UKC

Is it true that anti depressants can improve your psychological performance when trad lead climbing?

In reply to captainfire576: All I know is that they can become very addictive, in that you become dependent on them, obviously. That's from personal experience. I wouldn't recommend anyone to go there, not even for a million quid. Same with pain-killers, and from personal experience. It's not going to end up with you feeling like climbing, put it that way. It might make you want to jump off the crag you have just climbed.

In reply to captainfire576:

I'd stick to amphetamines if I were you.

LSD is definitely a bad idea,

In reply to Removed User:

not true

(except paroxetine)

though absolutely agree there is no role for them as performance enhancers in climbing, cant even imagine why anyone would think they might be,

cheers
gregor

In reply to captainfire576: again antidepressants are not addictive, you may be thinking of tranquillisers which certainly are

In reply to icnoble:

Well that's great news!

That meansall he needs to do is neck a couple of packets of Prozak a week and he'll be on sighting E7 next year. If he isn't eating his tea through a tube.

In reply to Removed User:

no, don't be silly, there's no way they'll get him onsighting any better than E6.

In reply to Removed User:

sound advice in the case of climbing. reversible in most other cases.

In reply to ice.solo:

if on lsd or mushrooms, I'd definitely steer clear of the bowline!

In reply to ledifer:

bowlines more of a nitrous-type knot

In reply to icnoble:

You can develop a physical dependency though.

In reply to The New NickB:

again, no- Here's what the ICD says about diagnostic criteria for substance dependency:

A definite diagnosis of dependence should usually be made only if three or more of the following have been present together at some time during the previous year:
(a) a strong desire or sense of compulsion to take the substance;
(b) difficulties in controlling substance-taking behaviour in terms of its onset,
termination, or levels of use;
(c) a physiological withdrawal state (see F1x.3 and F1x.4) when substance use has ceased or been reduced, as evidenced by: the characteristic withdrawal syndrome
for the substance; or use of the same (or a closely related) substance with the intention of relieving or avoiding withdrawal symptoms;
(d) evidence of tolerance, such that increased doses of the psychoactive substances are required in order to achieve effects originally produced by lower doses (clear examples of this are found in alcohol- and opiate-dependent individuals who may take daily doses sufficient to incapacitate or kill nontolerant users);
(e) progressive neglect of alternative pleasures or interests because of psychoactive substance use, increased amount of time necessary to obtain or take the substance or to recover from its effects;
(f) persisting with substance use despite clear evidence of overtly harmful
consequences, such as harm to the liver through excessive drinking, depressive mood states consequent to periods of heavy substance use, or drug-related impairment of cognitive functioning; efforts should be made to determine that the user was actually, or could be expected to be, aware of the nature and extent of the harm

by these criteria antidepressants are not dependence-forming substances

with the exception of paroxetine, which has a very short half life and can indeed cause withdrawal symptoms.

best wishes

gregor

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

venlefaxine certainly causes withdrawl symptoms! I had a lot of trouble getting off it because I felt so bad (dizziness mainly-I'd turn my head and and the world would catch up a fraction of a second later, and really bad insomnia)

In reply to captainfire576: This is ridiculous. Do not abuse a susbstance of any kind under the (probably false) impression that it might help your climbing.

In reply to ice.solo:

The best advice is not to dabble, it might be interesting, or it might just fek you up. We've perfectly fine brains to start with. Yes I have dabbled. ()

In reply to captainfire576:

If its your head game that is letting you down a couple of good long pulls on a bottle of Teachers before the onsight is what you need.

In reply to captainfire576:

If you get depressed cos you can't get to the top, try again ...

In reply to captainfire576:

My wife had a short spell on antidepressants (SSRI's) and she very obviously became a lot more calm whilst climbing above gear than she was pre-antidepressants. She went up a couple of grades in fact. She's now off them and has returned to her previous grade. We both noticed the difference in her mindset when climbing, it was quite an interesting little side effect really.

In reply to freerangecat: Having withdrawal symptoms is not the only indicator of dependence though. You need to experience 3 of the listed problems.

In reply to captainfire576: speed to get you up in the morning a bit of coke before a route just to focus,beta blockers to slow your heart rate viagra to stop arm pump and weed to bring you down oh and some roids for musclular repair.......any more than that is just cheating

In reply to The Norris: I previously posted a question about psychological training for alpine climbing and some one suggested that anti depressants helped them get up some of their sketchiest climbs.

In reply to captainfire576:

Sniffin the gleg helps

In reply to captainfire576: Mate of mine has just been prescribed some and he was wondering.

In reply to puppythedog:
that makes sense, but I was only really answering his comment that only 1 antidepressant can cause withdrawal, which is, from my experience, incorrect.

I do see the value of antidepressants, but life would have to be really bad (and I mean Bad) for me to put up with the side effects and withdrawal again. I may just be quite sensitive to their (side) effects but not medication to be taken without a real need.

In reply to captainfire576:

I understand a bit of the pharmacology of how SSRIs work (no expert though) and from what i gather they kind of regulate the amount of serotonin in your synapses, so rather than having lots of peaks and troughs, which may cause up and down moods, they promote a higher, but stable amount, i think! I guess that would help someone deal with stressful situations better, and reduce irrational fear? Kind of makes sense i suppose.

In reply to The Norris: That's what I thought.

In reply to captainfire576:

I've known several folk on them and have had a few clients that I later found out were taking them or similar. The folk I knew well seemed to lose their irrational as well their rational fear of heights or for that matter most risky behaviour. Their grades improved to the extent they would eventually kill themselves and one did. It was kinda worrying watching them standing at the edge of crags or driving...

In reply to Ron Walker: Yikes!

In reply to the power:

so we've established that as the bare minimum to get through a short afternoon at the crag. I'm sure ether comes into it somewhere

In reply to captainfire576: Fc uking about with your brain chemistry to improve climbing is risky. Prozac made me not care to a level that would be dangerous.

In reply to The Norris:

We know that inhibiting serotonin reuptake (leaving more of it bouncing around in the synapses) seems to alleviate depression in a lot of people (it makes some people kill themselves, though). Nobody knows why this is, so you can't draw any further conclusions about how it might affect behaviour or emotions more generally.

In reply to marsbar: u mess with ur brain chemistry every time u go to the pub!

In reply to captainfire576:
I've just been prescribed anti depressants due to climbing too much.

I'd been getting freezing/burning pains in my arms at night, probably brought on back in feb when climbing in rjukan for 10 days solid. It's been getting worse since and keeping me awake at night. Doctor checked for carpal tunnel but said not common symptoms unless atypical. I'm going for nerve function test next week.
The anti depressants (one each night) suppress nerve function thus ease the painful sensation at night.
Might try one at breakfast tomorrow before trip to Simons seat on the hi-balls

In reply to captainfire576: I tend to go t'pub for a post climbing drink, not a pre climbing drink. Call me boring...

been back on prozac again for about a month now (can't believe how much better i am starting to feel) was on prozac about 17 years ago and although they worked the sides scared me enough to suffer for 17 years without meds.

don't know if it would improve my climbing but it will at least help me get out the house

In reply to lost1977: Glad you are feeling better. If that doesn't work for you there are others to try.

In reply to captainfire576: I would suggest your mate is careful and climbs with someone who knows about them, like I said I was a bit of a liability when I first started on them. I know they affect everyone differently, but I was a bit too chilled out for safety. Probably shouldn't have been driving really....

In reply to marsbar:

the bigger problem will be dealing with the safety behaviours i have built up over so many years

In reply to lost1977:
A response to no-one in particular. There is often unintended scaremongering on UKC re Anti-depressants; factually incorrect info, anecdotal evidence stretched out to some universal truth etc.
Please don't dissuade others from trying SSRI's if prescribed, based on your own poor experience maybe. Adequate supervision and good GP is important.
Effects vary widely from one person to next. SSRI's didn't work for me, but may be someone else's part or complete solution. I've seen dozens of people at both extremes, and many more in the middle.
Without eliminating SSRI's (1st line treatment) then 2nd and 3rd line treatment, I wouldn't have the last resort 4th line anti-depressant that undoubtedly saves my life, and gives partial relief from chemical and neurological torment.

In reply to monkeys:
I know this discussion is in Walls & Training, and started off about that, so i do get the OP's question

In reply to monkeys: Perhaps I should clarify my earlier responses, I'm not trying to scare anyone one off anti-ds. They have helped me a lot. Just not keen on people misusing them, and want people to be aware that for a small number of people the initial happy period might come with a need for care when doing dangerous things.

In reply to monkeys: it's just here because it was the most relevant forum

In reply to captainfire576:
Aye, I get that, so no worries. Plenty of wise folk on UKC, and it is my first port of call for lots, but, there are I'm sure impressionable lurkers too, and it's not a good place for medical stuff.
I appreciate the context of the OP's questions. Never noticed any difference to climbing with/without SSRI's myself.

In reply to marsbar:

^^^ This.

Actually I would suggest that "risky" in the above sentence could easily be replaced with "incredibly stupid at a level comensurate with playing russian roulette".

ADs affect different people different ways, even when said people are actually depressed. Plenty of people have try try several ADs before they find ones they get on with.

The wrong AD in the wrong person can cause violent mood swings, loss of control, or crawling into a corner and crying eyes out.

I would suggest that taking unprescribed ADs and disrupting a "normal" brain chemistry and then going and doing something requiring concentration and mental balance with a risk of death if you muck up, is up there with juggling chainsaws as a bright idea.

In reply to John_Hat: I've been told I have a tendency to understate..

In reply to captainfire576:

Depression is a potentially serious and debilitating illness. It should be diagnosed by a qualified doctor and treated by a doctor with possible support from mental health nurses and psychologists. Part of that treatment may well involve the use of one of many antidepressant drugs. All are prescription only medications in the UK and this is to protect potentially vulnerable patients.

Any prescription is a careful balance of risk verses benefit and needs careful personal discussion with one's doctor. The effect requires monitoring and dose or drug type changes may have to be made.

There is absolutely no situation where antidepressants should be considered for potential performance enhancement in climbing.

Please think very carefully prior to making any further public postings on this subject.

David Hillebrandt

In reply to captainfire576:

Seems to me that beta blockers would be my first port of call if I was looking for a pharmaceutical solution to anxiety when climbing above gear. They're used by dancers, musicians, and actors to reduce performance anxiety. Also, snookers players, shooters, archers, etc have used them but they are now banned by the IOC.

There are phsycological exercises that that can be used to produce the same effects as beta blockers though so that's definately where I would start.

In reply to BruceWee:


But why would anyone look for a pharmaceutical solution to that problem? By going climbing, you choose to put yourself in a situation which is incredibly stressful by everyday standards. The whole point of doing so, for me anyway, is to experience and to master my response to that stress.

It would seem a bizarre and counterproductive thing to do to willingly cause yourself enormous anxiety and then, when you find that the anxiety is problematic, look for a pharmaceutical solution rather than simply removing the cause of the anxiety or engaging in the challenge of overcoming it.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I completely agree. I would never take them. For me one of the things I love about climbing is controlling my emotions when I'm outside my comfort zone.

However, we're all different and there might be some people out there who are considering taking medication if they find their fight or flight reaction debilitating.

I think it's important to discuss these things openly rather than adopting a 'Just Say No' approach.

In reply to BruceWee:

I don't advocate a 'just say no' approach - rather a 'why do that?' approach.

If you don't enjoy the stress of being above your gear and have no interest in mastering it, go bouldering, don't take prescription only meds!

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Like I said, we're all different. Not everyone shares our motivations for going climbing and not everyone is able to control their fight or flight response in the same way we can.

Like I said earlier, there are many musicians who use or have used beta blockers, 27% according to one study. Would you tell them to just play in their rooms rather than playing for an audience? If they can't handle the pressure then surely they should avoid putting themselves in those situations.

I think it's a shame that there is still such a stigma surrounding mental health issues that the response to someone not being able to take part in an activity due to a brain chemistry problem is 'well you shouldn't be doing it'.

Would you tell someone with asthma that they shouldn't be climbing if they needed an inhaler?

In reply to BruceWee:


That's not comparable because the factor causing the anxiety (performance) is secondary and not actually a part of the activity (playing the piano).


I think that we live in an age where lots of problems are needlessly 'medicalised'. So if you're stressed out above your gear and start getting disco-leg, you're suggesting that it's got something to do with mental illness and a problem with brain chemistry? I think it's entirely natural and normal, and that systemic medication is a completely inappropriate response because it brings with it side effects and yet there is no problem to be solved.


No, because they have a health problem which can be overcome with medication. Feeling anxious above your gear is not a health problem.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

But they're still putting themselves in a situation that their bodies can't deal with and have to resort to medication. Shouldn't they just stick to playing in their bedrooms instead since they can't hack it?


If your level of fear is completely disproportional to the actual risk then I wouldn't say that it's a sign of mental illness but it is debilitating and stopping you from doing an activity you enjoy. The attitude that some people just can't hack it and should stay off the crags is counter-productive IMO. It reinforces the idea that an excessive emotional reaction is a sign of weakness when in actual fact it could be a brain chemistry issue that can be overcome with profesional help.


Feeling anxious above gear is not a health problem. Clinging to the rock until you fall off due to exhaustion despite the fact that you are above bomber gear is a sign of a problem with your fight or flight reaction and has to be addressed somehow. If all other solutions such as practice falling, mental training, etc fail then I don't think it's unreasonable to start looking at medication.

In reply to BruceWee:

We're not going to agree on this. I think taking systemic meds in order to enhance your life rather than to cure a health problem is deeply undesirable in principle. It opens up a world of opportunities for people to market products to us which promise to make us better than we are, whether that's more desirable to the opposite sex, better at sport, exams, etc.

All drug taking comes at a cost, and those costs are usually worth it when there's a health problem that can be addressed. I don't think there's sufficient justification to go messing about with your nervous system if you just want to improve your rock climbing - it's highly unlikely that the pros will outweigh the cons.

In reply to BruceWee: Is it worth it? What the point? why not go and do something else FFS!

In reply to captainfire576: The spanish seem to love weed when climbing!

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I actually think that we agree on most points. I would never take beta blockers because like you I feel that controlling my fear is a big part of the satisfaction of climbing.

However, I'm not going to judge anyone else for decisions they make. You can be prescribed beta blockers for things like public speaking and other one off occaisions so is it really so ridicoulous to take them for an exposed route and is it fair to lump them in with steroids and other performance enhancing drugs?

In reply to captainfire576: He is not taking them to enhance his climbing. He is taking it as it is prescribed by the doc and was wondering if improving his climbing could be a possible side affect.

In reply to captainfire576:

I guess it depends on the anti depressant he's taking, his character, and his motivations for climbing. It could improve his climbing, make it worse, or have no effect.

If the medication has anti-anxiety effects it's possible it could make him more relaxed and climb better. Other anti depressants can increase anxiety and have the opposite effect. Even if his anti-depressants increase or decrease his anxiety there's still a good chance it will have no effect on his climbing.

Depending on how serious he is about climbing the anti depressants could have a significant effect on his motivations. If you read Graeme Obree's book it shows that he was severely depressed and his dedication to breaking the hour record was his escape. It was as if he thought that his feelings would go away if he achieved his goal. Unfortunately he did achieve his goals and they didn't solve his emotional problems which led to him trying to kill himself three times.

Jeb Corliss says his depression was what got him into base jumping in the first place. He wanted to kill himself and decided that base jumping was the way to go. Ultimately, throwing all his energy into base jumping is what helped save him.

If your friend has been pouring all his energy into climbing then the anti depressants could cause him to re-evaluate his life and lose some of his intensity when it comes to climbing.

So, without much more information I don't think anyone will be able to tell you whether it will improve his climbing or not. In fact, even with all the information I don't think anyone will be able to tell you if they will improve is climbing or not.

In reply to captainfire576: If his climbing is 'improved' by an increased willingness to take risks, that's not a good thing. It's a major cause for concern, because he's more likely to get himself or somebody else hurt.
As David Hillebrandt pointed out above, its an issue to be discussed with the prescibing doctor. Medical advice should not be taken from strangers on the internet, no matter how well-intentioned.

In reply to captainfire576: flip this on it's head. Should patients taking prescribed anti depressents go climbing?

In reply to 3leggeddog:

That's an interesting question. I have been prescribed SSRI's over many years(specifically Paroxetine- I agree with previous poster about withdrawal symptoms from this) and never thought about their use in connection with climbing. Just felt they allowed me to feel "normal"! Perhaps it's as well that I never really progressed beyond seconding, so risk-taking behaviours did not have dire consequences!

In reply to 3leggeddog:


although i am a lapsed climber being back on prozac i wouldn't feel exactly good about leading as i know all too well that in the past they have effected how i think/behave

In reply to 3leggeddog:

I think once things settle its fine, but it might not be the best idea in the first few weeks on a new prescription unless its with a partner that knows about it and is able to assess and take control of the situation. I didn't realise how out of it I was at the time, but looking back, I really shouldn't have been driving the first week or so.

In reply to captainfire576:

Best anti-deperesant I know is climbing. It improves my psychological performance in all other aspects of my life.

In reply to captainfire576:

Bit late for this thread, but what the hell.

Much of this has already been said, but I thought I would pass on my experiences too.

I have settled on prozac (fluoxetine), but have tried four or five other anti depressants in the past. They had various effects which were undesirable for me until I tried the prozac. One made me very short-tempered and aggressive. Another made me eat compulsively (and gain nearly 2 stone before I stopped taking it). Coming off them abruptly (yes, I know ...) caused some unpleasant effects (brain zaps etc.) The prozac helps me, and at 20mg a day (40mg if I am having a bad time) is good. 40mg every day made me anxious.

As for the effect on climbing, I find that I now lack the adrenaline surge I used to get from scary situations. After a near miss I used to get the shakes, but now I get nothing. This helps me personally, as I used to be overly scared climbing, and I am now much calmer. Not risky, I don't think, but definitely have a better 'head'.

So in my case, (and that of someone's wife in an earlier post) I do find it helpful to my climbing. But this will probably vary a great deal from person to person, and from drug to drug. The 'must eat' drug (Mirtazapine, I think it was) would clearly be counter-productive

Rug

In reply to captainfire576:

I would like to reply anonymously to this thread but that function has been disabled.