/ Complementing Women/Steet Harrasment/Great Bit Of Writing..

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Timmd on 04 May 2013
wintertree - on 04 May 2013
In reply to Timmd:

I was going to comment on the progressive feminist atheist view but I wouldn't want to fluster sensitive souls.

So I will just add that as a piece of writing, it leaves a lot to be desired.
thepeaks - on 04 May 2013
In reply to Timmd: I sometimes wonder how some of the women climbers on here feel when people post comments on their appearance on their user profiles? And DFBWGC on the other channel?
Timmd on 04 May 2013
In reply to wintertree:
> (In reply to Timmd)
>
> I was going to comment on the progressive feminist atheist view but I wouldn't want to fluster sensitive souls.

I'm sure people will survive you posting your opinion to be fair.

> So I will just add that as a piece of writing, it leaves a lot to be desired.

How so?

Can be a tad difficult to understand an opinion without knowing the logic behind it. People may just wonder what you're waffling on about.

Expand away, it was the motive for starting the thread...
Dauphin - on 04 May 2013
In reply to thepeaks:

ditto

D
TheDrunkenBakers - on 04 May 2013
In reply to thepeaks:
> (In reply to Timmd) I sometimes wonder how some of the women climbers on here feel when people post comments on their appearance on their user profiles? And DFBWGC on the other channel?

Then lets ask them.

Personally, speaking as a male, i would be flattered. Cant say how i would feel if i had received plenty of unwanted attention. Mars and Venue, eh.

Timmd on 04 May 2013
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
> (In reply to thepeaks)
> [...]
>
> Then lets ask them.
>
> Personally, speaking as a male, i would be flattered. Cant say how i would feel if i had received plenty of unwanted attention. Mars and Venue, eh.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/brutereason/2012/10/14/on-men-who-think-street-harassment-would-be-aweso...

As if by magic, a web link appeared. (:-))
Tony Naylor on 04 May 2013
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
> Cant say how i would feel if i had received plenty of unwanted attention. Mars and Venue, eh.

I went to a venue once. A bit disappointing, when you consider I was aiming at Venus. I think my spaceship needs a new spell checker.
TheDrunkenBakers - on 04 May 2013
In reply to Tony Naylor:
> (In reply to TheDrunkenBakers)
> [...]
>
> I went to a venue once. A bit disappointing, when you consider I was aiming at Venus. I think my spaceship needs a new spell checker.

Oops, didnt spot that one. Ipad typing not so good.

TheDrunkenBakers - on 04 May 2013
In reply to Timmd:
> (In reply to TheDrunkenBakers)
> [...]
>
> http://freethoughtblogs.com/brutereason/2012/10/14/on-men-who-think-street-harassment-would-be-aweso...
>
> As if by magic, a web link appeared. (:-))

Hmm, thats a good blog and i totally understand
Jim C - on 04 May 2013
In reply to Timmd:

I have 3 daughter's in their twenties,and it appears to me that if some young 'fit' guy was to compliment them on their appearance they would be flattered and would be telling all their friends.

If an old ugly bloke like me complimented them in exactly the same way they would be thinking of calling the police.

The problem is that too many old fat ugly blokes, think they look young and 'fit'


Timmd on 04 May 2013
In reply to Jim C:

Your daughters may be lucky in having had a nice enough time of being female that they'd think it's great and tell their friends?

I think a work friend ( I say work but I volunteer) wouldn't like it to be honest. She was in an abusive relationship in her mid teens, which has left her wary of a hidden side to men she doesn't know so well.

I managed to put my foot in it by figuring that out for myself (that she's wary of a hidden side) and verbalising my thoughts, as it happens, with it being 9 years ago it took me aback a little how raw and personal it still is. It explained a lot, how she reacted.

The point of the blog in the OP is that men can't know how women will feel. Which is a valid one even if the guy giving their approval is young and fit.
thepeaks - on 04 May 2013
In reply to thepeaks: To be fair, I have just seen that DFBWGC has been binned though there was some toy throwing afterwards.
Timmd on 04 May 2013
In reply to Timmd:
> (In reply to Jim C)
>
> I managed to put my foot in it by figuring that out for myself (that she's wary of a hidden side) and verbalising my thoughts, as it happens, with it being 9 years ago it took me aback a little how raw and personal it still is. It explained a lot, how she reacted.

Actually, I wasn't that insensitive, I mentioned i'd been thinking that one could become wary.

marsbar - on 04 May 2013
In reply to thepeaks: I think it would be interesting to see how many female posters compared to males don't have photos on here. I don't want random strangers judging my appearance so why would put a photo on
Elaine Budden - on 04 May 2013
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
> Then lets ask them.

I have seen comments about female UKC users and their profile pics and if they'd "get it".

Personally i dont like it. Some enjoy attention in this manner but the majority dont.

People of any gender shouldnt be talked about as if they were an object there to be judged. Then again i wouldnt put up any pictures on here i didnt want anyone to see.

Subtle attention or comments from friends is nice but drunk guys leering or strangers on an online forum commenting makes you feel a little edgy.

Elaine
Blue Straggler - on 04 May 2013
In reply to wintertree:
>
>
> So I will just add that as a piece of writing, it leaves a lot to be desired.

It would be improved a lot by her simply not using those awful "Here's the thing." and "Look" prefixes to announce that the following paragraph is REALLY IMPORTANT AND CLEVER.

I'm surprised that "Here's the thing" is not on that many bullshit-bingo cards.

Blue Straggler - on 04 May 2013
In reply to Timmd:

It's "complimenting".
Alyson - on 04 May 2013
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
> (In reply to thepeaks)
> [...]
>
> Then lets ask them.
>
> Personally, speaking as a male, i would be flattered. Cant say how i would feel if i had received plenty of unwanted attention. Mars and Venue, eh.

I would say around 75% of random 'street' compliments feel threatening, and more than half of the ones which make me feel uncomfortable lead to me being shouted at further, or followed. It isn't pleasant and it doesn't make you feel good. You say that as a male you'd be flattered, but as a male you've probably never been followed by a stranger determined to tell you what he wants to put in your mouth.

Being complimented online feels much less overtly threatening, though I know there are females on here who've been the victim of cyber-stalking/harrassment so I don't want to say that too lightly. If you don't know the person at all and haven't bothered trying to get to know them in any way then telling them they have a fantastic figure is a bit weird. What would be your motivation for doing it?
Tom V - on 04 May 2013
In reply to Blue Straggler:
>
>
> I'm surprised that "Here's the thing" is not on that many bullshit-bingo cards.

Absolutely.

Alyson - on 04 May 2013
If I've made it sound like I get loads of compliments then I've not represented myself very well btw.
Elaine Budden - on 04 May 2013
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
>
> Then lets ask them.
>
> Personally, speaking as a male, i would be flattered. Cant say how i would feel if i had received plenty of unwanted attention. Mars and Venue, eh.

Here's an idea you would be flattered i supose if a woman commented on you but i doubt you find a woman intimidating...

What if it was a large male who could in theory be a threat? Would you be just as flattered?
marsbar - on 05 May 2013
marsbar - on 05 May 2013
thepeaks - on 05 May 2013
In reply to Timmd: I really am embarrassed to be a male sometimes - totally unacceptable.
r0x0r.wolfo - on 05 May 2013
In reply to Timmd: I don't comment on women in the streets nor do I care about their plight of feeling uncomfortable. I'm certaintly not going to change my actions or lack of on the off chance someone has been sexually assaulted. "Have you got the time" sometimes leads to a good mugging/battering, grow some skin
Timmd on 05 May 2013
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo: Interesting response, i've got plenty of skin.

Rob Exile Ward on 05 May 2013
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo: 'nor do I care about their plight of feeling uncomfortable.'

I think that tells us all we need know.
marsbar - on 05 May 2013
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo: I don't understand your reply. If you don't comment on women in the street then no one is asking you to change that. As for not caring about how people feel, that is sad, but its your prerogative. Perhaps if in future it is your girlfriend or sister or friend or daughter, then you might understand. There is more to it than feeling uncomfortable. It isn't acceptable to me that a 14 year old girl won't go out alone because adult males comment on her body.
Timmd on 05 May 2013
In reply to marsbar: I had a thought he perhaps ment he's not going to feel guilty if he's not doing anything wrong?

It is put in quite a blunt and unfriendly way, though.
marsbar - on 05 May 2013
In reply to Timmd:

Pretty awful writing style, which detracts from what is an point - that it is impossible to predict the effect of anything unsolicited. It is the responsibility of the giver, not the recipient, to ensure that comments would be welcome ...

Mr Marsbar too lazy to log her out and log in myself...
anonymouse - on 05 May 2013
In reply to marsbar:
I think you need to think about that statement for a while.
stroppygob - on 05 May 2013
In reply to Timmd:

The article in the OP is such a load of ****. The author lectures us on our own psychology, and tells us off for doing something which only a frustrated spotty adolescent may do in a fit of madness. Does she actually think that said spotty oaf would actually bother to read her blog?


It cannot be based on real life experience, as she includes a photo of herself.

Just another feminist whine about imaginary slights against women.

A load of old tosh.
stroppygob - on 05 May 2013
In reply to Timmd:

Also...

Sarah Ditum; "I don't want to hear how sexy – or not – I look when I'm running, thanks."

You're on a winner with the former request love.
Alyson - on 05 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob: Thank you for giving your opinion on the appearance of both writers. How thrillingly relevant. Yes, this changes everything.
red.stiletto - on 05 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:
I wonder why all the men who have posted here and "would never dream of giving a woman an unsolicited comment on the street" are so irritated by a blog which is anti men giving women unsolicited comments on the street? None of the women seem to be.
Sir Chasm - on 05 May 2013
In reply to red.stiletto: Perhaps some men don't like the generalised approach "It seems that men are finally starting to realize that many women do not like street harassment", is that all men? No men realized that before? The men that didn't realize are now starting to realize? All men used to harass women in the street?
Alyson - on 05 May 2013
In reply to Sir Chasm: Yes I understand that and it grates on me too. It's an unfair generalisation that only serves to make all male readers feel a little defensive.
stroppygob - on 05 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:

Saves time doesn't it? These generalised whinges against men (unspecified,) lecturing us about not doing what most of us would never dream of doing in the first place, are just odd.

If you want to lecture us on what bad people we are for being such sexist pigs as to do things which we have (never)done, then why should we not play up to those stereotypes you foist on us?

Back in t’kitchen lass, bring me my tea.
Elaine Budden - on 05 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob: She never said all men are like that. If you read the thread someone asked what female users thought and she replied. In fact i commented before she did saying a similar thing.

We know the majority of men are decent and wouldnt treat girls like this but sadly there are exceptions.

Also by the title of the thread you mustve known what you were about to read so why even read the lecture 'about not doing what most of us would never dream of doing in the first place'.

Stereotypes have arisen from a number of men acting that way, i highly doubt 'playing up to those' is going to help anybody.
stroppygob - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Elaine Budden:
> Also by the title of the thread you mustve known what you were about to read so why even read the lecture 'about not doing what most of us would never dream of doing in the first place'.

Due to me enjoying the vapid inanity of most feminist nonsense, this was an early morning chuckle for me.

> Stereotypes have arisen from a number of men acting that way, i highly doubt 'playing up to those' is going to help anybody.

Well if "men" are accused of stating they find women "hot' by these oafs, the damage is already done. They have stereotyped men.

Funny isn’t it, and I find myself being more and more convinced over the correctness of this idea, that those "lefty-feminist" types seek to end discrimination/stereotyping of women, by... errmmmmm... stereotyping and discriminating men.

Timmd on 06 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:
> (In reply to Timmd)
>
> The article in the OP is such a load of ****. The author lectures us on our own psychology, and tells us off for doing something which only a frustrated spotty adolescent may do in a fit of madness. Does she actually think that said spotty oaf would actually bother to read her blog?
>
>
> It cannot be based on real life experience, as she includes a photo of herself.
>
> Just another feminist whine about imaginary slights against women.
>
> A load of old tosh.

What makes you think there's an imaginary element? An attractive girl in my class at school once commented on feeling like being treated like a piece of meat. I'd be very surprised if she's never had comments made about her by male strangers in the street.

In fact thinking about it, some builders spring to mind who I remember commenting on women walking past.

So there you go, it's not imaginary after all. Just fancy that. Said classmate had a random bloke start to lick her neck on the bus, but hopefully that's pretty rare.

Timmd on 06 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:
> (In reply to Timmd)


> Just another feminist whine about imaginary slights against women.
>
> A load of old tosh.

http://melbourne.ihollaback.org/

....
I live near the beach which is great except that summer tends to bring out a lot of dudes in cars which means that generally I get whistled and yelled at often when I’m just out walking maybe two blocks from my house (this has been going on since I was 14, I’m 20 now). I was getting so sick of the way it made me feel that I went searching on the internet to see if anyone else felt the same anger and frustration, that’s when I stumbled on Hollaback and after reading the stories I’d decided next time it happened I’d stand up for myself. I didn’t have to wait long, I went for a walk along the back beach near the time ball tower a couple days later, maybe 5 or 6pm and I’d just thrown on whatever was on my floor, a green shirt and red shortish skirt (which looked terrible with my short bright blue hair, but I just wanted to listen to some music and go for a stroll). A lot of people cruise around this road and a big 4 wheel drive started heading my way with a couple guys in it, about 23-25, I partially missed what they yelled at first, I had my headphones on. But when they pulled up about 2 metres away they said “close your legs ya slut!” which is kind of hard when you have to move your legs to walk. So I flipped them off and pulled a face at them to take back some kind of power, he laughed in a taken aback way and finished off with a “No f*ck you, you blue haired f*ck!”. Although I was still angry he’d ruined the calm of my walk, for once I felt like I’d defended myself, in a small way but it made me feel less like a victim.
....

I'm still stuck on this word imaginary.

r0x0r.wolfo - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Timmd:Yes, in essence. Just everyone keep their head down and say nothing, who knows who's been mistreated in what way. Actually I won't talk to any woman in the street, as afterall there is too much 'baggage' and history of gender discrimination, regardless of my own intentions or actions. 

My girlfriends problem with the article is that it makes all women out the be feeble and weak, and how can one woman claim to know what is happening in every other woman's mind. You can't go through life thinking, "what if he's going to stalk me afterwards", if someone pays you a compliment just say "thanks" and get on with your day. There are more important things to be thinking about and getting on with. "Where did you even find an article about this" she said.
stroppygob - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Timmd:

Did you actually write that blog yourself Timmd? Your posts here are very simmilar in linguistic style to the blog.

Alyson - on 06 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:
> (In reply to Alyson)
>
> Saves time doesn't it? These generalised whinges against men (unspecified,) lecturing us about not doing what most of us would never dream of doing in the first place, are just odd.

I would have thought the author would struggle to be specific about the men she's referring to. I very much doubt she stops and asks for names and addresses. But just because it isn't all men doesn't mean it isn't a problem, and therefore there's nothing odd about wanting to discuss it. I just think she should be careful not to generalise from 'the type of man who would do this' to 'men'.
>
> If you want to lecture us on what bad people we are for being such sexist pigs as to do things which we have (never)done, then why should we not play up to those stereotypes you foist on us?

I don't understand that attitude to be honest. What do you gain by 'playing up' to being a sexist pig and how does that then distinguish you from a sexist pig? If you go through life demeaning women then say 'I'm just playing up to a stereotype', all you're really doing is reinforcing the stereotype.
>
> Back in t’kitchen lass, bring me my tea.

You're fat enough already dear.
stroppygob - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:

That's a lovely reply, thanks Alyson.

Can I ask you, do you think it's a "great bit of writing"? To be honest I think it's a crap bit of writing which serves both men and women badly, it's divisive and meaningless.

Back to you dear. ;-)
anonymouse - on 06 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:
> Can I ask you, do you think it's a "great bit of writing"? To be honest I think it's a crap bit of writing which serves both men and women badly, it's divisive and meaningless.

I'm not sure it's possible to be both.
Frank the Husky - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Timmd: It isn't a great bit if writing at all. It's convoluted, long winded and makes far too many asumptions. At the very least a great bit of writing needs a start, middle and end, and this really just blends into one long sermon. I have tried to read it three times and have still not go to the end. She could have said all this far more effectively in 800 words or under, not the 1800 that she currently graces us with.
anonymouse - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Frank the Husky:
It's interesting that you haven't got to the end, but still know that it could have been written more succinctly. Full marks for clairvoyance.
wintertree - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Timmd:

> Expand away, it was the motive for starting the thread...

> Expand away, it was the motive for starting the thread...

Merging both posted articles (the original and the runner) into one, here is my take:

1) In both cases the problem is people calling out something to a stranger, and the stranger taking offence or being given fear by it.

2) This is not a gender issue - a bloke running or cycling round here is quite likely to get "witty' comments from some people, and abuse hurled at them from others. Sometimes it's even comments on appearance from girls. [1] Likewise, ask a guy with a ponytail, or anyone who dresses as an emo/goth, about the abuse they get on the streets in some places. In all cases, some members of society give a lot of verbal that they probably consider to be the highlight of witty banter, but however this has an effect ranging from annoyance to outright fear on the receiver.

One could succinctly address this with the blog post "Do not address person(s) unknown to yourself outside the bounds of customary civility as your words may have an effect other/worse than you imagine" but instead the author turns it into 25 paragraphs of rambling tosh with more than a hint of preconceived bias along gender lines.

One almost suspects that their primary motivation is to satisfy some deep seated need for their opinions to be validated by the replies form like minded progressive feminist atheists. I haven't trawled through the hundreds of replies to the blog post, but I can imagine what they're like.

[1] Once (highlight of my day) a pair of young ladies even told me I looked "well sexy" when I went running past. So I guess these means that I can take offence, and my views cannot be discounted along the usual lines that I am a bloke.
Snoweider - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Timmd:

Can't believe you are trying to have this discussion on here! I'm sure last time this was discussed there was a predictable row that went along the lines of:

Most female posters "Doh, this stuff is obvious, of course its unpleasant harassment and I don't like having to put up with it"

Most male posters "You are stereotyping me/being over sensitive/go make the tea"

I think the article is appallingly written but the points it raises are valid.
Elaine Budden - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Snoweider: I agree with this 100%
tlm - on 06 May 2013
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> Personally, speaking as a male, i would be flattered.

How would you feel about a man, who was bigger and stronger than you, giving you a compliment on your appearance with an obvious sexual interest?

I think that is a fairer comparison, because there is that imbalance of physical power, and also, because many women don't have a lack of male sexual interest, so male sexual interest can end up being a nuisance, rather than a treat.

I personally feel that the originally article is very sad, and that MORE men who have no underlying agenda should complement ALL people (both male and female) so that the pesky pests who aren't very nice get more diluted. I'd like to teach the birds to sing, in perfect harmony, in fact.
tlm - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Timmd:

> So there you go, it's not imaginary after all. Just fancy that. Said classmate had a random bloke start to lick her neck on the bus, but hopefully that's pretty rare.

Not really. I had a random stranger put his penis in my mouth (well, against my lips - my mouth was closed as were my eyes) when I was lying on a sofa in a pub one day.

I've also had a random person grab my breast as they walked past me. Most women I know have also experienced similar things, by odd, weird mental people....

Frank the Husky - on 06 May 2013
In reply to anonymouse:
> (In reply to Frank the Husky)
> It's interesting that you haven't got to the end, but still know that it could have been written more succinctly. Full marks for clairvoyance.

...and why did I not get to the end of this drawl? Because it is not written succinctly enough. More succinct writing means people want to get to the end, instead of making them feel like they're wading through the same stuff written in several different ways.

krikoman - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Timmd: I knew this would end up on here and I predicted the results too!!

That Sarah Ditum article, why mixed everything together surely there's a massive difference between "Keep it up, love!", "You look great!" and some of the other things shouted.

I can see that it might be threatening, but also isn't it the way things are perceived and you're reaction to it.

I've been called a Geordie bastard and laughed it off.

I've met two girlfriends by telling them they looked sexy and one who I asked what do you think of sex. All a bit dodgy things to say but we got talking and decided we liked each other enough to have a couple of years relationship.

Isn’t it time women started being strong and not take offence at everything. I got a nasty look from some bitch ‘cos I held the door for her recently, I’d have done the same for a bloke, because I have manners.

Some massive generalisations her but is this any worse than the original article?

Obviously people should not feel threatened on the streets but surely the fear of upsetting someone shouldn't stop you talking to people in the street.
krikoman - on 06 May 2013
In reply to tlm:
> (In reply to Timmd)
>
> [...]
>
> Not really. I had a random stranger put his penis in my mouth (well, against my lips - my mouth was closed as were my eyes) when I was lying on a sofa in a pub one day.
>

Laying on a pub sofa with your eyes shut during the day!!

How decadent!!

You should have bitten it.
Alyson - on 06 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:
> (In reply to Alyson)
>
> That's a lovely reply, thanks Alyson.
>
> Can I ask you, do you think it's a "great bit of writing"? To be honest I think it's a crap bit of writing which serves both men and women badly, it's divisive and meaningless.
>
> Back to you dear. ;-)

I don't think it's a great bit of writing, but it isn't meaningless. I wouldn't dismiss anyone's thoughts on their own experiences in life as meaningless. Presumably she doesn't - as I don't - get yelled at randomly by strange women, so examining why some men do this has relevance although she could have done it a lot better. I agree she creates division with her generalisations.

You said what is the point in discussing something which only spotty adolescents do, but then you felt the need to give your own opinion on her appearance, as well as on that of another writer who'd been linked to. I find it quite funny that you engage in the very behaviour you're claiming to never do. You're not an adolescent so that must make you massively spotty; I'm picturing some kind of measles warning campaign poster.

(FWIW it's not spotty adolescents, it's inadequate grown men who are by far the worst offenders. Probably the same ones who yell abuse at male cyclists because they, too, make them feel inadequate.)
Alyson - on 06 May 2013
In reply to krikoman:
>
> I've met two girlfriends by telling them they looked sexy and one who I asked what do you think of sex.

Ha! That made me chuckle. Was 'what do you think of sex?' your opening question? In the context of a street harrassment discussion I'm sort of imagining you asking some girl in the bus queue :)
ads.ukclimbing.com
thepeaks - on 06 May 2013
In reply to krikoman: "surely the fear of upsetting someone shouldn't stop you talking to people in the street."

No but surely it should stop one making sexual comments to random women on the street?
stroppygob - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> (In reply to stroppygob)


> You said what is the point in discussing something which only spotty adolescents do, but then you felt the need to give your own opinion on her appearance, as well as on that of another writer who'd been linked to. I find it quite funny that you engage in the very behaviour you're claiming to never do. You're not an adolescent so that must make you massively spotty;

LOL!! Touche, nicely put.

I was deliberately playing up to the very stereotype I was describing as a way of emphasising the point I was making, (I think you know this.)

I can do "inadequate grown man" too if you like, but I draw the line at spotty.

But, why does it have to be " inadequate grown men"? I do not think it does. It can be grown men who know no better, who have been brought up in a culture where this is acceptable, it can be low intelligence or mentally ill men too. It could be men who have been dominated by women all their life and are taking a chance to express themselves. It can be done in ways which are intended as complimentary, even if it is not received as such. It can be done in a friendly way. It doesn't have to be only done by " inadequate grown men," at all.

As has been said, the author has taken it upon herself to define what women want/think/feel, and how men should act/think/feel.

The gym I use has many fit and healthy young women, (praise the lord it makes exercise so much more pleasant,) many of them love compliments from other gym members. A lesbian couple I'm friendly with love hearing from men how attractive and hot and fit they are, even when those men do not know they are on the other bus.


Blue Straggler - on 06 May 2013
winhill - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Snoweider:
> (In reply to Timmd)
>
> I think the article is appallingly written but the points it raises are valid.

I think this is maybe the different between the way women see it and men see it.

I don't see many valid points, but the women seem to think that if she talks about her experience and feelings that somehow makes it valid.

But this is validity in a huggy way, not a logical way.

When she says "My take on chatting up women you don’t know is pretty simple: in most cases, don’t." I can't even how you could make the claim that it is 'valid' because she's just expressing a (fairly strange IMO) opinion, it cannot be valid in a recognised sense but her expression of it could be valid in a huggy way. If she then tried to make a claim that chatting up a woman you didn't know was sexual harassment, that could be tested for validity, although it would change the Friday Night Saturday Morning experience somewhat. But then she contradicts herself by saying that "there are social contexts in which it’s appropriate to just start talking to a total stranger: bars, parties, other places where people go in order to meet people. Places where, if someone doesn’t want to talk to you anymore, they can just leave."

I would guess she says this so as not to kill off the US dating scene that she is ensconced in but I would have said that if a bloke drove a woman out of a bar by being persistently over familiar, that would be sexual harassment.

So she creates an overly strict definition of sexual harassment and stranger etiquette and then produces some bizarre exceptionalism, for presumably local cultural reasons.

So it's not valid as it's self contradictory.
r0x0r.wolfo - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tlm:
> (In reply to Timmd)
>
> [...]
>
> Not really. I had a random stranger put his penis in my mouth (well, against my lips - my mouth was closed as were my eyes) when I was lying on a sofa in a pub one day.
>
> I've also had a random person grab my breast as they walked past me. Most women I know have also experienced similar things, by odd, weird mental people....

I would call that sexual assualt, are you saying most women you know have been sexually assualted? Therefore most women are/have been sexually assaulted? 
Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:
> I was deliberately playing up to the very stereotype I was describing as a way of emphasising the point I was making, (I think you know this.)

So in order to dispell something as a stereotype you live up to it? That doesn't so much emphasise a point as contradict it but I think you know this.

Now you've gone from 'it's only spotty adolescents who do this' to 'it's grown men who aren't inadequate but... <insert reason for said inadequacy here>'. This idea that it can be meant as complimentary even if it's not taken as such is silly and missing the point. Maybe the bloke shouting "nice legs love" across the street is doing so because he thinks I have nice legs but it is irrelevant compared to the bigger point that he thinks I should care about his opinion. That's why I suspect he'll be the same person who thinks as little of saying something rude/abusive to a stranger as something supposedly complimentary. It's a fairly aggressive way of interacting with the world. To some degree we probably all walk round idly thinking 'ooh, too fat... bad outfit... ffs stop smoking near your child... nice shoes.... wow, lovely hair... mmm, he's hot' etc but we don't feel the need to express all these casual passing thoughts to the strangers we're thinking them about.

> The gym I use has many fit and healthy young women... many of them love compliments from other gym members.

THIS is proper funny. Are you honestly trying to tell me you have had some approximation of the following conversation with a complete stranger:

Stroppygob: Hey, you have a great ass!
Hot female: Wow, thanks very much.
Stroppygob: You're welcome.
Hot female: I love it when a stranger tells me how gorgeous I am, or singles out a particular part of my anatomy for attention.
Stroppygob: That is in no way shallow or sad. I'm glad to have validated your existence with my unsolicited comment.
(High fives all round)
Hot female: So what do you think of my boobs?
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:
> (In reply to tlm)
> [...]
>
> I would call that sexual assault, are you saying most women you know have been sexually assaulted? Therefore most women are/have been sexually assaulted? 

Probably - especially if you count flashing. Most times I've been 'sexually assaulted' I've probably forgotten about by now, as it happens such a lot and feels pretty trivial at the time...

tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:

> Stroppygob: Hey, you have a great ass!
> Hot female: Wow, thanks very much.
> Stroppygob: You're welcome.
> Hot female: I love it when a stranger tells me how gorgeous I am, or singles out a particular part of my anatomy for attention.
> Stroppygob: That is in no way shallow or sad. I'm glad to have validated your existence with my unsolicited comment.
> (High fives all round)
> Hot female: So what do you think of my boobs?

Stroppygob is trying to be Barney from How I met your mother, isn't he? He thinks 'the book' is real life...

Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tlm: Ha! Legend...



...(wait for it)...




... DARY!
:)
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:

The thing is, I'm quite big, strong and brave. I was trying to imagine under what circumstances someone just randomly coming up to me and saying something about my appearance would feel uncreepy... I think even if it was a woman I would think they were a bit touched if that was the only thing they said... Why would someone ever want to do such a thing eh?
Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tlm: “Okay, pep talk! You can do this, but to be more accurate, you probably can't. You're way out of practice and she's way too hot for you. So, remember, it's not about scoring. It's about believing you can do it, even though you probably can't. Go get 'em, tiger!”


(I love HIMYM.)
Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tlm:
> (In reply to Alyson)
>
> Why would someone ever want to do such a thing eh?

Because they are a man and what they think is of huge importance, and if we find it creepy or unsettling that's our problem not theirs and we're being too 'huggy' (apparently) and are probably frigid anyway. Fo shiz.
stroppygob - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> (In reply to stroppygob)
> [...]
>
> So in order to dispell something as a stereotype you live up to it? That doesn't so much emphasise a point as contradict it but I think you know this.

Who said I was "trying to dispel it"? I was playing up to it for comic effect,.


>
> Now you've gone from 'it's only spotty adolescents who do this' to 'it's grown men who aren't inadequate but... <insert reason for said inadequacy here>'. This idea that it can be meant as complimentary even if it's not taken as such is silly and missing the point. Maybe the bloke shouting "nice legs love" across the street is doing so because he thinks I have nice legs but it is irrelevant compared to the bigger point that he thinks I should care about his opinion. That's why I suspect he'll be the same person who thinks as little of saying something rude/abusive to a stranger as something supposedly complimentary. It's a fairly aggressive way of interacting with the world. To some degree we probably all walk round idly thinking 'ooh, too fat... bad outfit... ffs stop smoking near your child... nice shoes.... wow, lovely hair... mmm, he's hot' etc but we don't feel the need to express all these casual passing thoughts to the strangers we're thinking them about.


Some do, some don't.

> THIS is proper funny. Are you honestly trying to tell me you have had some approximation of the following conversation with a complete stranger:
>
> Stroppygob: Hey, you have a great ass!
> Hot female: Wow, thanks very much.
> Stroppygob: You're welcome.
> Hot female: I love it when a stranger tells me how gorgeous I am, or singles out a particular part of my anatomy for attention.
> Stroppygob: That is in no way shallow or sad. I'm glad to have validated your existence with my unsolicited comment.
> (High fives all round)
> Hot female: So what do you think of my boobs?

Errrmmm... no, if I'd have done that I'd have said so, all I was saying is that some women appreciate comments on how good they look.
Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:
> (In reply to Alyson)
> [...]
>
> Who said I was "trying to dispel it"? I was playing up to it for comic effect,.

You said you were 'emphasising' your point. But contradiction isn't emphasis.

> Some do,
Yes, the inadequate minority
> some don't.
Yes, the well-adjusted majority

> Errrmmm... no, if I'd have done that I'd have said so, all I was saying is that some women appreciate comments on how good they look.

How do you know? If that conversation never happened, if they haven't told you they appreciate the shallow compliment from a complete stranger, how do you know they like it?
r0x0r.wolfo - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tlm:
> (In reply to r0x0r.wolfo)
> [...]
>
> Probably - especially if you count flashing. Most times I've been 'sexually assaulted' I've probably forgotten about by now, as it happens such a lot and feels pretty trivial at the time...

I'd think I would remember myself. So you and most people you know have been assaulted, where are you from?
Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tlm: I've been thinking it should be possible to compliment a stranger without it seeming slightly odd or creepy but I actually can't come up with a way. If you're interested in someone, the approach of 'Hi, my name's Jake*, I was wondering whether I could buy you a drink/take you for a coffee... ' doesn't really need a '...because you have such a pretty face' section inserting. If anything, that would be offputting.

If you're not interested in getting to know them, then why would you just pay a compliment and walk away? Yes, it's always odd.


(*In my scenario, Jake Gyllenhaal is asking me)
r0x0r.wolfo - on 07 May 2013
The men on this thread think that bumping into a girl in the street and saying "wow you're pretty" doesn't constitute sexual harassment. Why everyone is talking about ironclad examples of harassment and abuse is beyond me. A girl getting raped or flashed has nothing to do with complimenting strangers...

No one is denying that people do horrible things to eachother, but we are asking if complimenting a stranger is one of those things.
Milesy - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> (*In my scenario, Jake Gyllenhaal is asking me)

Can you not see a certain irony here that you are talking about a popular man who is well known for his physical appearance?
r0x0r.wolfo - on 07 May 2013
If someone said "hi I'm jake, I just wanted to tell you you have nice eyes", does it matter if they walk away or try to hook up with you? One is creepy one is not?

Does 'odd' require a blanket ban?
Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Milesy: I wouldn't walk up to him in the street and say 'I think you're really hot' because that would be weird. As that's the kind of behaviour being discussed I don't see much irony. As far as I have seen, nobody is arguing that finding someone attractive should be outlawed.
ads.ukclimbing.com
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:
> (In reply to tlm)
> [...]
>
> I'd think I would remember myself. So you and most people you know have been assaulted, where are you from?

I'm originally from Reading, but have lived in Oxford, Wallingford, Northampton and Stoke.
It depends what you call assult, doesn't it? That wasn't my own word. How many women have had an unasked for grope in a nightclub, been flashed etc. I really wouldn't remember every grope from 20 years ago - much more exciting things than that have filled up my memory...

Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo: Both creepy. If someone chats you up and makes an effort to get to know you, it's kind of obvious they find you attractive. If they open with 'Hi, I find you/your eyes/your face attractive' that's always going to feel creepy. Sorry.
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> (In reply to tlm) I've been thinking it should be possible to compliment a stranger without it seeming slightly odd or creepy but I actually can't come up with a way.

I thought it would feel uncreepy if first of all, you were around someone for a bit first (waiting in a queue or something) and there was a bit of eye contact, smiling and then the comment/chit chat was something innocuous, such as about the weather first. I think after a bit of a warm up like that, if someone then said "I must say, your hair is the shiniest hair I've ever seen - what shampoo do you use?" it wouldn't seem too creepy.
owlart - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Timmd: Could someone maybe clarify, if approaching a woman in the street to compliment them is classed as sexual harassement (and therefore presumably illegal), is it ok to pass a compliment to someone you're already interacting with, eg. someone on a checkout, waiter etc. and comment that you like the colour of their nails, or they have a particularly nice top on or whatever?
Blue Straggler - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tlm:
> "I must say, your hair is the shiniest hair I've ever seen - what shampoo do you use?" it wouldn't seem too creepy.

How about "your hair smells lovely - what shampoo do you use?"

tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:
> If someone said "hi I'm jake, I just wanted to tell you you have nice eyes", does it matter if they walk away or try to hook up with you? One is creepy one is not?

I think it is the fact that someone wants to comment about what you look like without bothering to get to know you in any way at all. I mean - I could be a right nutter and they want to tell me I have nice eyes? They've been looking at my eyes (and by inference at other parts of my body) without me realising? Sorry mate, that is a bit creepy! Why not just say something like "nice weather". That is far better...

tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> How about "your hair smells lovely - what shampoo do you use?"

*runs.... FAST*

Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to owlart: It would be an odd woman indeed who felt sexually harrassed by you saying you liked her nail varnish. I think you're safe on that one :)
owlart - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson: Although tlm's 11.17 post would appear to suggest they disagree with you.
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to owlart:
> (In reply to Alyson) Although tlm's 11.17 post would appear to suggest they disagree with you.

I don't know - nail varnish is:

1. Very far away from my personal bits.
2. Not actually a part of me.

I would also assume that any man complimenting me on my nail varnish would not have a sexual interest in me as a woman.

r0x0r.wolfo - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tlm:
> (In reply to r0x0r.wolfo)
> [...]
>
> I think it is the fact that someone wants to comment about what you look like without bothering to get to know you in any way at all. I mean - I could be a right nutter and they want to tell me I have nice eyes? They've been looking at my eyes (and by inference at other parts of my body) without me realising? Sorry mate, that is a bit creepy! Why not just say something like "nice weather". That is far better...

Yes you could be a nutter, but so could lot of people we think we know, or have already interacted with. Its a risk we all take... lol. Its, ok to engage with a woman you like as long as its subtle is that right? "Its good manners to talk about the weather first".


Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to owlart: You're kind of paying a compliment to something she has done (paint her nails a snazzy colour, choose a flattering top) rather than something she has genetically inherited (symmetrical features, pert breasts). It's a different category of comment.
owlart - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tlm:
> I would also assume that any man complimenting me on my nail varnish would not have a sexual interest in me as a woman.

Could you explain this bit? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

> Yes you could be a nutter, but so could lot of people we think we know, or have already interacted with. Its a risk we all take... lol. Its, ok to engage with a woman you like as long as its subtle is that right? "Its good manners to talk about the weather first".

No - just be interested in a person, rather than a body. If you are only interested in a body and not the person, you will seem a bit creepy to me.

Bjartur i Sumarhus on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson: " It would be an odd woman indeed who felt sexually harrassed by you saying you liked her nail varnish"

Obviously you have never seen the US crime drama "Dexter" ;-)
MG - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> (In reply to owlart) You're kind of paying a compliment to something she has done (paint her nails a snazzy colour, choose a flattering top) rather than something she has genetically inherited (symmetrical features, pert breasts). It's a different category of comment.

Well one is a result of genetic accident and the other deliberate but at some level both are saying "you are sexually attractive" surely, which may or may not be harassing depending on the people and circumstances?
Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to MG: If a man - a complete stranger - took time out of his day to stop me and tell me he liked the colour of my fingernails or the cut of my top, I wouldn't think he was saying I was sexually attractive!
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to MG:

Everything is far subtler and context dependent than any text message on ukc could ever convey. However, I think the message behind the original article was that many men have the belief that thier particular subtle set of circumstances/actions is the exception to the rule, when it usually isn't.

Of course, it is always dependent on the people and circumstances. In 0.00001% of cases, the bloke will pull it off and come across as charming and delightful.

In 99.9999999% of cases, the woman will smile, and laugh as though it is delightful, while inside feeling a bit tense and worried about what is happening.

Most women want to be loved and cherished for who they are, rather than lusted after for what their bodies happen to be.

One is "you are delightfully artistic" and the other is "I would like to pleasure myself with your attractive assets".
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> (In reply to MG) If a man - a complete stranger - took time out of his day to stop me and tell me he liked the colour of my fingernails or the cut of my top, I wouldn't think he was saying I was sexually attractive!

I must say, I would, maybe very wrongly, simply assume that he was gay. I was going to say this earlier, but thought it was far too much of an assumption. But then, I have never, ever been told such things by any straight guy, in all my many aged years...

MG - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> (In reply to MG) If a man - a complete stranger - took time out of his day to stop me and tell me he liked the colour of my fingernails or the cut of my top, I wouldn't think he was saying I was sexually attractive!

OK - I think you might be mis-understanding some comments!

ads.ukclimbing.com
MG - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tlm:

> Of course, it is always dependent on the people and circumstances. In 0.00001% of cases, the bloke will pull it off and come across as charming and delightful.
>
> In 99.9999999% of cases, the woman will smile, and laugh as though it is delightful, while inside feeling a bit tense and worried about what is happening.
>


That would be my guess too. I certainly wouldn't comment on a women's appearance if I had never met her, any more than I would a man's. It would just be wierd. Really surprised Alyson finds it OK.
Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tlm:
> (In reply to Alyson)
> [...]
>
> I must say, I would, maybe very wrongly, simply assume that he was gay. I was going to say this earlier, but thought it was far too much of an assumption. But then, I have never, ever been told such things by any straight guy, in all my many aged years...

I'd think the same.
Rampikino - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Timmd:

I didn't find anything "progressive" about the blog whatsoever. It seemed to sink easily into the "talk to me and I reserve the right to sparay you with pepper spray and yell 'stalker' at the top of my voice."

Very progressive.

We live in society. People interact. Assisting in the building of barriers is NOT progressive.
Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tlm:
> (In reply to MG)
> One is "you are delightfully artistic" and the other is "I would like to pleasure myself with your attractive assets".

Nicely put :)

In reply to the thread:

This is a curious conversation in a lot of ways. I thought the original article somewhat limited in that it addressed a relatively small subset of men who probably wouldn't be reading it anyway. Perhaps the clumsy wording of it has got some hackles up, because I'm surprised at the disagreement it's provoked.

I am firmly convinced that the vast majority of you normal, funny, lovely, micro-fleece wearing, slightly rugged, UKC-reading chaps know the difference between sexual harrassment and chatting someone up. I'm sure you would all get to know somebody - be it online or in person - and get a feel for how well you're being received before declaring an admiration for the particular shape and size of their backsides.

I'm also sure you abhor the kind of behaviour which is really being discussed here. The man who calls out a random comment to a passing woman, then follows her down the street if she doesn't give a reaction. The man who makes lewd comments to teenage girls to the point where they feel anxious about walking alone, or apologetic for their own female shape which they can't help having. If we're getting into the nitty gritty of at what point in a conversation it's ok to pay a woman a compliment then it's safe to say you aren't engaging in that kind of behaviour at all.
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Rampikino:

> We live in society. People interact. Assisting in the building of barriers is NOT progressive.

I agree with this. It could have suggested alternatives - talking about something none threatening and innocuous. Why build fear? I like talking to strangers and do it all the time. And men and women aren't all that different when it comes down to it. We are all human and most people are pretty nice. It's the same sort of thing that means that people end up scared to hug children that aren't their own.

owlart - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tlm:
> (In reply to Alyson)
> [...]
>
> I must say, I would, maybe very wrongly, simply assume that he was gay. I was going to say this earlier, but thought it was far too much of an assumption. But then, I have never, ever been told such things by any straight guy, in all my many aged years...

Ah, I see, so because I said to someone that they had nice nails, that makes me gay? Thanks for telling me, I shall cease looking for a girlfriend immediately.
Rampikino - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:

Indeed Alyson.

I complement people at work - male or female, but very unlikely to do it in the street. However, if there was a circumstance where I felt I needed to compliment a total stranger I certainly wouldn't want some blogger to be tutting at me and hinting that I was somehow violating their human rights or something daft.

Most people, I find, are generally kind and genuine. I complimented a colleague on a piece of jewellery today. She reacted very well. Just because I know her it doesn't mean that a positive response was guaranteed.

If we spend our time trying to build up barriers between people for fear of the perceived offence then we will spend our lives never talking to anyone while a bunch of no-neck thug stalkers get on and do what they always do anyway.
owlart - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> (In reply to tlm)
> [...]
>
> I'd think the same.

Well, since you both agree, clearly I'm just very mistaken in my sexuality and will make the necessary adjustments straight away!
owlart - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> I am firmly convinced that the vast majority of you normal, funny, lovely, micro-fleece wearing, slightly rugged, UKC-reading chaps know the difference between sexual harrassment and chatting someone up. I'm sure you would all get to know somebody - be it online or in person - and get a feel for how well you're being received before declaring an admiration for the particular shape and size of their backsides.

But based on one comment froma stranger, it's perfectly ok to assume you know someone's sexuality? Really?
Kemics - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Timmd:

I was in the pub the other day, about to order my first drink when the bar maid said "wow, you know you have beautiful eyes?"

I felt all warm and fuzzy inside for a good while (probably the booze too). Anyway. It's completely unrelated to men complimenting women because there's no subtext of violence (which seems to be the main problem/intimidation)

However, its seems like a good way of randomly happiness-bombing someone. Ladies, drop some compliments and make someone's day :)
Toby S - on 07 May 2013
It's quite simple. Don't compliment anyone ever.

You all smell.

Thread ends.
Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to owlart:
> (In reply to Alyson)
> [...]
>
> But based on one comment froma stranger, it's perfectly ok to assume you know someone's sexuality? Really?

No, I wouldn't assume that at all but it would probably cross my mind based purely on previous experience. Just as a man approaching me to comment on my body would make me uncomfortable based on previous experiences of being followed, assaulted and intimidated.

Liking the colour of someone's fingernails doesn't make you gay. Telling them doesn't make you gay. Congratulate yourself on the fact that your compliment will have actually been a nice one to receive and won't have made them worry you were about to chase them to their car shouting 'Oi! Come back here! I only want to talk to you!' which was my last memorable encounter with someone with a very important opinion about my face.
Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Toby S:
> You all smell.

Of roses?
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Timmd:

http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/resources/statistics/sshstudies/

"More than 37 percent of female respondents have had a stranger masturbate at or in front of them at least once in public."

"Nearly 57 percent of women reported being touched or grabbed in a sexual way by a stranger in public. About 18 percent said they have been touched sexually at least six times."

"In a 2008 study of 811 women conducted by Stop Street Harassment, almost 1 in 4 women had experienced street harassment by age 12 (7th grade)"
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Timmd:

I think the other thing about getting stuck on the 'giving a woman a physical compliment' is that it sort of forgets about all the other types of street harassment that women experience, and that this might be one of the underlying reasons for their discomfort and unease.
In reply to Alyson: I think (and I stress think*, because it really is a minefield) that the point is whether the giver of the compliment appears to be seeking anything in return.

For example, if you were walking down the street and smiled, and a man walking the other way said "What a gorgeous smile!" and carried-on walking, I would imagine that would make you feel good.
In reply to tlm:
> (In reply to Timmd)
>
> http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/resources/statistics/sshstudies/
>
> "More than 37 percent of female respondents have had a stranger masturbate at or in front of them at least once in public."
>
> "Nearly 57 percent of women reported being touched or grabbed in a sexual way by a stranger in public. About 18 percent said they have been touched sexually at least six times."
>
> "In a 2008 study of 811 women conducted by Stop Street Harassment, almost 1 in 4 women had experienced street harassment by age 12 (7th grade)"

I can't believe that, by which I mean a) I'm sceptical about the figures, and b) if it's true it's unbelievable.
Toby S - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> (In reply to Toby S)
> [...]
>
> Of roses?

Sweaty armpits.
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

> I can't believe that, by which I mean a) I'm sceptical about the figures, and b) if it's true it's unbelievable.

Why do you find it hard to believe?

I'm sure there is plenty of research out there that you could look at. You could also ask women that you know about it...

Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Kemics:
> However, its seems like a good way of randomly happiness-bombing someone. Ladies, drop some compliments and make someone's day :)

Ok I can totally do this!

- Kemics, you have a marvellous helmet and two splendid hands.
- Owlart, I love your shirt, it really brings out the colour of your eyes (I'm guessing this last bit)
- Rampikino, your logbook impresses me greatly and I think Trevor Bouldering is one of the best moderated crags EVER.
- MG, those black pants really show off your backside.
- r0x0r.wolfo, your profile is full of intriguing mystery.
- Toby S, everyone loves a man who can play Taylor Swift songs with prowess. It is to be much admired.
RCC - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tlm:

> Why do you find it hard to believe?

I think the phrase 'informal online survey' rings alarm bells!


tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to RCC:

I guess I don't find it hard to believe because it meets my own experiences.

I found this too...

http://hollykearl.com/writing/docs/AlwaysonGuardOutlookSpring09.pdf

Maybe you could find something more academic and relevant, although this sort of thing tends not to attract funding or be well researched...
In reply to tlm:
> (In reply to Submit to Gravity)
>
> [...]
>
> Why do you find it hard to believe?
>
> I'm sure there is plenty of research out there that you could look at. You could also ask women that you know about it...

I can't help thinking some of them might have mentioned it.
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to RCC:

Here are some government statistics about REPORTED incidents:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/an-overview-of-sexual-offending-in-england-and-wales

"Around one in twenty females (aged 16 to 59) reported being a victim of a most serious sexual offence since the age of 16. Extending this to include other sexual offences such as sexual threats, unwanted touching or indecent exposure, this increased to one in five females reporting being a victim since the age of 16."

I must say, I wouldn't bother reporting many types of sexual 'assult' such as being grabbed, being wanked in front of, being flashed. I would only report it if I thought that it might form part of a pattern and that I could maybe protect other women by reporting it...
owlart - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> - Owlart, I love your shirt, it really brings out the colour of your eyes (I'm guessing this last bit)

Ah, you're clearly lesbian then, commenting on eye colour! :P
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

> I can't help thinking some of them might have mentioned it.

They might not bother - they might not see it as a big deal or want to make a fuss... Let me know what they say...

tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to owlart:

> Ah, you're clearly lesbian then, commenting on eye colour! :P

Hoorah! Alyson's a lesbian! I'm in with a chance!

Bjartur i Sumarhus on 07 May 2013
In reply to Timmd: Did anyone read about that Danish TV show where two men critique a naked female contestants body?

Now the question in my head is...as much as I know this program is wrong, would I watch it if it was offered on mainstream TV?

Would I be disgusted, or would it appeal to a deep routed atavism?
Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Submit to Gravity: I'll start you off. I've had a stranger masturbate in front of me (on a beach in Greece). I have been harrassed in the street, including being chased. I've been groped by strangers in bars/clubs - the assumption seeming to be that if you are having a drink, you must automatically want to be assaulted.

Sorry, I know you have a daughter and probably don't want the world to be like that, but it is. I wish the world wasn't like that too! That way this:

> For example, if you were walking down the street and smiled, and a man walking the other way said "What a gorgeous smile!" and carried-on walking, I would imagine that would make you feel good.

...could genuinely be lovely, and could happen without the woman feeling uneasy and the bloke wondering if he's being creepy. As it is, you're probably right. I don't get worked up over things like that (and I think I've said before that 'smile' is quite a nice thing to compliment because it seems to say that something about who that person is looks engaging.)
John_Hat - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

> I can't believe that, by which I mean a) I'm sceptical about the figures, and b) if it's true it's unbelievable.

I can easily believe it, in fact:

> "Nearly 57 percent of women reported being touched or grabbed in a sexual way by a stranger in public. >

That appears low to me. I would have through much nearer 100%.

Trouble is, STG, you me, most "normal" blokes, find the idea of going up to some random woman and grabbing her bum (a) sexual assault and (b) totally unacceptable. Unfortunately, to a lot of men that's normal behaviour and they *really* don't understand why the woman concerned has a problem with it. "It's a compliment, luv", etc. Ditto screaming sexual abuse at women in the street. "It's just a bit o' fun".

There is a section of male society that's really a lot bigger than you might think or hope that, especially when drunk, finds sexual assault entirely acceptable.
RCC - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tlm:

> Here are some government statistics about REPORTED incidents:


Is that not based on the UK crime survey, which is polled (i.e not reported)? In any case it is certainly more believable. The trouble with online surveys it that they are massively self-selecting, making extrapolations to any group other than the respondents largely pointless.
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to RCC:

> Is that not based on the UK crime survey, which is polled (i.e not reported)? In any case it is certainly more believable. The trouble with online surveys it that they are massively self-selecting, making extrapolations to any group other than the respondents largely pointless.

Yes, but in order to appear in the crime survey, an incident first has to be reported by the woman that it happened to. Many women don't bother to do this as it feels too trivial and they don't think anything will be done about it and they don't want to cause a fuss.

I know that about online surveys which is why I tried to find something that you would find more reliable. I think it's quite funny that you've never noticed this going on all around you! But then, I guess I don't notice the football world cup, or the olympic results. We are all quite selective in what we notice I guess....

RCC - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tlm:
> (In reply to RCC)
>
> [...]
>
> Yes, but in order to appear in the crime survey, an incident first has to be reported by the woman that it happened to.

No it doesn't the UK crime survey is deliberately designed to reflect experience of crime rather than reports of crime.

See http://www.crimesurvey.co.uk/about-this-research.html

"The Crime Survey... records crimes that may not have been reported to the police"
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to RCC:

Oooo!

You learn something every day!

But I don't get how they can know about things that no one bothers to tell anyone about? I would think that most women wouldn't see having their breasts or bottoms groped as a crime, so wouldn't even think of reporting it, let alone having abusive stuff shouted at them? Most women I know see it as a trivial thing to be shrugged off and just don't go to certain places at certain times of the day...
Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tlm:
> (In reply to owlart)
>
> Hoorah! Alyson's a lesbian! I'm in with a chance!

I'm coming straight over! I'll be dressed as wonder woman.
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to RCC:

"Overall 2.5 per cent of females and 0.4
per cent of males had reported experiencing some form of sexual offence in the last 12 months"

So if this was evenly spread, we could expect 100% of women to have experienced something by the time they were 40 (or 50 if you think that no under 10 year olds experienced anything). Of course, it wouldn't be evenly spread, and more incidents happen to those in their 20s....
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:

> I'm coming straight over! I'll be dressed as wonder woman.

*rummages in dressing up box for a suitable outfit*

MG - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> (In reply to Kemics)
> [...]

> - MG, those black pants really show off your backside.

Stop harrassing me!
.

tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to MG:

> Stop harrassing me!

*spanks MG's bottom in an unwanted show of attention*

Milesy - on 07 May 2013
And not to reduce the seriousness of the topic, having spent some time in academia research online surveys are usually pretty biased. A true survey needs to be a true random sample of the population, and even then the responses are likely to be biased in favour of the results of the survey. I.e. you request people to come forward themself and say if they have been assaulted or not then more people will come forward who have as they have a vested interest in that result. If you send out surveys to a random sample yourself, more of those again with a vested interest will fill out the survey. So you need a sample of people to come forward to have no idea what the survey is, and everyone needs to fill out the response under controlled conditions.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to MG:
>
> Stop harrassing me!

You need to learn that my opinion is very important. How will you know whether to feel good about yourself or not if I don't tell you?
In reply to John_Hat:
> (In reply to Submit to Gravity)
>
> [...]
>
> I can easily believe it, in fact:
>
> [...]
>
> That appears low to me. I would have through much nearer 100%.
>
> Trouble is, STG, you me, most "normal" blokes, find the idea of going up to some random woman and grabbing her bum (a) sexual assault and (b) totally unacceptable. Unfortunately, to a lot of men that's normal behaviour and they *really* don't understand why the woman concerned has a problem with it. "It's a compliment, luv", etc. Ditto screaming sexual abuse at women in the street. "It's just a bit o' fun".
>
> There is a section of male society that's really a lot bigger than you might think or hope that, especially when drunk, finds sexual assault entirely acceptable.

I find this all mind-blowing. The fact that a bloke would wank-off in public in front of a woman is bad enough, but then that woman just thinking "Whatever..." is almost as mind-blowing to me.
RCC - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tlm:

> But I don't get how they can know about things that no one bothers to tell anyone about?

Especially if they genuinely don't regard it as a crime... FWIW, I doubt that the UK crime survey is a great way of quantifying levels of street harassment, but neither is an online survey...

Anyway, that was my only point I'm not trying to say it doesn't happen, or that it is uncommon or inconsequential. Speaking to female friends about their experiences is very revealing. As you say, it is astonishing what goes on around you unnoticed...
Toby S - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> (In reply to Kemics)
> [...]
>
> Ok I can totally do this!

> - Toby S, everyone loves a man who can play Taylor Swift songs with prowess. It is to be much admired.

I feel despoiled.

Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
>
> I find this all mind-blowing. The fact that a bloke would wank-off in public in front of a woman is bad enough, but then that woman just thinking "Whatever..." is almost as mind-blowing to me.

I guess if you've got a bloke who's a groper, he could work his way through a crowded nightclub and assault a couple of dozen women but for each of them it doesn't seem worth reporting as they didn't get a good look at him and he's disappeared now anyway. So you've then got lots of women with experience of being randomly felt up by a stranger, lots of men who woudn't dream of doing anything like that, and one weirdo who doesn't get stopped.

As for the wanking off, well if it happened in Britain I would report it. To me, it happened while I was on holiday so I couldn't be bothered getting into some kind of uncomfortable translation situation in a Greek police station with me trying mime what had he'd done :)
IainRUK - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson: Do you really think a pinch on the arse is sexual assault? i think John said it was..

It just seems a tad excessive.. I've never done it but plenty of girls have, but I've just laughed it off.. and if they were fit go over for a chat..

If they weren't I'd just turn around and ignore them.

I can see that say grabbing a breast is, but just a pinch on the arse seems a tad over-reacting..

owlart - on 07 May 2013
In reply to IainRUK: Presumably if complimenting a woman in the street is now classed as sexual harassment (and therefore criminalised) then a pinch on the bum is certainly going to be classed as sexual assualt if not ABH/GBH.
deepsoup - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> This is a curious conversation in a lot of ways. I thought the original article somewhat limited in that it addressed a relatively small subset of men who probably wouldn't be reading it anyway. Perhaps the clumsy wording of it has got some hackles up, because I'm surprised at the disagreement it's provoked.
>
> I am firmly convinced that the vast majority of you normal, funny, lovely, micro-fleece wearing, slightly rugged, UKC-reading chaps know the difference between sexual harrassment and chatting someone up. I'm sure you would all get to know somebody - be it online or in person - and get a feel for how well you're being received before declaring an admiration for the particular shape and size of their backsides.

I was going to post a link to another thread to compare/contrast to this one yesterday (I thought the juxtaposition was quite interesting), but it seems to have disappeared now.

It was the one in which a male poster was talking about his discomfort when a female friend he does not fancy at all made a comment on Facebook that seemed a lot like a sexual come-on, and worrying a bit about hurting her feelings.
There seemed to be a lot of the normal, funny, lovely, micro-fleece wearing, slightly rugged chaps of UCK urging him to stop worrying about her feelings (and his own) and just man-up and shag her. (Among various euphemisms, and some old chestnuts about mantleshelves and fire-poking.)
A suprisingly large minority referred to the woman in question as "it".

I'm sure everyone who posted something along those lines would say it was in jest, but some of it did seem a bit creepy to me.

(At risk of falling foul of the thread police, can anyone tell me what happened to get that thread pulled?)
John_Hat - on 07 May 2013
In reply to IainRUK:
> (In reply to Alyson) Do you really think a pinch on the arse is sexual assault? i think John said it was..
>

I think technically it is (sexual assault). Whether the most appropriate response is the criminal justice system or a knee in the groin is another thing...
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

> I find this all mind-blowing. The fact that a bloke would wank-off in public in front of a woman is bad enough, but then that woman just thinking "Whatever..." is almost as mind-blowing to me.

I've had 3 that I remember - one was multiple nights, outside a girls (14-18 year olds) hostel. We called the police each time, but they used to put their sirens on and he always ran off (even though we suggested that the sirens might not be a good idea). One was on a train and I just got up and moved to another carriage and didn't report it. Another time was a bloke under a footbridge - I wasn't really sure if he had really thought about being so observable (I was young at the time) so I didn't bother to report it. I've had a few flashers too and one guy that followed me home and asked me if I was scared of rapists. I reported him to the police, because I thought he might do something to someone the next time. I don't think I'm particularly unusual.

tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

> I can see that say grabbing a breast is, but just a pinch on the arse seems a tad over-reacting..


It depends how it is done, quite honestly, but you have to think that in the context of all the stuff that goes on, put together with the fact that women are usually smaller, it could be taken quite badly. I was a bit shocked to meet a whole bunch of women who won't go out on their own after dark, and who run to their front doors from their cars. It made me realise that being big and strong might make me feel and react differently than other women might.
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
> (In reply to John_Hat)
> [...]
>
> I find this all mind-blowing. The fact that a bloke would wank-off in public in front of a woman is bad enough, but then that woman just thinking "Whatever..." is almost as mind-blowing to me.

Also - it isn't just thinking 'whatever'. It's thinking that nothing will be done even if you do report it, and that people will think you are making a fuss about nothing and that it's all just a bit of a laugh, and you must be a wimpy fusspot pc gone mad type. And it is easier to just shrug it off, or just tell your mates than have to actually think it through in any depth which ends up just being more worrying. But it all leaves you with an awareness that not all approaches are friendly, cheery and harmless, which can leave you feeling a bit guarded if you are on your own.

That is another point - it's one thing approaching a woman if she is with other people - in particular, with another bloke. If you would say something to her on her own, but not if she was with a bloke, you can be sure that it IS a bit dodgy.

Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to IainRUK: I'm not a lawyer, but I think sexual assault is defined as any sexual activity you did not agree to and the definition includes 'inappropriate touching'. So technically I suppose it could be. I guess the practical application of the law comes down to context, so pinching your employee on the arse might be viewed differently (more inappropriately) to a cheeky pinch on the bum of a girl in a pub. For the latter you could argue that you wished to make your interest known in a lighthearted way, in a social situation where she wouldn't feel threatened. I don't really know!

It's not something I'd report but do it to the wrong woman and maybe she would.
Kemics - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tlm:

Similarly despite being an attractive petite blonde, I imagine Ronda Rousey tolerates 0% harassment - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kemcyzbz8j4

In reply to tlm: My choice of "whatever" was poor; I meant that they shrugged off something I would think of as outrageous. I'm really shocked by what you and others have experienced.
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

I'm old, so I have had a lot of time to experience things in...
Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tlm: And now you're going to experience me dressed as wonder woman! Life just keeps on giving ;)
deepsoup - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> (In reply to tlm) And now you're going to experience me dressed as wonder woman! Life just keeps on giving ;)

Oh I *do* hope there's going to be a new profile pic. :o)
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:

*jumps up and down, clapping hands in delight*
Blue Straggler - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tlm:
> (In reply to RCC)
>
> So if this was evenly spread, we could expect 100% of women to have experienced something by the time they were 40 (or 50 if you think that no under 10 year olds experienced anything). Of course, it wouldn't be evenly spread, and more incidents happen to those in their 20s....

Regardless of "evenly spread", that is simply NOT how statistics works!

ads.ukclimbing.com
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

> I find this all mind-blowing. The fact that a bloke would wank-off in public in front of a woman is bad enough, but then that woman just thinking "Whatever..." is almost as mind-blowing to me.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/143910/sexual-offending-ov...

"Further questions, related to the most recent incident, were asked of victims of offences in the most serious sexual offence category. Around a quarter (28 per cent, Table 2.5) of females had not told anyone about the incident. One in seven had told the police about the incident (15 per cent), and all of these respondents had had also told somebody else. Fifty-seven per cent of females told someone about the incident, but did not tell the police. For those who did tell someone about their experience, the
main group that victims confided in were friends, relatives or neighbours (65 per cent).

Respondents who had not reported the incident to the police were asked why they did not report it. Due to the low numbers of victims, it is difficult to draw firm conclusions from these findings. However, data from responses to these questions do provide a broad indication of the most commonly cited reasons for not reporting a sexual offence to the police. Based on the responses of females victims in the 2011/12 survey, the most frequently cited were that it would be ‘embarrassing’, they ‘didn’t think the police could do much to help’, that the incident was ‘too trivial/ not worth reporting’, or that they saw it as a ‘private/family matter and not police
business’. "
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> Regardless of "evenly spread", that is simply NOT how statistics works!

OK - given the percentage per year, you estimate what percentage of all women are likely to have experienced sexual harassment...



RCC - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tlm:

> OK - given the percentage per year, you estimate what percentage of all women are likely to have experienced sexual harassment...

I think that Blue Staggler was just pointing out that you don't simply add probabilities to get a overall probability. i.e. it is actually one minus the probability of not experiencing sexual harassment in a given year (i.e. 0.75) raised to the power 40.

I was going to point this out too, but: 1. I've already been pedantic enough, and 2. The correct answer is actually something like 99.999%, so to all intents and purposes 100% is correct. In actual fact, you would only need 10 years or so before the probability was over 95%!

RCC - on 07 May 2013
In reply to RCC:

Actually, scratch that! You said 2.5% didn't you, not 25%.

In that case it would be well over 100 years before more than 95% of women had experienced some form of sexual offence. After 40 years it would be around 63%
Blue Straggler - on 07 May 2013
In reply to RCC:

You are not allowing for multiple reports from the same sample set in each ten-year period.
balmybaldwin - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Timmd:

Another case of unwanted masturbation in another thread: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=548920
RCC - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> You are not allowing for multiple reports from the same sample set in each ten-year period.

I am, I just misread the per year percentage (corrected in my 2nd reply). In reality, I would have thought that there would also not be random sampling; I imagine that women who experience one sexual offence are far more likely to experience another.
tlm - on 07 May 2013
In reply to RCC:
> I imagine that women who experience one sexual offence are far more likely to experience another.

In that report, it said that the thing that most closely correlated was simply being a woman...

Age also did, but seeing as we all go through various ages at various times of our lives, that doesn't affect what a woman will experience over her whole life... I think my experiences have slowed down as I have got older...

andyathome - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Timmd:
Just quickly glanced at the thread title without reading on. Thought I'd congratulate you on spelling 'Writing' correctly.
In reply to andyathome:
> (In reply to Timmd)
> Just quickly glanced at the thread title without reading on. Thought I'd congratulate you on spelling 'Writing' correctly.

Ah, lovely - a complement...
krikoman - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> (In reply to krikoman)
> [...]
>
> Ha! That made me chuckle. Was 'what do you think of sex?' your opening question? In the context of a street harrassment discussion I'm sort of imagining you asking some girl in the bus queue :)

Yes, first words I spoke to her, nightclub so a little tipsy both of us.

Met another girlfirend with the opening line of "they're nice" <eyes indicating fullsome breasts> that was another long term relationship too. And sober at the time, we'd met before about 6 months ago but hadn't spoken.

I'm pretty up front with most people and I supose if people are going to be offended then they're probably not my type.

At least that way everyone know what the score is and nobody wastes anyones time.

I'm rubbish at talking to women and as far as "your nail varnish looks nice" I'd just feel too creepy.
Timmd on 07 May 2013
In reply to Snoweider:
> (In reply to Timmd)
>

> I think the article is appallingly written but the points it raises are valid.

That's what I think as well.

I can't believe stroppygob commented on the writer's looks and decided she can't have unwelcome appreciative comments made about her by men (presumably because she's too ugly).
Timmd on 07 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:
> (In reply to Timmd)
>
> Did you actually write that blog yourself Timmd? Your posts here are very simmilar in linguistic style to the blog.

No, but I probably adsorbed it subconsciously though, like one can with speech and language.

I find it interesting how you posted about them being left wing feminists going on about imaginary slights, or words to that affect.

You don't strike me as being in the best place to know if women actually can have problems with street harassment, for one pretty obvious reason.

Have a look at some of the hollaback sites where women can report street harassment, as a way of not internalising it I guess, it's quite eye opening.

Being 'quietly gay' as it were, in that i'm not very camp and don't wear particularly tight trousers etc, and other things people might home in on as a target, I've had homophobic comments made in the past.

Apparently the more homophobic a bloke is the better they are at spotting gay people, because it's something they see as threatening to them, presumably this is why some have spotted me and felt the need to comment, but i'm going off topic...

My point is, it's not something a female would be in a position to comment on, homophobic street harassment that is, any more than you're able to say it's feminists going on about imaginary slights, when chances are you've not much of a clue how much this kind of thing happens to women.

Open your mind a little, because it's not imaginary...
Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to krikoman: I'm kind of fascinated. When asked what they think of sex, do many people reply 'I'm not that bothered/I only like it on Thursdays/ I'd prefer a nice game of petanque'? I'd equate it to being asked what I thought of orgasms. What's not to like?! Bizarre.
Alyson - on 07 May 2013
In reply to deepsoup:
> (In reply to Alyson)
> [...]
>
> I was going to post a link to another thread to compare/contrast to this one yesterday (I thought the juxtaposition was quite interesting), but it seems to have disappeared now.
>
> It was the one in which a male poster was talking about his discomfort when a female friend he does not fancy at all made a comment on Facebook that seemed a lot like a sexual come-on, and worrying a bit about hurting her feelings.
> There seemed to be a lot of the normal, funny, lovely, micro-fleece wearing, slightly rugged chaps of UCK urging him to stop worrying about her feelings (and his own) and just man-up and shag her. (Among various euphemisms, and some old chestnuts about mantleshelves and fire-poking.)
> A suprisingly large minority referred to the woman in question as "it".
>
Yeah I saw that thread too. Not exactly an edifying spectacle I must admit. Ok, you've convinced me - the men of UKC are mostly pigs :)
stroppygob - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> (In reply to stroppygob)

> How do you know? If that conversation never happened, if they haven't told you they appreciate the shallow compliment from a complete stranger, how do you know they like it?

Oh don't be silly now, you were doing so well.

Are you denying that some, not all, women may appreciate a compliment from a stranger?



stroppygob - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Timmd:
> (In reply to Snoweider)
> [...]

>
> I can't believe stroppygob commented on the writer's looks and decided she can't have unwelcome appreciative comments made about her by men (presumably because she's too ugly).


So it's ok for her to be rude about men, but not for us to be rude about her. Double standards there.
IainRUK - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> (In reply to deepsoup)
> [...]
> Yeah I saw that thread too. Not exactly an edifying spectacle I must admit. Ok, you've convinced me - the men of UKC are mostly pigs :)

Aye it wasn't great.. some things are best left unsaid.. but it was late at night.. no doubt a few had beers inside them..

I do think guys are much more liable to spout shite on a night out with friends.. 90% that comes out is rubbish.. maybe its the same for women.. no idea.. but I've known of girls and guys repeat to the guys girlfriends stuff what was said.. and you know the guy was just being an idiot but didn't mean what he was saying.. just drink talk..
confusicating on 07 May 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

Ah it was pretty inexcusable, some (a lot) of the stuff said.
Timmd on 07 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:

It'd be a double standard if you were commenting about her behaviour and what she thinks, but you've not, you've said she's too ugly for blokes to complement her in an unwelcome way, and (presumably) therefore imagines it.

Anybody can be rude, what have you proven by being so? One could always have a discussion...


Timmd on 07 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:
> (In reply to Alyson)
>
> Saves time doesn't it? These generalised whinges against men (unspecified,) lecturing us about not doing what most of us would never dream of doing in the first place, are just odd.

If it wasn't a generalised piece of writing, would you see it in a different light?

It's possible that men commenting on women happens more than you think you know, just a while ago I was in the back of a van where the driver was calling things out of the window to women while driving along.

I didn't notice any smiles or signs of appreciation in response to be honest.



stroppygob - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Timmd:
> (In reply to stroppygob)

> Anybody can be rude, what have you proven by being so?

That I have low tolerance for the sort of garbage which is in the OP.
stroppygob - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Timmd:
> (In reply to stroppygob)
> [...]
>
> If it wasn't a generalised piece of writing, would you see it in a different light?

Obviously.

> It's possible that men commenting on women happens more than you think you know, just a while ago I was in the back of a van where the driver was calling things out of the window to women while driving along.
>
> I didn't notice any smiles or signs of appreciation in response to be honest.

It's possible it happens less than you think, and for reasons other than you believe.

Timmd on 08 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:
> (In reply to Timmd)
> [...]
>
> Obviously.

That's a relief.

> It's possible it happens less than you think, and for reasons other than you believe.

Either is possible, though I can't guess what reasons you think I might believe?!? That's the specialist area of a certain expat living in France who I don't want to be rude about, telling

people what it is they think.

I've been thinking it only has to be a minority of men to hassle proportionally more women going about their business, if they're in the habit of commenting.

Said van driver was talking about how one should go about commenting to the people next to him, it gave me the impression it was something he did.

There being a hollaback network might suggest it's a problem, that it's a hassle for enough women that something like hollaback is established in different countries and cities.

How do you or I know? There's no reason why it couldn't be.
r0x0r.wolfo - on 08 May 2013
In reply to tlm:
> (In reply to r0x0r.wolfo)
>
> [...]
>
> No - just be interested in a person, rather than a body. If you are only interested in a body and not the person, you will seem a bit creepy to me.

What exactly do you know about the person? If they're wearing starwars t-shirt, they like starwars? It's not that you don't care about the person is just any initial attraction is probaby going to be physical. At the end the day, you don't like directness as a western, british, personality before looks ideal, hugh grant film watching(?) individual and thats fine. You are qualifing your statements with "to me" so you're clearly realising not every woman has the same opinions, and may be more open to certain kinds of approaches than you are.
deepsoup - on 08 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:
> So it's ok for her to be rude about men, but not for us to be rude about her. Double standards there.

On the subject of generalisations and double standards - it's outrageous for her to address comments to "men", but ok for you to presume to speak for "us"? :oP
deepsoup - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> Ok, you've convinced me - the men of UKC are mostly pigs :)

Snort!
stroppygob - on 08 May 2013
In reply to deepsoup:
> (In reply to stroppygob)
> [...]
>
> On the subject of generalisations and double standards - it's outrageous for her to address comments to "men", but ok for you to presume to speak for "us"? :oP

I'll think you'll find it very difficult to show I've talked for anyone other than myself.
krikoman - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> (In reply to krikoman) I'm kind of fascinated. When asked what they think of sex, ..

I've only asked it once (well in that context anyhow) her reply was, "it's alright, with the right person". Which simultaneously intrigued me, sex - just alright!!!, and gave me a challenge - "am I the right person?" which is what I asked her.

"Well I don't know you do I?"……….

cue 5 year relationship :-)
Alyson - on 08 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:
> Oh don't be silly now, you were doing so well.

Yes I know. A good deal better than you I feel :-P
>
> Are you denying that some, not all, women may appreciate a compliment from a stranger?

No I was asking you a direct question, and you haven't answered it.
Alyson - on 08 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:
> (In reply to deepsoup)
> [...]
>
> I'll think you'll find it very difficult to show I've talked for anyone other than myself.

Who was the 'us' then? You were the only person being rude about her appearance. Are you plural?
krikoman - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> (In reply to stroppygob)
> [...]
>
>Are you plural?

my name is legion for we are many
tlm - on 08 May 2013
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

> What exactly do you know about the person? If they're wearing starwars t-shirt, they like starwars? It's not that you don't care about the person is just any initial attraction is probaby going to be physical.

Exactly - you don't know much about them, so get to know them a bit before expressing your opinion about them! There are lots of none physical clues too - is the person happy, confident, shy, bored, nervous, alone, in company.......

> At the end the day, you don't like directness

I most definitely do like directness. I'm just not keen on someone who doesn't know me thinking that they have every right to comment on an aspect of my appearance without even making any effort to get to know me first. And I am not a nervous, timid or shy person.

> You are qualifing your statements with "to me" so you're clearly realising not every woman has the same opinions, and may be more open to certain kinds of approaches than you are.

Everyone in life is different. You probably realise that some women are even less open to certain kinds of approaches than I am. Also - women aren't the passive objects that you seem to be describing them as here (a bit like a fish, needing to be caught). I would just approach someone myself if I was that keen.
stroppygob - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> (In reply to stroppygob)

> I'll think you'll find it very difficult to show I've talked for anyone other than myself.

> Who was the 'us' then? You were the only person being rude about her appearance. Are you plural?

Oh god, that really isn't worthy of reply is it?

Do you not know the difference between "for" and "about" Alyson. If not, then go back to primary school.
Alyson - on 08 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob: I understand it perfectly chicken, but it has no relevance whatsoever to your original question or any subsequent response.

You seem to be avoiding replying to a lot of things.
r0x0r.wolfo - on 08 May 2013
In reply to tlm:
> (In reply to r0x0r.wolfo)

>
> Exactly - you don't know much about them, so get to know them a bit before expressing your opinion about them! There are lots of none physical clues too - is the person happy, confident, shy, bored, nervous, alone, in company.......

Well in order to work out whether they're happy you're looking at body language etc, what they're actually doing, facial expressions. It's really splitting hairs whether we call this "non physical" or not.

> I most definitely do like directness. I'm just not keen on someone who doesn't know me thinking that they have every right to comment on an aspect of my appearance without even making any effort to get to know me first. And I am not a nervous, timid or shy person.

Yeah I understand, you want a conversation first, you want a intermediary step before they talk about your looks. You do not like directness in that sense.

> Everyone in life is different. You probably realise that some women are even less open to certain kinds of approaches than I am. Also - women aren't the passive objects that you seem to be describing them as here (a bit like a fish, needing to be caught). I would just approach someone myself if I was that keen.

I'm not sure how I am treating women as "passive objects". By stating that women have a multitude of opinions and attitudes to this topic in this society and may have wildly different cultural backgrounds which affect these, you are telling me I talking about women as "passive objects".

This of course, coming from someone who has been projecting her own views onto every single woman on the planet in order to "protect them" and ward off any "males" (aka flashers/rapists) from offending or upsetting them by effectively 'saying the wrong thing'.
stroppygob - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> (In reply to stroppygob) I understand it perfectly chicken, but it has no relevance whatsoever to your original question or any subsequent response.


Please point out and quote where I gave any indication I was speaking for anyone other than myself.
Darren Jackson - on 09 May 2013
tlm - on 09 May 2013
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

> This of course, coming from someone who has been projecting her own views onto every single woman on the planet in order to "protect them" and ward off any "males" (aka flashers/rapists) from offending or upsetting them by effectively 'saying the wrong thing'.

The way that I think and the way that you interpret my writing are two very different things.

Alyson - on 09 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:
> (In reply to Alyson)
> Please point out and quote where I gave any indication I was speaking for anyone other than myself.

22.34 on Tuesday. "So it's ok for her to be rude about men, but not for us to be rude about her."

It's a basic sentence. If you meant a subset of men you needed to specify that, eg "So it's ok for her to be rude about men, but not ok for Cornish ex-pats with acne to be rude about her". If you meant you specifically then an appropriate sentence would have been "So it's ok for her to be rude about men, but not ok for me to be rude about her." Therefore deepsoup was perfectly entitled to his response.

You've developed quite a habit of making posts which you have neither the balls to defend nor the grace to retract, then leaving yourself no option other than arguing that simple English words mean something completely different when you write them while evading any direct question.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me how you know whether this

> The gym I use has many fit and healthy young women... many of them love compliments from other gym members.

is true or not if you don't have a conversation where they tell you that they like it? Are you a mind-reader by any chance?
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In reply to Alyson: You're great)
Alyson - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Submit to Gravity: Aww :) I've gone all red now.

That was actually one of my goals for 2013. The full list reads:

- have completely rad baby
- find a frog orchid
- buy new lightbulb for cooker hood
- be great
tlm - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:

Where is "Swing from tlm's lightbulbs, dressed as wonderwoman?"
deepsoup - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> - have completely red baby

Hellboy? Awesome!
Alyson - on 09 May 2013
In reply to tlm: That's on my sub-list for May!:

- Swing from tlm's lightbulbs dressed as wonder woman
- Take silver dress to the dry cleaners
- Teach deepsoup differences between vowels
- Experiment
deepsoup - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> - Swing from tlm's lightbulbs dressed as wonder woman
And on the sub-sub-list for May: new UKC profile pic? :o)

> - Take silver dress to the dry cleaners
Brasso.

> - Teach deepsoup differences between vowels
Hah. You'll be looky.

> - Experiment
Woo!
Wicamoi on 09 May 2013
In reply to tlm:

To broaden out the discussion somewhat, along lines that you've already hinted at, I'd observe that this discussion has been a very English-speaking affair, and that other, perhaps better, cultures of street compliments are available.

The English-speaking system consists of a lot of terribly polite and repressed English-speaking males not saying nice things to strange English-speaking women, while a few less polite and insufficiently repressed English-speaking males say what they like in a somewhat ugly and threatening way.

Result: women rather rarely get a compliment in the street that they really enjoy; polite men miss out on the pleasure of seeing a woman's pleasure in being well complimented; impolite men get outraged because they don't understand how their comments can be so unwelcome.

The French do these things so much better.
Alyson - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Wicamoi:
>
> Result: women rather rarely get a compliment in the street that they really enjoy; polite men miss out on the pleasure of seeing a woman's pleasure in being well complimented; impolite men get outraged because they don't understand how their comments can be so unwelcome.

This sums it up beautifully.
krikoman - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Wicamoi:
> (In reply to tlm)
>
> The French do these things so much better.


French women are less up tight though aren't they?


<ducks below parapet>

Or ids that ducks below parrot pet (some sort of league table for birds??)

stroppygob - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> (In reply to stroppygob)
> [...]
>
> 22.34 on Tuesday. "So it's ok for her to be rude about men, but not for us to be rude about her."
>
> It's a basic sentence. If you meant a subset of men you needed to specify that, eg "So it's ok for her to be rude about men, but not ok for Cornish ex-pats with acne to be rude about her". If you meant you specifically then an appropriate sentence would have been "So it's ok for her to be rude about men, but not ok for me to be rude about her." Therefore deepsoup was perfectly entitled to his response.


Well done you've excelled yourself. I was not speaking "for" men but "about" men.


If you cannot see that, then there's no point in my continuing to keep trying to educate you.
Alyson - on 09 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob: In that case you should have written '...but not for men to rude about her'. Which you didn't. And the only person being rude about her on the entire thread was you, so you were responding to a criticism of yourself. Why not keep it at 'me'?
James B - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
> (In reply to Alyson) You're great)

Seconded :)
deepsoup - on 10 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:
> Well done you've excelled yourself. I was not speaking "for" men but "about" men.

"Us" = first person plural.

> If you cannot see that, then there's no point in my continuing to keep trying to educate you.

"Educate", hmmm. <strokes chin>

Timmd on 12 May 2013
In reply to Wicamoi:
> (In reply to tlm)
>
> To broaden out the discussion somewhat, along lines that you've already hinted at, I'd observe that this discussion has been a very English-speaking affair, and that other, perhaps better, cultures of street compliments are available.
>
> The English-speaking system consists of a lot of terribly polite and repressed English-speaking males not saying nice things to strange English-speaking women, while a few less polite and insufficiently repressed English-speaking males say what they like in a somewhat ugly and threatening way.
>
> Result: women rather rarely get a compliment in the street that they really enjoy; polite men miss out on the pleasure of seeing a woman's pleasure in being well complimented; impolite men get outraged because they don't understand how their comments can be so unwelcome.
>
> The French do these things so much better.

I was thinking it must be possible to compliment each other without it coming across wrong/badly. I don't suppose there's a reason why it needn't be non verbal, with a smile and a friendly expression taking the place of words.
In reply to Timmd:
> (In reply to Wicamoi)
> [...]
>
> I was thinking it must be possible to compliment each other without it coming across wrong/badly. I don't suppose there's a reason why it needn't be non verbal, with a smile and a friendly expression taking the place of words.

Maybe rubbing one's groin?
krikoman - on 12 May 2013
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
> (In reply to Timmd)
> [...]
>
> Maybe rubbing one's groin?

What, against each others?
biped - on 12 May 2013
In reply to Blue Straggler:
> (In reply to tlm)
> [...]
>
> How about "your hair smells lovely - what shampoo do you use?"

This would only be creepy if said by a dwarf.


Duncan Bourne - on 12 May 2013
In reply to Blue Straggler:
> (In reply to tlm)
> [...]
>
> How about "your hair smells lovely - what shampoo do you use?"

I think that it is probably fine if they are gay
MJ - on 12 May 2013
In reply to Blue Straggler:

How about "your hair smells lovely - what shampoo do you use?"

Reminds me of this: -

Question: You smell nice, what have you got on?
Answer: A hard-on, but I didn't think you could smell that.
tlm - on 13 May 2013
In reply to MJ:

What's the difference between light and hard?



You can go to sleep with a light on.
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In reply to tlm: High five!

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