/ Islamophobic Attacks on the increase

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Blizzard - on 28 May 2013
Woolwich seems to be the catalyst for this, but is it a result of the marginalisation of the White British male? ( I read somewhere that immigrants now have reached 13% of the UK population)

Or perhaps is it an excuse to rebel against the establishment in these tough economic conditions partly caused by the failure of politicans to tackle key political issues?

Or have I over simplified the whole 'backlash' ( I do not intend to open a can of worms here, just interested in your opinion)
Kemics - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

Will Muslims become the Jews of the 21st Century? (as stigmatised cultural scape goat)

Bruce Hooker - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

> I do not intend to open a can of worms here, just interested in your opinion)

Of course you don't, who could imagine such a thing?

:-)
Blizzard - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Kemics:

I don't know. The whole issue is complex. I believe people are looking for a reason to rebel due to current economic pressures and the failure of our politicians who talk a great deal, but dont deliver solutions the majority of electorate agree with. ( I could be wrong, but our current politicans appear to live seperate lives to the rest of us and seem so out of touch)

Oliiver - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Blizzard: how about we go to Pakistan or Afghanistan and push Christianity down their throats. They wouldn't like it.
IainRUK - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Oliiver: Have you really had it pushed down your throat?

I can't see how the immigration issue is related to islamophobia..

For a start I thought all our immigrants were those pesky Poles.. who tend to be catholic if anything.. so how many of those 13% are muslim?

It just seems an excuse to be an ignorant racist..

Oliiver - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Blizzard: did I mention race......? 'Sigh' we all know Afghanistan and Pakistan are Muslim countries.
Blizzard - on 28 May 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

You cant see how immigration is related to islamophobia? Well, there's the clerics for starters...

The 13% figure was simply to emphasize just how many people are from foreign climes. Dunno why it popped into my head, as usual the fact was planted there by a newspaper somewhat recently, and no it wasnt The Mail.

Perhaps what is happening is simply racism. Not a lot you can really do about that, it never goes away, it perhaps hides itself away at times.
Oliiver - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Blizzard: Ian there's no such thing as racism - as there's only the human race.
IainRUK - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
> (In reply to IainRUK)
>
> You cant see how immigration is related to islamophobia? Well, there's the clerics for starters...
>
> The 13% figure was simply to emphasize just how many people are from foreign climes. Dunno why it popped into my head, as usual the fact was planted there by a newspaper somewhat recently, and no it wasnt The Mail.
>
> Perhaps what is happening is simply racism. Not a lot you can really do about that, it never goes away, it perhaps hides itself away at times.

Looking at recent figures 190,000 are from the old C'wealth or the EU.. 170,000 from the New C'wealth (more from India than Pakistan)..

A lot of these terror attacks have been British Born muslims.

I don't think immigration is an issue at all in this respect. I can see why the unemployed worry, thats a different issue.
IainRUK - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Oliiver: Incredible statement.. I suggest you go and read some history.. the fact the white man thought the black man needed keeping in slavery for his own protection suggests we were more than slightly racist.. the fact that vasts swathes of indigenous people were massacred by european colonisers could again be considered slightly racist..

Of course there is such a thing as racism.

Its interesting how many people who have been an immigrant are anti-immigration.. I think we realise how its not all the bed of roses people think..

Oliiver - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Blizzard: not so liberal future thinking as I thought Ian. Liberalists are dinosaurs on their way to becoming extinct.
In reply to Oliiver:
> Liberalists are dinosaurs on their way to becoming extinct.

What's a "Liberalists", is it the opposite of a literalist? Is there a club and can I join?
IainRUK - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Oliiver:
> (In reply to Blizzard) not so liberal future thinking as I thought Ian. Liberalists are dinosaurs on their way to becoming extinct.

What does that mean?

Generally we have become more liberal over time, so I do think the future isn't extinction..

I'm consistently pro-immigration, as an immigrant it would be pretty wrong of me otherwise.
John Rushby - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Oliiver:
> (In reply to Blizzard) Ian there's no such thing as racism - as there's only the human race.

I agree with the latter part, sadly as the strange fruit bears silent testimony, there is a depressing history of the former.
Oliiver - on 28 May 2013
In reply to IainRUK: just like communism eh?
IainRUK - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Oliiver: Quirky sound bite number 2.. bullshit statement number 2 also.. how is communism on the increase?

I replied to your posts with figures.. you could show the intelligence to back up your quirky sound bites with figures.. just an idea?
Eric9Points - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

I think it's a combination of a number of factors which inter relate in a complex and only partially understood manner.

a) There are a lot of baw bags in our society who like to have someone to hate.
b) They are often stupid. They know this and find that it is easier to identify people with dark skins and funny clothes as "different" and so find them convenient hate figures.
c) Media hysteria about Islamists and endless reports on the telly of people with beards and funny clothes means that even the most stupid of them can't forget what they look like and supplies them with ready made excuses to hate people who look a bit like the folk on the telly.
d) With the weather getting warmer, many baw bags can think of no nicer way of spending a Summer's evening than burning down mosques or giving people with beards and funny clothes a good kicking. It's good healthy excercise provided there are more of you than there are of them.
e) The added bonus of getting talked about by hand wringing pseudo intellectuals boosts their ego and makes them feel special thus encouraging more Mosque burning etc.Said pseudo intellectuals also provide the baw bags with a huge and complex list of ready made excuses for the mosque burning etc which can come in useful during mitigation at the end of the trial for arson/GBH.


IainRUK - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Eric9Points: Loved the response today in Yorkshire.. invited the EDL protestors in for tea and a game of football...
Timmd on 28 May 2013
In reply to Oliiver:
> (In reply to IainRUK) just like communism eh?

Politely, what ARE you going on about?
Duncan Bourne - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Oliiver:
> (In reply to Blizzard) Ian there's no such thing as racism - as there's only the human race.

Could you possibly email that to the family of Stephen Lawrence?
I am sure they would appreciate your insight.

Perhaps what you meant to say was...
There SHOULD BE no such thing as racism because there is only one human race and we all share the same genetic heritage. Which I would heartly agree with but sadly there are some on this planet who do not share that view.
Oliiver - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Blizzard: put it into context Ian. Communism was on the rise, till we all realised it didn't work - just like liberalism. Ian, I ask you this, what are your views on immigration? Should it be capped? .
Timmd on 28 May 2013
In reply to Oliiver: Liberalism in what form? What do you mean by liberalism? Just all people being equal, open immigration to the UK, or both those and other things as well?

It's quite an all encompassing word, i'm not just trying to be pedantic or argumentative.
wintertree - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

> Perhaps what is happening is simply racism. Not a lot you can really do about that, it never goes away, it perhaps hides itself away at times.

Not even racism but just "not one of us" - easier if people look and dress different, but the scum are equal rights haters - the posh people with money, gay people, people who are clever and work at school etc. etc.

I worry that the nutters coming out to play makes it all the harder for people to air a more grown up dislike of people of any race pushing any belief system based on faith and invisible sky people, and mindlessly brainwashing their children and others into their dark ages mindset. At a time when we should be leaving fairy stories behind the law is gradually being bent towards preventing frank and open discussion here, as seen in Ms May's latest plans. Roll on enforced secularism at the state level I say. Vive La France. Etc.
IainRUK - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Oliiver: Within the EU no.

It is controlled at least. It is a pain in the arse to get in, hugely complex, hugely expensive. How many visa processes have you been involved in?

There is no evidence at all 'liberalism' is not working.. Most of the worlds most successful, happy, contented nations are the more liberal side of the spectrum.
IainRUK - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Timmd: Aye Timmd.. I wouldn't bother, there is social conservatives and fiscal conservatives.. but such issues won't fit into his simplistic view.
Oliiver - on 28 May 2013
In reply to IainRUK: Ian, because I'm simple and narrowminded, can you tell me what Nick Clegg has done for the UK whilst in power?
Oliiver - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Blizzard: For the good of the country ?
Duncan Bourne - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Oliiver:
> (In reply to Blizzard) Communism was on the rise, till we all realised it didn't work

careful you will have Gunrun coming along to sort you out ;o)
IainRUK - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Oliiver: As I have said many times.. read Blairs memoirs.. he highlights what would happen and what did happen. The liberal party were a party of the peoples conscience.. a lovely idea.. could say what we wanted them to say.. yet in Government you have to make unpopular calls.. and they could no longer be the idealistic party. Its easy to stand there saying 'we won't do this' when you aren't in power.

What he actually has done, I'm not sure, we'll probably never know but you can bet your bottom dollar it would have been a lot worse with just the Cons in power..
ads.ukclimbing.com
Oliiver - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Blizzard: so to put it into context Ian - nothing. Oh I'm mistaken, they went back on their word about university fees.
IainRUK - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Oliiver: Have you read what I said..
IainRUK - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Oliiver: Everyone involved in academia knows tuition fees are needed... the Scots will soon change.. how they can afford no fees is very strange.. and how long they will maintain that stance for post independence will be very interesting.

Tuition fees were inevitable and wholly necessary.. the debate was how much..
Duncan Bourne - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
> Woolwich seems to be the catalyst for this, but is it a result of the marginalisation of the White British male? ( I read somewhere that immigrants now have reached 13% of the UK population)

I fail to see how the dominant demographic (ie white British males) can possibly be marginalised by a mere 13% of immigrants from various countries. Except in their dreams.
Unless you mean in specific instances where small business folk are being potentially undercut by foreign workers willing to work for less than the going rate, which is surely what the whole free market thing is about?

>
> Or perhaps is it an excuse to rebel against the establishment in these tough economic conditions partly caused by the failure of politicans to tackle key political issues?

Always a popular one.

Also people like scapegoats and easy to identify targets. In the 50's & 60's it was West Indians coming over and taking the jobs we didn't want, in the 70's & 80's it was Pakistani immigrants and Irish Catholics. We now have the advantage of being able to combine stealing jobs and terrorism under a convenient religious heading that avoids the need to fall back on the racism card
Jimbo C - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

There will always be a group of a certain type of people who I shall refer to as 'nobheads'. The enjoy nothing more than showing off in front of their nobhead mates by picking on funny looking men with brown skin and beards who the sh*t stirring sensationlist media have labelled as mongers of holy war.

Paranoia seems to be setting in. I heard a phrase once that sums it up nicely 'a person is smart but people are stupid'. Hopefully all the nobheads will forget about it the next time Prince Harry farts in front of the cameras.
JoshOsh on 28 May 2013
In reply to Oliiver:

I've noticed you like to use the word liberal a lot, particularly as an insult but you don't really seem to know what it means. I suggest you check out the Wikipedia article on liberalism so you can at least engage in some informed debate.

The current economic model is based on liberalisation, that is, neoliberalism which is basically the belief in the free market, privatisation, rolling back of the state and so on (Harvey 2005). Most of the world follows this neoliberal model. There have been significant, serious issues, especially the financial crisis which was partly brought on by deregulation. It's also brought problems in developing countries, limiting options for education and employment ( eg Jeffrey and Dyson 2010; Jeffrey 2008).

There's also classical liberalism: "advocating civil liberties and political freedom, limited government, rule of law, and belief in free market" (Wikipedia). In the USA, liberals are regarded as left wing but in fact Republicans are following classical liberal ideology.

Your suggestion that liberalism doesn't work doesn't make sense because as far as I can tell, we still have " free and fair elections, civil rights, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, free trade, and private property" (Wikipedia).
dsh - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Jimbo C:
> (In reply to Blizzard)
> I heard a phrase once that sums it up nicely 'a person is smart but people are stupid'.

That was Agent K. in Men in Black
John Rushby - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Oliiver:

The chances of anything coming from Mars are a million to one, I say. But to be safe, climb inside a synthetic doss bag, wrap your head in tin foil and slide under the cooling ripples of the goldfish pond, breathing through a straw.

HTH


Oliiver - on 28 May 2013
In reply to Blizzard: I make reference to social liberalism - not the liberties in our political structure.
Steve John B - on 29 May 2013
In reply to Jimbo C:
> (In reply to Blizzard)
>
> There will always be a group of a certain type of people who I shall refer to as 'nobheads'. The enjoy nothing more than showing off in front of their nobhead mates by picking on funny looking men with brown skin and beards who the sh*t stirring sensationlist media have labelled as mongers of holy war.

Indeed. There is also another type of 'nobhead' with brown (and sometimes black, and very rarely white) skin, who enjoy killing people who the sh*t stirring sensationalist preachers have labelled as enemies of Islam.

Personally I reckon someone being hacked to death with meat cleavers is worse than one failed petrol bombing, regardless of the politics/nobheadedness of those responsible.
JoshOsh on 29 May 2013
In reply to Oliiver:

I'm just curious as to the reasons for your dislike of social liberalism*. In fact, that's the model followed by much of the West, despite the best efforts of the coalition.

*It's basically a belief in a market economy with civil liberties etc but the government must address "economic and social issues such as poverty, health care and education" (Wikipedia). Seems like a good idea to me.
Ramblin dave - on 29 May 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
> Woolwich seems to be the catalyst for this, but is it a result of the marginalisation of the White British male?

Here's a picture of some white British males whose views are being ignored in favour of one-legged black lesbian single mothers in our political correctness obsessed age:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19475248
Ash_Johnson - on 29 May 2013
In reply to Eric9Points:


Sorry, I must have been too busy watching the parts of the news depicting the cowardly murder of a British Soldier to see the reports on all of these mosque burnings and followers of Islam being beaten up in droves. Perhaps you could post a few relevant and recent news articles to help me out?
TryfAndy on 29 May 2013
Blue Straggler - on 29 May 2013
Oliiver, could you outline your political manifesto please? How would you run things?
You seem to have lots of concise criticisms which could fit into a fortune cookie or Christmas cracker. How about some positive suggestions for change?

Come on. You can do it. I'd love to see your ideas.

Oh, one of my parents is an Islamic immigrant. I thought it worth mentioning.
David Martin - on 29 May 2013
In reply to TryfAndy:

These attacks have of course been going on a while so perhaps there needs to be a much more visible increase in order to get people's attention. This for example occurred before the Woolwich attack. http://www.expressandstar.com/news/crime/2013/04/30/man-75-stabbed-to-death-in-street/
IainRUK - on 29 May 2013
In reply to David Martin: I also think the ones since have been given too much publicity and made more of an issue than they were.. the protest at a mosque the other day, where they EDL protestors were offered a cup of tea.. was attended by 6 people..
Blue Straggler - on 29 May 2013
In reply to IainRUK:
> the protest at a mosque the other day, where they EDL protestors were offered a cup of tea.. was attended by 6 people..

I noticed that, as it was mentioned in whatever link I looked at, and I also noticed that it seemed to pass without much comment. 6 people! Ha.

teflonpete - on 29 May 2013
In reply to Blue Straggler:
> Oliiver, could you outline your political manifesto please? How would you run things?
> You seem to have lots of concise criticisms which could fit into a fortune cookie or Christmas cracker. How about some positive suggestions for change?
>
> Come on. You can do it. I'd love to see your ideas.

Come on Blue, he's only 15, he hasn't got to the end of chapter 2 in the 'Sixth form common room debating for dummies' book yet. Isn't Oliiver the one who was telling us all about the wonders of Margaret Thatcher a little while ago? Strange he remembered that era so well considering he wasn't born for a quarter of a century after she'd left power.
dissonance - on 29 May 2013
In reply to teflonpete:

> Strange he remembered that era so well considering he wasn't born for a quarter of a century after she'd left power.

I am still umming and ahhing about them being a troll.
Problem is its one of those poe scenarios.
Blue Straggler - on 30 May 2013
In reply to dissonance:

We seem to have killed the thread!
Jim C - on 30 May 2013
In reply to IainRUK:
> (In reply to Oliiver) Everyone involved in academia knows tuition fees are needed... the Scots will soon change.. how they can afford no fees is very strange..

Quite simple Iain, there is a limited amount of money, you spend more say on subsidising education , or health and less is spent on say roads etc. etc.



aln - on 30 May 2013
In reply to dissonance:
> (In reply to teflonpete)
>
> [...]
>
> I am still umming and ahhing about them being a troll.
> Problem is its one of those poe scenarios.

Poe scenarios?
Duncan Bourne - on 30 May 2013
In reply to aln:
> (In reply to dissonance)
> [...]
>
> Poe scenarios?

Never More!
teflonpete - on 30 May 2013
In reply to aln:
> (In reply to dissonance)
> [...]
>
> Poe scenarios?

Power over Ethernet?
toad - on 30 May 2013
Ash_Johnson - on 30 May 2013
teflonpete - on 30 May 2013
In reply to toad:

Ah, cheers for clearing that up.
Richiehill - on 30 May 2013
In reply to Oliiver: This guy is hilarious. Keep it going fella, your posts are keeping me Entertained.

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