UKC

Went to Harpur Hill on Satuday with my girlfriend and on arrival at the Industrial Site at about midday and as I knew there had been parking issues in the past and there were lots of no parking signs we mentioned to an older chap that we were there to climb and were looking for somewhere we could park for the day. He wasn't at all helpful and basically just said no.
We then popped in to 'Annie's Café' to get a couple of coffees and ask the owner if she knew where was ok to park. After quite a long discussion during which I said that I was happy to take the car back down the road to Harpur Hill she basically talked me out of it and said that as we seemed nice folk and obviously not there to cause trouble and mess the place up (unlike many others) we could park opposite her café, and in the unlikely event of being issued a parking ticket she was happy to deal with it as she had an agreement with the owner about customers parking there.

I'm sure you can see where this is going!

Returned to the car about 5:30pm to find a parking ticket for £100 (£60 if paid in 14 days) on my car and another climber's car. Called the café owner and was informed that she had asked the site owner earlier in the day not to ticket my car as we were nice folk who had used her café and gone for a walk. Site owner turned out to be the same old chap we had spoken to on arrival and said he knew we weren't walkers but actually climbers (not quite sure what difference it makes or why he had to make the distinction) and that after she closed for the day (about 3pm) the car parking spaces were no longer her property. She argued the point and felt that he would resist from ticketing my car and was surprised to hear that he had.
I asked her for the site owners phone number so I can try and discuss the issue but she said she can't give it out without his consent. I managed to get a number for what I believe to be the site head office but it's just ringing out.
Really annoyed that it turns out it was the site owner who I spoke to on arrival, looks like he made no effort to inform me of where I could park so he could ticket me later.
Looks like I'll have to just bite the bullet and cough up - makes for a pricey day out
Still, lesson learned and hopefully this can prevent others making the same mistake.

See this map and instructions for where to park safely (wish I'd seen it a few days ago):-
http://www.rockfax.com/news/2012/05/29/harpur-hill-parking/

In reply to sebbo: Which company has issued the ticket? Sounds like it might be difficult to enforce if you don't pay.

In reply to Papillon:
The company is TESGB Ltd (part of The Parking Ticket Company Ltd) and are a member of the British Parking Association - sadly seems legit.

In reply to sebbo:

Even if it is "legit" such civil-law tickets are very hard to enforce. For starters, what does the signing say where you parked?

In reply to sebbo:
Unless issued by a traffic warden or police under road traffic act do not pay it.
Basically it is a speculative invoice. It is possible who ever issued it can get your address via DVLA and send you further demanding letters non of which you should respond to.
They would have to take you to the small court and who ever is trying to twist your arm is unlikely to win.
Cheers

In reply to FlyingSaucerAttack:

Agreed they almost never pursue these in small claims and nevr would do so in these circumstances. They do send out several letters and rely on mugs paying up.

In reply to sebbo:

Sorry to hear that you have such troubles.
Although, even in my 2-3 old guidebook of peak district sport climbing it is mentioned that the industrial site should not be used for parking.

I parked on the street in town before with no problems. There is a small footpath leading up to Harpur hill. It not more than a 5-10 min walk so really doable even for sport climbers

In reply to sebbo:

my advise is whatever you do make a complaint to the BPA (i work in the industry)

as far as I am led to believe, unless you get a ticket by a traffic warden, what he has issued you is simply an invoice. i.e a speculative "please pay up" statement.

see the following link

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?309210-Private-Pa...

In reply to Removed UserTheShipsMast:

traffic warden/ civil enforcement officers issue Penalty Charge Notices (fine)

private enforcers issue Parking Charge Notices (charge rather than fine)

In reply to sebbo: These are not enforcable.

They will send a few further letters, some threatening all sorts of things e.g. "we may consider legal action" but they will not.

Go to the Consumer Action Group pages and look, you will get the same advice there.

Do not even contact the company, and do not acknowledge letters or communications from them or any so-called solicitors who contact you on their behalf.

They are all crooks.

Lastly: DO NOT PAY.

In reply to sebbo:

Have a look here...

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=46975

There may be some similar situations to yours here...

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=60

In reply to sebbo:

As an aside - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-22843481

In reply to sebbo:

Think this has been pretty well covered but do not pay! I think the loop hole is based around the fact that they have to prove it was you driving the car, and because this is impossible unless you admit it was actually you and not someone else driving, the cases can't be won.

In reply to ciaran1999: I think it's more to do with implied contracts, and the fact that the parking is free therefore there cannot be a loss/penalty. Something like that but the message is the same: don't apy.

In reply to sebbo: Were there signs saying that parking without permission will mean a ticket being issued? If not, don't worry about it and bin it. If there was, was it legible from a decent distance i.e. in your car? if not, don't worry about it and bin it. Was it a penalty charge notice from either the police or traffic warden? if not, see above.

In reply to ciaran1999:

Such proof is no longer necessary, as in its absence the registered keeper can be sued. This was a concession when clamping was banned.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:


Sued for what? As I understand it were it to go to small claims court the parking co could only ever expect to recover lost parking revenue ie the cost of a parking ticket. In cases where tickets are not issued anyway there is no lost revenue to claim and no mechanism to issue any legitimate "penalty".

In reply to ciaran1999:
Gah!
I appealed yesterday morning using the PayMyPCN.net website which has just been rejected. Wish I'd seen these posts first.
As I have now admitted that I was driving and given my details in the appeal process I am well and truly stuffed!
Looks like I'll have to cough up

In reply to sebbo: No! you don't have to cough up. The advice remains the same, the facts remain the same. Of course your appeal was rejected, every appeal is rejected.

My advice is that you log onto the Consumer Action Group, post this in the motoring section and calm down, dear. Stop rushing. Don't panic.

In reply to sebbo:


Not really. Whether or not you are driving is no longer that important, after a recent rule change. The basic point is that no private company has any right to fine you or penalise you. Thus any claim is simply an invoice under contract law, and the terms of the contract have to be fair and reasonable, and any invoice has to be a reasonable claim for parking services they provide, or loss to them owing to you parking there.

Tell us more about your situation, almost certainly their claim is unreasonable.

In reply to Frank the Husky:
I've not got much time for these private enforcement nobs, but does the same line of argument also apply in principle to mean that you can't do much about someone parking on your drive?

Don't pay it! I've had a ticket from a private company for daring to rest longer than the permitted 2 hours at a motorway services. They wrote to me 4 times demanding ever increasing amounts of money but after that I never heard from them again. It's standard practise.

If a ticket is issued by the council/police then you need to pay or appeal it. If it's by a private company do not pay.

In reply to sebbo: DO NOT PAY UP AT ALL! DESPITE YOUR APPEAL THING!

I had this same sort of thing from the car park at the tesco on abbeydale road sheffield where I popped in to return a dvd, then five hours later popped to the tesco and they said I was there for the whole time.

They sent letters etc with photos of my car going in and out, I appealed and got a standard decline.. then got four or five letters all 'looking' pretty official, which I ignored on the advice of various consumer groups, and hey presto they didn't contact me any more.

YOU WILL NOT HAVE TO PAY THIS DON'T BE GULLIBLE OR THREATENED BY THEM.

Basically, if I put a post on here saying, if you read this post I can charge you 100 quid, and you read it, would I be able to claim it. No, same principle.

In reply to smithaldo:

That "no return within" thing on car parks hacks me off, as it prevents you shopping round at out of town places.

That said, stuff them. The effect of it is to cause me to shop online instead. They lose, just like town centres did for the same reason.

Neil

In reply to sebbo:

PayMyPCN is basically a scam. They use the abbreviation "PCN" to try to fool you in to thinking that you are dealing with a Penalty Charge Notice ie a legally enforceable fine issued by a local authority parking warden. You're not. Look at the web site, specifically the "about us" page http://www.paymypcn.net/about/index.php and it's obvious that they are a mechanism for collecting on "parking charge notices" which are not legally enforceable.

Of course your "appeal" failed: it's just another part of the scam designed to make you think that they deal with official, enforceable PCNs (which do have an appeals process). There is no appeals process for "parking charge notices", it's just a way to keep you on the hook.


As everyone else has advised: don't pay it. Just ignore all further communications from them. They will eventually give up and leave you alone, because unless you hand over money voluntarily there is no cost-effective way for them to get anything out of you against your will ie through the courts.

In reply to Ramblin dave: That would be a civil offence of trespass so you'd struggle. There is no monetary loss to you when someone parks on your drive so there is no penalty that can be applied. It's broadly the same argument.