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Hi, I am new to this forum and very new to the idea and sport of hill climbing/walking. Perhaps its a mid-life crisis (just turned 54)but I want to set myself a goal of climbing/ walking to the top of every 3000ft peak in the uk.
What are my chances with careful planning and training? Do the peaks have pathways or tracks I would be able to use or would it be a case of climbing up sheer cliff faces. most of you will be laughing at the thought of my ridiculous idea but I can take all the advice you can give and the reason I ask is because I don't know.
Thank you
Dave
What are my chances with careful planning and training? Do the peaks have pathways or tracks I would be able to use or would it be a case of climbing up sheer cliff faces. most of you will be laughing at the thought of my ridiculous idea but I can take all the advice you can give and the reason I ask is because I don't know.
Thank you
Dave
In reply to davidcooke:
STEP 01: Move to Scotland
http://www.walkingclub.org.uk/hills/british_3000_hills_map.shtml
STEP 01: Move to Scotland
http://www.walkingclub.org.uk/hills/british_3000_hills_map.shtml
In reply to davidcooke:
Not unrealistic at all, but you will need to ease yourself into it and start modestly before aiming for the top. Team up with some experienced friends - consider joining a walking club - and build up your skills, experience and fitness over time. Don't hesitate to invest in the kit that really matters, ie. good boots that fit, good waterproofs, map and compass. Don't underestimate the hills and remember that there are no shortcuts to experience, but with that in mind hillwalking is an inclusive activity that can be enjoyed by almost anyone.
This article from the BMC is well worth a read:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/how-to-start-hill-walking?s=3
Most of the 3000ft mountains in the UK are walks of varying degrees of difficulty by their easiest route, but some of the Scottish ones require scrambling or even climbing skills.
Not unrealistic at all, but you will need to ease yourself into it and start modestly before aiming for the top. Team up with some experienced friends - consider joining a walking club - and build up your skills, experience and fitness over time. Don't hesitate to invest in the kit that really matters, ie. good boots that fit, good waterproofs, map and compass. Don't underestimate the hills and remember that there are no shortcuts to experience, but with that in mind hillwalking is an inclusive activity that can be enjoyed by almost anyone.
This article from the BMC is well worth a read:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/how-to-start-hill-walking?s=3
Most of the 3000ft mountains in the UK are walks of varying degrees of difficulty by their easiest route, but some of the Scottish ones require scrambling or even climbing skills.
In reply to davidcooke:
You can walk up all the 3,000' mountains in England in a weekend, you can walk up all the 3,000' mountains in Wales in another weekend, the Scottish ones will take a lot longer. Some will require a little more mountain craft than others, but your challenge is doable and you are not alone in your ambition.
You can walk up all the 3,000' mountains in England in a weekend, you can walk up all the 3,000' mountains in Wales in another weekend, the Scottish ones will take a lot longer. Some will require a little more mountain craft than others, but your challenge is doable and you are not alone in your ambition.
In reply to davidcooke:
there are about 280 Munros (above 3000ft with separation) in scotland. there are also many books on just these, with maps, photos, route descriptions. Cicerone two guides are good (ISBN 978-1-85284-403-5). It will take you years, if you have a life, as it has the several thousand people who have done them all. Lots of spare time & an obsessive personality are a great help
there are about 280 Munros (above 3000ft with separation) in scotland. there are also many books on just these, with maps, photos, route descriptions. Cicerone two guides are good (ISBN 978-1-85284-403-5). It will take you years, if you have a life, as it has the several thousand people who have done them all. Lots of spare time & an obsessive personality are a great help
In reply to Only a hill: And the Wales ones.. Tyfan and Crib Goch will test a fair few walkers.
I think the munros and 3000ers are a great way to develop skills.. from easy walks in the lakes, even easy scottish ones (Ben Lomond, Cairnwell) you can progress through to the more untracked ones and see so much of the country you wouldn't otherwise see..
I'm just over half way through, in no rush though.
Certainly attainable, just depends how quickly.
I think the munros and 3000ers are a great way to develop skills.. from easy walks in the lakes, even easy scottish ones (Ben Lomond, Cairnwell) you can progress through to the more untracked ones and see so much of the country you wouldn't otherwise see..
I'm just over half way through, in no rush though.
Certainly attainable, just depends how quickly.
In reply to davidcooke:
Chances are excellent - the only thing to stop you is yourself. You may have to spend a lot of time in the car - most 3000ft mountains in the UK are in Scotland. There are plenty of guidebooks available, so there are lots of reading options. Oh, and you'll need lots of maps.
The Welsh 3000s are all in the Snowdon National Park and are popular, so there are paths up all of them. Similarly, the English 3000s (all four of them) are in the Lake District and are well catered for with paths.
Scotland has 273 Munros - mountains over 3000ft in Scotland are called Munros - and they are much more spread out than the English and Welsh mountains. They range from those popular ones with easy paths, to more remote ones with much less by way of paths. Scotland has different access laws to England and Wales, so there are more options to make up your own routes and do your own thing. You can usually find a path of sorts, but there's sometimes more fun in working out different approaches which don't use the available paths.
It's generally said that the only Munro which needs a rope is the Inaccessible Pinnacle on Skye. Depending on how you cope with exposed heights, you might also appreciate a rope on a few other peaks on Skye.
If you do decide to go for it, you have a great adventure ahead of you. You've have some splendid days, as good as anything you've experienced before, and you'll have some miserable days when you wonder why on Earth you're bothering. But regardless of the good and bad days, you'll feel very good about yourself for taking on the challenge.
> What are my chances with careful planning and training? Do the peaks have pathways or tracks I would be able to use or would it be a case of climbing up sheer cliff faces. most of you will be laughing at the thought of my ridiculous idea but I can take all the advice you can give and the reason I ask is because I don't know.
Chances are excellent - the only thing to stop you is yourself. You may have to spend a lot of time in the car - most 3000ft mountains in the UK are in Scotland. There are plenty of guidebooks available, so there are lots of reading options. Oh, and you'll need lots of maps.
The Welsh 3000s are all in the Snowdon National Park and are popular, so there are paths up all of them. Similarly, the English 3000s (all four of them) are in the Lake District and are well catered for with paths.
Scotland has 273 Munros - mountains over 3000ft in Scotland are called Munros - and they are much more spread out than the English and Welsh mountains. They range from those popular ones with easy paths, to more remote ones with much less by way of paths. Scotland has different access laws to England and Wales, so there are more options to make up your own routes and do your own thing. You can usually find a path of sorts, but there's sometimes more fun in working out different approaches which don't use the available paths.
It's generally said that the only Munro which needs a rope is the Inaccessible Pinnacle on Skye. Depending on how you cope with exposed heights, you might also appreciate a rope on a few other peaks on Skye.
If you do decide to go for it, you have a great adventure ahead of you. You've have some splendid days, as good as anything you've experienced before, and you'll have some miserable days when you wonder why on Earth you're bothering. But regardless of the good and bad days, you'll feel very good about yourself for taking on the challenge.
In reply to davidcooke: You've already had good answers, the only thing I would add is to be aware that the mountains in winter conditions are a greater challenge with specific skills required and more risks for the reward.
In reply to davidcooke:
good planning info, and a online log on here David
http://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/munros/
Good map and compass skills ,as mentioned, are essential, but if you are into gadgets you can get some electronic mapping software with 3D views to help you get up to speed with map reading.
These can also be used with GPS for an additional safety measure, but as a backup, not your main navigation tool. ( mapping smart phones are unsuitable in my opinion)
Where are you located?
is a bigger task from the far South
>
good planning info, and a online log on here David
http://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/munros/
Good map and compass skills ,as mentioned, are essential, but if you are into gadgets you can get some electronic mapping software with 3D views to help you get up to speed with map reading.
These can also be used with GPS for an additional safety measure, but as a backup, not your main navigation tool. ( mapping smart phones are unsuitable in my opinion)
Where are you located?
is a bigger task from the far South
In reply to davidcooke: It's out of print, sadly, but if you could get a hold of a second-hand copy of:
"High Mountains of Britain and Ireland" by Irvine Butterfield
That would be the bext possible start.
"High Mountains of Britain and Ireland" by Irvine Butterfield
That would be the bext possible start.
In reply to davidcooke:
It will take a bit of time but its all the better for that. Start gentle and easy and you will soon build up the knowledge and experience you will need to be confident. One of the things I like about mountaineering is that it offers a challenge at whatever level you approach it - very, very few of the 3000' mountains have obligatory climbing or scrambling though you can soon find yourself relishing rather than fearing technical ground.
I climbed loads of my munros round by myself but having some like minded mates to share the ambition and the journey will help keep you enthusiastic ( at least until you're a hopeless addict).Perfectly achievable goal- not a midlife crisis but harvesting the fruit of your wisdom perhaps? The best of luck David.
It will take a bit of time but its all the better for that. Start gentle and easy and you will soon build up the knowledge and experience you will need to be confident. One of the things I like about mountaineering is that it offers a challenge at whatever level you approach it - very, very few of the 3000' mountains have obligatory climbing or scrambling though you can soon find yourself relishing rather than fearing technical ground.
I climbed loads of my munros round by myself but having some like minded mates to share the ambition and the journey will help keep you enthusiastic ( at least until you're a hopeless addict).Perfectly achievable goal- not a midlife crisis but harvesting the fruit of your wisdom perhaps? The best of luck David.
In reply to Pero:
I'd second that. It's a lovely book, and doesn't take the same single-route approach to the hills that most other guidebooks take, encouraging readers to make their own routes and explore the options. Copies are available on AbeBooks.
> (In reply to davidcooke) It's out of print, sadly, but if you could get a hold of a second-hand copy of:
>
> "High Mountains of Britain and Ireland" by Irvine Butterfield
>
> "High Mountains of Britain and Ireland" by Irvine Butterfield
I'd second that. It's a lovely book, and doesn't take the same single-route approach to the hills that most other guidebooks take, encouraging readers to make their own routes and explore the options. Copies are available on AbeBooks.
In reply to tony:
Scotland has 273! - I think you've lost a few!
Scotland has 273! - I think you've lost a few!
In reply to The Watch of Barrisdale:
Yup, minor brainstorm there - not quite sure where that came from.
> (In reply to tony)
> Scotland has 273! - I think you've lost a few!
> Scotland has 273! - I think you've lost a few!
Yup, minor brainstorm there - not quite sure where that came from.
In reply to The Watch of Barrisdale: The Butterfield Book, which is all I used for years, includes a few that were demoted in the 70's. So, it was a surprise to me to learn that Glen Feshie was reduced from 5 to 2 and that Beinn an Lochain and Beinn Dearg (Torridon) are no longer Munros.
The official list now has 282, of course, with the recent latest demotions. There are now 11 that were on the original list that have been demoted. I could see no reason to omit these hills, so my own list has 293! Including the ones that were added in 1998, of course.
The official list now has 282, of course, with the recent latest demotions. There are now 11 that were on the original list that have been demoted. I could see no reason to omit these hills, so my own list has 293! Including the ones that were added in 1998, of course.
In reply to davidcooke: A few Munro-related UKH articles for some inspiration.
Lorraine McCall's first female walking round: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/page.php?id=3710
Steve Perry's first winter round entirely on foot:
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/page.php?id=4400
Stephen 'Spyke' Pyke's record breaking Munro run:
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/page.php?id=3467
Most baggers are less ambitious/time rich, and work through their list (currently 282 in Scotland, plus the few down south) over a period of years, a few at a time.
There are plenty of 3000-ers routes in our Route Cards database here: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/logbook/r/find.php
And here are logbook lists of...
Scottish Munros: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/logbook/set.php?id=11
Welsh 3000-ers: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/logbook/set.php?id=22
'Furth' Munros (ie 3000-ers of England, Ireland and Wales - peaks that are 'furth' or outside of scotland):
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/logbook/set.php?id=243 ...this particular list seems to include Broad Crag and Ill Crag in England, though they're not generally regarded as independent mountains since they're just minor bumps on the Scafell Pike range.
There are dozens of guidebooks to British and Irish 3000-ers. For Scotland i'd start with one of the definitive Munro books like:
The Munros, published by SMC
The Munros, published by Pocket Mountains
Lorraine McCall's first female walking round: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/page.php?id=3710
Steve Perry's first winter round entirely on foot:
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/page.php?id=4400
Stephen 'Spyke' Pyke's record breaking Munro run:
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/page.php?id=3467
Most baggers are less ambitious/time rich, and work through their list (currently 282 in Scotland, plus the few down south) over a period of years, a few at a time.
There are plenty of 3000-ers routes in our Route Cards database here: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/logbook/r/find.php
And here are logbook lists of...
Scottish Munros: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/logbook/set.php?id=11
Welsh 3000-ers: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/logbook/set.php?id=22
'Furth' Munros (ie 3000-ers of England, Ireland and Wales - peaks that are 'furth' or outside of scotland):
http://www.ukhillwalking.com/logbook/set.php?id=243 ...this particular list seems to include Broad Crag and Ill Crag in England, though they're not generally regarded as independent mountains since they're just minor bumps on the Scafell Pike range.
There are dozens of guidebooks to British and Irish 3000-ers. For Scotland i'd start with one of the definitive Munro books like:
The Munros, published by SMC
The Munros, published by Pocket Mountains
In reply to davidcooke:
I would advise you to consider prominence as well as height as a criteria. Otherwise how do you decide which up and down is a peak and which is not? - other than by cobbling together other peoples' lists into one inconsistent whole.
I would advise you to consider prominence as well as height as a criteria. Otherwise how do you decide which up and down is a peak and which is not? - other than by cobbling together other peoples' lists into one inconsistent whole.
In reply to davidcooke: I saw the Butterfield book for sale in Cotswold in London today!
In reply to davidcooke:
Your ambition is do-able, as long as you retain a certain degree of health. And you possibly need less "health" than you might imagine. I have seen people in wheelchairs atop Ben Nevis (with a little help from their friends).
Of course, if you are obsessive and want to get to the top of every 3,000 ft peak in the UK, you run the risk of getting into arcane debates about what actually counts as a "peak." In Scotland, for example, there are currently 282 "official" Munros and a further 227 "Tops".
But your quest will take you to some wonderful and beautiful places, and get you fit, and sometimes miserable (walking in mist and midges is NOT fun).
And there are lots of other excuses to get into the hills. Some of Britain's bonniest hills are under 3,000 feet, but are still serious undertakings. Suilven is an obvious example, or the Rhum Cuillin, or Cir Mhor on Arran.
There are plenty of walking clubs, both local ones and national groups like the Ramblers. Then there are various walking festivals.
I dare say you could ask on here on the Lifts and Partners section for people to go with, and there are plenty of folks here who take people into the hills for a living, and so there's loads of training and advice you can get if you want to pay for it.
Have fun!
Your ambition is do-able, as long as you retain a certain degree of health. And you possibly need less "health" than you might imagine. I have seen people in wheelchairs atop Ben Nevis (with a little help from their friends).
Of course, if you are obsessive and want to get to the top of every 3,000 ft peak in the UK, you run the risk of getting into arcane debates about what actually counts as a "peak." In Scotland, for example, there are currently 282 "official" Munros and a further 227 "Tops".
But your quest will take you to some wonderful and beautiful places, and get you fit, and sometimes miserable (walking in mist and midges is NOT fun).
And there are lots of other excuses to get into the hills. Some of Britain's bonniest hills are under 3,000 feet, but are still serious undertakings. Suilven is an obvious example, or the Rhum Cuillin, or Cir Mhor on Arran.
There are plenty of walking clubs, both local ones and national groups like the Ramblers. Then there are various walking festivals.
I dare say you could ask on here on the Lifts and Partners section for people to go with, and there are plenty of folks here who take people into the hills for a living, and so there's loads of training and advice you can get if you want to pay for it.
Have fun!
In reply to mysterion & almost sane:
For instance:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=552730
> I would advise you to consider prominence as well as height as a criteria. Otherwise how do you decide which up and down is a peak and which is not? - other than by cobbling together other peoples' lists into one inconsistent whole.
> Of course, if you are obsessive and want to get to the top of every 3,000 ft peak in the UK, you run the risk of getting into arcane debates about what actually counts as a "peak".
For instance:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=552730
In reply to davidcooke:
I'd guess many folk on this forum have sporadically built up their hillwalking experience over the years- and that experience will include getting lost, becoming exhausted etc. These things will happen- it's what you do when they happen that will make the difference.
'Only a hill' gives sound advice but if your ambition outstrips that of friends/walking club -or maybe if you're not the gregarious type, I'd recommend signing up for a course at a Centre such as Plas-y Brenin to build your self reliance and confidence.
Snowdonia is a great place to develop a sense of the spatial arrangement of mountains ( relative to each other). It's an intimate enough area that after a few visits you'll have seen the same hill from different angles and have built up a sense of where the valleys, roads,routes are. If and when you get to Scotland, you're then less likely to be overwhelmed by things.
Butterfield's book gives a sense of days out, the spirit of adventure. The SMC book details every 'munro' but does tend to atomise the whole experience of being on the hills. But I guess the latter is a better reflection of the hill experience for the car addicted.
'Dan Bailey' claims that most munro baggers take their time on their quest because they are less time rich. I would argue that that this is not so. Each person has their own priorities in life.
Last summer I walked across the 3000' mountains of Wales, England and Scotland on my own, cycling between the groups, with my wife at home sending food parcels ahead to Hostels etc. I was not super fit and had not walked much in the Lake District or Scotland. I blogged about it on the 'ScottishHills' website as 'imstuc' and titled it 'in at the deep end' (I don't know how you do the hypertext link).
I was 52 when I set off, and my ambition was to walk from my house in Bethesda, across the 3000's, to see the bits of Britain I cherish, just once in my lifetime. Mid life crisis? Call it what you like if it nudges you in new directions- you don't have to wait until you're an 'expert'.
it's not ridiculous.
As for 'experience'- for some it's no more than 'making the same mistakes with increasing confidence over an impressive number of years'
I'd guess many folk on this forum have sporadically built up their hillwalking experience over the years- and that experience will include getting lost, becoming exhausted etc. These things will happen- it's what you do when they happen that will make the difference.
'Only a hill' gives sound advice but if your ambition outstrips that of friends/walking club -or maybe if you're not the gregarious type, I'd recommend signing up for a course at a Centre such as Plas-y Brenin to build your self reliance and confidence.
Snowdonia is a great place to develop a sense of the spatial arrangement of mountains ( relative to each other). It's an intimate enough area that after a few visits you'll have seen the same hill from different angles and have built up a sense of where the valleys, roads,routes are. If and when you get to Scotland, you're then less likely to be overwhelmed by things.
Butterfield's book gives a sense of days out, the spirit of adventure. The SMC book details every 'munro' but does tend to atomise the whole experience of being on the hills. But I guess the latter is a better reflection of the hill experience for the car addicted.
'Dan Bailey' claims that most munro baggers take their time on their quest because they are less time rich. I would argue that that this is not so. Each person has their own priorities in life.
Last summer I walked across the 3000' mountains of Wales, England and Scotland on my own, cycling between the groups, with my wife at home sending food parcels ahead to Hostels etc. I was not super fit and had not walked much in the Lake District or Scotland. I blogged about it on the 'ScottishHills' website as 'imstuc' and titled it 'in at the deep end' (I don't know how you do the hypertext link).
I was 52 when I set off, and my ambition was to walk from my house in Bethesda, across the 3000's, to see the bits of Britain I cherish, just once in my lifetime. Mid life crisis? Call it what you like if it nudges you in new directions- you don't have to wait until you're an 'expert'.
it's not ridiculous.
As for 'experience'- for some it's no more than 'making the same mistakes with increasing confidence over an impressive number of years'
In reply to davidcooke:
>"What are my chances with careful planning and training?"
Very good. Getting started isn't hard, the training and planning for summer walking is minimal. Navigation with a map and compass in hill fog being the most important skill to learn quickly. You'll get away without it over the summer by picking your hill and day carefully but eventually you'll find yourself alone, in the mist, without a path, so basic nagigation skills are a must.
You'll quickly spend a grand on gear but the stuff will then last for years.
You'll get this from an instructional book or the BMC video but to give you an idea of the sort of kit you should be researching, for summer I think the essensials are:
Boots: The Goretex fabric type are best to start with but eventually your need a second sturdier pair that take crampons for winter walking.
Rain jacket: A good brand (Berghaus, Northface, etc)Goretex fabric is a save bet.
Rucsak: 30-40 litre capacity with ice axe and crampon attachment points, again a good brand will last for years.
Gaitors: Again Goretex fabric is a safe bet.
Gloves: Gore-windstoper fabric works well.
Hat: Any old fleece material is good.
Fleece jacket: Pretty much anything'll work.
Wicking base layer: Helly Hanson type is good or Ice Breaker if you have the money.
Trousers: Any light-weight, fast drying man-made fabric
Compass: Basic model, Silva being a good brand.
Emergency Stuff: whistle, headtorch, survival bag, spare fleece jacket, spare fleece hat & spare fleece gloves.
Stuff for winter you'll need in the future:
Winter boots
Ice axe
Crampons
Waterproof over trousers or sallopetts
Bivi bag or Bothy shelter
Down jacket for emergency and "apres" use
Big waterproof mitts
Ski goggles
Dry bag (to line your rucsak)
Walking pole(s)
>"Do the peaks have pathways or tracks I would be able to use or would it be a case of climbing up sheer cliff faces."
Most have a path of one sorts or another. There's are a few harder ones, but even those are at the very very low end of difficulty on the rock climbing scale. By the time you get to those ones you'll know what your are up against so I wouldn't be too conserned as this stage.
>"What are my chances with careful planning and training?"
Very good. Getting started isn't hard, the training and planning for summer walking is minimal. Navigation with a map and compass in hill fog being the most important skill to learn quickly. You'll get away without it over the summer by picking your hill and day carefully but eventually you'll find yourself alone, in the mist, without a path, so basic nagigation skills are a must.
You'll quickly spend a grand on gear but the stuff will then last for years.
You'll get this from an instructional book or the BMC video but to give you an idea of the sort of kit you should be researching, for summer I think the essensials are:
Boots: The Goretex fabric type are best to start with but eventually your need a second sturdier pair that take crampons for winter walking.
Rain jacket: A good brand (Berghaus, Northface, etc)Goretex fabric is a save bet.
Rucsak: 30-40 litre capacity with ice axe and crampon attachment points, again a good brand will last for years.
Gaitors: Again Goretex fabric is a safe bet.
Gloves: Gore-windstoper fabric works well.
Hat: Any old fleece material is good.
Fleece jacket: Pretty much anything'll work.
Wicking base layer: Helly Hanson type is good or Ice Breaker if you have the money.
Trousers: Any light-weight, fast drying man-made fabric
Compass: Basic model, Silva being a good brand.
Emergency Stuff: whistle, headtorch, survival bag, spare fleece jacket, spare fleece hat & spare fleece gloves.
Stuff for winter you'll need in the future:
Winter boots
Ice axe
Crampons
Waterproof over trousers or sallopetts
Bivi bag or Bothy shelter
Down jacket for emergency and "apres" use
Big waterproof mitts
Ski goggles
Dry bag (to line your rucsak)
Walking pole(s)
>"Do the peaks have pathways or tracks I would be able to use or would it be a case of climbing up sheer cliff faces."
Most have a path of one sorts or another. There's are a few harder ones, but even those are at the very very low end of difficulty on the rock climbing scale. By the time you get to those ones you'll know what your are up against so I wouldn't be too conserned as this stage.
In reply to davidcooke: Thank you very much for the advice. I am impressed with the friendly advice and time taken by everyone on the site to give free advice.
In reply to Jim C: Dear Jim, I am in the south from the very mountainous county of Somerset lol. Thank you very much for the advice. I am impressed with the friendly advice and time taken by everyone on the site to give free advice.
In reply to Pero: Thank you very much for the advice. I am impressed with the friendly advice and time taken by everyone on the site to give free advice.
In reply to andrew ogilvie: Thank you very much for the advice. I am impressed with the friendly advice and time taken by everyone on the site to give free advice.
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com: Thank you very much for the advice. I am impressed with the friendly advice and time taken by everyone on the site to give free advice.
In reply to mysterion: Thank you very much for the advice. I am impressed with the friendly advice and time taken by everyone on the site to give free advice.
In reply to almost sane: Thank you very much for the advice. I am impressed with the friendly advice and time taken by everyone on the site to give free advice.
In reply to captain paranoia: Thank you very much for the advice. I am impressed with the friendly advice and time taken by everyone on the site to give free advice.
In reply to llechwedd: Thank you very much for the advice. I am impressed with the friendly advice and time taken by everyone on the site to give free advice.
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