/ Not enough quick draws

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Craigyboy13 - on 20 May 2013
Just bought my first rope yesterday. I already have 5 quick draws and a few slings and 4 screwgates.

My question is if I'm climbing sport and I'm on a route with more than 3 bolts would it be ok to use 2 screwgates on the anchors instead of 2 quick draws? So I could so a route with 5 bolts?

I couldn't see why not but just double checking?
3 Names - on 20 May 2013
In reply to Craigyboy13:

Yes
3 Names - on 20 May 2013
In reply to rocky57:

Yes
derryclimbs - on 20 May 2013
In reply to Craigyboy13:

yes
rocky57 - on 20 May 2013
In reply to Vince McNally:

Yes.
needvert on 20 May 2013
In reply to Craigyboy13:

What I've done:

If you have skinny slings, could use the 4 screwgates and 2 slings to make 2 extendable draws.

I prefer to use those at a two bolt anchor, rather than just two screw gates.

Cheese Monkey - on 20 May 2013
In reply to needvert: Or use 2 screwgates, a sling to equalise and a final masterpoint screwgate....
Craigyboy13 - on 20 May 2013
In reply to Craigyboy13:

Thanks guys :)
Jonny2vests - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Craigyboy13:

Sometimes.

You wouldn't want to do that if the anchor was set back slightly. Try and avoid situations where the rope runs over loads of rock, especially at the top.

Also avoid if the bolts are set in such a way that the rope running between the screwgated bolts runs over rock. That rarely happens with QDs because that little bit of extension makes all the difference.
Keiran.A - on 20 Jun 2013
In reply to Craigyboy13:
more than a third of my quickdraws are alpine draws made from 7mm accessory cord with a double fishermans forming a 120cm loop. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4QfF-_gAZ4 dirt cheap, handy for rescues and lots of abseil tat. when extending, clip the loop with the knot for snag free extension. will need binning sooner than slings though.k
Jamie B - on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to Craigyboy13:

My advice would be to buy more quickdraws - you're going to need them soon enough.
Jamie B - on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to Keiran.A:

Alpine draws are dreadful for sport, they don't lend themselves to quick clips or dogging.
JimboWizbo - on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to Craigyboy13: I think I have about 16 quickdraws which have always sufficed, buy more!
CurlyStevo - on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to Keiran.A:
you'd be better using slings the 7mm cord once lengthened is weaker than most of your trad gear!
jkarran - on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

> Alpine draws are dreadful for sport, they don't lend themselves to quick clips or dogging.

You think? I love mine for working routes. Clipping them can be a pain though when the krabs have flipped.

jk
Jamie B - on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to jkarran:

So if clipping them is a pain what are the plus points? Must admit I'm struggling to see them - more cluttered/tangled on harness, harder to grab, likely to abrade against rock faster..
Fraser on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to Craigyboy13:

> I'm on a route with more than 3 bolts

If you're on a route with less than 3 bolts.....you're still bouldering ;)
EddInaBox on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to Fraser:

> If you're on a route with less than 3 bolts.....you're still bouldering

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=14772
I wouldn't try this with only a bouldering mat!
lithos on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

i agree - but consider the lengths - all short or mixed lengths. I usually have 1 alpine draw for sport in the bag incase of a non straight line to reduce drag but don't like them that much.

there are usually great bargains to be had on quickdraws in shops, on here but not on ebay!
Keiran.A - on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:
> (In reply to Keiran.A)
> you'd be better using slings the 7mm cord once lengthened is weaker than most of your trad gear!

more risk more fun! Only joking.

breaking strength for standard 7mm is about 10kN, so looped with a double fishermans id expect slightly more than 15kN which im comfortable with. as stevo says its not quite 22Kn. there are thicker cords or fancier materials if you want to go stronger.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Steve nevers on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to Craigyboy13:

You can pick up some very decent deals on QD's at the moment. Talking 50 for 5 or 6, I know Dick's Climbing are doing 5 x Spectre 2 QDs for 50, and you can pix'n'n'mix the sizes between 12cm/18cm/25cm. Hes also got 5 x Clog QDs for 40 if you want them for sport. Joe Browns and Ellis B have some great deals also, haven't looked at needle sports.
ashley1_scott - on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to Keiran.A:
> (In reply to CurlyStevo)

> breaking strength for standard 7mm is about 10kN, so looped with a double fishermans id expect slightly more than 15kN which im comfortable with.

It might be me being stupid but, if the breaking strength is 10kN and you are putting any kind of knot in it, it lowers the breaking strength. Hence why people say that a Fo8 knot is safer then a Bowline, as a Fo8 retains 80% of the ropes strength but a Bowline only retains 75%.

needvert on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to ashley1_scott:
> (In reply to Keiran.A)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> It might be me being stupid but, if the breaking strength is 10kN and you are putting any kind of knot in it, it lowers the breaking strength. Hence why people say that a Fo8 knot is safer then a Bowline, as a Fo8 retains 80% of the ropes strength but a Bowline only retains 75%.

He has already assumed the df decreases the strength of cord by 25%.

The difference between 75% and 80% is 1/20th of your full strength. That's not much reason to chose one knot over another. As far as tie in knots go, the reason people shun the bowline is mostly because the FoE is thought safer for non-strength related reasons (no stopper needed, last thread can be skipped, more familiar)
Keiran.A - on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to ashley1_scott:

not stupid at all. True, any knot will weaken the overall strength but where its formed in a loop your now working with two strands doubling its strength so you loose bit and gain a lot.
jkarran - on 24 Jun 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

> So if clipping them is a pain what are the plus points? Must admit I'm struggling to see them - more cluttered/tangled on harness, harder to grab, likely to abrade against rock faster..

Adjustable length, not fussy about gate direction since they're so floppy and being able to put your wrist into the sling for a low stress grip when pumped. The awkward hung up krab is sometimes a headache but one I can cope with.

jk
colina - on 24 Jun 2013
In reply to Craigyboy13: echo the person who said buy some more quickdraws,not that expensive really ...second hand maybe ? cheaper still....
would definatly be worth buying longish quick-draws which can be used 4 trad aswell rather than the short stubby draws which are really only good for sport imo.
Toerag - on 24 Jun 2013
In reply to Craigyboy13: Surely the person you're going climbing with will have some draws you can borrow to supplement your stock? In the long term, a 35m+ sport pitch (requiring an 80m rope) will have about 17 bolts judging by my experiences in Sardinia a couple of weeks ago.
Jamie B - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to colina:

> would definatly be worth buying longish quick-draws which can be used 4 trad as well rather than the short stubby draws which are really only good for sport.

Exactly. The OP is clearly just going through a sport-climbing "phase" and will inevitably in time move to the One True Path that is trad.




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