/ Traffic calming measures

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Skol on 10 May 2013
Hi,
Has anyone any experience of campaigning for speed bumps in their local street?
My daughter was hit by a car this week, thankfully going below 20mph, and has minor injuries.
We have a number of speeding vehicles in our street, the registrations of which I am passing to the police.
I have spoken to the council who say that 'our street will score low on assessment, and has done in the past.'
I would appreciate thoughts on ways to raise our score for the assessment please.

Many thanks
pebbles - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Skol: not convinced speed bumps help. our street have them but we still get speeding cars - the kids who tend to go speeding down residential streets think of speed bumps like the bumps on a mtb track. On the other hand if its a road used by buses etc, the resounding kerchunk every time a bus goes over the bump in the early morning will drive you nuts.
johncoxmysteriously - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Skol:

> I would appreciate thoughts on ways to raise our score for the assessment please.

You need to kill one of your neighbour's children.

jcm

Trangia - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Skol:

This has been quite succesfull in a number of villages in my area

http://www.winchelsea.net/images/CSW.pdf

Good luck
Neil Williams - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Skol:

Do you really want speed bumps as over time they will cause wear on your car? I personally prefer more natural traffic calming, e.g. chicanes caused by parked cars, brought on by marking parking spaces in suitable locations.

They can also serve as a distraction. If the car was going <20mph, you won't slow them down much more.

Neil
Neil Williams - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Skol:

BTW - assuming you do mean "speeding" i.e. over 20/30mph depending on the limit, might you be able to encourage the police to spend a day there with the mobile camera?

Neil
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Skol)
>
> [...]
>
> You need to kill one of your neighbour's children.
>
> jcm

You beat me to it...
A Longleat Boulderer - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Skol:

As above... do you really think speed bumps are the answer?

My personal opinion is that they are a distraction. I am no saint when it comes to speed limits. However, in a 30 or a 40 zone I always adhere strictly to the limit or what is safe for a given scenario (whichever speed is lower).

The area in which I now live is littered with speed bumps and for me, they are pretty distracting. I find myself weaving to apply equal loads to both sides of my suspension and (particularly when dark) spending lots of time staring at the road surface looking out for speed bumps ... it definitely distracts from my perception of other hazards.


EeeByGum - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Skol: Do you know what the scoring criteria are? If not, find out and then you need to collect the evidence to prove your point. A speed survey and traffic count is a good place to start. Traffic counts are easy - just count the cars and score two for anything requiring HGV or bus licence. When you add everything up, state it as PCUs on your report. In order to do a speed survey, you must be discrete. If a car sees you holding a speed gun, they will slow down and hence your survey will be invalid.

Do surveys at peak hours (8-9am and 5-6pm) but also do it at sensitive times like school opening / kicking out times.

Good luck. Be reasonable in what you campaign for and bear in mind that the council have limited funds. Get your local councillors on side to further your aims and also the local press.
Rigid Raider - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Skol:

I have plenty of experience with this. Our street is used as a short-cut by drivers who race through to beat traffic lights on the main road. The campaign has been going on for 30 years with little success. County Highways have placed a smiley SID in the street and it has recorded cars cutting through at up to 70 mph. There are 72 houses in the street but around 1000 cars a day use it.

About nine years ago residents, with support from county Police, nearly got the street closed to through traffic until at the last minute a county councillor who claimed to be a supporter, intervened and got the scheme dropped. Nobody knows why he did it but we think a wealthy resident and fellow mason complained that he would have to drive an extra half mile to the golf course.

The Police are in full support and have even offered to train residents to use the county speed camera (when it's working) but the massive pile of questionnaires that have to be filled puts people off the training. Meanwhile the County says that we are langushing at the bottom of the league table of streets deserving traffic calming because we have only had one accident involving a pedestrian in 10 years - thus we are victims of our own success in keeping our kids off the road.

Since Police don't patrol any more, they encourage residents to do their work by phoning and reporting speeders and short-cutters. Using this facility we have successfully dealt with a couple of habitual speeders, both residents in the street. It works and it's worth keeping the number on your phone.

We will soon be given a 20 mph speed limit. We don't expect this will deter habitual law-breakers but it will give us the opportunity to dawdle through at 20 mph and block and hinder speeders as much as possible so that they stay on the main road next time.

Good luck, you need it!






richparry - on 10 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Skol)
>
> [...]
>
> You need to kill one of your neighbour's children.
>
> jcm

And teach the others the Green Cross code.
Skol on 10 May 2013
In reply to Rigid Raider:
Thanks for all the constructive help everyone:-).
A local Pcso is going to monitor with a speed gun.
I'm also collecting number plates of speeders.

Really Rich? Not even Peter Purvis could dodge at the speeds this lot achieve.
Ta, Skol
In reply to Skol: Glad your daughter's OK by the way.
phja - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Skol:

its a really difficult situation isn't it.

The small square speed bumps are useless...all but the smallest cars just float over the middle of them.

The larger ones only bother people who care about their suspension...which most "boy racers" don't

chicanes are just a challenge...more likely to cause accidents than prevent them.

speed cameras...effective but i find them dangerous...i tend to spend more time looking at my speedo than looking at the road!

How about all cars carry limiters a la lorries that use magnetic strips in the road or gps?
Skol on 10 May 2013
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
Thanks S to G:-),
She is probably the least traumatised by the experience !
Hope it never happens to anyone else.
Wouldn't mind too much but the speeders in our street all have kids too.
Ta, skol
Skol on 10 May 2013
In reply to phja:
Hi phja,
Tough one really. I think the answer is the really hard ramps that wreck your car. Might not stop all, but most will drive slower lessening the odds of a fatality.
Everyone would be sorry after an event, but it's too late then.
I really can't see getting anything done will be easy, but its now my mission!:-)
Ta, skol
Oceanrower - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Skol: I'm sure I'm missing something here, but if your daughter was hit by a car going less than 20 mph, what difference do you think speed humps would have made?
JCurrie - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Skol:
I thought many councils simply do not maintain the roads. That way the potholes, crap patching etc act as 'natural' speed bumps.
Enty - on 11 May 2013
In reply to Skol:

They put a speed hump about 20m away from my bedroom window. I'd rather educate little Ent on not going out of the front gate on her own and have the f*cking speed hump removed so the bin-waggon doesn't wake us up every morning at 5am.
How much is JCB hire for an hour?

E
Skol on 11 May 2013
In reply to Oceanrower:
You did ocean. The point of the humps or other measures would be to keep cars at less than 20 mph. Some do 25-30 plus. Think to that advert a few years ago of a child being run over at various speeds, with increasingly more serious injuries/ death.:-(
Rob Naylor - on 11 May 2013
In reply to Skol:

Speed humps are not the answer. There's now a fair body of evidence that not only do they wreck the tracking and wheel balnace of cars, but the extra vibrations cause roads to crack up more quickly and in some cases have affected the structure of nearby homes.
Skol on 11 May 2013
In reply to Rob Naylor:
Thoughts appreciated, but remain unconvinced . Sorry Rob.
Only 3 Hgv a week, the rest residents cars.
Structure of our house was nearly damaged irreparably with a maimed/dead child.
Skol
blurty - on 11 May 2013
In reply to Rob Naylor:
> (In reply to Skol)
>
> Speed humps are not the answer. There's now a fair body of evidence that not only do they wreck the tracking and wheel balnace of cars, but the extra vibrations cause roads to crack up more quickly and in some cases have affected the structure of nearby homes.

Not the answer to what? To making side streets less attractive as alternative thoroughfares?

I think you're missing the point, residential streets should be about people, not cars. If speed bumps etc are knackering car suspension then folk should just slow down more.
Enty - on 11 May 2013
In reply to Rob Naylor:
> (In reply to Skol)
>
> Speed humps are not the answer. There's now a fair body of evidence that not only do they wreck the tracking and wheel balnace of cars, but the extra vibrations cause roads to crack up more quickly and in some cases have affected the structure of nearby homes.

Maybe you could go slower over them??

E
Dax H - on 11 May 2013
In reply to Skol: I live on a rat run with a car passing every few seconds at peak times and last year the council changed the estate to a 20 zone and put speed humps in.
Nothing changed at all, the speed humps are the most anemic things I have ever seen.
They are so shallow that they might as well just be painted on the road :-(
LastBoyScout on 11 May 2013
In reply to Rigid Raider:

> We will soon be given a 20 mph speed limit. We don't expect this will deter habitual law-breakers but it will give us the opportunity to dawdle through at 20 mph and block and hinder speeders as much as possible so that they stay on the main road next time.

You don't need a 20mph sign to do this - it's an upper limit, not what you should be aiming for.

OP - Speed ramps aren't the answer, they are the work of the devil. Try for chicanes instead - I think they're much more effective.
Rob Naylor - on 11 May 2013
In reply to blurty:
> (In reply to Rob Naylor)
> [...]
>
> Not the answer to what? To making side streets less attractive as alternative thoroughfares?
>
> I think you're missing the point, residential streets should be about people, not cars. If speed bumps etc are knackering car suspension then folk should just slow down more.

Not missing the point at all. As others have said, chicanes and similar measures are more effective and don't damage either vehicles or the adjacent environment like speed humps do
Rob Naylor - on 11 May 2013
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to Rob Naylor)
> [...]
>
> Maybe you could go slower over them??
>
> E

I go very slowly over them, thanks. Not the point. They're an inappropriate but instant knee-jerk solution to the problem.
A Longleat Boulderer - on 14 May 2013
In reply to Rob Naylor:
> (In reply to Enty)
> [...]
>
> I go very slowly over them, thanks. Not the point. They're an inappropriate but instant knee-jerk solution to the problem.

Seconded.

Additionally I always get abuse in the form of tailgating, horns and flashing lights when I slop properly for speed bumps.

In fact on Saturday evening I was driving from Streatham Hill to Balham tube station to drop off the parents when I was overtaken on a section of road with cars parked on either side and ON a speedbump ... not talking a raised platform bump... I'm talking the 2 meter by 1 meter lumps in the road. I was doing about 15 mph and the other driver flew over the bumps with the suspension at full compression.

Chicanes for me too please.
Neil Williams - on 14 May 2013
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

"Additionally I always get abuse in the form of tailgating, horns and flashing lights when I slop properly for speed bumps."

The best designed type are the "cushion" ones which in any vaguely normal[1] car you can traverse at or slightly below the speed limit, but you'd be thrown up in the air if speeding.

[1] If you have a chavmobile Corsa with lowered suspension, we can all laugh. If you have a proper, decent sports car, we might show some consideration :)

"I'm talking the 2 meter by 1 meter lumps in the road. I was doing about 15 mph and the other driver flew over the bumps with the suspension at full compression."

The ones by me of that type can be taken at 25-30mph, but not any faster, without any problems. I guess they come in various sizes.

"Chicanes for me too please."

"Natural chicanes" made using things like planters and car parking seem best. Or on new housing estates just design the roads so you naturally can't use them quickly - deliberately bad sightlines for other road traffic (but as good as possible for pedestrians), lots of bends and narrowing etc does the job.

Neil
lummox - on 14 May 2013
In reply to Skol: Glad to hear your daughter is ok. The answer is very, very simple and is applied in some other European countries; 20 mph limit in all residential areas. Massive reduction in fatalities, quieter roads for residents. The chances of it happening with this shower of spunk in government is almost zero though..
Neil Williams - on 14 May 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:

Also worth mentioning that large speedbumps discourage public transport use, as their effect on a bus (especially at the back due to a lever effect) is much greater than a car. Another reason they're a bad idea.

I actually gave up going to work by bus at my old job because I was sick of being catapulted a foot in the air on certain estates, it started causing back pain.

Neil
Neil Williams - on 14 May 2013
In reply to lummox:

20mph in genuinely residential areas, though not on through main roads with houses which IMO should remain 30. In the end, a bit of road sense needs to be shown, which may include on such roads ensuring your driveway is gated if feasible and your children aren't on the road unaccompanied if they aren't old enough to understand.

If a kid runs out right in front of a car doing 20mph they're still going to get seriously injured. It just increases the chance they'll stop in time. It doesn't substitute for sensible parental supervision.

I don't know enough about the OP's case to know if any of this applies to them, BTW, this is just a general point.

FWIW, the best way to do residential 20s in new estates is to ensure the roads are windy enough that >20 isn't feasible. Cameras etc are a poor solution in comparison, though may be applicable to older estates where the road layout can't be changed sufficiently to make it work.

Neil
Jim Hamilton - on 14 May 2013
In reply to lummox:
> ( The answer is very, very simple and is applied in some other European countries; 20 mph limit in all residential areas. Massive reduction in fatalities, quieter roads for residents.

but somewhere like the London outskirts it's all surburban/residential , so it would take you forever to get anywhere.
balmybaldwin - on 14 May 2013
In reply to lummox:
> (In reply to Skol) Glad to hear your daughter is ok. The answer is very, very simple and is applied in some other European countries; 20 mph limit in all residential areas. Massive reduction in fatalities, quieter roads for residents. The chances of it happening with this shower of spunk in government is almost zero though..

If cars don't keep to 30 mph limits at the moment, what will make them stick to 20 limits?
lummox - on 14 May 2013
In reply to Jim Hamilton: I think we need a complete change in our attitude to driving and what we sacrifice in order to be able to sit in our cars.. before anyone starts, I keep two of the buggers on the road but cycle to work and try and limit my use of them as much as possible.

lummox - on 14 May 2013
In reply to balmybaldwin:
> (In reply to lummox)
> [...]
>
> If cars don't keep to 30 mph limits at the moment, what will make them stick to 20 limits?

A mixture of new road architecture, enforcement and change in what is socially acceptable ? 30 years ago, drunk driving and driving without a seat belt were rife- I hope driving above the limit in residential areas becomes pretty unacceptable in the same way..

Neil Williams - on 14 May 2013
In reply to lummox:

One way to do this is to stop treating people like 4-year-olds in non-residential areas. I find that in Milton Keynes people do stick pretty religiously to the 30s and 20s, because everything else is NSL and there are no unnecessarily limits.

This is aimed specifically at e.g. Derbyshire, Cheshire, Oxfordshire etc who are slapping unnecessary blanket 40s and 50s on all their single-carriageway A-roads rather than just "point limits" at specific dangerous locations.

FWIW, with the rollout of managed motorways, bringing the 80mph motorway limit back on the agenda would also be good. Motorways are fine for 80mph. If we want to engender respect for speed limits, they have to be reasonable.

Neil
A Longleat Boulderer - on 14 May 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:
> (In reply to A Longleat Boulderer)

> [1] If you have a chavmobile Corsa with lowered suspension, we can all laugh. If you have a proper, decent sports car, we might show some consideration :)
>
> "I'm talking the 2 meter by 1 meter lumps in the road. I was doing about 15 mph and the other driver flew over the bumps with the suspension at full compression."
>
> The ones by me of that type can be taken at 25-30mph, but not any faster, without any problems. I guess they come in various sizes.

Haha! My car is neither I'm afraid Neil! It's a totally standard Peugeot 106 GTi. However with three people in it and given the potholes that surround the bumps to make them even more aggressive... I cannot get over without scraping the catalytic converter under the car.

It may be worth pittance but I absolutely love it and have been to 10 countries in it. I hate giving it an unnecessarily hard time.

If I'm on my own, I can go over at about 25mph without too much trouble but I still would never do that given I only just ordered a replacement front antiroll bar thanks to an unscheduled meeting with a pothole.
A Longleat Boulderer - on 14 May 2013
In reply to lummox:
> (In reply to balmybaldwin)
> [...]
>
> I hope driving above the limit in residential areas becomes pretty unacceptable in the same way..

Agreed. And likewise I hope driving above the limit on the motorway becomes more acceptable. In a decent modern car in the right conditions... 70 is ridiculously low.
EeeByGum - on 14 May 2013
In reply to lummox:
> The chances of it happening with this shower of spunk in government is almost zero though..

It isn't a government issue. It is a council issue. Our estate has just been made 20mph complete with signs and road markings. Get on to the local council and specifically, your local councillors. That is what they are for.
lummox - on 14 May 2013
In reply to EeeByGum: I was under the impression that national speed limits become legal after getting consent in the HOC and HOL...
Neil Williams - on 14 May 2013
In reply to lummox:

They do, but Councils can introduce 20mph signed speed limits wherever they feel like.

Neil
lummox - on 14 May 2013
In reply to Neil Williams: Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I think that a 20 mph limit should be applied nationally in residential areas. Given the pronouncements made by Con transport ministers ans the S of S, that would seem very unlikely.
Sarah G on 14 May 2013
I think an answer in the singular isn't what is called for, but rather a multi-pronged approach; reduce speed limit in the res areas but also allow a reasonable less restricted limit and through-flow of traffic in other adjacent areas- after all, people use rat runs becuase it is the most efficient/quickest way of completing their journey. Being forced onto rat runs to avoid speed restrictions, bus lanes, bus stops, chicanes, humps etc doesn't help. Most "traffic calming" measures in fact, create and increase congestion- which is what road users are trying to avoid by using alternative routes. The other prong of the attack would be to up the education and supervision of children in terms of learning the green x code and safer use of push bikes on the road, and ensuring they are playing in an appropriate area; for example in my village I came home one day to find three youngsters playing footie in the street, right on a junction that gets bloody busy. They were yards from an open playing field, but preferred the street, although they did go when I warned them that the streets- and especially that corner- were about to get busy with people coming home from work, and suggested an alternative spot.

Sx
Neil Williams - on 14 May 2013
In reply to lummox:

The problem is what is a residential area. This is why it is best applied locally.

Another option may be for NSL in a built up area to become 20, then up to 30 in places just as you do for 40 now. But that would cause 20 not to be respected because it would become the case in places where it is not justified.

20 on through roads into towns would to me be a nonsense, not just for cars but also for public transport. If you choose to live on such a road, you accept your kids can't play in the street. If you want them to, choose a small residential street. These might actually be better as Dutch style "home zones" with pedestrian priority, in any case.

Neil
Neil Williams - on 14 May 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:

I expect those here are familiar with the 20 into Ambleside, which is routinely ignored because it is completely unnecessary, and anyone who attempts to comply with it seems to become a victim of aggressive driving by others.

Neil
Neil Williams - on 14 May 2013
In reply to Sarah G:

In my old estate I used to "rat run" a small back street to avoid massive speed bumps.

Neil
Neil Williams - on 14 May 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:

"If you want them to, choose a small residential street"

...or choose a 1970s style "backwards estate". The houses front onto a wide tree-lined footpath, the cars are around the back out of the way. Kids can play out front without any danger from vehicles. It all works very nicely.

Neil
Milesy - on 14 May 2013
My street has been riddled with large speed ramps and it makes no difference to the speeds at all. They have covered the pavements with bollards at the ramps as well which prevent people parking cars outside their own house on the ramps which actually makes it easier to get over the ramps at a higher speed. With cars parked, other cars need to slow down to negotiate the ramps. So the street looks stupid with massive ramps and bollards, residents cant park a car on the pavement outside their own house (I am one of them) and there is no difference to car speeds but the property developers have now washed their hands of their responsibility.
Milesy - on 14 May 2013
In reply to lummox:
> (In reply to Neil Williams) Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I think that a 20 mph limit should be applied nationally in residential areas.

What if residential areas are also main roads? Not all residential streets are nice enclosed areas. A 20mph on many busy main roads would be a disaster for traffic and would cause more congestion and driver frustration.
Neil Williams - on 14 May 2013
In reply to Milesy:

Exactly. And it would cause the 20 limits to be ignored.

I am in favour of reducing limits in true residential areas, perhaps even to the extent of German/Dutch style "walking pace only" and absolute pedestrian priority in very small streets. I'm not in favour of blanketing through roads with unnecessary speed limits (yes, that's you, Derbyshire etc).

Neil
EeeByGum - on 14 May 2013
In reply to lummox:
> (In reply to EeeByGum) I was under the impression that national speed limits become legal after getting consent in the HOC and HOL...

Government write the rule book, but it is applied by local and regional councils or the highways agency.

By default, residential roads have a 30mph limit on them, but local councils are permitted to change the speed as required. This might also apply to busy villages, schools etc.

The point being, that local councils are better positioned to take a view on an appropriate speed limit in your local estate than central government.
Skol on 14 May 2013
In reply to lummox:
Thanks Lummox:-)

Mmm. I think that 10mph is the way to go in residential areas, with policing by residents passing numbers to police. Bumps would work in our street I'm convinced.

Yes Neil, I take the point. Our kids are responsibly monitored, but I do accept responsibility for her running out. Thought of nothing else really.
To be fair, they did not play in the road or were allowed to cross it.
Problem was that the 6 year old had a lapse of concentration, which I should have not been so naive about. Lesson painfully learned.

However, this does not excuse the lack of courtesy shown by some drivers in the street.( not the lady who was unfortunate to be in collision with my daughter).

So, to prevent any child,animal or elderly person being a victim , I am keen for any measures. The cars would slow, they are not your typical boy racers. I just think constant reminders by any measures will help.
captain paranoia - on 14 May 2013
In reply to Rob Naylor:

> As others have said, chicanes and similar measures are more effective

But they have other disadvantages (at least in the way they're usually implemented); causing grief for cyclists, causing accelerate/decelerate cycles between the obstructions, etc.

The road outside my house has a 20mph limit (due to the residential nature and the three schools along the stretch of road). I'd estimate the average speed is 35-40mph. There's a Gatso camera, but it's never been operational in the ten years I've lived here.

I'd go for an active camera, and proper prosecution of offenders (and effective driving bans); the message gets around...

Our situation is helped by the morons in the council road planning who decided to introduce punitive measures on a main road into the town centre (old A33), designed and built to A-road standard, now fitted with so many punitively-loaded traffic lights and traffic restrictions that everyone uses my road as a rat-run, despite the large, low speed humps, lane constrictions and speed limits. The volume of traffic down this unsuitable residential road means that it's falling apart, with foundation collapse, surface breakup and large potholes.
Skol on 14 May 2013
In reply to captain paranoia:
Yes.
I think all streets are different. I think chicanes present a challenge for speeders.
We live in a small town in north wales. The street isn't a rat run or overly busy, but it only takes one dickhead in the wrong place at the wrong time. Would love a gatso but can't see that happening. I like the flashing 10mph signs that show your speed. Some of those with a few words from a copper to those concerned may do it.

Jim C - on 14 May 2013
In reply to pebbles:
> (In reply to Skol) not convinced speed bumps help. our street have them but we still get speeding cars - the kids who tend to go speeding down residential streets think of speed bumps like the bumps on a mtb track. On the other hand if its a road used by buses etc, the resounding kerchunk every time a bus goes over the bump in the early morning will drive you nuts.

We need them in our street, mostly taxi drivers using us as a rat run, but the nearby street already has the truncated pyramid type and as has been said , most cars straddle them. but I like he look of these:-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/road-safety/2741765/Got-the-hump.html
Neil Williams - on 14 May 2013
In reply to Skol:

Fair enough.

I would agree on the development of "home zones" - no pavements, pedestrian priority everywhere, cars at walking pace only - but that's only really viable on very small residential roads.

A Google Image search will show what I mean.

Neil
Neil Williams - on 14 May 2013
Neil Williams - on 14 May 2013
In reply to Jim C:

I think you have to be careful with the term "rat run". Some residential streets were never intended for that and the term does properly apply, but an awful lot of people complain about a through road being used as a through road. That's just using a road for its legal purpose.

Neil
ads.ukclimbing.com
grommet on 14 May 2013
In reply to Skol: sorry to hear about the accident. I'm interested to hear what happens when you pass reg nos to the police. Our area is now a 20 zone which very few adhere to. Prior to that we had a polite word with a few neighbours and asked them to slow down on the cul de sac.(We don't have pets or kids). We ended up having a stand up row with one of them. He has slowed a bit but still goes too fast. His son crashed into the back of another car outside our house at Christmas. Pity it wasn't him. Another one, an ex copper clipped someone's car on same bend and didn't stop! We know who they all are and could pass nos on but not sure there's any point.

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