus!

"What's this? People called DryTooler, they go, the house?"

"It says, DryToolers go home."

"No it doesn't!"

davidbeynon - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to patrick_b:

Conjugate the verb!
MJ - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to MG:

I think those in favour should set up the Lake District Bolt Protection League

F*ck off, it's the Bolt Protection League of the Lake District...
timmsy - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News: Why do they need funded preplaced clips?
Surely its either place pro on the way or top rope if you can't do it.
Dave Garnett - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to puppythedog)
>
> Sorry, I come from a (rather sad?) old-school tradition of climbing in which we try to leave - as far as possible - no trace of our presence on the rocks. End of.

I understand what you mean Gordon, and to a large extent I agree, but have you ever been to the quarries round Hodge Close? They have a majestic disregard for the natural landscape that is beautiful in an industrial kind of way, but untouched by human hand they certainly aren't.
Sir Chasm - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to puppythedog)
>
> I'll have to confess that I've only skim read what they're doing, and seen that picture of a guy in a balaclava ... but can't help feeling that, at bottom, like is being met with like.

It's a stock photo, ffs.
>
> Sorry, I come from a (rather sad?) old-school tradition of climbing in which we try to leave - as far as possible - no trace of our presence on the rocks. End of.

Hmmmm, which generation left most of the rotting ironmongery?
Dave Garnett - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to timmsy:
> (In reply to UKC News) Why do they need funded preplaced clips?
> Surely its either place pro on the way or top rope if you can't do it.


Maybe you can see the problem?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=203857
timmsy - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Dave Garnett:
cheers Dave, i guess so but you still have to clip the rope so why not clip the bolt first? You can either get your hands off or not.
Gordon Stainforth - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Sir Chasm:
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
> [...]
>
> It's a stock photo, ffs.
> [...]
>
> Hmmmm, which generation left most of the rotting ironmongery?

We removed it all, very conscientiously, in the early 1970s once decent nuts had been invented. Can you remember 'Free the Pass?' Even some of the great pioneers of the 50s, like Joe Brown, were very uncomfortable about placing pegs.

Sir Chasm - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: I'm not criticizing the use of pegs in the past, merely commenting on your rose tinted view that you took nothing but photos and left nothing but footprints.
Misha - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to timmsy:
Same reason they have per placed draws at Malham etc. It's hard enough with the draws in so the ethic is it's ok to lead on pre placed draws.
maybe_si - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News:

With regard the in situ clips, its not so much about making it easier to lead the routes, its more about the utter faff of stripping the route afterwards, you cant just lower off, its more like having to reverse aid the entire route!
Alun - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> We removed it all, very conscientiously, in the early 1970s once decent nuts had been invented.

With respect Gordon, this argument is daft - the rock still got damaged.

The 'environmental', or 'vandalism', anti-bolt argument is, in general, hypocritical rubbish; and doubly so given the nature of the venue in question (a man-made quarry).

The ethical argument is a different one altogether, and it's one I have some sympathy for. But I don't see the need to ruin it by spouting nonsense about 'environmental vandalism'. In a slate quarry!
ice.solo - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News:

is that it??!!? what a stupid email.

sense of humour of a first year uni student from 1982 with nothing to say after trashing someone elses hard work. for f*cks sake.

i was hoping for some intelligent, outraged, ballsey rant against somthing-or-other, but seems theyre even more juvenile than damaging DT routes first indicated.

harden the f*ck up and present a decent cause or go down in popular memory as the fools that lent sympathy to drytooling where it didnt exist before.
kids that spray paint shit on walls do better than this.
Andy Say - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to UKC News:
If I've got this right the news of the bolt chopping was reported on UKC at ten o'clock on Friday night and caused a lot of pretty immediate comment.
An email is waiting at in the BMC officer's inbox on Monday morning claiming responsibility.

I'd be interested to know just when the email was sent. If it was sent before the reporting of the action then I'd be slightly more convinced it was genuine.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Stone Muppet - on 30 Apr 2013
Full aggreement with both ice.solo and Andy.
Epsilon - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to puppythedog)
>
> OK, you're making subtle points about the fact that these protesters don't return the rock to its former glory. But of course their 'vandalism' would never have taken place if that defamation of the rock (with drills and bits of metal) hadn't occurred in the first place.

Does "defamation of the rock" include the liberal application of dynamite?
Andy Say - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Epsilon:
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
> [...]
>
> Does "defamation of the rock" include the liberal application of dynamite?

I think that's 'deformation'.
Sir Chasm - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Andy Say: Well, it's been slated.
Stone Muppet - on 30 Apr 2013
All this controversy has made me think it might be worth having a go at dry tooling, maybe in the Works itself once it's regeared. Presumably I'm not the only one so the vandals have clearly scored a bit of an own goal there.

What tools do you actually need? Will my existing axes (vertige alpinist) + a normal set of climbing crampons do the job? Do I want vertical or horizontal front points or doesn't it matter?
Epsilon - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Stone Muppet:
> All this controversy has made me think it might be worth having a go at dry tooling, maybe in the Works itself once it's regeared. Presumably I'm not the only one so the vandals have clearly scored a bit of an own goal there.
>
> What tools do you actually need? Will my existing axes (vertige alpinist) + a normal set of climbing crampons do the job? Do I want vertical or horizontal front points or doesn't it matter?

You could probably get up some easier stuff (M4ish routes) but it will be a lot more fun with leashless tools and monopoint crampons. Part of the appeal of drytooling is doing cool movements that are largely unique to that style (stein pulls, figure-fours, etc.).
Smith42 on 01 May 2013
In reply to UKC News:
The quarry is a manmade hole in the ground that is no use to anyone and without any real climbing potential (sport, trad etc) or any other uses.

What Paddy and the lads did, with the backing of several major outdoor companies,with the permission of land owners, general backing from winter climbing community and the consent of the BMC(?) was transform this hole into a training facility of NATIONAL significance, equal or better than White Goods or Newtyle.
Smith42 on 01 May 2013
In reply to Smith42:
Even if some mis guided beginners learn from dry tooling then stray onto out of condition winter routes two things will happen.

1. Climbing has always been self regulating and they will learn very quickly from their peers what is in and what is out of condition.
2. They will find the routes harder and more serious without frozen turf and chock stones and learn the hard way.

If the concern is the proliferation of bolts from here onto mountain crags then what about other bolted venues (slate and limestone) where sport and trad sit side by side?

I suspect the root cause is on a much more personal level toward those who have developed the Works or forthcoming DT Workshop and the perpetrators are now trying to hide behind false altruistic motives.
Smith42 on 01 May 2013
In reply to Smith42:
I hope the Works is back up and running soon. 100% behind the dry toilers on this one.
johncoxmysteriously - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Smith42:

>If the concern is the proliferation of bolts from here onto mountain crags then what about other bolted venues (slate and limestone) where sport and trad sit side by side?

You're not helping yourself much there. It sounds as though you think bolts on mountain crags would be fine. This is not a popular view (at least not in the Lakes). If toilers (doncha love spellcheckers?) want to take over the world, they'll need to be subtler than that.

jcm
Simon Caldwell - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Smith42:
> what about other bolted venues (slate and limestone) where sport and trad sit side by side?

come to Yorkshire, you'll find that the trad is slowly being turned into sport.
simes303 - on 02 May 2013
In reply to puppythedog:
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
>
> HI Gordon, just read your book Fiva and it was a great read.
>
> The irony, of course, it that their removal of bolts is described as 'vandalism', when obviously what they are objecting to is the vandalism of bolts in the first place.
>
> The irony is that it is vandalism in response to their perception of the bolting as vandalism. It is not irony that others perceive their actions as vandalism, from the photo's I have seen it can only be called Vandalism, the rock has not been returned to its glory, just damage done to the metal bits.
>
> I have no position on this argument whatsoever other than finding the notion that it is not vandalism vexing. It is vandalism, many may feel it is justified but it remains vandalism.


You said "vandalism" 9 times in just 5 sentences, that's pretty good.

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.