/ Munro completer, nearly.
I took an extra day off to recover not so much from the 30 mile day I put in two days ago, but the 500 mile drive home afterwards.(Im "Donald Ducked")
Its given me a chance to look thru' all my diaries from the last 10 years.I have worked out that so far I have ascended 155,000 metres, and travelled (Bike/walk or the odd run) 2711 kilometres.
Just thought i'd share that with you all.
PS . .am I anal ?
PPS . .on the summit of Sgurr Ban in Fisherfield, there are some prayer flags on the summit. Does anyone know the story behind them, or who put them there.
(There was also an awfully wierd shaped peice of rock too, next to the flags, shaped like a human foot/toes. I will post a picture later on my pic page)
Aye you're anal, but you seem happy enough and that's what it's all about.
Good on you mate. I compleated in 2009, and thought that'd be me with ticks....until someone asked me how many I'd done on my second round ;)
You saved them specially to litter the Scottish Highlands?
Did you also leave empty crisp packets and pop cans at the top?
Imagine what mess the mountains would be in if every Completer did this.
Presume your going to return soon and remove them !
What if we all left a cross on the summit.. its pretty normal in the alps, should we do that too?
Judging by your comments on the Snowdon signposts thread I assume your answer to that question would be Yes ;-)
I also think there is a difference between decisions made at an official level, by many, is different to a decision made by one. I'd think it wrong to me personally go and install path signs on Snowdon just because I think they'd be beneficial..
It's purely a matter of perspective whether your need to leave a legacy of your passing for others to find is litter or something more akin to graffiti.
Offensive? Not really.
Tiresome and rather depressing probably sums it up better for me. :(
That's a pathetic thing to do, quite honestly. You should be ashamed of yourself, but you're obviously not.
Sorry Heidi but you are in the wrong here. What people do in Andorra or Bulgaria is their own business. In Scotland leaving crisp packets, prayer flags, orange peel or whatever is littering and there is no excuse.
Have you noticed many other hills with prayer flags on top here? They may have significance in other countries as prayer flags, but here they are litter. Imagine if even only a tenth of the of the people who visited the summits of the hills followed your lead and left prayer flags. There would be a right mess. I'm not so sure you'd be so keen on it then, whatever the apparent personal significance of it to you.
I was out walking in the Lakes last summer, and there seemed to be England flags of all shapes and sizes stuffed into cairns on the tops during Euro 2012. It was such a shame that people felt the need to spoil the tops like that.
My problem is that other people would rather not arrive at the summit of a remote and beautiful hill and find it cluttered up with your litter.
Tell me, does the expression, "It's not all about you." mean anything to you?
> (There was also an awfully wierd shaped peice of rock too, next to the flags, shaped like a human foot/toes. I will post a picture later on my pic page)
I do hope this doesn't catch on. 1 persons prayer flags are a 1000 other persons' litter
> My problem is that other people would rather not arrive at the summit of a remote and beautiful hill and find it cluttered up with your litter.
> Tell me, does the expression, "It's not all about you." mean anything to you?
I think the point has been made, personally, I like places to be uncluttered, but it was disappointing on my last trip up North where we were picking up various items of litter and disposing of them.
I would probably have removed prayer flags along with bottles, crisp packets and banana skins. I do think she was wrong, but we can only hope that Heidi ( and others) will be a little more thoughtful in future, particularly on the more remote peaks, where, in my opinion, the 'damage' is more than say on the tourist honeypots like Ben Lomond or Nevis.
Aye that one is a miserable moaning B*****d at times but prayer flags?
Why not a feckin great big lion rampant.That would be more in keeping with the environment.
> we got them in Nepal and saved them specially
Jeezzz.... You do know 5000+ have completed their munros?
Imagine every summit was littered with tourist tat such as yours.
(WTF has a Nepalese prayer flag got to do with Scottish munros!)
Hopefully the next person up Sgurr Ban can recover the flags and make a point of sticking them where they belong.... - bucket or return to sender?
Hardly the worst sin in the world.
Just cart off some litter from your next few hills and your balance will be even.
The Scottish Mountain gods might even thank you for it. ;)
Now you know.
...erm Heidi did you not notice the ;-)
I'm pretty sure BE was joking.
I wouldn't remove them though, I'd be scared of upsetting the mountain Gods...I'll leave that to one of the above.
A friend of mine (in another country) suggests leaving a small stone on the summit of a special (to you) mountain, and taking one to leave elsewhere, to commemorate another occassion. Not every summit, just the ones that are special to you. So maybe in this case a small stone from Nepal to leave on your last Munro, instead of the flags. Or maybe a stone from the first Munro to leave on the last.
Just don't tell anyone ;)
PS - thanks for the chocolate :p
What or who is the mountain god of munros. Sir Hugh?
Cameron McNeish, surely...
On balance Heidi I don't think anyone was really having a go, or making you out to be a bad person, I just think that your attitude of "don't care" frustrated some including myself, they don't belong there and we don't subscribe to "mountain gods" in this country, it's litter, has no place and looks better and more rugged without it, on another note though well done on completion and next time celebrate with a beer but take the can/bottle home ;-).
Some of us do. Not everyone is CoE you know ;)
Heidi, true that, some farmers set a bad reputation for the rest of the hardworking countryside caring ones.
Sorry Heidi, but it's just not the case that "in any other country everyone would have felt the same". Prayer flags may have some significance in to some people in some parts of the world, but it's not universal.
I find difficult to understand that having walked up all the Munros, you chose to leave rubbish on the summit of your last one. Didn't the lack of similar rubbish along the way not give you some kind of clue as to what is acceptable or not?
In seriousness: I don't have any issues with it. Did they have any Nepali script on? Hope you enjoyed your days on the hill!
"Been Climbing For
1 to 3 years"
It's depressing how often the most foolishly opinionated posters have this on their profile.
Still, never mind. We'll all be dead soon.
Thanks for your post on flags n gods.
All been very informative.
Do Mountain Gods inhabit hills in Scotland?
What if Scottish Hill gods don't like Nepalese prayer flags?
You might have brought yourself a whole mountain of bad Scottish hill karma.
F--k the mountain gods.
Spare a thought for the mere mortals who have just climbed an unspoiled remote munro to discover your grubby and decaying tourist has been left on the summit?
> F--k the mountain gods.
> Spare a thought for the mere mortals who have just climbed an unspoiled remote munro to discover your grubby and decaying tourist has been left on the summit?
How do you feel about a concrete block painted white?
Leaving flags and other tacky tat is bad enough, but leaving a decaying tourist is seriously out of order!
There's already a similar tradition in parts of the UK, thankfully not on the hilltops.
If you must leave things for the fairies or whatever, why not pick somewhere that's already a bit of a mess - a Cloutie Tree, such as the one on Doon Hill by Aberfoyle:
You could even add some ribbons with your wishes written on them, a couple of plastic fairies, a garden gnome, some coins, or whatever other items you think the local spirits would just love to have...
Or this one:
Where's the local council when you need them? A one-day CCTV raid and a couple of hundred spot fines for littering would work wonders.
> Sorry Heidi, but it's just not the case that "in any other country everyone would have felt the same". Prayer flags may have some significance in to some people in some parts of the world, but it's not universal.
Heidi - you may or not be aware that a few years ago there was quite a debate about people leaving memorials on mountains and the consensus was that it shouldn't be done. However innocent you felt your actions were, the ethos in the British hills, as far as I'm aware, has always been "take only photographs, leave only footprints" (and if possible don't leave them).
The OS no longer place trig points for triangulation. Though at least they have / had a practical function that aids navigation and mapping (and are part of modern UK mountain tradition).
Anyone complaining about them should leave their map at home.
I didn't understand your comment really. Most foolishly opinionated? I can't say it was that, but you may have disliked what I said. Oh, and I don't update the profile so it's more like 4-16 years that I've been climbing, and 22 years that I've been walking and enjoying TGO.
If you would be the type of person to get so irate over discovering a prayer flag on top of a summit ANYWHERE in the world, then God help you (forgive the pun). Everybody has their own set of values and beliefs, some religious, some not. Prayer flags do virtually no damage to the environment, so really I don't get the opposition to this. As I said, I would be interested to discover flags. Just because I can't afford the flights to Kathmandu haha!
Ok so a block of concrete is nice if it had a use in the past(NO LONGER) but wee flags are blasphemy
^ The real irony given your "show tolerance" argument is that the action of placing a prayer flag on the summit of a munro is actually enforcing your mess / tourist tat upon on other people. What would happen if every munro completest wanted to leave a memento?
It is no better, or worse, than leaving a crisp packet.
Do you use OS maps yourself ?
Trig points are gradually being removed aren't they? Either that or the mountain gods are taking them home and putting them with all their piles of flags and other tat.
Can you read much Nepali?
"I went all the way to Nepal, and all I got was this lousy prayer flag."
Yeh. Did we not have maps before trigs maybe we didn't. Do other countries have thousands of blocks of concrete to make maps?
Poor argument all you need is a marked position like a metal survey nail in order to set your tripod over. ( in the past that is we don't even need that these days)
Maybe we should repair them for haggis traps mountain god shrine : )
Face facts, when it comes to leaving prayer flags on hills you're on a heidi to nothing.
Ah - presumably they'll know that whoever takes them away and uses them as fuel or something soft and strong at Shenevall is acting with a reverence for the sanctity of the Scottish Hills in their hearts then. :)
If you want a pseudo-religious slant - your actions are a bit like some 18th century missionary wandering in to native lands and plonking down a large cross, telling any protesting natives that it's all for the best. I thought that kind of cultural imperialism went out of fashion a century ago.
But in reality you've just littered a munro summit for your own glorification.
Best wishes on your journey towards maturity - it sounds as though it may be longer and harder than the mere munros. :)
Kinley2 is at present banned from Scotland's largest hillwalking site for using alias and trolling.
What is your point exactly? If you mean that there are Ordnance Survey trig points on our hills and therefore leaving other litter is OK, I don't think many other people would agree. If it's anything else, you're not articulating it very well.
If it's just whataboutery, of course, then carry on. You might want to mention the Irag war in a minute, maybe?
As for leaving something on the last munro, dogs and lampposts come to mind. Remember you are sharing the hills with other litter louts, most of whom do not wait for their last munro to start fouling.
> Kinley2 is at present banned from Scotland's largest hillwalking site for using alias and trolling.
> Walk highlands.
It seems that anyone who has a mind and who dares to challenge the views of the site owners and members gets banned from Walk Highlands!!
Excellent, yep I'm not fussed at all. To be honest, I have much more serious things to concern me, like whether my family and friends are OK. Your prayer flags mean something to you, but their effect upon me is negligible. Even when someone like yourself has gone out into the hills and enjoyed themselves the negative feedback on this site can be more baffling than even the hardest of crux moves. I know the issue lies with the prayer flags, but it's not like you left a field of oxygen bottles and broken tents. If I were you, I'd be chuffed, have a brew, and plan the next adventure.
Get more flags haha! Then post about it again.
I doubt it, given their non-existence.
No one has suggested you actually meant any harm.
For the hard of learning let make break it down to a retarded level.
Why get upset over a few flags but think its ok to leave concrete on top of a mountain.
Concrete is chemical used in the building industry.
You know what chemical means or do you want me to explain as well?
> You know what chemical means or do you want me to explain as well?
Yes please, can you explain it to me?
Just because something is a chemical doesn't automatically make it bad for the environment.
> Yes please, can you explain it to me?
> Just because something is a chemical doesn't automatically make it bad for the environment.
me too. this link may help:
I agree I have been an engineer responsible for 400m3 wind farm bases. My point is its laughable to go on about a few wee flags.
I will keep that link for the next windfarm debate.
It was without doubt related.As someone already said having to disagree can get you banned. In that word should this not be your home. Oh yes it is isn't it.
Thanks. That's a great demonstration of why it's not just about one silly wee piece of tourist tat left by one thoughtless Munro completer.
You guys should go visit a Cloutie tree/well first, too, if you're really that keen on leaving rubbish lying around.
Cloutie tree well? is this something similar to cloutie dumpling.
May be we should decorate the summits like those concrete pillars with something like tinsel it has to be an improvement.
> Leaving flags and other tacky tat is bad enough, but leaving a decaying tourist is seriously out of order!
Ah, but surely a decaying tourist (an ex-Presbyterian, say) would be a more appropriate offering to the (pagan) Scottish mountain gods than Buddhist prayer flags...?
Kind of. If you squint a bit, and ignore the decaying rubbish and the tragic lack of sultanas.
You really have it in for the trig points, eh?
The hilltops probably would be marginally better without them. Feel free to carry them off with you; I'll give you a hand when I'm finished with the souvenirs and crisp packets.
You could be on to something there, and at least it's biodegradable...
> I agree I have been an engineer responsible for 400m3 wind farm bases. My point is its laughable to go on about a few wee flags.
So you're one those tossers that totally trash the countryside with wind turbines and you complain about trig points!
If it was up to me there would be no cairns and no trig points, but the trig points are historical now so that's that. If a cairn is not there as an actual useful purpose (such as some of the small, indistinct nav cairns in the cuilin) I will remove a stone each time I am at the summit, or in the mood kick one down.
> "Been Climbing For
> 1 to 3 years"
> It's depressing how often the most foolishly opinionated posters have this on their profile.
> Still, never mind. We'll all be dead soon.
What does the time you have been climbing relate to the time you have spent in the hills and hillwalking? Climbing is a moderately new thing to me, but I have been up in the hills since primary school.
You'll be glad to know they're much more thorough with the head-counts these days. :-)
So, will you be leaving a memento on your last Munro?
> So you're one those tossers that totally trash the countryside with wind turbines and you complain about trig points!
So someone is a tosser automatically if they do a job where you don't like the end product? Hello kettle, I'm pot - gosh, you are mighty black!
Is it just me, or are people on UKC more interested in bashing each other than actually climbing nowadays? What happened to make you all so bitter? I always thought climbers were part of a 'community', but you all seem hell bent on tearing chunks out of each other. One giant troll-fest, to use the term you all love so much.
It's just these sorts of selfish, juvenile attitudes that end up destroying the countryside for everyone (insert any damaging behaviour you feel like before 'no one should tell me what to do').
There's a limited amount of countryside and we all need to respect others and leave it in a state that others can enjoy. I think just the (nearly) universal condemnation should make you mindful that you have done something that will affect others in a negative way.
And that is the nub of the problem, particularly if something is very personal to you. From my experience, I've also had difficult conversation with people allowing their children to pick wildflowers "'cos it's for granny and she's ill". An individual selfish act, done with the best of intentions, is still a selfish act. Typically it causes few problems, but the question you have to ask is "what if everyone did this?".
I have read through the thread, several times as it happens - and I've wondered about the wisdom of posting, but I think that this issue is an important one - we have an overcrowded island, and far more people are taking to the hills than ever before, and the cumulative impact is that much greater.
PS.FWIW, I've had far worse arguments on here in the past - my advise would be not to take things to heart.
I would be surprised if anyone thinks you deliberately set out to upset anyone, as I am sure that is not the case at all, and you are taking it the wrong way if you think that people are now trying to deliberately upset you. I don't subscribe to your belief of mountain gods in any way shape or form, but that's your personal outlook, and that's fine.
It's your (and others) apparent refusal to accept that the majority of hillgoers are not keen on finding stuff left lying about on top of a hill by other people, whether perceived to be well intentioned or not, that's a struggle to understand.
Disagreement is very different from hate.
UKC is one of the least vitriolic forums I've seen. Probably largely due to being moderated. But also maybe because I filter out the pub/off belay sections ;-)
Not sure why you are singling out farmers, but yes, I agree, it can look worse, but that's missing the point. Even though you perceive your prayer flags to look more attractive than what you perceive as rubbish, once left lying about, it becomes rubbish.
If i left a big steaming turd just before you arrived on your last summit would it have been just as special a moment? If not, then you leaving your prayer flags could cause similar insult to the next person(s) to arrive, until somebody bothers to tidy your mess up after you....
Take it with a pinch of salt we all get slated on here at sometime, try not to admit to stupid things online and you probaly won't get as much shit.
typical girly thing to say
Leaving them was hardly the crime of the century, I think it's the way you seem to still be defending it that grates with most.
I can't see much name calling or hate in the responses to you, to be honest. Why get defensive, when you could just laugh at your misunderstanding of what's OK, say you won't leave any more, and move on? Who hasn't done something daft sometime?
I cannot stand litter louts.
In fact, by shear coincidence, I have just been out for a jog and took someones car registation number, because they were dumping litter. I have reported them.
The irony of all the above is that when I came across the flags on Sgurr Ban, I thought it was really quite a nice touch, and never once looked at them as "Litter". I summited, by coincidence, with several other people none of whom commented on the flags being litter.
Maybe its about time to put this subject to rest. That will give time to people who are that up in arms about this "crime", they can ascend the "hill" over the weekend and take down the "offending" article
Aw I'm sorry Lusk. Do you want to go back and pick them up. Lesson learned : don't leave your wind turbines behind when you walk off the hill. I promise to remember next time.
Jesus Christ, woman, will you stop with the whining already?? You've behaved badly; a large number of people have pointed that out and instead of showing any sign of regret you wallow in victimhood. This must be what it's like talking to Luis Suarez.
I think new builds original post was pretty week until Heidi came along and shot it over a ton in no time. : )
You're right of course but we can't do anything about them. All we can do is manage litter and erosion where we can on a smaller scale.
None of that shit on Ben Nevis, there are a load of guidance cairns , and there was some memorial stuff, but that has all been removed in a clean up, and moved lower down.
Not saying you don't have a point on the others though.
> Disagreement is very different from hate.
> UKC is one of the least vitriolic forums I've seen. Probably largely due to being moderated. But also maybe because I filter out the pub/off belay sections ;-)
Really? It is one of the most vitriolic I have seen....!
Can we now finally draw this to a close? Heidi has apologised for doing something she thought was unacceptable ('sorry for offending any of you'. You have all given you two-penneth worth, scalded her actions, and generally drummed it into her and everyone else reading this post that you don't like litter (or wind turbines) on 'your hills'. Ok, we get it, and I think she does as well. Now can we go back to enjoying the hills, and each others company without the perpetual ill feeling? Enough is enough - I am 99.9% sure that Heidi will not be leaving any prayer flags (or similar) anywhere again, for fear of the UKC hill police coming to get her. Time to move on.
The amount of shit and strife that religion causes in the world, the hills etc are one place I can go and get away from all that bullshit.
So the the last thing I want to see out there is some of your schoolchild religious crap.
A mountain is just a lump of rock, the only cosmic experience I might have had will be from the miniscule change in gravity! :-)
>Heidi has apologised for doing something she thought was unacceptable
Well, not really. Her actual words were
"when I replied that I had left the flags I just knew that someone would jump on me for it. no I didn't leave litter- grow up."
and subsequently, a hundred posts later
"all you self-righteous people..."
It's clear that actually she thinks that litter is OK as long as it's her beautiful meaningful litter and that it's all terribly unfair that nasty men are being horrid to her. If she had shown the slightest regret or understanding this thread would have been a lot shorter.
jcm - how convenient you chose to cut off your quote at the point where heidi apologised!
Put yourself in her shoes - you did something that others disagreed with, and got slated for it - repeatedly. Of course you might be on the defensive a little bit, it is human nature.
I think she has shown regret and understanding, but doesn't feel the repeated attacking of her is justified for what was an innocent mistake. To be honest, I think a number of you are being self-righteous. We have all made mistakes, and I my opinion, it took bravery to say it was her - she could have kept quiet, and then you would have had no one to chastise.
Let it drop - I really don't think it is helping anyone, and just makes you look like a dick - all in my honest opinion of course.
For the record, I don't agree with leaving prayer flags on top of a mountain, as I agree it adds nothing, and takes a way a lot. But I also believe that the point has been made, and you need to remove the chip from your shoulder and get back out and enjoy the hills once more.
> You're right of course but we can't do anything about them. All we can do is manage litter and erosion where we can on a smaller scale.
Which gets to the nub of the issue.
Justifying littering by pointing to large scale fixed eyesores like windfarms, trig-points, mountain cafes or the littering of others is a common line (and not restricted to hillwalkers).
Hopefully it'll be a while before someone decides to decorate remote Corbetts and Grahams.
Jeez, I've not seen such a vitrolic attack on one individual since the bad old days on here. Not a great moment for UKC.
Personally, if I ended up on top of a summit and saw a load of prayer flags I'd think "this summit must have really meant something to the person who left them", and then I'd have had a cuppa, possibly taken a few photographs, walked down the other side, and forgotten about it.
I couldn't agree more John. To get depressed or even angry over a few flags is laughable. What a bunch of sad anoraks.
I actually miss the piss take and slaggings that used to come part n parcel with climbing. Blame it on the 80s with those tights n stuff. Turned climbers very sensitive : )
But there was a heck of a gathering of Cagooles jostling to join in a mass attack on one person. Poor show.
I think there's something wrong with my PC, because I can't find any such thing. Apart from jcm's contributions of course, but that's par for the course. In fact the most abusive posts seem to be from Ms 123 ;-)
and I'd think "obviously whoever left these has no understanding of the hills, probably a 3-peaker who's got lost", and take them down along with the assorted crisp packets and banana skins that usually accompany such things :)
> Jeez, I've not seen such a vitrolic attack on one individual since the bad old days on here. Not a great moment for UKC.
> Personally, if I ended up on top of a summit and saw a load of prayer flags I'd think "this summit must have really meant something to the person who left them", and then I'd have had a cuppa, possibly taken a few photographs, walked down the other side, and forgotten about it.
I agree with Toreador.. I don't think its been that bad.. but I think toad speaks a lot of sense. In the UK we don't like to leave things. I know me wanting signs on snowdon seems hypocritical but I think a few well placed signs to control erosion aid safety are different to individuals leaving paraphernalia.
If I was walking up Snowdon putting signs whereever I think they should go then yes, it would be hypocritical, but all I'm doing is supporting the well thought out decision made by a large number of people.
If anything, by wanting more lower options, like the idwal ciruit, we save the upper mountains from some more erosion. There's a lovely loop in llanberis, takes a few hours to walk around the lake, cafe to cafe.. yet its not really well advertised.. board with maps at every parking spot on the route would really help.. the paths, loops are often there, just need more advertising.
I think at the moment people go up snowdon as its the obvious walk to do.
> I think there's something wrong with my PC, because I can't find any such thing.
Don't know about you but personally i find getting called a "tosser" a tad abusive.
You're obviously more sensitive than me ;-)
I'd put it in the same bracket as "pathetic" and "self righteous", and somewhere slightly below "boring".
Wind farms go through months of planning and justifications, CBA.. they aren't just put up on an individual level. Going with your arguments we can not object to anything in Snowdonia as the slate quarries are already there..
I'm increasingly intolerant of litter.. especially cigarettes.. all smokers say they don't drop tab ends.. but someone does..
How about we start a new thread about litter in the hills and mountains of the UK? Then you can all rant to you hearts content on the subject....?
Moderators - how about you close this thread? Any continued posts are like flogging a now stiff horse...
Don't read it then.
Yes good idea, close this thread and start another identical one. er...
Newbuild 100, thank you for sharing this post with us. I appreciated the stats you've added-up from the last ten years. I hope the last three hills go well, and have a good celebration on the last one.
Heidi123, congratulations on completing all the Munros (I read your enquiry post earlier about route advice, and was pleased to know you'd done it).
I looked at the pic of the flags, and found them inoffensive :
I would be happy to arrive here and see this colourful sight, with NO other rubbish.
I hate rubbish, and regularly collect a carrier bag-full on descending the mountain. Rubbish is ugly unsightly and left by thoughtless people. Plastic, rusty tin, aluminium, nylon etc lasts for years as a reminder of that thoughtlessness. However, light cotton / silk flags will flutter to pieces and are biodegrade. And leaving them at least was done with solemnity &/or celebration.
Now I wouldn't want every summit bedecked with Buddist prayer flags, or crosses/crucifixes, Virgin Marys, Islamic crescents, Shivas, or Stars of David, BUT , to find the very occasional summit with some coloured Tibetan/Nepali flags is not unwelcome. It is all about moderation (stressing very occasional).
After several months, when the flags are tatty/faded I'd happily remove the remaining string without rancour.
When I was walking in Sardinia and I went to explore a cave off the beaten path, quite a few people had taken a dump in it.
When I was walking in Spain and I went to explore a cave off the beaten path, someone had taken a dump and a big steaming piss in it.
We'll not talk about France.
Because people in other countries consider it normal to take a dump anywhere marginally out of sight, can I do the same somewhere you are planning to walk to in the UK, and tell you "for goodness sake, whats your problem?"
But then my views can be discarded as I am male, I am probably just trying to oppress you or summit.
So it's OK for 'one person' to deck a summit with prayer flags and you're happy - ok, you're entitled to your opinion. But when several hundred 'one persons' want to leave their individual summit with said flags or that several 'one persons' arrive at the same summit and then you have Heidi123 with her flags 'times lots' which then leaves a summit just pig ugly.
In the UK its just plain wrong and should be discouraged from the outset.....
Thank you Bluebealach. Maybe I am underestimating the number of 'one-persons'. I have visited hundreds of summits all over Great Britain over the years, and have only seen flag tat and ceremonial stuff on a few tops, and those being the Honey-pot ones ( Scafell, The Ben, Snowdon etc.). If this is now becoming an increasing problem,and spreading regularly to isolated/remote tops, then I'm happy to be corrected. And don't get me wrong, I am happiest to arrive at a remote summit to find it pristine. Maybe there are just too many people now to allow individual acts of colourful expression?
Also, I saw 3 or 4 piles of cremation ashes on top of Bow Fell, L.D., and on chatting with a Ranger found out that this IS an increasing problem, as it does have an impact on a marginal ecological niche.
Agreed, it's quite disturbing to be eating your sarnies on Bowfell with the evenings setting sun and looking longingly across at the Scafells, only to find someones 'ashes' often dumped unceremoniously on the ground only a few feet from your own little piece of heaven!!
I was in the Galloway hills having something to eat next to a cairn when I spotted what I thought was a burgundy coloured plastic container. I pulled it out thinking it was like some kind of summit book. Nope it was empty and when I read some writing on it dropped it. They had stuck the emptied funeral container in the cairn!
All this is arguing the same point, isn't it? And, in any case, all this has, I think, already been discussed and agreed to by the various authorities (such as we have them ...) in relation to the British hills. For example - as has already been mentioned in this thread - there was a clean up of memorials which had been left on the Ben.
The end point is pretty clear: please just don't leave stuff (of any kind) on our hills. Enjoy them; get out in them; but just leave them as they are.
> It's clear that actually she thinks that litter is OK as long as it's her beautiful meaningful litter and that it's all terribly unfair that nasty men are being horrid to her. If she had shown the slightest regret or understanding this thread would have been a lot shorter.
About sums it up for me.
I think its turned into a pretty good thread albeit drifting off the topic substantially
The usual saddo anoraks gathering to lay into one person is as much as I have come to expect and I noticed one in particular who seems to seek out such events. All very entertaining.
I'm a happy anorak, so I'm not sure you care what I think, but I saw lots of completely separate people, who happen to feel much the same way, replying to something that they felt strongly about, posted by one person.
I can see how that might look like bullying or picking on someone - but we're on the internet, where people can't talk over you and the original statement doesn't vanish as soon as it's 'said', but sits there being 'said' again to each separate person as they read it for the first time.
There remains a non-zero chance that this whole thing is a troll, and if so it's a bit of a classic (I especially like the vaguely-defined quasi-religious stuff), but as I've been meaning to get back to these hills for a while, I'll try to do so sometime in the next few weeks and have a bit of a tidy while I'm at it.
Anyway, I'm off for a tussock-toddle while the weather holds; my anorak's already packed. Enjoy the hills, folks!
That would be worth it. : )
Its just folks perceiving things differently. I said before how can you get upset over wee flags but find a block of concrete (trigs) acceptable. At that point they all turn on the defence of concrete on the hill. I then say I agree because I helped build 400m3 blocks for wind farms. I then got called a tosser. Yeh canny win! : )
I personally don`t have a problem with the flags ,as shown in the photo.
Worse things left and more damage done to summits than a few ,colourful flags.
Noticed this morning at the summit of Ben More (Mull) ,that a memorial plaque to a local lady appears to have been flung over the cliff.
And on a regular basis some knobhead sees fit to kick the cairn of stones over.
Regarding the plaque;
Chap up from Edinburgh, who was at the summit ,had the theory that the Munro chiefs are having a big clamp down on any memorials etc left on hills.
In reply to Hans:
"Been Climbing For
1 to 3 years"
It's depressing how often the most foolishly opinionated posters have this on their profile.
Still, never mind. We'll all be dead soon.
You just love how wise you think you are don't you!
Basically what you are saying is that if any mountain has an existing piece of man made infrastructure with a practical purpose (cable car, signpost, path, trig point) then it is ok to drop litter (crisp packet, prayer flag, fag end) ?
Clearly that is nonsense.
Remind me never to visit walkhighlands ;-)
People are entitled to their own valid opinion ?
Especially when other people actions potentially damage their enjoyment of the hills.
For sure one prayer flag on its own is harmless. Though what would happen if every munro completest decides to leave their mark? It is the matter of principal that is being debated here - not one specific piece of isolated Nepalese tourist tat left in the fisherfield's.
If Ms 123 had left a block of concrete instead of some flags do you think there would have been (a) fewer complaints, (b) more complaints, (c) the same?
And you already had replies. Trig points are already there and have been there quite a while. They served a legitimate purpose at one point and part of the history of the hills now. I would not complain if "they" decided to take them away, but it is unlikely.
Not by walkers. We don't exactly have control over what is done by landowners and people like the national trust.
How do you deduct this theory? Did you see it get chucked "over a cliff". Did you see it at the bottom of the cliff? Or did you make a random assumption because it was gone?
Who are the "Munro Chiefs"
> If Ms 123 had left a block of concrete instead of some flags do you think there would have been (a) fewer complaints, (b) more complaints, (c) the same?
Ha! Not sure its a tricky one. Possibly (a) as long as she put it on a point of prominence for everyone to see. Burying it would be (b)and she would be called "a Tosser"
I noticed a picture of Goat Fell summit trig, Arran on another forum. It was taken last week and the trig had a new coat of paint. Who paints them still?
One off is not so bad but if it happened all the time I don't think I would be so happy. The picture of them isn't that bad really??
Is it litter........well I suppose it is technically!! I think we could all justify the act rightly or wrongly!
Goatfell is owned (or managed to use a more appropriate term) by NTS so I would assume that they do it. Many trig points sit on hills which are owned by estates and other landowners so have fell into disrepair. Walkers don't exactly have the authority or ability to anything about these. Litter and erosion is at least something which can be managed within the community. I am amazed that caring about our countyside and hills makes you an "anorak"
Scottish Outdoor Access code is quite clear on rubbish and leaving nothing on the hills. We have amazing access rights up here that were fought hard for.
Thats the be all and end of it for me. OK some groups may opt for changes, but after consultation. So plaques, memorials, flags, additional cairns are all frowned upon.
Its now common on the Bob Graham, small cairns marking the route.. luminous tape marks the paddy buckley in places.. and all those people will frown at littering.. or additinal changes yet want to make their own additions.. strange.
At least three of my ten favourite activities involve anoraks and/or tossing. I'm thinking of trying anorak tossing sometime.
Aren't spellcheckers wonderful?
When the OS originally started disposing of trig points, it was possibly for anyone to apply to "adopt" one. Duties of the adopter included making sure they were painted regularly!
> One off is not so bad but if it happened all the time I don't think I would be so happy. The picture of them isn't that bad really??
I feel much the same. If the flags are cotton on a hemp rope or some other biodegradeable material then again that's less of an issue for me than if they were made of something that's going be around for decades, either on a cairn or more likely lying in a bog somewhere.
Yes there are worse bits of rubbish left on hills but that's no excuse for leaving more.
I think someone said earlier that title really belongs to walkhighlands types.
> Aren't spellcheckers wonderful?
Obviously yours doesn't work either... I have never heard of the Irag war - is this your one man crusade against litter louts!? :P
You're not very bright, are you?
And what are walkhighlands types? Most of the climbers I know are also walkers (including walkhighlands types) and all still have the same views on litter.
> You're not very bright, are you?
It must be something to do with your name I think - but what's a in name Mr Cocks (sorry - my spellchecker is broken again)? Oh please, great master of the hills, enlighten a poor dim person such as myself with your worldly knowledge. Then perhaps I too can grow up to be an arrogant tit who gets off on belittling others. Pray tell, just what is the Irag war, or is your humour and wit just on a whole different level to mere mortals such as myself?
Not sure what you mean its like your are asking a question then telling me the answer.
Do you want a reply or you happy enough to continue with yourself?
> Not by walkers. We don't exactly have control over what is done by landowners and people like the national trust.
> How do you deduct this theory? Did you see it get chucked "over a cliff". Did you see it at the bottom of the cliff? Or did you make a random assumption because it was gone?
> Who are the "Munro Chiefs"
From the sound of things ,you are the Munro Chief.
I think you may be in need of some fresh air.
Except people from North Lanarkshire don't consider themself weedgies?
> Except people from North Lanarkshire don't consider themself weedgies?
Indeed, the correct term here is ned.
Do you carry your crap n pish in your rucksack?
Do you crap n pish on hill tops?
> Do you crap n pish on hill tops?
yeah.. crap will degrade..
Well try going away from the top, it's nicer for other people. And whining on the internet about people on the internet not getting out? Motes and beams, dear boy.
> yeah.. crap will degrade..
But pretty unpleasant and it can also contaminant water with various nasties. Go before you go and all that...
Not always possible to go before you go.
sometimes ,on a long day, there is nothing that can be done.
If I have to go ,I will give my fecal matter a decent Christian burial.
don't see what harm my turds will be doing to the environment.
Yeh. Does Martin pick up all the animal dung he finds like the folks on here go on about litter. Must be a big sack on his back.
Feck sake imagine carrying yer shit in your rucksack! Its like a guy I used to go climbing with who admitted to pissing in his pot at night. Horrified that he had made me brews in the past. This one could be offering you anything at lunch time.
Animal waste is different to human waste, we are much more likely to catch various illnesses and diseases from human waste (and dogs) than we are sheep and cows.
I wondered how much further into the ridiculous this thread would go...it turned to sh*t after the fith post but now it really has gone down the pan!
Running aids peristaltic motion.. its why when you don't run you get constipated as your body becomes accustomed to the motion of running.
Nah.. I stopped for a shit twice running off snowdon one day.. took me 26 mins summit to llanberis with stops.. I was reported to Welsh Athletics as I basically just dropped the shorts and shitted.. but any runner has been caught.. from Paula to Steve Jones.. so they all just laughed..
and apart from that ,having an alfresco dump is a very liberating experience.
Almost a Hamlet moment.
An awful lot of people hiking in the national parks of the USA manage it every day. Plenty of ecosystems would be quite upset by human turds, and it takes a lot of effort to avoid contaminating water supplies etc.
Euughhh! Yah bunch of mingers. That's serious anorak.
Solves one problem, creates another. While plodding up Mt Whitney last October, we realised that some people hadn't quite grasped the concept. They had used the bags, and sealed them up. They then left them by the side of the path...
R they biodegradable therefore hiding them from the the eyes of city folks not used to turds in the wilds?
> and apart from that ,having an alfresco dump is a very liberating experience.
> Almost a Hamlet moment.
More of a Monte Cristo moment.
> Euughhh! Yah bunch of mingers. That's serious anorak.
If by "serious anorak" you mean "well thought out solution that allows many people to experience a turd free wilderness" that you're spot on.
> Solves one problem, creates another. While plodding up Mt Whitney last October, we realised that some people hadn't quite grasped the concept. They had used the bags, and sealed them up. They then left them by the side of the path...
Presumably the same form of mental retardation suffered by many dog walkers in Britain.
Although to be fair I'd rather see a sealed up poo bag that the rangers can cart out than a steaming turd, as is apparently common on various parts of the continent.
> If by "serious anorak" you mean "well thought out solution that allows many people to experience a turd free wilderness" that you're spot on.
Hitler would be proud of your clinical clean wilderness.How do you expect to police the wild life or we talking mass extermination?
It only bothers me when the dog finds a human one and eats it! Its murder in the car with him panting away.
> Not always possible to go before you go.
> sometimes ,on a long day, there is nothing that can be done.
No but it's a good aim. Some of the posts here seem to taking delight in the amount of shit they deposit around the place.
Thread over, you lose
How is that delight.. of course I'd rather shit in a toilet.. but I've no issues with having one in the hills..
You really are one of lifes idiots..
> How is that delight..
I quote "... I stopped for a shit twice running off snowdon one day.. took me 26 mins summit to llanberis with stops... as I basically just dropped the shorts and shitted"
Rather odd statement. What do you mean? "Thread ends" you lose : /
This isn't my thread or some form of race (I think!)
There maybe could be a bit of market research for manufacturers to create a rucksack with a toilet seat and frame. : )
Its staggering that folks devote so much of their time into studying the Internet. He maybe should avoid social network sites for a while.
Hitler card played. You need to poo in a bag now folks. : )
> Its staggering that folks devote so much of their time into studying the Internet. He maybe should avoid social network sites for a while.
...says the guy who keeps bringing this thread back to life! If the anorak fits...
Hmmm , shame on you in failing to obey forum protocol and stop when the Hitler card was played. Read on the big Cagooles link.
Billy Connely tour of Australia states in Canberra " the perfect lines, etc hitler would be proud of. Its on his television show. Did he see something different when he made that statement.
> Billy Connely tour of Australia states in Canberra " the perfect lines, etc hitler would be proud of. Its on his television show. Did he see something different when he made that statement.
> : )
I'm not surprised that Mr Connelly quoted Hitler on his show. His fellow countrymen have voted into power an extremist goverment who are not very far off being nazis. Just watch them if they get indepence from us. They will show there true colours then.
talking about turds always creates a bit of interest on forums.
turds put bums on seats
Guess not then. Will we try Mussolini?
Don't think I have ever trod on a human one so as long as out of sight don't care. On the other hand those that stick a turd back in their rucksack must always have folk round them going " you smell shit I'm sure I can smell shit" and checking there boots. You can just imagine everyone's faces if you piped up " no its me I did a shit earlier and I have here in my bag"
Maybe it will catch on.
Ding Ding Ding.
I thought round 2 was trigs after those god flags.
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