UKC

Ok, so I was reading this http://mikedoyle.ca/wordpress/?p=671 and it got me thinking about how reliable some of the slings that I use are.
For attaching myself to an anchor on alpine and multipitch climbs, including on hanging belays, I use a “poor man’s daisy chain” i.e. a 120cm sling with 2 overhand knots tied in it. One end of it is tied into the central loop of my harness. Depending on how much distance between myself and the anchor I want, I then put a screw-gate carabiner at the other end of the sling, or before either of the 2 knots, and then clip that carabiner into the anchor.

Is that safe?
I try to un-do the knots and re-tie them in a different part of the sling every once in a while, but not after every climb or after every day out climbing.

In reply to alps_p:

Nylon or dyneema?

In reply to alps_p:

If you're sure no slack can develop in it: Yes.

If you're not: No, use the rope and a clove hitch.

Personally I'd just use the rope anyway, it's one less thing to carry.
jk

In reply to alps_p:

Do you also tie in to at least one point with the rope?

I never understand people who don't

In reply to jkarran: I also use this for abseiling (I abseil using the "non-English" method i.e. stopper/friction knot on a carabiner clipped right into the central loop of my harness, and the belay device above the knot, on a sling which otherwise is used to clip into anchors)

In reply to Carless: no. Basically, I am only attached to the anchor with this sling.

In reply to alps_p: That's only OK if a temporary measure and not used for belaying etc. You may want to look at the Grivel Daisy Chain or the Metoloius PAS. Trouble is it is something else to carry and it can get in the way a bit.

In reply to alps_p:
These slings failed as they were left semi-permanently hanging for years likely UV damage and repeated falls caused the problem.

I would say loading dyneema against an overhand knot (so it wants to invert / slip) is probably quite a weak knot but I'm not aware of any tests. Seeing as just putting an overhand knot in dyneema pretty much halfs its strength, I'd expect this knot to quite regularly fail at less than 10kn when loaded in the manner you describe.

That said I wouldn't be too worried about using it in the abseil context you describe or for attaching to anchors at the top of a single pitch, but for multipitch belays I try and avoid it as a method of attaching to a single anchor (and if I do I back up the overhand with a second one).

In reply to alps_p:

Tieing in with the rope to at least one of the points takes very little extra time & stops you worrying about your sling

Someone died at Freyr a few years ago because he was only clipped to the belay by a sling and the leader took a factor 2

In reply to Carless:

Yes, also a nasty accident on the Capuchin when the belayer fell, snapped his sling, then fell again

In reply to Carless: thanks all for answers. sounds like I need to start tying in with a rope again. (again, because I used to do it, then someone showed me the method I've described and I immediately switched to using it as it's so simple - just a clip).

In reply to alps_p:

If you practice tying the clove hitch one handed you will get a rapid and safer way of attaching yourself in. I would go for the rope option, (stronger, stretchy, easy to adjust, already tied in, etc)

or just cough up and buy a daisy chain then just be careful how you attach with that

In reply to alps_p: Can I clarify what is and isn't being said here? If you are using a knotted sling to attach to an anchor while you set up an ab, which is what is said someway down the thread, then obviously you can't tie in with the rope?

I totally get the idea of tying in with the rope to the belay. But how else would you tie in to an anchor on say a multi-pitch ab? I too prefer the idea of the belay device on a sling and prussik attached to the belay loop and on multi-pitch abs find it invaluable as it's easy to clip the next anchor, test it while still attached to the abseil rope, and then get off the rope and start threading the anchor for the next pitch.

If this is dangerous then I'd stop doing it but I've seen plenty of others doing it especially guides?

Thanks

In reply to Tom Hutton:

You could use a Beal Dynaconnexion http://bealplanet.com/sport/anglais/longes-dynaconnexion.php which is a neat bit of kit designed specifically for this. One is on my long-term wishlist but I've had other more pressing things to buy.

Equally, you can make a dynamic rope cowstail from £3 worth of 8-9mm rope with is both far better and far cheaper than using a dedicated sling.

In the UK, I now routinely use a dynamic rope cowstail rather than a sling where I know I will need to abseil extensively. For situations where weight is critical or for abseils that aren't planned I will still use a knotted sling BUT I will be paranoid about keeping tight on it and avoiding any chance of shock loading it.

In reply to Tom Hutton:


It's not dangerous so long as you understand and respect the limitations. Don't use it in a situation where slack could develop in the sling and you'll be fine.

Incidentally, you can use the rope as an attachment to the belay while setting up an ab but it's a little untidy, just use one of the ends, untie and drop it once you're safely on the descender. Obviously you wouldn't choose to do it this way unless you were short of kit but you can.

jk

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

This.
I've been doing this for a couple of years now & its made me far quicker & more efficient at stances. I have enough that it goes round my waist with a screwgate; combined with a one handed hitch you've a lot of options. Also means on 'big' routes you've always got something bomproof if you have to leave something behind to ab from.

In reply to Tom Hutton:

Just to clarify. My comments were about climbing multipitch: sport, trad, alpine, whatever...
Tie in with the rope to at least one point. Why wouldn't you? Takes an extra 20 seconds and you're carrying 50m+ of it

Abbing off - no problem clipping in with a single sling: don't (and why would you?) shockload it

In reply to alps_p:

DMM broke consistently broke 11mm dyneema slings with an overhand knot in them with factor ONE falls (factor 2 breaks dyneema without the knot).

http://dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/how-to-break-nylon-dyneema-slings/

This might not happen if you substitute a suitably squishy human for the steel drop weights, but it would be a pity to find out to the contrary.

Note too, even in the absence of breakage, that dyneema imparts considerably higher loads to the anchor.

Another issue is that some slings have a lot more dyneema than others. Many slings are a hybrid weave of nylon and dyneema. Dyneema is white and doesn't take dyes, so you can eyeball the dyneema content from the "whiteness" of the material.

I'd never heard of a sling used for anchoring breaking in a real climbing situation, but this thread contains two references to such incidents. If anyone has more detailed references, I'd be interested in seeing them.

I think the real point is not, "yer gonna die fer sure if you anchor with slings," but rather, given a spectrum of choices with (at least for skilled practicioners) almost no difference in speed or efficiency, why would one opt for one of the suboptimal alternatives? If you think this way, then you'll always use the climbing rope as the load-bearing connection to a belay anchor.

When it comes to tethers for rappels, the same type of thinking suggests using a nylon sling rather than a dyneema one, or the nylon Sterling Chain Reactor rather than a dyneema blend PAS.

In reply to rgold:
When it comes to tethers for rappels, this (http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/53/lanyard_tests_v6.pdf ) suggests using a piece of dynamic rope with knots at both ends. I bought 1.2 m halfrope (8mm) for this purpose.
A climbing partner dislikes having a permanent cowstail and fashions one from a sling whenever he rappels. Whatever works for you.

For attaching yourself to the anchor, a clove hitched rope is the best option in most cases: Dynamic, adjustable, no extra material necessary.

In reply to rgold: the slings breaking from factor one falls were with no dynamic rope in the system. Its not dangerous to use a sling to equalise belay points partially as its doubled / trippled up.

In reply to alps_p:

Just dont fall on it.

When you tie it, leave 2cm slack in one side of each loop. Easier to clip and when weighted the force isnt direct onto the knot.

In reply to alps_p:

One point that I'd add into the mix is that repeated abseiling on a larks-footed sling doesn't seem to be too good for the abseil loop. I've retired two as a probable consequence of this and now attach with a screwgate.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Sure, but not the point. The OP asked about connecting the belayer directly to the anchor with slings, and the discussion veered to the use of slings as tethers for rappelling.

In reply to rgold:
I should add that the European trend to belay the leader directly off the anchor sometimes places the belay device/munter carabiner in a very short loop of a sling clipped to the anchor. A factor-two (or, for that matter, a factor-one) fall directly onto the anchor might conceivably break the connecting sling, with obviously catastrophic results.

In reply to rgold:
Ok i thought you were trying to make a more general point " If you think this way, then you'll always use the climbing rope as the load-bearing connection to a belay anchor"