UKC

http://freethoughtblogs.com/brutereason/2013/05/02/why-you-shouldnt-tell-th...

As the title says really, have a read...

In reply to Timmd:

I was going to comment on the progressive feminist atheist view but I wouldn't want to fluster sensitive souls.

So I will just add that as a piece of writing, it leaves a lot to be desired.

In reply to Timmd: I sometimes wonder how some of the women climbers on here feel when people post comments on their appearance on their user profiles? And DFBWGC on the other channel?

In reply to wintertree:

I'm sure people will survive you posting your opinion to be fair.


How so?

Can be a tad difficult to understand an opinion without knowing the logic behind it. People may just wonder what you're waffling on about.

Expand away, it was the motive for starting the thread...

In reply to thepeaks:

ditto

D

In reply to thepeaks:

Then lets ask them.

Personally, speaking as a male, i would be flattered. Cant say how i would feel if i had received plenty of unwanted attention. Mars and Venue, eh.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/brutereason/2012/10/14/on-men-who-think-street-...

As if by magic, a web link appeared. ()

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I went to a venue once. A bit disappointing, when you consider I was aiming at Venus. I think my spaceship needs a new spell checker.

In reply to Tony Naylor:

Oops, didnt spot that one. Ipad typing not so good.

In reply to Timmd:

Hmm, thats a good blog and i totally understand

In reply to Timmd:

I have 3 daughter's in their twenties,and it appears to me that if some young 'fit' guy was to compliment them on their appearance they would be flattered and would be telling all their friends.

If an old ugly bloke like me complimented them in exactly the same way they would be thinking of calling the police.

The problem is that too many old fat ugly blokes, think they look young and 'fit'

In reply to Jim C:

Your daughters may be lucky in having had a nice enough time of being female that they'd think it's great and tell their friends?

I think a work friend ( I say work but I volunteer) wouldn't like it to be honest. She was in an abusive relationship in her mid teens, which has left her wary of a hidden side to men she doesn't know so well.

I managed to put my foot in it by figuring that out for myself (that she's wary of a hidden side) and verbalising my thoughts, as it happens, with it being 9 years ago it took me aback a little how raw and personal it still is. It explained a lot, how she reacted.

The point of the blog in the OP is that men can't know how women will feel. Which is a valid one even if the guy giving their approval is young and fit.

In reply to thepeaks: To be fair, I have just seen that DFBWGC has been binned though there was some toy throwing afterwards.

In reply to Timmd:

Actually, I wasn't that insensitive, I mentioned i'd been thinking that one could become wary.

In reply to thepeaks: I think it would be interesting to see how many female posters compared to males don't have photos on here. I don't want random strangers judging my appearance so why would put a photo on

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I have seen comments about female UKC users and their profile pics and if they'd "get it".

Personally i dont like it. Some enjoy attention in this manner but the majority dont.

People of any gender shouldnt be talked about as if they were an object there to be judged. Then again i wouldnt put up any pictures on here i didnt want anyone to see.

Subtle attention or comments from friends is nice but drunk guys leering or strangers on an online forum commenting makes you feel a little edgy.

Elaine

In reply to wintertree:

It would be improved a lot by her simply not using those awful "Here's the thing." and "Look" prefixes to announce that the following paragraph is REALLY IMPORTANT AND CLEVER.

I'm surprised that "Here's the thing" is not on that many bullshit-bingo cards.

In reply to Timmd:

It's "complimenting".

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I would say around 75% of random 'street' compliments feel threatening, and more than half of the ones which make me feel uncomfortable lead to me being shouted at further, or followed. It isn't pleasant and it doesn't make you feel good. You say that as a male you'd be flattered, but as a male you've probably never been followed by a stranger determined to tell you what he wants to put in your mouth.

Being complimented online feels much less overtly threatening, though I know there are females on here who've been the victim of cyber-stalking/harrassment so I don't want to say that too lightly. If you don't know the person at all and haven't bothered trying to get to know them in any way then telling them they have a fantastic figure is a bit weird. What would be your motivation for doing it?

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Absolutely.

If I've made it sound like I get loads of compliments then I've not represented myself very well btw.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Here's an idea you would be flattered i supose if a woman commented on you but i doubt you find a woman intimidating...

What if it was a large male who could in theory be a threat? Would you be just as flattered?

In reply to Timmd: This I found more readable.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/02/dont-want-to-hear-sexy-...

In reply to Timmd: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-new-teen-age/201108/hey-baby-hurts

In reply to Timmd: I really am embarrassed to be a male sometimes - totally unacceptable.

In reply to Timmd: I don't comment on women in the streets nor do I care about their plight of feeling uncomfortable. I'm certaintly not going to change my actions or lack of on the off chance someone has been sexually assaulted. "Have you got the time" sometimes leads to a good mugging/battering, grow some skin

In reply to FreshSlate: Interesting response, i've got plenty of skin.

In reply to FreshSlate: 'nor do I care about their plight of feeling uncomfortable.'

I think that tells us all we need know.

In reply to FreshSlate: I don't understand your reply. If you don't comment on women in the street then no one is asking you to change that. As for not caring about how people feel, that is sad, but its your prerogative. Perhaps if in future it is your girlfriend or sister or friend or daughter, then you might understand. There is more to it than feeling uncomfortable. It isn't acceptable to me that a 14 year old girl won't go out alone because adult males comment on her body.

In reply to marsbar: I had a thought he perhaps ment he's not going to feel guilty if he's not doing anything wrong?

It is put in quite a blunt and unfriendly way, though.

In reply to Timmd:

Pretty awful writing style, which detracts from what is an point - that it is impossible to predict the effect of anything unsolicited. It is the responsibility of the giver, not the recipient, to ensure that comments would be welcome ...

Mr Marsbar too lazy to log her out and log in myself...

In reply to marsbar:
I think you need to think about that statement for a while.

In reply to Timmd:

The article in the OP is such a load of ****. The author lectures us on our own psychology, and tells us off for doing something which only a frustrated spotty adolescent may do in a fit of madness. Does she actually think that said spotty oaf would actually bother to read her blog?


It cannot be based on real life experience, as she includes a photo of herself.

Just another feminist whine about imaginary slights against women.

A load of old tosh.

In reply to Timmd:

Also...

Sarah Ditum; "I don't want to hear how sexy – or not – I look when I'm running, thanks."

You're on a winner with the former request love.

In reply to stroppygob: Thank you for giving your opinion on the appearance of both writers. How thrillingly relevant. Yes, this changes everything.

In reply to stroppygob:
I wonder why all the men who have posted here and "would never dream of giving a woman an unsolicited comment on the street" are so irritated by a blog which is anti men giving women unsolicited comments on the street? None of the women seem to be.

In reply to red.stiletto: Perhaps some men don't like the generalised approach "It seems that men are finally starting to realize that many women do not like street harassment", is that all men? No men realized that before? The men that didn't realize are now starting to realize? All men used to harass women in the street?

In reply to Sir Chasm: Yes I understand that and it grates on me too. It's an unfair generalisation that only serves to make all male readers feel a little defensive.

In reply to Alyson:

Saves time doesn't it? These generalised whinges against men (unspecified,) lecturing us about not doing what most of us would never dream of doing in the first place, are just odd.

If you want to lecture us on what bad people we are for being such sexist pigs as to do things which we have (never)done, then why should we not play up to those stereotypes you foist on us?

Back in t’kitchen lass, bring me my tea.

In reply to stroppygob: She never said all men are like that. If you read the thread someone asked what female users thought and she replied. In fact i commented before she did saying a similar thing.

We know the majority of men are decent and wouldnt treat girls like this but sadly there are exceptions.

Also by the title of the thread you mustve known what you were about to read so why even read the lecture 'about not doing what most of us would never dream of doing in the first place'.

Stereotypes have arisen from a number of men acting that way, i highly doubt 'playing up to those' is going to help anybody.

In reply to Elaine Bunn:

Due to me enjoying the vapid inanity of most feminist nonsense, this was an early morning chuckle for me.


Well if "men" are accused of stating they find women "hot' by these oafs, the damage is already done. They have stereotyped men.

Funny isn’t it, and I find myself being more and more convinced over the correctness of this idea, that those "lefty-feminist" types seek to end discrimination/stereotyping of women, by... errmmmmm... stereotyping and discriminating men.

In reply to stroppygob:

What makes you think there's an imaginary element? An attractive girl in my class at school once commented on feeling like being treated like a piece of meat. I'd be very surprised if she's never had comments made about her by male strangers in the street.

In fact thinking about it, some builders spring to mind who I remember commenting on women walking past.

So there you go, it's not imaginary after all. Just fancy that. Said classmate had a random bloke start to lick her neck on the bus, but hopefully that's pretty rare.

In reply to stroppygob:



http://melbourne.ihollaback.org/

....
I live near the beach which is great except that summer tends to bring out a lot of dudes in cars which means that generally I get whistled and yelled at often when I’m just out walking maybe two blocks from my house (this has been going on since I was 14, I’m 20 now). I was getting so sick of the way it made me feel that I went searching on the internet to see if anyone else felt the same anger and frustration, that’s when I stumbled on Hollaback and after reading the stories I’d decided next time it happened I’d stand up for myself. I didn’t have to wait long, I went for a walk along the back beach near the time ball tower a couple days later, maybe 5 or 6pm and I’d just thrown on whatever was on my floor, a green shirt and red shortish skirt (which looked terrible with my short bright blue hair, but I just wanted to listen to some music and go for a stroll). A lot of people cruise around this road and a big 4 wheel drive started heading my way with a couple guys in it, about 23-25, I partially missed what they yelled at first, I had my headphones on. But when they pulled up about 2 metres away they said “close your legs ya slut!” which is kind of hard when you have to move your legs to walk. So I flipped them off and pulled a face at them to take back some kind of power, he laughed in a taken aback way and finished off with a “No f*ck you, you blue haired f*ck!”. Although I was still angry he’d ruined the calm of my walk, for once I felt like I’d defended myself, in a small way but it made me feel less like a victim.
....

I'm still stuck on this word imaginary.

In reply to Timmd:Yes, in essence. Just everyone keep their head down and say nothing, who knows who's been mistreated in what way. Actually I won't talk to any woman in the street, as afterall there is too much 'baggage' and history of gender discrimination, regardless of my own intentions or actions. 

My girlfriends problem with the article is that it makes all women out the be feeble and weak, and how can one woman claim to know what is happening in every other woman's mind. You can't go through life thinking, "what if he's going to stalk me afterwards", if someone pays you a compliment just say "thanks" and get on with your day. There are more important things to be thinking about and getting on with. "Where did you even find an article about this" she said.

In reply to Timmd:

Did you actually write that blog yourself Timmd? Your posts here are very simmilar in linguistic style to the blog.

In reply to stroppygob:

I would have thought the author would struggle to be specific about the men she's referring to. I very much doubt she stops and asks for names and addresses. But just because it isn't all men doesn't mean it isn't a problem, and therefore there's nothing odd about wanting to discuss it. I just think she should be careful not to generalise from 'the type of man who would do this' to 'men'.

I don't understand that attitude to be honest. What do you gain by 'playing up' to being a sexist pig and how does that then distinguish you from a sexist pig? If you go through life demeaning women then say 'I'm just playing up to a stereotype', all you're really doing is reinforcing the stereotype.

You're fat enough already dear.

In reply to Alyson:

That's a lovely reply, thanks Alyson.

Can I ask you, do you think it's a "great bit of writing"? To be honest I think it's a crap bit of writing which serves both men and women badly, it's divisive and meaningless.

Back to you dear.

In reply to stroppygob:

I'm not sure it's possible to be both.

In reply to Timmd: It isn't a great bit if writing at all. It's convoluted, long winded and makes far too many asumptions. At the very least a great bit of writing needs a start, middle and end, and this really just blends into one long sermon. I have tried to read it three times and have still not go to the end. She could have said all this far more effectively in 800 words or under, not the 1800 that she currently graces us with.

In reply to Frank the Husky:
It's interesting that you haven't got to the end, but still know that it could have been written more succinctly. Full marks for clairvoyance.

In reply to Timmd:



Merging both posted articles (the original and the runner) into one, here is my take:

1) In both cases the problem is people calling out something to a stranger, and the stranger taking offence or being given fear by it.

2) This is not a gender issue - a bloke running or cycling round here is quite likely to get "witty' comments from some people, and abuse hurled at them from others. Sometimes it's even comments on appearance from girls. [1] Likewise, ask a guy with a ponytail, or anyone who dresses as an emo/goth, about the abuse they get on the streets in some places. In all cases, some members of society give a lot of verbal that they probably consider to be the highlight of witty banter, but however this has an effect ranging from annoyance to outright fear on the receiver.

One could succinctly address this with the blog post "Do not address person(s) unknown to yourself outside the bounds of customary civility as your words may have an effect other/worse than you imagine" but instead the author turns it into 25 paragraphs of rambling tosh with more than a hint of preconceived bias along gender lines.

One almost suspects that their primary motivation is to satisfy some deep seated need for their opinions to be validated by the replies form like minded progressive feminist atheists. I haven't trawled through the hundreds of replies to the blog post, but I can imagine what they're like.

[1] Once (highlight of my day) a pair of young ladies even told me I looked "well sexy" when I went running past. So I guess these means that I can take offence, and my views cannot be discounted along the usual lines that I am a bloke.

In reply to Timmd:

Can't believe you are trying to have this discussion on here! I'm sure last time this was discussed there was a predictable row that went along the lines of:

Most female posters "Doh, this stuff is obvious, of course its unpleasant harassment and I don't like having to put up with it"

Most male posters "You are stereotyping me/being over sensitive/go make the tea"

I think the article is appallingly written but the points it raises are valid.

In reply to Snoweider: I agree with this 100%

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:


How would you feel about a man, who was bigger and stronger than you, giving you a compliment on your appearance with an obvious sexual interest?

I think that is a fairer comparison, because there is that imbalance of physical power, and also, because many women don't have a lack of male sexual interest, so male sexual interest can end up being a nuisance, rather than a treat.

I personally feel that the originally article is very sad, and that MORE men who have no underlying agenda should complement ALL people (both male and female) so that the pesky pests who aren't very nice get more diluted. I'd like to teach the birds to sing, in perfect harmony, in fact.

In reply to Timmd:


Not really. I had a random stranger put his penis in my mouth (well, against my lips - my mouth was closed as were my eyes) when I was lying on a sofa in a pub one day.

I've also had a random person grab my breast as they walked past me. Most women I know have also experienced similar things, by odd, weird mental people....

In reply to anonymouse:

...and why did I not get to the end of this drawl? Because it is not written succinctly enough. More succinct writing means people want to get to the end, instead of making them feel like they're wading through the same stuff written in several different ways.

In reply to Timmd: I knew this would end up on here and I predicted the results too!!

That Sarah Ditum article, why mixed everything together surely there's a massive difference between "Keep it up, love!", "You look great!" and some of the other things shouted.

I can see that it might be threatening, but also isn't it the way things are perceived and you're reaction to it.

I've been called a Geordie bastard and laughed it off.

I've met two girlfriends by telling them they looked sexy and one who I asked what do you think of sex. All a bit dodgy things to say but we got talking and decided we liked each other enough to have a couple of years relationship.

Isn’t it time women started being strong and not take offence at everything. I got a nasty look from some bitch ‘cos I held the door for her recently, I’d have done the same for a bloke, because I have manners.

Some massive generalisations her but is this any worse than the original article?

Obviously people should not feel threatened on the streets but surely the fear of upsetting someone shouldn't stop you talking to people in the street.

In reply to tlm:

Laying on a pub sofa with your eyes shut during the day!!

How decadent!!

You should have bitten it.

In reply to stroppygob:

I don't think it's a great bit of writing, but it isn't meaningless. I wouldn't dismiss anyone's thoughts on their own experiences in life as meaningless. Presumably she doesn't - as I don't - get yelled at randomly by strange women, so examining why some men do this has relevance although she could have done it a lot better. I agree she creates division with her generalisations.

You said what is the point in discussing something which only spotty adolescents do, but then you felt the need to give your own opinion on her appearance, as well as on that of another writer who'd been linked to. I find it quite funny that you engage in the very behaviour you're claiming to never do. You're not an adolescent so that must make you massively spotty; I'm picturing some kind of measles warning campaign poster.

(FWIW it's not spotty adolescents, it's inadequate grown men who are by far the worst offenders. Probably the same ones who yell abuse at male cyclists because they, too, make them feel inadequate.)

In reply to krikoman:

Ha! That made me chuckle. Was 'what do you think of sex?' your opening question? In the context of a street harrassment discussion I'm sort of imagining you asking some girl in the bus queue

In reply to krikoman: "surely the fear of upsetting someone shouldn't stop you talking to people in the street."

No but surely it should stop one making sexual comments to random women on the street?

In reply to Alyson:



LOL!! Touche, nicely put.

I was deliberately playing up to the very stereotype I was describing as a way of emphasising the point I was making, (I think you know this.)

I can do "inadequate grown man" too if you like, but I draw the line at spotty.

But, why does it have to be " inadequate grown men"? I do not think it does. It can be grown men who know no better, who have been brought up in a culture where this is acceptable, it can be low intelligence or mentally ill men too. It could be men who have been dominated by women all their life and are taking a chance to express themselves. It can be done in ways which are intended as complimentary, even if it is not received as such. It can be done in a friendly way. It doesn't have to be only done by " inadequate grown men," at all.

As has been said, the author has taken it upon herself to define what women want/think/feel, and how men should act/think/feel.

The gym I use has many fit and healthy young women, (praise the lord it makes exercise so much more pleasant,) many of them love compliments from other gym members. A lesbian couple I'm friendly with love hearing from men how attractive and hot and fit they are, even when those men do not know they are on the other bus.

In reply to tlm:

Not you as well!

http://grammarist.com/usage/complement-compliment/

In reply to Snoweider:

I think this is maybe the different between the way women see it and men see it.

I don't see many valid points, but the women seem to think that if she talks about her experience and feelings that somehow makes it valid.

But this is validity in a huggy way, not a logical way.

When she says "My take on chatting up women you don’t know is pretty simple: in most cases, don’t." I can't even how you could make the claim that it is 'valid' because she's just expressing a (fairly strange IMO) opinion, it cannot be valid in a recognised sense but her expression of it could be valid in a huggy way. If she then tried to make a claim that chatting up a woman you didn't know was sexual harassment, that could be tested for validity, although it would change the Friday Night Saturday Morning experience somewhat. But then she contradicts herself by saying that "there are social contexts in which it’s appropriate to just start talking to a total stranger: bars, parties, other places where people go in order to meet people. Places where, if someone doesn’t want to talk to you anymore, they can just leave."

I would guess she says this so as not to kill off the US dating scene that she is ensconced in but I would have said that if a bloke drove a woman out of a bar by being persistently over familiar, that would be sexual harassment.

So she creates an overly strict definition of sexual harassment and stranger etiquette and then produces some bizarre exceptionalism, for presumably local cultural reasons.

So it's not valid as it's self contradictory.

In reply to tlm:

I would call that sexual assualt, are you saying most women you know have been sexually assualted? Therefore most women are/have been sexually assaulted? 

In reply to stroppygob:

So in order to dispell something as a stereotype you live up to it? That doesn't so much emphasise a point as contradict it but I think you know this.

Now you've gone from 'it's only spotty adolescents who do this' to 'it's grown men who aren't inadequate but... <insert reason for said inadequacy here>'. This idea that it can be meant as complimentary even if it's not taken as such is silly and missing the point. Maybe the bloke shouting "nice legs love" across the street is doing so because he thinks I have nice legs but it is irrelevant compared to the bigger point that he thinks I should care about his opinion. That's why I suspect he'll be the same person who thinks as little of saying something rude/abusive to a stranger as something supposedly complimentary. It's a fairly aggressive way of interacting with the world. To some degree we probably all walk round idly thinking 'ooh, too fat... bad outfit... ffs stop smoking near your child... nice shoes.... wow, lovely hair... mmm, he's hot' etc but we don't feel the need to express all these casual passing thoughts to the strangers we're thinking them about.


THIS is proper funny. Are you honestly trying to tell me you have had some approximation of the following conversation with a complete stranger:

Stroppygob: Hey, you have a great ass!
Hot female: Wow, thanks very much.
Stroppygob: You're welcome.
Hot female: I love it when a stranger tells me how gorgeous I am, or singles out a particular part of my anatomy for attention.
Stroppygob: That is in no way shallow or sad. I'm glad to have validated your existence with my unsolicited comment.
(High fives all round)
Hot female: So what do you think of my boobs?

In reply to FreshSlate:

Probably - especially if you count flashing. Most times I've been 'sexually assaulted' I've probably forgotten about by now, as it happens such a lot and feels pretty trivial at the time...

In reply to Alyson:


Stroppygob is trying to be Barney from How I met your mother, isn't he? He thinks 'the book' is real life...

In reply to tlm: Ha! Legend...



...(wait for it)...




... DARY!

In reply to Alyson:

The thing is, I'm quite big, strong and brave. I was trying to imagine under what circumstances someone just randomly coming up to me and saying something about my appearance would feel uncreepy... I think even if it was a woman I would think they were a bit touched if that was the only thing they said... Why would someone ever want to do such a thing eh?

In reply to tlm: “Okay, pep talk! You can do this, but to be more accurate, you probably can't. You're way out of practice and she's way too hot for you. So, remember, it's not about scoring. It's about believing you can do it, even though you probably can't. Go get 'em, tiger!”


(I love HIMYM.)

In reply to tlm:

Because they are a man and what they think is of huge importance, and if we find it creepy or unsettling that's our problem not theirs and we're being too 'huggy' (apparently) and are probably frigid anyway. Fo shiz.

In reply to Alyson:

Who said I was "trying to dispel it"? I was playing up to it for comic effect,.




Some do, some don't.


Errrmmm... no, if I'd have done that I'd have said so, all I was saying is that some women appreciate comments on how good they look.

In reply to stroppygob:

You said you were 'emphasising' your point. But contradiction isn't emphasis.

Yes, the inadequate minority
Yes, the well-adjusted majority


How do you know? If that conversation never happened, if they haven't told you they appreciate the shallow compliment from a complete stranger, how do you know they like it?

In reply to tlm:

I'd think I would remember myself. So you and most people you know have been assaulted, where are you from?

In reply to tlm: I've been thinking it should be possible to compliment a stranger without it seeming slightly odd or creepy but I actually can't come up with a way. If you're interested in someone, the approach of 'Hi, my name's Jake*, I was wondering whether I could buy you a drink/take you for a coffee... ' doesn't really need a '...because you have such a pretty face' section inserting. If anything, that would be offputting.

If you're not interested in getting to know them, then why would you just pay a compliment and walk away? Yes, it's always odd.


(*In my scenario, Jake Gyllenhaal is asking me)

The men on this thread think that bumping into a girl in the street and saying "wow you're pretty" doesn't constitute sexual harassment. Why everyone is talking about ironclad examples of harassment and abuse is beyond me. A girl getting raped or flashed has nothing to do with complimenting strangers...

No one is denying that people do horrible things to eachother, but we are asking if complimenting a stranger is one of those things.

In reply to Alyson:

Can you not see a certain irony here that you are talking about a popular man who is well known for his physical appearance?

If someone said "hi I'm jake, I just wanted to tell you you have nice eyes", does it matter if they walk away or try to hook up with you? One is creepy one is not?

Does 'odd' require a blanket ban?

In reply to Milesy: I wouldn't walk up to him in the street and say 'I think you're really hot' because that would be weird. As that's the kind of behaviour being discussed I don't see much irony. As far as I have seen, nobody is arguing that finding someone attractive should be outlawed.

In reply to FreshSlate:

I'm originally from Reading, but have lived in Oxford, Wallingford, Northampton and Stoke.
It depends what you call assult, doesn't it? That wasn't my own word. How many women have had an unasked for grope in a nightclub, been flashed etc. I really wouldn't remember every grope from 20 years ago - much more exciting things than that have filled up my memory...

In reply to FreshSlate: Both creepy. If someone chats you up and makes an effort to get to know you, it's kind of obvious they find you attractive. If they open with 'Hi, I find you/your eyes/your face attractive' that's always going to feel creepy. Sorry.

In reply to Alyson:

I thought it would feel uncreepy if first of all, you were around someone for a bit first (waiting in a queue or something) and there was a bit of eye contact, smiling and then the comment/chit chat was something innocuous, such as about the weather first. I think after a bit of a warm up like that, if someone then said "I must say, your hair is the shiniest hair I've ever seen - what shampoo do you use?" it wouldn't seem too creepy.

In reply to Timmd: Could someone maybe clarify, if approaching a woman in the street to compliment them is classed as sexual harassement (and therefore presumably illegal), is it ok to pass a compliment to someone you're already interacting with, eg. someone on a checkout, waiter etc. and comment that you like the colour of their nails, or they have a particularly nice top on or whatever?

In reply to tlm:

How about "your hair smells lovely - what shampoo do you use?"

In reply to FreshSlate:

I think it is the fact that someone wants to comment about what you look like without bothering to get to know you in any way at all. I mean - I could be a right nutter and they want to tell me I have nice eyes? They've been looking at my eyes (and by inference at other parts of my body) without me realising? Sorry mate, that is a bit creepy! Why not just say something like "nice weather". That is far better...

In reply to Blue Straggler:


*runs.... FAST*

In reply to owlart: It would be an odd woman indeed who felt sexually harrassed by you saying you liked her nail varnish. I think you're safe on that one

In reply to Alyson: Although tlm's 11.17 post would appear to suggest they disagree with you.

In reply to owlart:

I don't know - nail varnish is:

1. Very far away from my personal bits.
2. Not actually a part of me.

I would also assume that any man complimenting me on my nail varnish would not have a sexual interest in me as a woman.

In reply to tlm:

Yes you could be a nutter, but so could lot of people we think we know, or have already interacted with. Its a risk we all take... lol. Its, ok to engage with a woman you like as long as its subtle is that right? "Its good manners to talk about the weather first".

In reply to owlart: You're kind of paying a compliment to something she has done (paint her nails a snazzy colour, choose a flattering top) rather than something she has genetically inherited (symmetrical features, pert breasts). It's a different category of comment.

In reply to tlm:

Could you explain this bit? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

In reply to FreshSlate:


No - just be interested in a person, rather than a body. If you are only interested in a body and not the person, you will seem a bit creepy to me.

In reply to Alyson: " It would be an odd woman indeed who felt sexually harrassed by you saying you liked her nail varnish"

Obviously you have never seen the US crime drama "Dexter"

In reply to Alyson:

Well one is a result of genetic accident and the other deliberate but at some level both are saying "you are sexually attractive" surely, which may or may not be harassing depending on the people and circumstances?

In reply to MG: If a man - a complete stranger - took time out of his day to stop me and tell me he liked the colour of my fingernails or the cut of my top, I wouldn't think he was saying I was sexually attractive!

In reply to MG:

Everything is far subtler and context dependent than any text message on ukc could ever convey. However, I think the message behind the original article was that many men have the belief that thier particular subtle set of circumstances/actions is the exception to the rule, when it usually isn't.

Of course, it is always dependent on the people and circumstances. In 0.00001% of cases, the bloke will pull it off and come across as charming and delightful.

In 99.9999999% of cases, the woman will smile, and laugh as though it is delightful, while inside feeling a bit tense and worried about what is happening.

Most women want to be loved and cherished for who they are, rather than lusted after for what their bodies happen to be.

One is "you are delightfully artistic" and the other is "I would like to pleasure myself with your attractive assets".

In reply to Alyson:

I must say, I would, maybe very wrongly, simply assume that he was gay. I was going to say this earlier, but thought it was far too much of an assumption. But then, I have never, ever been told such things by any straight guy, in all my many aged years...

In reply to Alyson:

OK - I think you might be mis-understanding some comments!

In reply to tlm:



That would be my guess too. I certainly wouldn't comment on a women's appearance if I had never met her, any more than I would a man's. It would just be wierd. Really surprised Alyson finds it OK.

In reply to tlm:

I'd think the same.

In reply to Timmd:

I didn't find anything "progressive" about the blog whatsoever. It seemed to sink easily into the "talk to me and I reserve the right to sparay you with pepper spray and yell 'stalker' at the top of my voice."

Very progressive.

We live in society. People interact. Assisting in the building of barriers is NOT progressive.

In reply to tlm:

Nicely put

In reply to the thread:

This is a curious conversation in a lot of ways. I thought the original article somewhat limited in that it addressed a relatively small subset of men who probably wouldn't be reading it anyway. Perhaps the clumsy wording of it has got some hackles up, because I'm surprised at the disagreement it's provoked.

I am firmly convinced that the vast majority of you normal, funny, lovely, micro-fleece wearing, slightly rugged, UKC-reading chaps know the difference between sexual harrassment and chatting someone up. I'm sure you would all get to know somebody - be it online or in person - and get a feel for how well you're being received before declaring an admiration for the particular shape and size of their backsides.

I'm also sure you abhor the kind of behaviour which is really being discussed here. The man who calls out a random comment to a passing woman, then follows her down the street if she doesn't give a reaction. The man who makes lewd comments to teenage girls to the point where they feel anxious about walking alone, or apologetic for their own female shape which they can't help having. If we're getting into the nitty gritty of at what point in a conversation it's ok to pay a woman a compliment then it's safe to say you aren't engaging in that kind of behaviour at all.

In reply to Rampikino:


I agree with this. It could have suggested alternatives - talking about something none threatening and innocuous. Why build fear? I like talking to strangers and do it all the time. And men and women aren't all that different when it comes down to it. We are all human and most people are pretty nice. It's the same sort of thing that means that people end up scared to hug children that aren't their own.

In reply to tlm:

Ah, I see, so because I said to someone that they had nice nails, that makes me gay? Thanks for telling me, I shall cease looking for a girlfriend immediately.

In reply to Alyson:

Indeed Alyson.

I complement people at work - male or female, but very unlikely to do it in the street. However, if there was a circumstance where I felt I needed to compliment a total stranger I certainly wouldn't want some blogger to be tutting at me and hinting that I was somehow violating their human rights or something daft.

Most people, I find, are generally kind and genuine. I complimented a colleague on a piece of jewellery today. She reacted very well. Just because I know her it doesn't mean that a positive response was guaranteed.

If we spend our time trying to build up barriers between people for fear of the perceived offence then we will spend our lives never talking to anyone while a bunch of no-neck thug stalkers get on and do what they always do anyway.

In reply to Alyson:

Well, since you both agree, clearly I'm just very mistaken in my sexuality and will make the necessary adjustments straight away!

In reply to Alyson:

But based on one comment froma stranger, it's perfectly ok to assume you know someone's sexuality? Really?

In reply to Timmd:

I was in the pub the other day, about to order my first drink when the bar maid said "wow, you know you have beautiful eyes?"

I felt all warm and fuzzy inside for a good while (probably the booze too). Anyway. It's completely unrelated to men complimenting women because there's no subtext of violence (which seems to be the main problem/intimidation)

However, its seems like a good way of randomly happiness-bombing someone. Ladies, drop some compliments and make someone's day

It's quite simple. Don't compliment anyone ever.

You all smell.

Thread ends.

In reply to owlart:

No, I wouldn't assume that at all but it would probably cross my mind based purely on previous experience. Just as a man approaching me to comment on my body would make me uncomfortable based on previous experiences of being followed, assaulted and intimidated.

Liking the colour of someone's fingernails doesn't make you gay. Telling them doesn't make you gay. Congratulate yourself on the fact that your compliment will have actually been a nice one to receive and won't have made them worry you were about to chase them to their car shouting 'Oi! Come back here! I only want to talk to you!' which was my last memorable encounter with someone with a very important opinion about my face.

In reply to Toby S:

Of roses?

In reply to Timmd:

http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/resources/statistics/sshstudies/

"More than 37 percent of female respondents have had a stranger masturbate at or in front of them at least once in public."

"Nearly 57 percent of women reported being touched or grabbed in a sexual way by a stranger in public. About 18 percent said they have been touched sexually at least six times."

"In a 2008 study of 811 women conducted by Stop Street Harassment, almost 1 in 4 women had experienced street harassment by age 12 (7th grade)"

In reply to Timmd:

I think the other thing about getting stuck on the 'giving a woman a physical compliment' is that it sort of forgets about all the other types of street harassment that women experience, and that this might be one of the underlying reasons for their discomfort and unease.

In reply to Alyson: I think (and I stress think*, because it really is a minefield) that the point is whether the giver of the compliment appears to be seeking anything in return.

For example, if you were walking down the street and smiled, and a man walking the other way said "What a gorgeous smile!" and carried-on walking, I would imagine that would make you feel good.

In reply to tlm: