/ Theft of gear from a wall

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blindskies - on 14 Jun 2013
Here’s a question: what would you do if your grigri/gridlock combo went missing when you left it at your local climbing wall, only to find out that it was put on eBay 4hrs after you left the wall (2hrs after the wall closed) by someone who worked in a senior position at the uni sports centre that the wall was located at? This happened to me, and the sports centre only gave them the equivalent of a slap on the wrist. The centre are aware of all the info that I had collected, including an email confessing to the crime and an eBay history containing a lot of climbing equipment, and yet they let the thief keep their job. What would you guys do?
KiwiPrincess - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:
Ask for them to buy you a new one or contact the police.
blindskies - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to KiwiPrincess: I actually got the stuff back. The centre only gave a verbal warning to the individual, even though they had the same information that I did. Maybe still go to the police, eh?
JayPee630 - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

Not sure, I'd be wary of going to the police myself. Did they apologise or admit they'd done something wrong? Are there any extenuating circumstances?
Minneconjou Sioux - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

I'd put it down to experience and move on. You got your gear back, the person has been reprimanded, anything more would seem vindictive.

People sometimes do odd things out of character and while I don't know that this is the case here, the benefit of the doubt (once) wins over more severe punishment.
Trangia - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

Frankly I am amazed that the individual wasn't given instant dismissal, but I suppose that even though you are the victim, ultimately it's up to the employers to make the final decision. I would feel uncomfortable to use a gym which continued to employ a thief and would be inclined to ask for a refund of my membership and go to another gym in future.
xplorer on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Trangia:

I would either demand they loose their job, or I would advertise the fact that people who work for the wall are thieves.

Also I'd punch him in the mouth
JayPee630 - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to xplorer:

Well, that's very sensible and not macho and stupid at all. You'd have committed a worse crime and could well find yourself in serious trouble for that.
JayPee630 - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to xplorer:

"People that work for the wall." Errr... one person, of which you know nothing about the circumstances or background.
Andrew Wilson - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to JayPee630:
There could be something about his/her background that would permit him/her to steal?
Trangia - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Andrew Wilson:
> (In reply to JayPee630)
> There could be something about his/her background that would permit him/her to steal?

For example?
paget - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:
You are on a forum for climbers, maybe use it to advertise the problem;
1/ which wall was it?
2/ what is the individual called?
3/ what position did he hold?

It would also not be vindictive to report it to the police. He stole from you, he is a thief. The establish,net are being complicit if they retain his services.

You also wasted your own time having to resolve the issue. I'd be tempted to send them an invoice for any time and expense you went to in investigating the matter.

I'd also report him to eBay and they'll bar his account. If they don't just kill it with feedback.

Then if he's a climber on here, highlight his profile as part of your campaign for justice.

Inform the local paper, get them to highlight thefts at the local sports venue.

Or

Just chill and allow people to take your property that you worked for, that you earned and that they didn't and always be a victim.
Thats what some people seem to be suggesting! Very charitable.






puppythedog on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to paget: I'm with Paget.
xplorer on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to JayPee630:

It's wasn't you was it?

I was joking of course. I'd have him sacked or go to the police. I wouldn't be happy about him still working there. Simple the guys a thief. Scum of the earth.

And I don't need to know his back ground, or circumstances. How about I come and steal your rack, and I tell you I had a rough child hood. Is that ok?

You sound about 60
xplorer on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Trangia: jaypee630

I just found a report on the Internet, stating you two were the masterminds behind the wall thief.

I don't get you at all.

Someone was caught stealing equipment from a customer, if I had stolen something as a customer I'd be banned from the wall
Trangia - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to xplorer:

I've just found a report on the Internet stating that you are an idiot who doesn't read other people's posts properly.
ERU - on 14 Jun 2013
What uni wall was it?
xplorer on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Trangia:

What was you're point then, you weren't very clear?
JayPee630 - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Andrew Wilson:

Maybe he's having some mental health issues at the moment, maybe someone very close to him has just died and he's struggling and needs help and this was a way of getting attention. Maybe... maybe... maybe. And yes, for sure maybe he's just nicked it to make some quick cash. (But there might also be all sorts of reasons that would be understandable for that too.)

I don't know the background, I do just know from experience of working with people in a healthcare setting being a little slower to judge and threaten people might do us all a little good. And thinking you're some Charles Bronson type character threatening to punch some is both stupid and immature.
Trangia - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to xplorer:

In what respect is my post of 05.59 unclear?
JayPee630 - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to xplorer:

Yup, simple, everyone who's ever stolen anything is 'scum of the earth'. Wow. That's a pretty nice attitude.

Does that extend to breaking any law ever then? Never speeded in a car yourself have you? Far riskier to other people that nicking something.
Trangia - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to JayPee630:

Andrew Wilson suggested that there coulfd be something in his/her backgound which would "permit" him/her to steal.

There may be reasons or explanations for the behaviour but are there ever any circumstances which "permit" someone to steal?

Andrew Wilson - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Trangia:
Funny. I could direct you to the question mark at the end of my post :-)
JayPee630 - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Trangia:

I think you misunderstood his post. I assumed he was questioning me saying it might not be as clear cut as him just being 'scum' as someone has so nicely suggested.
Trangia - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Andrew Wilson:

This thread is getting silly.

Everyone seems to misunderstanding each other :)
yarbles - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies: Publicity is the best course of action. In my experience police are utterly useless.
jkarran - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

> ...The centre are aware of all the info that I had collected, including an email confessing to the crime and an eBay history containing a lot of climbing equipment, and yet they let the thief keep their job. What would you guys do?

What do *you* want to do? Do it.
jk
Milesy - on 14 Jun 2013
Sorry but I detest thieves. I stay in an area of high burglary and car theft and stealing from your fellow working man is disgusting regardless of how you sugarcoat. "It's not like you were murdered"
Kemics - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

The fact it was on ebay so fast suggests it was specifically stolen for profit. It wasn't like you left it after hours, they found it, waited to see if anyone collected it and then decided to sell it later after trying to return it.

This was stolen for money. Exactly the same as if they had lifted your phone, or taken money out of your wallet.

I'm staggered any employer would still want anything to do with them. I'm equally surprised people think this is okay. Would be instant dismissal at any job i've ever worked in.
JayPee630 - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Kemics:

Calm down, nobody has said it's OK to steal like this, just that it'd be nice to know if there were any more details before he go to the police and potentially ruin someone's life for a silly mistake they made.

If it were me I'd talk to the wall manager and see what's going on. It'd be surprising if there wasn't anything more complex at work here.
Jamie B - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Trangia:

> This thread is getting silly.
> Everyone seems to misunderstanding each other :)

No we're not! I understand completely that the hatstands only come in velvet. Boing!

Kemics - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to JayPee630:

In the words of the great Walter Sobchak "I'm perfectly calm, Dude"

Was just expressing my surprise that the employer didn't instantly fire them. But in a chilled yoga vibe, not a frothing Daily Mail vibe.
winhill - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

technically it sounds like theft by finding, as you left it at the wall, I imagine the centre thought of it as not following procedure for lost property.

same as if you find a ball in the park and throw it for your dog.

would the CPS prosecute in this case? probably unlikely, unless you could demonstrate a pattern.
JayPee630 - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Kemics:

Yes, I'm surprised as well, which is why I wonder if there's something else going on.
Rock Badger on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

Name them and shame them, the wall and shady person that had your gear on ebay so super quick. Good to let others know so they dont accidentally leave their car keys or wallet for an hour and they are gone, being sold on the internet by a member of staff,,,,,,

I mean come on he/she works in the place,,,,LOST PROPERTY

Milesy - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to winhill:
> same as if you find a ball in the park and throw it for your dog.

No it isn't. If you found a ball you would be unlikely to be able to trace the owner, and the costs of which would likely outweigh the cost of the ball. If you find climbing gear within a centre used by climbers then it is likely that 1. the owner will return for it as they will know where they left it, 2. a finder could easily publicise the finding of the item such as a notice board or leaving with reception/lost property. Not the same thing at all.
Rock Badger on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

An see these people that are like,, oh you dont know their circumstances,,, f*ck that robbing is robbing,, they know its wrong,,,,,,,,,,,,,oh be kind to them,,,,er no they are thieves,,,,
Rock Badger on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

and CANT be TRUSTED obviously
JoshOvki on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Rock Badger:

I agree, apart from on the commas. Other people trying to make excuses for their actions just enforces that it is okay to steal from someone.

"Oh but they have a drug additiction" etc, I should fund this why exactly?
Milesy - on 14 Jun 2013
I am sure the guy who stole my neighbours car the other day has maybe had a hard life and has reasons for doing it but should they be allowed for that reason? I don't think so.
cuppatea on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:
> What would you guys do?

Never mind that.
What would Jack Bauer do?

As to what you should do, what do you seek to gain?
An apology? Justice? Revenge? A warning to others? An explanation? Compensation?

I think my first step might be to phone/write to the centre manager and get more information.

puppythedog on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to JayPee630: Interesting because in my experience of working with people in healthcare I cannot think of a time ever when any of my colleagues would have felt criminal justice system should not deal with criminal justice issues. Let's also remember the Ebay history of selling other climbing gear which is not conclusive proof (or any proof) that they have done it before but does raise my suspicion.
If a person is going of the rails they are not entitled to steal, we are not going to know why the centre made the decision they did but I cannot think of any mitigating circumstances that mean such gentle action should have been taken.
Rock Badger on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

Name them and shame them. Power to the people, people need to know where this occurs to avoid it/the place.
Hat Dude on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

I think that the Sports Centre should at least explain to you why they haven't taken more serious action and then you should think about any further course of action.
JayPee630 - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to puppythedog:

Really? So you think the police should be informed every time you know something illegal has been done, no matter how trivial? Wow.

Let's get this straight... NOBODY HAS SAID THEY ARE ENTITLED TO, NOR IS IT OK TO STEAL FROM PEOPLE AT THE WALL, so stop suggesting they have.

Right, now we have got that out of the way, I'm just suggesting that there might be circumstances worth finding out about before you jump to action and go to the police or publically name and shame him and the wall (and the manager who might also lose their job over this).
The Lemming - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:


If everything in your OP is factual and you do not want to go to the police, then simply state which Climbing Wall that your gear went missing.

Milesy - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to JayPee630:

And several people have intimated WE DON'T CARE ABOUT THE CIRCUMSTANCES! EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD HAS CIRCUMSTANCES!

Wow caps lock makes things more important!
MJ - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to puppythedog:

but I cannot think of any mitigating circumstances that mean such gentle action should have been taken.

Maybe the fact that the person held a 'senior position' had some influence on the decision?

From the original post: by someone who worked in a senior position at the uni sports centre

JayPee630 - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Rock Badger:

"Robbing is robbing" all sounds very good, but it's not is it really? You just sound like a Daily Mail headline.

There are different types of theft and reasons behind it. The courts and justice system recognize this so it's hardly a ridiculous suggestion. Al that is being suggested here is that if he's really unhappy at the way this has been dealt with he approaches the wall and tries to get more info rather than jumping to a course of action that might be mis-judged.
JayPee630 - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Milesy:

Well, since people have missed it in others posts, I'm shouting it!
Milesy - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to JayPee630:

No one has missed it. I seen it but disregarded it as irrelevant. I don't give a monkey's what the mitigating circumstances are. That is up to the justice system to take into consideration. I abhor theft.
MJ - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to JayPee630:

Al that is being suggested here is that if he's really unhappy at the way this has been dealt with he approaches the wall and tries to get more info rather than jumping to a course of action that might be mis-judged.

Maybe not get the Police involved, but from what I can tell, the Wall seem quite happy to sweep it under the carpet and all but ignore it.
By all means ask the Wall for clarification, but I'd be tempted to involve the senior management of the Sports Centre and possibly the University itself.
If indeed there are extenuating circumstances, then they'll be discovered in due course and the appropriate action taken. However, they would have to be pretty extreme to excuse theft from customers.
goose299 - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:
How do we still not now which wall it was at yet?
Rock Badger on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to JayPee630:

Eh yes it is really,what reasons would make it ok. I think their is little point going to the cops and wasting their time and our money. The best course of action would be to name them so others can no. Mind you id only do that if they did not know my address, :) who knows what they might be capable of, oh ye stir it up.

This sounds like the type of person to find a half full bag of gear at the bottom of a crag and take it because no body was in sight or sitting next to it. Then sell it all on the net to make some cash,,,well shady, and they know it.
Dave 88 - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to MJ:
> (In reply to puppythedog)
>
> but I cannot think of any mitigating circumstances that mean such gentle action should have been taken.
>
> Maybe the fact that the person held a 'senior position' had some influence on the decision?
>

I think puppythedog meant from a healthcare perspective.

MJ - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Dave 88:

I think puppythedog meant from a healthcare perspective.

On reflection you are probably right. However, the person still held a 'senior position', which may have had some influence on the end result.
Anyway, as I said in a later post, I'd report it to the management structures above their immediate one.
stevieb - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:
I think you should list his ebay user name here, now. None of us want to buy from him.
You should also raise the issue with ebay.
The climbing wall have not dealt with this in an appropriate manner. You are perfectly entitled to take this to the police if you choose to.
Trangia - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

> What would you guys do?

Well, you've had lots of advice, even demands!

So do tell us what are you going to do?
Boogs on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

Another vote for naming and shaming please so we can choose not to go to the wall , the way I see it the staff at the wall are complicit so don't deserve our custom and hard earned if they allow this .

Be nice to know the ebay username as well because I'm watching and about to bid on some gear but won't bother if it could be stolen .
puppythedog on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to MJ: In fact my point was that there is no justification/mitigation even from a healthcare perspective. I'm in the name and shame camp on this one.
ads.ukclimbing.com
bigfoot007 - on 14 Jun 2013
i think i heard some people talking about this recently at my wall. i was shocked when i heard this but did not know this shady character only got a slap on the wrist for it.

i might be jumping the gun and the OP might need to confirm this as it may have happened at another wall (unlikely)


it was at the rock solid climbing wall at Brookes University. i dont know the name of the staff member but i think something was said about him being a duty manager

JayPee630 - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to puppythedog:

What kind of healthcare professional are you btw? What about mental health issues, surely that's might be mitigation in some cases?
Nevis-the-cat - on 14 Jun 2013


Jimmy Saville started out by nicking Radio 1 ashtrays. They swept that under the carpet and look where it ended up.

fairweatherclimber - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

You left the kit there, it wasn't lifted from your bag; it is slightly different.

Some walls/ gyms etc seem to have somewhat lax/ opaque systems for managing lost property. Many people working there are on low wages and I wonder (no personal experience) if there's sometimes an unofficial "finders keepers" rule amongst staff, and management look the other way. Like tips for restaurant staff. If this were the case then whoever is looking the other way is most to blame IMO.

If the system looks dodgy I would insist that a robust system is implemented, and communicated to both staff and customers to your satisfaction. Then you've done us all a favour.

Police involvement without full knowledge looks OTT.
Milesy - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to JayPee630:
> What kind of healthcare professional are you btw? What about mental health issues, surely that's might be mitigation in some cases?

Yes for the prosecution. Not every tom dick and harry.
Nevis-the-cat - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to fairweatherclimber:
> (In reply to blindskies)
>
> You left the kit there, it wasn't lifted from your bag; it is slightly different.
>

It's theft by finding. Anyone who's stopped believing in santa knows that sooner or later the owner will be in touch asking the question "Have you found my expensive bit of belay kit".


> Police involvement without full knowledge looks OTT.

Personally, I'd keep going to the wall, but belay with a figure of 8 to annoy the floor pixies and make the point that some knut nicked your gri-gri.
jkarran - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to bigfoot007:

> it was at the rock solid climbing wall at Brookes University. i dont know the name of the staff member but i think something was said about him being a duty manager

Given your apparent lack of certainty regarding the facts that seems like a rather unwise post!

jk
arran curran - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

Climbing walls are unique as far as sport venues go. I've been a regular member of 4 centres now and I've climbed in countless walls all over the UK and abroad and there is definitely a unique sense of community that u don't get at other types of sporting venues, at this centre the sense of community is probably diluted by the rest of the centre. Im sure when the duty manager of a climbing wall is a climber they don't go around pinching your grigri! I would imagine that if this happened at any one of the countless dedicated climbing centres in the UK that the member of staff would have been fired within hours of this happening.
ShaunRudge - on 14 Jun 2013
Firstly I would just like to say that it wasn't any member of the climbing staff at the Brookes Rock Solid Wall. They are all very trustworthy individuals, and would never do anything backhanded like this. I know them all pretty well and I couldn't give them more praise for the job they do.

Unfortunately the climbing wall is in a larger sports centre complex, and there are other staff un-associated to the climbing wall who clean and empty bins at the wall etc. It was one of these staff who took the GriGri and none of the climbing wall staff.

Personally I feel like the centre's management have dealt with this problem badly, and I agree with blindskies that something else needs to be done, otherwise the sports centre have given the impression to staff that you can get away with this kind of crime with just a verbal warning.

Personally I would write to someone higher up at the university, and hope this got dealt with, and if nothing happened then I would go to the police. I dont think it's up to the OP to decide what mitigating circumstances there are, that's for the law to decide.

Unfortunately it wont let me link any of the other items that have been sold from this ebay account, (There aren't that many) but his username is adventurer84 so if you have had stuff go missing it might be worth having a look at his seller history and contact the OP if you recognise any of the items.
Fraser on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

You could always just start another thread here and say you'd had a Grigri stolen at wall 'X' and saw it was shortly thereafter advertised on eBay.

Light blue touchpaper and stand well back.
arran curran - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

That's an odd amount of climbing stuff for a none climber to sell, and also whose buying a second hand harness!

http://tinyurl.com/lg8lfmp
John W - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to arran curran:

It's also quite noticeable how many items could have been "lost property" at a Sports Centre.

(disclaimer - this is an observation, not an accusation).
Carolyn - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

Item 350786462812 is interesting, given the story.....
cuppatea on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to John W:

I'm no Poirot but the seller has his items listed as being located in Weymouth.
Some items have been picked up.

Weymouth is quite a commute from Oxford.

cuppatea on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Carolyn:

Indeed! A bin find?


I'm jumping on the bandwagon :-

This could well have been the best troll thread in the World, ever. But the OP broke the rules.

Wonder if the full story will ever emerge.
Carolyn - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to cuppatea:

If you look in the individual item listings, at least some give the location as Oxford.
Mungo Shuntobox - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to arran curran:

guys can I just give a police perspective; the police do have a certain amount of latitude to deal with first time offenders and those that may want to offer excuses/mitigation for their crime. So going to the police isn't neccessarily going to ruin someone's life. However the quality of service you may get as a victim can be variable, and it's rare for victims to be totally satisfied.

Looking at the eBay site; if this is the right person, all my instincts are that this is someone who's nicking climbing gear on a regular basis, and that he needs dealing with officially.

I hope that was constructive after some of the silliness above and that the OP does something that will stop other climbers getting their gear nicked.
Unknown Climber - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

Having seen that list from ebay I would inform the police. It looks possible that you're not the first person this has happened to.

Good work spotting your stuff on ebay and following it up.
John_Hat - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to John W:

Identical to my thoughts. We have (multiple) womens harnesses, (several) male climbing shoes, plus a lot of other *easily portable* items like, well, two Ipods, two or three watches, and more hoodies than you can shake a stick at, etc.

Again, I would like to make the point that this is observation, not accusation. However in the OP's position I would involve the police and let them determine the validity of any accusations.
elsewhere on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to John W:
Selling lost property after nobody has claimed it a few months or a year is perfectly normal/reasonable so ebay could be the legitmate way of disposing of unclaimed lost property.

Selling it hours after it was lost is theft and would normally be final warning, instant dismissal or police. There could be some extenuating circumstances but most theives are just theives.
cuppatea on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Carolyn:

That's more like it. I looked at a few and they were all Weymouth.
MJ - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to cuppatea:

I'm no Poirot but the seller has his items listed as being located in Weymouth.
Some items have been picked up.

Weymouth is quite a commute from Oxford.


Wasn't Poirot London based?
With the Oxford connection, you might be better off getting Morse involved.
Jim C - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies: maybe I am too forgiving, but it is the Uni's judgement as the employer, and they will have internal procedures that they have to comply with as well as what is required by law to avoid unfair dismissal legislation etc.

I am thinking also that jobs are hard to find, maybe they have given them a second ( possibly last chance) rather than have them with a dismissal or a criminal record, that will follow them through life. It is easy to say punish him, but we are not aware off what the 'slap on the wrist' was they were given.

All that said, In my younger days, I had a fishing reel stolen, I had my suspicions, and managed to catch the person out, and I 'retrieved' it myself with no police. I would not get away with that these days, so maybe best not t take he advice of the poster who mentioned the punch in the mouth .
cuppatea on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to MJ:

True enough!

Perhaps he could team up with Barnaby to make sure the body count was high enough ;-)
PopShot on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies: I've noticed in recent years that the "crag swag" mentality to found gear has infiltrated the indoor climbing walls.
arran curran - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to PopShot:

The person responsible is not a climber.
GrahamD - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to PopShot:
> (In reply to blindskies) I've noticed in recent years that the "crag swag" mentality to found gear has infiltrated the indoor climbing walls.

Eh ? how can you deliberately abandon gear in doors ?

Nevis-the-cat - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to PopShot:

If he's the cleaner, he's selling his own kit

Hoover Freespace Nanopack Vacuum Cleaner (#260630997056)
Oceanrower - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to arran curran:
> (In reply to PopShot)
>
> The person responsible is not a climber.

For a non climber, he sure does sell a lot of climbing gear!
arran curran - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Oceanrower:

Yes, odd isn't it...
Donquidharbi - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to ShaunRudge:

I echo Arran and Shaun here. All of the wall staff at Rock Solid are good, professional people and I would be happy to stand in defence of any of them...

This would probably come as a surprise because I'm usually insulting them to there faces!!
PopShot on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to PopShot)
> [...]
>
> Eh ? how can you deliberately abandon gear in doors ?

A lot of people refer to any found gear as swag now.
Blizzard - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

What an strange post and some outrageous replies. You got your stuff back, whats the problem here?

Presumably with all this negative publicity everyone knows the guilty party, so people are more careful around him.

Some people on here seem to lack any compassion.
Tricky Dicky - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to MJ:
>> With the Oxford connection, you might be better off getting Morse involved.

Morse is dead, you need to speak to Lewis.

PopShot on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Tricky Dicky:
> (In reply to MJ)
> >> With the Oxford connection, you might be better off getting Morse involved.
>
> Morse is dead, you need to speak to Lewis.

Lewis is a jackass.
Kemics - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

If you've ever been a victim of theft, it's a painful experience. If you see a thief go unpunished and free to continue stealing. What about their victims? I think most people's reaction comes from their compassion for other people having their stuff stolen?
Blizzard - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Kemics:

Yes I have, and I didnt react in the manner some of you are.

Is this said thief continuing to steal from all and sundry?
Simon4 - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

> What an strange post and some outrageous replies.

Very true. Surely a troll.

> You got your stuff back, whats the problem here?

Just possibly something to do with (if the story is as straightforwardly one-sided as presented here), a climbing wall has a staff member who is systematically stealing lost property and selling it on for profit, and (allegedly), the wall has failed to take a detailed complaint about this seriously? So that the person concerned will carry on doing so after a suitable interval?

> Some people on here seem to lack any compassion.

Yes, possibly those who are not gullible idiots who fall for the most tenuous sob-story.

MJ - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Tricky Dicky:

Morse is dead, you need to speak to Lewis.

Not as long dead as Poirot though...
Mungo Shuntobox - on 14 Jun 2013
Just an afterthought for the OP and the various readers;

another two reasons to report nicked gear

1 - if there's a load of gear going from the same place, and it's all been reported as stolen it might generate a better police response if there is a 'hotspot' rather than treating it as a one-off or writing it off as lost property.

2 - if your gear is nicked and the offender locked up, there is an outside chance of it being recovered and returned to you, or at least when the transactions on the eBay account are investigated, there is more proof that the goods being sold are mostly stolen - rather than the "this was my first time that I ever sold something I stole' story.
puppythedog on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to JayPee630: I'm a mental health professional, if you wish to know more e-mail directly. I have some degree of knowledge and understanding on this issue. from your posts I'm not sure that you do.
krikoman - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies: Go to the coppers defo. haven't read the hole thread but, how many other times has he got away with it??
Minneconjou Sioux - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

It appears (to me at least) that there is a significant amount of missing information which is why my original post urged some caution.

If the case is as black and white as it appears from subsequent posts then it does seem extremely odd that the employers and managers at the wall have not taken stronger action. It is this bit that makes me think there is something else going on.

I would ask them.
MJ - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Minneconjou Sioux:

I would ask them.

I think part of the problem is that he is in a Senior Position at the Wall and they've already shown their intention.
For this to be resolved and for everyone to be satisfied it needs to go higher. Whether it ends up as a Police matter is an entirely different matter.
puppythedog on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies: I think that we devolve responsibility to the police to deal with criminal matters such as these and that we shoud trust them to do so. If there are any mitigating circumstances the criminal justice system should recognise them and account for them if appropriate.
Minneconjou Sioux - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to MJ:
> (In reply to Minneconjou Sioux)
>
>
> I think part of the problem is that he is in a Senior Position at the Wall and they've already shown their intention.
> For this to be resolved and for everyone to be satisfied it needs to go higher. Whether it ends up as a Police matter is an entirely different matter.

But I would still give them the opportunity to explain. Then, at least, I would feel more confident in any subsequent actions I might take.
MJ - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Minneconjou Sioux:

If the person involved is a manager himself, it has to go up at least a level. There is no way that a department (Climbing Wall inside a Sports Centre inside a University) could investigate itself in circumstances like this.
Minneconjou Sioux - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to MJ:

I don't think I'm disputing it. When I say "ask them" I meant higher up the chain of command.
jacobjlloyd - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies: just email this thread to the people you talked to at the wall, and im sure they will sort it out thoroughly and quietly with no more hassle. Things being said here would clarify public opinion on the behaviour and the consequences of it continuing, without punishing somebody excessively or talking unfairly about them online without knowing the whole story.
Slarti B on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to jacobjlloyd:
> (In reply to blindskies) just email this thread to the people you talked to at the wall, and im sure they will sort it out thoroughly and quietly...

This is just wishful thinking. The OP has already contacted the wall and nothing meaningful seems to have happened. In most cover ups, people further up the management chain want problems to disappear and expecting them to sort it out "thoroughly" is naive. They ARE likely to do it quietly though!!

If these allegations are true there has been a significant breach of trust (and possibly a crime) in a facility open to the public where there are many opportunities for this person to continue. There is also the possibility management are covering it up because it is more widespread than this one person.

To the OP:
- Find out who owns/runs the wall. This should be shown publicy, eg on Insurance Certs, tickets etc. They should be repsonsible for their employees.

- If the sports centre is owned/run by a university write directly to their legal and HR departments explaining the situation regarding 1) their employee who allegedly took your gear and 2) the management who have not taken satisfactory action. If run by a company write similar to the most senior level (I suggest Company Secretary) of the company running the wall.

- Ask them to let you know what action will be taken against the employees and make sure they confirm the results. You could also ask them to compensate you for the actions of their employee!

- Contact the police so the alleged crime is at least recorded.

- If there is a forum for the universitysport centre (facebook group etc?) post on there asking whether other people have had items go missing.

- As a last resort try the local press.

Stop agonising, this is not just about you, this is about the other people who may have been taken advantage of in the past and to stop it happening again in the future.

I am fed up with cover ups cozy "investigations" that don't investigate; look at Catholic Church, Stafford Hospital, Rochdale Council, Savile, Plebgate, Cheetham School, MP's Expenses. Left to themselves organisations have a tendency to conceal to the detriment of members of the public.
Morgan P - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to JayPee630:
> (In reply to Rock Badger)
>
> "Robbing is robbing" all sounds very good, but it's not is it really? You just sound like a Daily Mail headline.
>
> There are different types of theft and reasons behind it. The courts and justice system recognize this

Exactly, so why not contact the police? It is the courts job to provide the appropriate punishment taking into account the circumstances. Let them do their job and let him do his - to report that a crime has taken place.

auld al on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:
Mega TROLL ?
well done
Timmd on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Slarti B:
> (In reply to jacobjlloyd)
> [...]
>
> this is not just about you, this is about the other people who may have been taken advantage of in the past and to stop it happening again in the future.
>
> Left to themselves organisations have a tendency to conceal to the detriment of members of the public.

Seconded.
JLS on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to auld al:

I think you on-board detector is playing up. If I were you I have it looked at before you read any more posts. :-)
ROBBIEB - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to every post.
A) this is theft if the op is right in his allegations.
B) the criminal justice system is in place for a reason.
C) employment law and disaplinary processes being used to rationalise a theft is not appropriate.
D) contact the police

Simple
coinneach - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to Trangia:
> (In reply to blindskies)
>
> Frankly I am amazed that the individual wasn't given instant dismissal,

That would be illegal
ShaunRudge - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to coinneach:

And why would it be illegal to dismiss someone for such a serious misconduct?
ShaunRudge - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to coinneach:

From my understanding theft is easily considered gross misconduct and merits instant dismissal.
cuppatea on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to ShaunRudge:

So called instant dismissal still has to follow steps. Including but not limited to.

Suspension
Hearing
Consideration
Decision
Etc.
PopShot on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to ShaunRudge:
> (In reply to coinneach)
>
> From my understanding theft is easily considered gross misconduct and merits instant dismissal.

I think under employment law it goes like this: oral warning, written warning, final written warning = dismissal.
Milesy - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to PopShot:

No you can be dismissed for gross misconduct without written warnings as long as fair investigation, and defence etc has taken place. If there is clear evidence and/or admittance then can can be enough to satisfy fair investigation. It would be up to a seperate employment tribunal to discover if unfair dismissal has taken place.
ShaunRudge - on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to PopShot:

That may be so for less serious issues but not theft. What about physical violence? You think you would get three warnings for that?
cuppatea on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to PopShot:

That sort of thing is "managing someone out" ;-)

Being repeatedly late might eventually lead to dismissal but being late once wouldn't get a person the sack.
cuppatea on 14 Jun 2013
In reply to MJ:
> (In reply to Tricky Dicky)
>
> Morse is dead, you need to speak to Lewis.
>
> Not as long dead as Poirot though...


Poirot has a MUCH better 'tache though, eh?
adstapleton - on 15 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

I'd demand the death of the thief and that of all relatives, 3 generations back.

If you think that's a bit harsh, you are wrong.
MJ - on 15 Jun 2013
In reply to cuppatea:

Poirot has a MUCH better 'tache though, eh?

He has indeed. Bon!
marsbar - on 15 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies: If you leave your stuff lying around instead of taking care of it you take the risk that you won't get it back. Regardless of the legal and moral issues, that is the reality. You got it back, learn to take responsibility for your stuff.
puppythedog on 15 Jun 2013
In reply to marsbar: the realit is also that someone engaged i theft and appears to be getting away with it.
Trangia - on 15 Jun 2013
In reply to marsbar:
> (In reply to blindskies) If you leave your stuff lying around instead of taking care of it you take the risk that you won't get it back. Regardless of the legal and moral issues, that is the reality. You got it back, learn to take responsibility for your stuff.

True but that in no way excuses the actions of the thief, who as I say should be given "instant" dismisal (within the framework of the Law)

I once witnessed an intant dismissal in a mine in South Africa. I was underground with the shift boss when we caught a mine worker smoking. The shift boss dismissed him on the spot. This was a perfectly legal thing for him to do because of the potential risk of an explosion. The man was sent to the surface and at the end of the shift the boss went straight to the Union office to explain the dismissal. The Union backed the dismissal 100% even though the consequences of such a dismissal on the individual concerned would be devastating in a country with no long term social security and high unemployment.
marsbar - on 15 Jun 2013
In reply to Trangia: I'm not excusing the actions of the thief. In my opinion this isn't as serious as potentially blowing people up though. We don't know what the employer has done, but my personal choice would be to keep them on with a written warning and make it totally clear that they are being watched and the slightest little thing will be dismissal. This gives them a chance to change their behaviour and not become a drain on society, whilst ensuring that if they do need to be dismissed in future, any appeal would see that they have already been given a chance, and be less likely to succeed.
ice.solo - on 15 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

Im impressed with how leniant many feel towards someone who steals shit for profit.
Purloining stuff laying about is one thing, this guys got a system.

Maybe no punching people, but get the f*cker fired at least so you dont have to see his head when you go to climb again.

Hes a loser. Make sure of it.
Enty - on 15 Jun 2013
In reply to ice.solo:
> (In reply to blindskies)
>
> Im impressed with how leniant many feel towards someone who steals shit for profit.
> Purloining stuff laying about is one thing, this guys got a system.
>
> Maybe no punching people, but get the f*cker fired at least so you dont have to see his head when you go to climb again.
>
> Hes a loser. Make sure of it.

Nail on head mate! Another bewildering UKC thread.

E
Fraser on 15 Jun 2013
In reply to Tricky Dicky:
> (In reply to blindskies)

> Morse is dead, you need to speak to Lewis.

Lewis is retired. You need to get in the time machine to go back and speak to Endeavour.



In reply to ice.solo:

> Im impressed with how leniant many feel towards someone who steals shit for profit.

Got to agree with that - well 'surprised' perhaps, more than impressed. If you don't have principles, you don't have anything.
Climbing Pieman on 15 Jun 2013
In reply to marsbar:
> (In reply to Trangia) I'm not excusing the actions of the thief. In my opinion this isn't as serious as potentially blowing people up though. We don't know what the employer has done, but my personal choice would be to keep them on with a written warning and make it totally clear that they are being watched and the slightest little thing will be dismissal. This gives them a chance to change their behaviour and not become a drain on society, whilst ensuring that if they do need to be dismissed in future, any appeal would see that they have already been given a chance, and be less likely to succeed.
Maybe not as serious, but what about breach of trust and associated effects of loss of that? Many employers can't afford to take the chance when trust has gone. I know two folk dismissed for less than a deliberate (confessed) action of taking and then attempting to sell - both cases similar to each other in that they did not follow laid down procedures for buying from their employer items for personal use; one a 99p jar of chutney, the other 45p worth of photocopying. The items had not even left either premises so doubt that theft was intended before the staff members were challenged. The two folk acknowledged they had still to pay but were dismissed for gross misconduct. 11 yrs and 7 yrs unblemished service respectively did not count for anything. Theft is theft to lots of employers.
paget - on 15 Jun 2013
In reply to marsbar:
> (In reply to blindskies) If you leave your stuff lying around instead of taking care of it you take the risk that you won't get it back. Regardless of the legal and moral issues, that is the reality. You got it back, learn to take responsibility for your stuff.


I love it!!
Do you ever park your car? Do you never leave your rucksack at the base of a multi pitch route? Leave your coat on a hook? Your pen on a desk? Etc etc.
Hope you don't leave your missus with your mate whilst you go to the bar! He's in there! But it's your fault you did leave her!
gman2012 on 15 Jun 2013
In reply to Climbing Pieman:

If a colleague was sacked for taking paper clips home, I'd think the boss is being unfair. On the other hand, if they admitted stealing from customers and were still in the job I probably wouldn't be comfortable working there (unless I was also stealing, in which case it would be great news!).
Minneconjou Sioux - on 15 Jun 2013
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to ice.solo)
> [...]
>
> Nail on head mate! Another bewildering UKC thread.
>
> E

The problem is that the information provided seems counter intuitive. It seems that there is either collusion which requires further investigation or there are extenuating circumstances.

OR this is a Troll
blindskies - on 15 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:
I don't want to mention which wall myself, as the member of staff in question was NOT one of the climbing team. I must stress that they are, as far as I'm aware, not a climber.
Morgan P - on 15 Jun 2013
In reply to paget:
> (In reply to marsbar)
> [...]
>
>
> I love it!!
> Do you ever park your car? Do you never leave your rucksack at the base of a multi pitch route? Leave your coat on a hook? Your pen on a desk? Etc etc.
> Hope you don't leave your missus with your mate whilst you go to the bar! He's in there! But it's your fault you did leave her!

+1

Lusk - on 15 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:
> (In reply to blindskies)
> I don't want to mention which wall myself, as the member of staff in question was NOT one of the climbing team. I must stress that they are, as far as I'm aware, not a climber.

That's good to hear!
The person in question is a thieving canoot, get him busted!!!
stroppygob - on 15 Jun 2013
In reply to JayPee630:
> (In reply to xplorer)
>
> Well, that's very sensible and not macho and stupid at all. You'd have committed a worse crime and could well find yourself in serious trouble for that.

Oh dear....
marsbar - on 16 Jun 2013
In reply to paget: When I park my car I don't leave it unlocked with the keys in it.

If I do leave my rucksac at the bottom of a route I don't leave my money phone and car keys in there. I also don't leave it there after I have left the area.

I am always astonished at how naive and innocently trusting so many climbers are. Maybe its the middle class upbringing.

For the record I have a Mr (I'm the Mrs), and yes I would be happy to leave him in a bar with a mate, because I know I can trust him. I don't trust random strangers not to take my stuff and then moan about it if they do.

To be clear, I am not saying the OP is to blame, or that it isn't the thief's fault. I am saying that if you leave stuff lying around the reality is that someone will pinch it. It isn't right, but it is a reality check that a lot of people seem to need.
bpmclimb - on 16 Jun 2013
In reply to marsbar:

Never left a phone on view in your car by mistake? Never left a wallet/purse/keys/phone/bank card in a shop after making a purchase?

It didn't sound like the OP made a habit of leaving his Grigri at the wall, sounded more of a one-off mistake to me, of the sort that we all make from time to time - with the possible exception of yourself, of course :)
IainRUK - on 16 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies: Not sure it's theft.. it was lost, should have been in lost property, after say 1-2 weeks I think selling stuff is fine but money should go towards a charity or something..

Highly unprofessional, lucky not to be sacked, but depends if the wall had an agreed policy for lost and found.. though I think to say he stole it is a tad harsh.
IainRUK - on 16 Jun 2013
In reply to bpmclimb:
> (In reply to marsbar)
>
> Never left a phone on view in your car by mistake? Never left a wallet/purse/keys/phone/bank card in a shop after making a purchase?
>
> It didn't sound like the OP made a habit of leaving his Grigri at the wall, sounded more of a one-off mistake to me, of the sort that we all make from time to time - with the possible exception of yourself, of course :)

I left my bike locked up last night drove back to my house.. couldn't find my house key.. drove back to the bike and my keys were all attached to the bike lock, I'd left the key in it.. and the rest...

I was lucky to get away with that one..
marsbar - on 16 Jun 2013
In reply to bpmclimb: I make mistakes like that sometimes, but I don't come on here and whine about it.
Henrycuillin on 16 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies: I would get the police in and have the guy fined and he would lose his job!
off-duty - on 16 Jun 2013
In reply to marsbar:
> (In reply to paget)
>
> To be clear, I am not saying the OP is to blame, or that it isn't the thief's fault. I am saying that if you leave stuff lying around the reality is that someone will pinch it. It isn't right, but it is a reality check that a lot of people seem to need.

I totally agree.

It's just like when women go out by themselves, late at night and get drunk in public places, wearing provocative clothes - the reality is some of them will get raped.

I am not saying they are to blame, or that it isn't the rapists fault. It isn't right but it is a reality check that a lot of women seem to need.

Regardless of the legal and moral issues, that is the reality. You aren't dead, learn to take responsibility for yourself.

I am always astonished at how naive and innocently trusting so many women are. Maybe it's their middle class upbringing.

Still at least they don't come on here and whine about it....
bpmclimb - on 16 Jun 2013
In reply to marsbar:
> (In reply to bpmclimb) I make mistakes like that sometimes, but I don't come on here and whine about it.

Ok fair enough.

What would you do, though, if you left a bank card in a shop (as you say, not completely impossible that you could make this sort of mistake once in a while) and within a few hours a shop employee had used your card to buy themselves a few expensive presents? Would you just blame yourself for your stupidity and leave it at that, on the grounds that calling the police would be just whining?
xplorer on 16 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

This is a strange thread indeed.

UKC has just hit its prime I think!
ads.ukclimbing.com
JLS on 16 Jun 2013
In reply to Henrycuillin:
>"I would get the police in and have the guy fined and he would lose his job!"

I can't help but feel that from the moment the OP pressed "Submit message" a chain of events has been set in motion that will ultimately end with a sacking and court appearance.

It's not that I have much simpathy for the perp as he/she is the architect of their own downfall but I'm not sure I'd like to carry the weight of having a part in fcuking someone's life that badly for £60. This is not a criticism of the OP just an observation. If it was my own Grigri that had gone AWOL I might be thinking cut the fecker's hand off...

Postmanpat on 16 Jun 2013
In reply to marsbar:
> (In reply to paget)
>
>
> To be clear, I am not saying the OP is to blame, or that it isn't the thief's fault. I am saying that if you leave stuff lying around the reality is that someone will pinch it. It isn't right, but it is a reality check that a lot of people seem to need.
>
If you're not saying the OP is to blame yours is a pretty pointless post.

The concept that the OP was careless to let his stuff be taken and that the thief is a thief and should be punished accordingly are not mutually exclusive.
adam 24 - on 16 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies: Sorry, I can't hack through all the posts on this thread, but does the OP mention which wall this happened at? I had my own grigri stolen from Mile End last year. I was furious and the staff were less than helpful, one seemed to have attitude that it happens all the time, but the manager then insisted it was unusual

... anyway, I ask because I want to know if this is an ongoing problem at this wall. Other climbers should know so it doesn't happen to them.

Adam
marsbar - on 16 Jun 2013
In reply to off-duty: I was waiting for that one. So you don't agree with the many campaigns like this then...

http://www.daventryexpress.co.uk/news/campaign-to-make-life-harder-for-thieves-1-4937424

Postmanpat on 16 Jun 2013
In reply to adam 24:
> (In reply to blindskies) Sorry, I can't hack through all the posts on this thread, but does the OP mention which wall this happened at?
>
No but it was a "uni sports centre" so no Mile End.

marsbar - on 16 Jun 2013
In reply to Postmanpat: I'm glad someone gets it. If the OP and others stop leaving stuff lying about then its not pointless. If it is then, hey its UKC.
marsbar - on 16 Jun 2013
In reply to bpmclimb: I would cancel the card. The card company would pay for the presents, and we all pay more in the end. I had my bag taken whilst shopping, many years ago, they got a tank of petrol on my card within 10 minutes, having spoken to the card company I spoke to the police (as there was one right in front of me in the shopping centre) who didn't give a flying "£*% despite the fact that there was clear evidence of the card being used and CCTV footage at the petrol station, they refused to treat it as a crime and gave me a lost property number. And yes, I should have been more aware of who was around me.

BTW I didn't say calling the police was whining, I said posting about it on the internet was.
rocky57 - on 16 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies:

Just got back from being away, and saw this. Not read it all, so my comment is based on what you say happend. Personaly, I think the guy got off lightly, but that might be because he managed to do what was expected of him by his employer. (Not to mention that if he is slimey enough to sell something on ebay he knew belonged to someone else then he's more than likely to be slimey enough to pull the wool over his bosses eyes.)Nevertheless, he is still a scumbag and deserves to be taught a lesson. If it was me I would probably creep up quietly behind him and tazer him, then just leave as quietly. I'm not normally an agressive person, but I think he deserves something like that for not handing it in.
wintertree - on 16 Jun 2013
In reply to JLS:

> I can't help but feel that from the moment the OP pressed "Submit message" a chain of events has been set in motion that will ultimately end with a sacking and court appearance.

I am no expert in causality, but surely it was the decision of the alleged perp to press "submit" on the eBay auction for the goods they stole that set of a chain of events leading to court?

If the OP doesn't help them into court one off their other victims will.

I wouldn't be much more concerned about the failings of management than a bent staff member. Complicit , complacent or incompetent?


bpmclimb - on 16 Jun 2013
In reply to marsbar:

>
> BTW I didn't say calling the police was whining, I said posting about it on the internet was.


Well FWIW it didn't seem like whining to me, just a climbing-related tale that led to a pretty good debate. But if you're inclined to see a victim of petty theft posting about it as a whiner, why stop there? What about all the thousands of posts dealing with many other unfortunate situations. Gripes about top-ropers, crag etiquette debates, gripes about dogs/litter/faeces at crags, climbers seeking advice about overuse syndromes and other minor injuries, advice about breaking out of a grade plateau, etc, etc. All whining to some extent, if you're predisposed to see it that way.
colina - on 16 Jun 2013
In reply to blindskies: I wd have thought the climbing centre wd have a lost property dept .if equipment hadn't been claimed by a certain period why not put it on ebay or resell it at the wall shop and direct profits back into the wall.
too blatantly put it on ebay after a few hours doesn't seem right to me wotever the circumstances
ice.solo - on 16 Jun 2013
In reply to marsbar:

completely correct. likewise its a reality check for petty thieves and racketeers that getting caught has consequences.

Tricky Dicky - on 17 Jun 2013
In reply to Fraser:
>
> Lewis is retired. You need to get in the time machine to go back and speak to Endeavour.

Get young Hathaway on the case then!!

kms on 17 Jun 2013
In reply to paget:

Wayne: Do you smell bacon, Garth?

Garth: I definitely smell a pork product of some kind.
Morgan P - on 18 Jun 2013
In reply to off-duty:
> (In reply to marsbar)

> (In reply to paget)
>
> To be clear, I am not saying the OP is to blame, or that it isn't the thief's fault. I am saying that if you leave stuff lying around the reality is that someone will pinch it. It isn't right, but it is a reality check that a lot of people seem to need.

>
> I totally agree.
>
> It's just like when women go out by themselves, late at night and get drunk in public places, wearing provocative clothes - the reality is some of them will get raped.
>
> I am not saying they are to blame, or that it isn't the rapists fault. It isn't right but it is a reality check that a lot of women seem to need.
>
> Regardless of the legal and moral issues, that is the reality. You aren't dead, learn to take responsibility for yourself.
>
> I am always astonished at how naive and innocently trusting so many women are. Maybe it's their middle class upbringing.
>
> Still at least they don't come on here and whine about it....


Game, set and match!

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