This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Right, I know it's sort of be covered but I need cold hard Beta on Flying Buttress Direct at Stanage.
I'm hopefully gonna be making one of my all to infrequent visits to mecca (Stanage) next weekend and really really wanna go at this.
Now I think that I know how the moves go, but the only thing that freaks me slightly is that first gear in the lip (and next gear higher up).
The gear in that first break is I believe one or two smallish cams, and I think that the placement is a bit worn.
How good is that first placement, is it bomber, and what about gear in the second break or the horizontal break at the top.
Give me it all, every last detail, just wanna make sure that if I do it I'm gonna be as safe as I can.
Thanks
I'm hopefully gonna be making one of my all to infrequent visits to mecca (Stanage) next weekend and really really wanna go at this.
Now I think that I know how the moves go, but the only thing that freaks me slightly is that first gear in the lip (and next gear higher up).
The gear in that first break is I believe one or two smallish cams, and I think that the placement is a bit worn.
How good is that first placement, is it bomber, and what about gear in the second break or the horizontal break at the top.
Give me it all, every last detail, just wanna make sure that if I do it I'm gonna be as safe as I can.
Thanks
In reply to Ciderslider:
there's probably better climbs to do as your first E1 lead, are you particularly good at overhangs? Have you lead much grit HVS on sight yet?
Why not save it until you can do it onsight (without beta).
BTW have you considered doing the Sloth?
there's probably better climbs to do as your first E1 lead, are you particularly good at overhangs? Have you lead much grit HVS on sight yet?
Why not save it until you can do it onsight (without beta).
BTW have you considered doing the Sloth?
In reply to Ciderslider: The gear is totally bomber, just place it well and look at the placement. Placing cams very quickly might be an advantage too though! As long as that first cam in the lip goes in you wont hurt yourself, im not telling you what size though! Classic case of committing to moves without faffing!
In reply to CurlyStevo: There probably are mate, but I've just got a real thing about this one. Yeh, I'm pretty strong for an old boy. As for HVS onsight list on grit, just the one (Goliath's Groove on my first trad day out about a month ago).
Unfortunately if I'm totally honest I can never claim the onsight as I've watched alot of vids of it being done and looked at loads of pictures :-
(
Yes I've considered the sloth as well
Unfortunately if I'm totally honest I can never claim the onsight as I've watched alot of vids of it being done and looked at loads of pictures :-
(
Yes I've considered the sloth as well
In reply to CurlyStevo:
>Why not save it until you can do it onsight (without beta).
Because that time may never come? Because it really isn’t that much fun hanging off that break halfway across the roof trying to fit the wrong size of cam in? Hell, just because he doesn’t want to, perhaps.
Maybe just answer the man’s question? I would myself but it’s been so long I can’t remember – 1.5 friend comes to mind but I could easily be wrong.
Mind you my recollection is obviously useless since I don’t remember all this first break/second break stuff – my recollection is a single break which you can reach strenuously from the back while placing the cam in a blindish kind of way, then you commit and only at this point get to see whether you’ve actually placed the thing reasonably or not. I don’t recall anything else before you get round the roof and stand up, and you’ve done it then anyway.
Vaguely off-topic historical diversion – in Alpha Males Al Parker says that he first met Joe Brown when JB was abseiling down FBD in 1958 to remove a peg which had been placed. I remember that in the old Stanage guide the historical used to say that Paul Gray ‘boldly went for it on FBD but employed a peg runner’. Presumably therefore there was a time when people were contending for the first ascent and some people were placing pegs, which JB didn’t approve of. Anyone know more about this? Was the peg ever regularly present/accepted?
jcm
>Why not save it until you can do it onsight (without beta).
Because that time may never come? Because it really isn’t that much fun hanging off that break halfway across the roof trying to fit the wrong size of cam in? Hell, just because he doesn’t want to, perhaps.
Maybe just answer the man’s question? I would myself but it’s been so long I can’t remember – 1.5 friend comes to mind but I could easily be wrong.
Mind you my recollection is obviously useless since I don’t remember all this first break/second break stuff – my recollection is a single break which you can reach strenuously from the back while placing the cam in a blindish kind of way, then you commit and only at this point get to see whether you’ve actually placed the thing reasonably or not. I don’t recall anything else before you get round the roof and stand up, and you’ve done it then anyway.
Vaguely off-topic historical diversion – in Alpha Males Al Parker says that he first met Joe Brown when JB was abseiling down FBD in 1958 to remove a peg which had been placed. I remember that in the old Stanage guide the historical used to say that Paul Gray ‘boldly went for it on FBD but employed a peg runner’. Presumably therefore there was a time when people were contending for the first ascent and some people were placing pegs, which JB didn’t approve of. Anyone know more about this? Was the peg ever regularly present/accepted?
jcm
In reply to vertigo714:
Oh, go on, you know you want too
> (In reply to Ciderslider) The gear is totally bomber As long as that first cam in the lip goes in you wont hurt yourself, im not telling you what size though!
Oh, go on, you know you want too
In reply to Ciderslider: Placed two good looking cams in the break. Pumpy to place properly but worth doing right, having a good look at them to make sure they're solid. That'll give you the confidence to 'go for it' with all the heel-hooking crux moves. I didn't test them but I belayed a friend who did and he managed the hang of shame without them popping. You can always down-climb and rest at the top of the slab again (if your guns can reverse the stretch). The best beta I can suggest is 'don't forget to shuffle left a bit' as you pull through. Fairly obvious moves really, just keep your feet on.
Good luck and enjoy it.
Good luck and enjoy it.
In reply to Ciderslider: once you've done the first move over the lip, it's pretty tricky to reverse the moves. I went out onto the overhang, expecting to be able to place the cam then come down for a rest, but this wasn't the case. For about 30 seconds I was in a perpetual state of almost falling off, managed to do it though
In reply to Ciderslider:
The sloth is awesome and most people seem to actually do it.
I've definitely seen a lot more people hanging from the ropes under FBD then actually climb it. The most impressive ascent was some guy soloing it in trainers (with two female friends of his onlooking and looking suitably impressed!)
The sloth is awesome and most people seem to actually do it.
I've definitely seen a lot more people hanging from the ropes under FBD then actually climb it. The most impressive ascent was some guy soloing it in trainers (with two female friends of his onlooking and looking suitably impressed!)
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
"Because that time may never come? Because it really isn’t that much fun hanging off that break halfway across the roof trying to fit the wrong size of cam in? Hell, just because he doesn’t want to, perhaps."
Well the OP is actually still improving quite rapidly in his leading so it's not unreasonable to assume that he would be able to lead it onsight some time in the next few years. I doubt all the beta in the world is going to make that much difference - IMO most people attempting this route don't get up it cleanly, perhaps because it was incorrectly graded HVS?
"Because that time may never come? Because it really isn’t that much fun hanging off that break halfway across the roof trying to fit the wrong size of cam in? Hell, just because he doesn’t want to, perhaps."
Well the OP is actually still improving quite rapidly in his leading so it's not unreasonable to assume that he would be able to lead it onsight some time in the next few years. I doubt all the beta in the world is going to make that much difference - IMO most people attempting this route don't get up it cleanly, perhaps because it was incorrectly graded HVS?
In reply to Ciderslider: before heading out for the lip make sure your gear is perfect ( and double it up) as I've seen two people swim onto the lip and their gear fall out, and a mate saw it happen last weekend. Also make sure it's well extended, don't get nervous an just clip it to a QuickDraw you'll regret it later.
If you have confidence, you'll cruise it. Gettin nervous is most people's reason for failing.
Also on the move out to the lip I use my right hand at the top of the horn and reach over with my left, I just find it a more static move.
Enjoy it, it's a fantastic route.
If you have confidence, you'll cruise it. Gettin nervous is most people's reason for failing.
Also on the move out to the lip I use my right hand at the top of the horn and reach over with my left, I just find it a more static move.
Enjoy it, it's a fantastic route.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Have you actually done this route? The guy wants to know what size cam goes in a Friend placement which is blind, committing (ish) and strenuous and, as you point out, frequently fallen on. I'd say this particular piece of beta was very useful indeed.
It's *gritstone* HVS. If people don't know what that means then they probably will fail, yes.
jcm
> I doubt all the beta in the world is going to make that much difference
Have you actually done this route? The guy wants to know what size cam goes in a Friend placement which is blind, committing (ish) and strenuous and, as you point out, frequently fallen on. I'd say this particular piece of beta was very useful indeed.
> perhaps because it was incorrectly graded HVS?
It's *gritstone* HVS. If people don't know what that means then they probably will fail, yes.
jcm
In reply to CurlyStevo:
No idea. Gritstone HVS gives a good picture, though. Harder than Cinturato, in other words.
jcm
No idea. Gritstone HVS gives a good picture, though. Harder than Cinturato, in other words.
jcm
In reply to climb the peak:
That's what scares the sh@t out of me ! I don't mind a challenge, and I don't mind a fall onto good gear (if I absolutely can't do something) but it's just the thought of not being able to get that first gear in :-0
> (In reply to Ciderslider) once you've done the first move over the lip, it's pretty tricky to reverse the moves. I went out onto the overhang, expecting to be able to place the cam then come down for a rest, but this wasn't the case. For about 30 seconds I was in a perpetual state of almost falling off, managed to do it though
That's what scares the sh@t out of me ! I don't mind a challenge, and I don't mind a fall onto good gear (if I absolutely can't do something) but it's just the thought of not being able to get that first gear in :-0
In reply to deacondeacon: Thanks
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
"I'd say this particular piece of beta was very useful indeed."
This particular route seems to see more failures than successes, which does say something about the chances of success for the OP if he's not solid at grit HVS and already worried enough about his chances of success to need all the beta he can get.
The chances of failure are quite high and also the rewards of a win greatly diminished (by the need of beta and the likelhood of failure / resting). Also its not really good form to set out leading routes where failure is very likely, the gritstone edges are getting more and more trashed from people testing gear placements.
"It's *gritstone* HVS. If people don't know what that means then they probably will fail, yes."
Is it HVS? I thought it got upgraded in the latest definitive guide to E1 no?
"I'd say this particular piece of beta was very useful indeed."
This particular route seems to see more failures than successes, which does say something about the chances of success for the OP if he's not solid at grit HVS and already worried enough about his chances of success to need all the beta he can get.
The chances of failure are quite high and also the rewards of a win greatly diminished (by the need of beta and the likelhood of failure / resting). Also its not really good form to set out leading routes where failure is very likely, the gritstone edges are getting more and more trashed from people testing gear placements.
"It's *gritstone* HVS. If people don't know what that means then they probably will fail, yes."
Is it HVS? I thought it got upgraded in the latest definitive guide to E1 no?
In reply to JJL: Thank you, just the info I need
In reply to Ciderslider:
Checking through the logbook/pictures is interesting in this regard!
Here's an interesting one.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=182064
Perhaps that's how it's done. Definitely not what I did - I struggled on to the shelf above the horn to the R and spent a scary period trying to stand up, which seemed like some hours but was probably only a minute or two. Maybe it is better to carry on straight up - certainly more for the hands, but a bit braver. Still, you didn't ask for that beta!
jcm
Checking through the logbook/pictures is interesting in this regard!
Here's an interesting one.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=182064
Perhaps that's how it's done. Definitely not what I did - I struggled on to the shelf above the horn to the R and spent a scary period trying to stand up, which seemed like some hours but was probably only a minute or two. Maybe it is better to carry on straight up - certainly more for the hands, but a bit braver. Still, you didn't ask for that beta!
jcm
In reply to Ciderslider: Its a great route, have fun! Be careful though, I think it has a rep for people having epics on it because the old HVS grade is misleading IMO. I think it deserves E1 and still isn't a push over at that grade because the roof is so intimidating.
Anyway - your questions, beta. I can only remember a few useful things. Warm up properly, its very easy to get flash pump hanging around in that break. The cam I used in the break was size 1 WC friend - bomber IMO. The move standing up in the break I found really hard, walk up the gully / ramp to the side and you get a good view of what you're dealing with, being clear what you will do here is crucial. I didn't get that much more gear in the rest of the route, but it gets much easier.
Anyway - your questions, beta. I can only remember a few useful things. Warm up properly, its very easy to get flash pump hanging around in that break. The cam I used in the break was size 1 WC friend - bomber IMO. The move standing up in the break I found really hard, walk up the gully / ramp to the side and you get a good view of what you're dealing with, being clear what you will do here is crucial. I didn't get that much more gear in the rest of the route, but it gets much easier.
In reply to Ciderslider:
As for HVS onsight list on grit, just the one (Goliath's Groove on my first trad day out about a month ago).
FBD is an interesting choice for your second grit HVS onsight! - shame I don't live in the UK anymore - might be fun to pull up a chair and watch
Unfortunately you can have all the beta in the world on this one, and it can still slap you when you least expect.
I'd soloed it loads of times before, then one afternoon while soloing it for the umpteenth time, I fell off while moving round the lip - broken ankle was the only injury thankfully (apart from feeling like a real tosser in front of a party of 4 sat at the bottom)!
It isn't hard, and the holds are huge, but it can be awkward.
As for HVS onsight list on grit, just the one (Goliath's Groove on my first trad day out about a month ago).
FBD is an interesting choice for your second grit HVS onsight! - shame I don't live in the UK anymore - might be fun to pull up a chair and watch
Unfortunately you can have all the beta in the world on this one, and it can still slap you when you least expect.
I'd soloed it loads of times before, then one afternoon while soloing it for the umpteenth time, I fell off while moving round the lip - broken ankle was the only injury thankfully (apart from feeling like a real tosser in front of a party of 4 sat at the bottom)!
It isn't hard, and the holds are huge, but it can be awkward.
In reply to Ciderslider: I'd get your gear sorted at the back with suitable sling extensions to minimise rope drag, as once you get to the lip who knows what happens! I fell off the lip with only gear at the back and hit the slab, but only cause I bottled it.
Did it straight away again with ease, stood up on the lip then placed more gear.
Did it straight away again with ease, stood up on the lip then placed more gear.
In reply to Ciderslider:
Re the gear, most people faff about placing it hanging around on the first break over the lip heaving themselves up on bent arms to look where they're shoving the gear (i.e. with their hands in the same break as the gear placement). Commit to one more move above this before placing the gear and you can hang straight-armed on a jug and enjoy a lot more pump-free time lacing the break with cams (from 1.5, 2 and 2.5 should fit from what I recall).
Re the gear, most people faff about placing it hanging around on the first break over the lip heaving themselves up on bent arms to look where they're shoving the gear (i.e. with their hands in the same break as the gear placement). Commit to one more move above this before placing the gear and you can hang straight-armed on a jug and enjoy a lot more pump-free time lacing the break with cams (from 1.5, 2 and 2.5 should fit from what I recall).
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I belayed Sean Myles on it on a Uni Fresher's meet that was iirc his first time on proper rock (i.e. not southern sandstone). He cruised it.
JCM was probably there too.
>
> IMO most people attempting this route don't get up it cleanly
> IMO most people attempting this route don't get up it cleanly
I belayed Sean Myles on it on a Uni Fresher's meet that was iirc his first time on proper rock (i.e. not southern sandstone). He cruised it.
JCM was probably there too.
In reply to Goucho:
Yeah, that's always the worst bit, isn't it (assuming you don't actually have bones sticking out of your leg)? I fell off The Snivelling once, and while I was sitting in a heap thinking about things the leader who was laboriously making his way up Great Slab insisted on lowering off and offering me some tea from his thermos. Rather sweet, really (the tea also, but mainly the gesture). Still, I'd have preferred to slink quietly off and pretend no-one had noticed.
jcm
> (apart from feeling like a real tosser in front of a party of 4 sat at the bottom)!
Yeah, that's always the worst bit, isn't it (assuming you don't actually have bones sticking out of your leg)? I fell off The Snivelling once, and while I was sitting in a heap thinking about things the leader who was laboriously making his way up Great Slab insisted on lowering off and offering me some tea from his thermos. Rather sweet, really (the tea also, but mainly the gesture). Still, I'd have preferred to slink quietly off and pretend no-one had noticed.
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Thanks John - I watched a really good clip of a guy called Steve cruising the crux on vimeo so I think as far as the actual moves go I'm about as prepared as I'm ever going to be - it's just that gear.
In reply to AlanLittle:
THAT Alan Little! How are you?
>JCM was probably there too.
Well, yes, I guess I was. My first day climbing of any kind. My main recollection of FBD that day is Mike Dawes telling me he'd done something called FBD and pointing up to it. I just assumed he was winding me up, since it was quite clear to me that no-one could possibly get up where he was saying he’d been. I looked in the guidebook and evidently there was some route called Flying Buttress Direct, but I still didn’t believe it went where he said; obviously he was just taking the piss out the newbie. It was only some months later when I saw by chance a photo of someone on it that I realised it actually must be possible to get up that sort of thing.
Are you sure Sean led it that day and not later? I’ve always counted it a mild claim to fame that he and I did our first VS the same day – he did Mandarin in Dovedale and I did Dr Livingstone. That would have been about November.
jcm
THAT Alan Little! How are you?
>JCM was probably there too.
Well, yes, I guess I was. My first day climbing of any kind. My main recollection of FBD that day is Mike Dawes telling me he'd done something called FBD and pointing up to it. I just assumed he was winding me up, since it was quite clear to me that no-one could possibly get up where he was saying he’d been. I looked in the guidebook and evidently there was some route called Flying Buttress Direct, but I still didn’t believe it went where he said; obviously he was just taking the piss out the newbie. It was only some months later when I saw by chance a photo of someone on it that I realised it actually must be possible to get up that sort of thing.
Are you sure Sean led it that day and not later? I’ve always counted it a mild claim to fame that he and I did our first VS the same day – he did Mandarin in Dovedale and I did Dr Livingstone. That would have been about November.
jcm
In reply to Ciderslider: My only advice on this classic E0 is to not clip the two cams in the break on seperate ropes and then fall into the resulting cats cradle in shorts resulting in rope burns on each leg and the side of the face.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Yes, I would agree that it does seem to be a route that alot of people fail on (as I would hazard it's a real head job rather than it's pure difficulty). There are alot of other routes that most people fail on but sometimes you've just got to step up and be counted - I tend to find that when I do that I get a result - the biggest problem for me is my head and getting too psyched. But that said If I get to the bottom of it and I'm not having a brave day then I'll keep walking.
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
> This particular route seems to see more failures than successes, which does say something about the chances of success for the OP if he's not solid at grit HVS and already worried enough about his chances of success to need all the beta he can get.
>
> The chances of failure are quite high and also the rewards of a win greatly diminished (by the need of beta and the likelhood of failure / resting). Also its not really good form to set out leading routes where failure is very likely, the gritstone edges are getting more and more trashed from people testing gear placements.
>
> "It's *gritstone* HVS. If people don't know what that means then they probably will fail, yes."
>
> Is it HVS? I thought it got upgraded in the latest definitive guide to E1 no?
>
> The chances of failure are quite high and also the rewards of a win greatly diminished (by the need of beta and the likelhood of failure / resting). Also its not really good form to set out leading routes where failure is very likely, the gritstone edges are getting more and more trashed from people testing gear placements.
>
> "It's *gritstone* HVS. If people don't know what that means then they probably will fail, yes."
>
> Is it HVS? I thought it got upgraded in the latest definitive guide to E1 no?
Yes, I would agree that it does seem to be a route that alot of people fail on (as I would hazard it's a real head job rather than it's pure difficulty). There are alot of other routes that most people fail on but sometimes you've just got to step up and be counted - I tend to find that when I do that I get a result - the biggest problem for me is my head and getting too psyched. But that said If I get to the bottom of it and I'm not having a brave day then I'll keep walking.
In reply to Removed User: Thanks, I might be reasonably tough, but grit in shorts !!!!! That's for double 'ard bast@rds
In reply to Removed User:
Yeah, shorts would be very poor beta. You'll be needing those knees, calves, etc.
In reply to Ciderslider:
Actually, I think people fail on it because you need more than just a gung-ho attitude. As people have said, it can be quite awkward as well if you don't hit on the right method. Only one way to find out....
jcm
Yeah, shorts would be very poor beta. You'll be needing those knees, calves, etc.
In reply to Ciderslider:
Actually, I think people fail on it because you need more than just a gung-ho attitude. As people have said, it can be quite awkward as well if you don't hit on the right method. Only one way to find out....
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I'd double check it's not shut off for the ringouzels that are nesting in Green crack a bit further along.
I'd double check it's not shut off for the ringouzels that are nesting in Green crack a bit further along.
In reply to trish1968:
it didn't have signs around it and it had climbers on it just under two weeks ago.
it didn't have signs around it and it had climbers on it just under two weeks ago.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I was there last night and signs were up but I don't know if they went as far as FB. Be best to check so your not dissapointed if it is.
I was there last night and signs were up but I don't know if they went as far as FB. Be best to check so your not dissapointed if it is.
In reply to trish1968:
the signs in the green crack area do not extend to flying butress.
the signs in the green crack area do not extend to flying butress.
In reply to Ciderslider: Its a size 1 camalot (or equivalent in other makes). Good luck!!
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Er, no, it was rather a long time ago. He may have seconded Mike up it. (He certainly didn't second *me* up it)
> Are you sure Sean led it that day and not later?
Er, no, it was rather a long time ago. He may have seconded Mike up it. (He certainly didn't second *me* up it)
In reply to Ciderslider:
Very sensible, given it's a mind game (they say!). On my list too, if I ever feel brave enough!
Please let us know how you get on & good luck.
Very sensible, given it's a mind game (they say!). On my list too, if I ever feel brave enough!
Please let us know how you get on & good luck.
In reply to Ciderslider:
I think this might be everything you are after (sloth and wombat on there too i think if you fancy more upside down roofyness).
http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Beta_Cheater_Guide_to_Flying_Buttress_Di...
I think this might be everything you are after (sloth and wombat on there too i think if you fancy more upside down roofyness).
http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Beta_Cheater_Guide_to_Flying_Buttress_Di...
In reply to Ciderslider:
Give it a go if you're psyched for it!
I seem to remember expecting it to be easy then completely muffing every other move. The gear is somewhere between finger and hand sized cams from memory, nothing unusual and you can see/feel the placements ok. I don't remember being concerned about it ripping should my flailing fail. The breaks are surprisingly slick in places, it sees a lot of traffic.
Give it a go if you're psyched for it!
I seem to remember expecting it to be easy then completely muffing every other move. The gear is somewhere between finger and hand sized cams from memory, nothing unusual and you can see/feel the placements ok. I don't remember being concerned about it ripping should my flailing fail. The breaks are surprisingly slick in places, it sees a lot of traffic.
In reply to Ciderslider:
To be sure, the gear at the lip isn't the first gear (in fact for many it's the LAST gear). The gear at the back of the cave is v important, a cam works better than a nut as it usually gets pulled sideways.
One thing most people miss is the lie down rest at the lip.
I hear real men do it naked.
> (In reply to climb the peak)
> [...]
>
> That's what scares the sh@t out of me ! I don't mind a challenge, and I don't mind a fall onto good gear (if I absolutely can't do something) but it's just the thought of not being able to get that first gear in :-0
> [...]
>
> That's what scares the sh@t out of me ! I don't mind a challenge, and I don't mind a fall onto good gear (if I absolutely can't do something) but it's just the thought of not being able to get that first gear in :-0
To be sure, the gear at the lip isn't the first gear (in fact for many it's the LAST gear). The gear at the back of the cave is v important, a cam works better than a nut as it usually gets pulled sideways.
One thing most people miss is the lie down rest at the lip.
I hear real men do it naked.
In reply to Ciderslider: it was swarming with German top-ropers on Tuesday.
In reply to Ciderslider:
You can hang straight armed from the first break on the lip and just pull up as you actually place the gear to see that it's placed well while still keeping your feet on.
I pretty much did that, putting in two cams in that first break where my hands were and not faffing too much. It's not that hard, just don't faff, get the gear in quick.
Here's a poor quality vid of me doing that quite a few years ago now - vimeo.com/68776498
You can hang straight armed from the first break on the lip and just pull up as you actually place the gear to see that it's placed well while still keeping your feet on.
I pretty much did that, putting in two cams in that first break where my hands were and not faffing too much. It's not that hard, just don't faff, get the gear in quick.
Here's a poor quality vid of me doing that quite a few years ago now - vimeo.com/68776498
In reply to MeMeMe: Nicely done sir!
In reply to Ciderslider: is this the same? Probably shows how a rockstar climbs it.
youtube.com/watch?v=P0Ymgur99B4&
youtube.com/watch?v=P0Ymgur99B4&
In reply to Ciderslider: Oh no, the cams are a doddle to place, I just thought I'd be able to come back down for a rest after placing them
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Tis me in this pic. It's not really my style of climbing - I cocked it up despite never failing E1's at the time. I can tell you categorically the cams on the lip in the picture are a Camalot 0.75 (green) and a DMM 3cu (green). I lacked the muscle to pull over immediately and needed to shimmy left - it is essential to drop your weight low on straight arms and heelhooks (if you try wrapping your knee over the break it is 10 x harder). I was so disgusted with myself that after dogging to the top I lowered off, stripped it and did a flawless repeat lead. It is easy when you know how but easy to mess up when you don't.
> (In reply to Ciderslider)
>
> Checking through the logbook/pictures is interesting in this regard!
>
> Here's an interesting one.
>
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=182064
>
> Perhaps that's how it's done.
>
> Checking through the logbook/pictures is interesting in this regard!
>
> Here's an interesting one.
>
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=182064
>
> Perhaps that's how it's done.
Tis me in this pic. It's not really my style of climbing - I cocked it up despite never failing E1's at the time. I can tell you categorically the cams on the lip in the picture are a Camalot 0.75 (green) and a DMM 3cu (green). I lacked the muscle to pull over immediately and needed to shimmy left - it is essential to drop your weight low on straight arms and heelhooks (if you try wrapping your knee over the break it is 10 x harder). I was so disgusted with myself that after dogging to the top I lowered off, stripped it and did a flawless repeat lead. It is easy when you know how but easy to mess up when you don't.
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:
in approach shoes - didn't see him place many cams
> (In reply to Ciderslider) is this the same? Probably shows how a rockstar climbs it.
>
> youtube.com/watch?v=P0Ymgur99B4&
>
> youtube.com/watch?v=P0Ymgur99B4&
in approach shoes - didn't see him place many cams
In reply to Ciderslider:
This was my first E1 lead (I'm claiming it!), earlier this year. You're going to enjoy it!
It went pretty easily, but, I spent very little time naffing with the cam placement - popped it in and went for it, without getting pumped at all. Watched a guy bail on it straight after me, the difference being he faffed for ages with 'that cam'.
As another said, there is good gear you must place and extend with a sling before you attack the overhang.
I could be giving a curve ball here, and it depends on your head, but focus on the climbing rather than the protection and it will go much easier. It's basically a very easy boulder problem in an intimidating position.
This was my first E1 lead (I'm claiming it!), earlier this year. You're going to enjoy it!
It went pretty easily, but, I spent very little time naffing with the cam placement - popped it in and went for it, without getting pumped at all. Watched a guy bail on it straight after me, the difference being he faffed for ages with 'that cam'.
As another said, there is good gear you must place and extend with a sling before you attack the overhang.
I could be giving a curve ball here, and it depends on your head, but focus on the climbing rather than the protection and it will go much easier. It's basically a very easy boulder problem in an intimidating position.
In reply to Ciderslider:
Why not just pre-place the cams if you're worried? You've lost the onsight anyway, and as you say if you're pushing your grade you might as well be safe.
Good luck - it's a brave choice for your second grit HVS!
Why not just pre-place the cams if you're worried? You've lost the onsight anyway, and as you say if you're pushing your grade you might as well be safe.
Good luck - it's a brave choice for your second grit HVS!
In reply to Jamie B:
"Good luck - it's a brave choice for your second grit HVS!"
Is it not E1 in the latest definitive guide?
"Good luck - it's a brave choice for your second grit HVS!"
Is it not E1 in the latest definitive guide?
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Having barely seconded it on a tight rope I'd say it was classic HVS/E1 borderline, right on the cusp, wouldn't be a disgrace at either.
Having barely seconded it on a tight rope I'd say it was classic HVS/E1 borderline, right on the cusp, wouldn't be a disgrace at either.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Its E1 in all the guides now and I'd say its solid having watched hundreds of ascents and quite a few fails from experienced HVS and E1 climbers. My advice is work out a list of roof climbs to get you there from VS and when you go for it ensure gear is good then don't dither. Sad as it was I even practiced right foot heel hooks on a finger board in my house, pretending to place gear veeerrry slowly. On the sharp end I breezed the crux and before I knew it I'd found a lay down rest not so far above. An even more sad bit was a muppet pal of mine inadvertantly opened the back of my film camera so all the photos were lost.
Its E1 in all the guides now and I'd say its solid having watched hundreds of ascents and quite a few fails from experienced HVS and E1 climbers. My advice is work out a list of roof climbs to get you there from VS and when you go for it ensure gear is good then don't dither. Sad as it was I even practiced right foot heel hooks on a finger board in my house, pretending to place gear veeerrry slowly. On the sharp end I breezed the crux and before I knew it I'd found a lay down rest not so far above. An even more sad bit was a muppet pal of mine inadvertantly opened the back of my film camera so all the photos were lost.
In reply to Jamie B: Actually pre placing the gear is an idea I suppose but I would still like to actually lead it and place the gear as I go (even though it's not gonna be an onsight).
I have thought about top roping it but don't really wanna do that.
I am hopeful that a mate of mine (who is a much, much better climber) is going to join us that weekend - then I can maybe talk him into leading it (so I can second it first - with no fear stress)
I have thought about top roping it but don't really wanna do that.
I am hopeful that a mate of mine (who is a much, much better climber) is going to join us that weekend - then I can maybe talk him into leading it (so I can second it first - with no fear stress)
In reply to Ciderslider:
No offence but not only do you want the beta, but now your talking about pre placing the gear and effectively headpointing it. Why not just do a similar but slightly easier climb? Wouldn't leading that onsight and in good style be more rewarding?
Anyway not really any of my buisiness I guess.
No offence but not only do you want the beta, but now your talking about pre placing the gear and effectively headpointing it. Why not just do a similar but slightly easier climb? Wouldn't leading that onsight and in good style be more rewarding?
Anyway not really any of my buisiness I guess.
In reply to Offwidth:
Really E1 ??? I thought that after much debate the general consensus was solid top end HVS ?
Like the bit about the fingerboard/ heel hooks, made me smile
> (In reply to CurlyStevo)
>
> Its E1 in all the guides now and I'd say its solid having watched hundreds of ascents and quite a few fails from experienced HVS and E1 climbers. Sad as it was I even practiced right foot heel hooks on a finger board in my house, pretending to place gear veeerrry slowly. On the sharp end I breezed the crux and before I knew it I'd found a lay down rest not so far above.
>
> Its E1 in all the guides now and I'd say its solid having watched hundreds of ascents and quite a few fails from experienced HVS and E1 climbers. Sad as it was I even practiced right foot heel hooks on a finger board in my house, pretending to place gear veeerrry slowly. On the sharp end I breezed the crux and before I knew it I'd found a lay down rest not so far above.
Really E1 ??? I thought that after much debate the general consensus was solid top end HVS ?
Like the bit about the fingerboard/ heel hooks, made me smile
In reply to Ciderslider:
I always think the way to tell the grade of a route is the latest definitive guide - in that its E1.
I always think the way to tell the grade of a route is the latest definitive guide - in that its E1.
In reply to CurlyStevo: You have a point mate, but - I've blown the onsight now anyway so it would be nice to lead it in the best/safest style I can. This doesn't mean that I haven't got my eye on other onsight projects nearby
I've just got a bit of a thing about this one (don't know why).
I've just got a bit of a thing about this one (don't know why).
In reply to Ciderslider: Under the lip, big nut and big cam (blue dragon I think), these are bomber. Red dragon in the first break, this one is slightly trickier to place as you're hanging in space - luckily it's bomber when it goes in right. After that I think I placed some gear after being stood up on the break, largish cam I think here. Extend everything well, otherwise rope drag is horrendous...
The move back from the first break is a little awkward, so make the most of the rest under the overhang but don't hang around and get intimidated. The holds are all there, just remember that you come back left a bit before gunning for the upper break.
The move back from the first break is a little awkward, so make the most of the rest under the overhang but don't hang around and get intimidated. The holds are all there, just remember that you come back left a bit before gunning for the upper break.
In reply to alooker: if you're feet are big enough there's a good heel/toe in the big break too. My rock shoes are 8.5 and it feels solid for me!
In reply to alooker: Fabulous, thank you.
In reply to Ciderslider:
Sorry I gave some false info there. Rockfax downgraded it in EG (it was E1 in PGE) which as an aside, is a classic example of them ignoring their own votes (UKC and Rockfax) and the grade on UKC. It is E1 in VG.
Yes I'm certain it's E1 as an onsight but with gear beta it is a lot easier, especially if your heel hooking is good and you are confident on steep terrain. If your not more than 50:50 I'd say its best not to bother as grinding gear placements by hanging from them on classics isnt great practice.
Sorry I gave some false info there. Rockfax downgraded it in EG (it was E1 in PGE) which as an aside, is a classic example of them ignoring their own votes (UKC and Rockfax) and the grade on UKC. It is E1 in VG.
Yes I'm certain it's E1 as an onsight but with gear beta it is a lot easier, especially if your heel hooking is good and you are confident on steep terrain. If your not more than 50:50 I'd say its best not to bother as grinding gear placements by hanging from them on classics isnt great practice.
In reply to Offwidth: Totally right about the hanging off gear. As I've said if I get to the bottom of the route and don't for any reason think I'm up to it I won't do it.
My problem is that very often I'll not try stuff and convince myself I'm not good enough. However when I do man up and get on with it I very often find it's easier than I thought it was gonna be (always over psych - it's without doubt my biggest hurdle).
As for overhanging stuff - I love swinging off of big jugs (as long as the gears good).
Also if I'm having one of my brave days I know I'd be fine and very likely to get it (it's just being brave enough to get on the route)
My problem is that very often I'll not try stuff and convince myself I'm not good enough. However when I do man up and get on with it I very often find it's easier than I thought it was gonna be (always over psych - it's without doubt my biggest hurdle).
As for overhanging stuff - I love swinging off of big jugs (as long as the gears good).
Also if I'm having one of my brave days I know I'd be fine and very likely to get it (it's just being brave enough to get on the route)
In reply to Ciderslider: Let us know how you get on.
In reply to Offwidth:
Some fool will mention E0 soon.
> (In reply to Ciderslider)
>
> Sorry I gave some false info there. Rockfax downgraded it in EG (it was E1 in PGE) which as an aside, is a classic example of them ignoring their own votes (UKC and Rockfax) and the grade on UKC. It is E1 in VG.
>
>
> Sorry I gave some false info there. Rockfax downgraded it in EG (it was E1 in PGE) which as an aside, is a classic example of them ignoring their own votes (UKC and Rockfax) and the grade on UKC. It is E1 in VG.
>
Some fool will mention E0 soon.
In reply to Papillon:
I've worked with Fiend on BMC Froggatt and am very familiar with his E0 idea... I just don't think this route is one of them. It feels like an HVS when you know exactly how its done and what the key gears is and I think it's getting on for half way up the E1 graded list as a true onsight.
Someone above mentioned jugs... I'd say that would be a borderline description for holds on this route at the grade: they are more like big square-cut edges rounded slightly at the lips and tilted back slightly.
I've worked with Fiend on BMC Froggatt and am very familiar with his E0 idea... I just don't think this route is one of them. It feels like an HVS when you know exactly how its done and what the key gears is and I think it's getting on for half way up the E1 graded list as a true onsight.
Someone above mentioned jugs... I'd say that would be a borderline description for holds on this route at the grade: they are more like big square-cut edges rounded slightly at the lips and tilted back slightly.
In reply to CurlyStevo
I'm increasingly starting to think that saving everything for the onsight is a pretty effective way to keep grades down. Spending time on harder routes is always educational, even if it means doing them in "bad" style...
> Why not just do a similar but slightly easier climb? Wouldn't leading that onsight and in good style be more rewarding?
I'm increasingly starting to think that saving everything for the onsight is a pretty effective way to keep grades down. Spending time on harder routes is always educational, even if it means doing them in "bad" style...
In reply to Offwidth: E0 is like religion.
Having only seconded FBD I would have guessed at solid E1 for the onsight lead too.
Having only seconded FBD I would have guessed at solid E1 for the onsight lead too.
In reply to Jamie B:
Sure, but equally if you get overambitious you end up dogging everything. You need a realistic expectation of getting up the route and gear placements (esp cam slots) on grit classics are beggining to show severe signs of wear in places. Hence, I think people should chose routes other than 3 star classics to push like this.
Sure, but equally if you get overambitious you end up dogging everything. You need a realistic expectation of getting up the route and gear placements (esp cam slots) on grit classics are beggining to show severe signs of wear in places. Hence, I think people should chose routes other than 3 star classics to push like this.
In reply to Ciderslider:
i'd second peakdj's point about placing cams in the first break. place the bomber gear at the top of the slab and extend it well. make the move off the horn to the break, get the heel hook out right and then place cams in the break off a straight arm with your leg taking a big chunk of your weight. it feels a tad bolder but you're not really much further from your gear and it is a much less strenuous position to place it from. and you can see what you need. you'll be hanging from your left hand so have the cams on your right. place the gear quickly and you should still be feeling fresh for the next few moves. just remember to go left before you try to go up. and one last thing - enjoy it.
i'd second peakdj's point about placing cams in the first break. place the bomber gear at the top of the slab and extend it well. make the move off the horn to the break, get the heel hook out right and then place cams in the break off a straight arm with your leg taking a big chunk of your weight. it feels a tad bolder but you're not really much further from your gear and it is a much less strenuous position to place it from. and you can see what you need. you'll be hanging from your left hand so have the cams on your right. place the gear quickly and you should still be feeling fresh for the next few moves. just remember to go left before you try to go up. and one last thing - enjoy it.
In reply to Offwidth:
Fair point. I suppose the optimum progression is a mixture of cruising, trying and failing.
Fair point. I suppose the optimum progression is a mixture of cruising, trying and failing.
In reply to Ciderslider:
Don't use hexes. My mate did and every single one lifted out as he pulled over the roof.
Luckily he got away with a broken ankle when he hit the slab
Don't use hexes. My mate did and every single one lifted out as he pulled over the roof.
Luckily he got away with a broken ankle when he hit the slab
In reply to Alex@home:
Short arses may be surprised that there is any other way of doing this. As soon as my hand properly grabs the lip, I'm at full extension and my feet take the swing, no going back.
> (In reply to Ciderslider)
>
> get the heel hook out right and then place cams in the break off a straight arm with your leg taking a big chunk of your weight. it feels a tad bolder but you're not really much further from your gear and it is a much less strenuous position to place it from.
>
> get the heel hook out right and then place cams in the break off a straight arm with your leg taking a big chunk of your weight. it feels a tad bolder but you're not really much further from your gear and it is a much less strenuous position to place it from.
Short arses may be surprised that there is any other way of doing this. As soon as my hand properly grabs the lip, I'm at full extension and my feet take the swing, no going back.
In reply to Jonny2vests:
We were wondering just last night how you did a reach on an a peak aid climb. Shorter still and some 'interesting' moves are required on FBD.
We were wondering just last night how you did a reach on an a peak aid climb. Shorter still and some 'interesting' moves are required on FBD.
In reply to Ciderslider: Just to say thanks to everyone for all your help and advice. If I do summon up the balls to have a go I'll let you know how it goes
In reply to Ciderslider:
You make it sound optional!
> (In reply to Ciderslider) If I do summon up the balls to have a go
You make it sound optional!
In reply to Jonny2vests:
Congratulations!!!
> (In reply to Offwidth)
> [...]
>
> I became a dad yesterday, how's that?
> [...]
>
> I became a dad yesterday, how's that?
Congratulations!!!
In reply to jonny2vests:
>I became a dad yesterday, how's that?
>Not out
Out, I should have thought?!
jcm
>I became a dad yesterday, how's that?
>Not out
Out, I should have thought?!
jcm
In reply to Offwidth:
I think I know what you're saying...
I've never seen anyone else do it the way I do and I have to relearn it every time, must be about 6 times now. Works though.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=128919
I just can't bring myself to solo it, I have to walk my fingers into the break on the lip one by one, would terrify me solo.
Baby girl born Friday lunchtime 5 weeks premature but otherwise healthy, 3.8lbs, ape index positive
> (In reply to Jonny2vests)
>
> We were wondering just last night how you did a reach on an a peak aid climb. Shorter still and some 'interesting' moves are required on FBD.
>
> We were wondering just last night how you did a reach on an a peak aid climb. Shorter still and some 'interesting' moves are required on FBD.
I think I know what you're saying...
I've never seen anyone else do it the way I do and I have to relearn it every time, must be about 6 times now. Works though.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=128919
I just can't bring myself to solo it, I have to walk my fingers into the break on the lip one by one, would terrify me solo.
Baby girl born Friday lunchtime 5 weeks premature but otherwise healthy, 3.8lbs, ape index positive
In reply to Jonny2vests: Congratulations!
In reply to Offwidth:
FBD or the baby? :-$
In terms of significant moments in life, I'd now put child birth at the very top by some margin. Marriage in comparison (for me) was like a fart in wind tunnel. I cried more than the baby I think.
Thanks everyone.
FBD or the baby? :-$
In terms of significant moments in life, I'd now put child birth at the very top by some margin. Marriage in comparison (for me) was like a fart in wind tunnel. I cried more than the baby I think.
Thanks everyone.
In reply to Jonny2vests: Congratulations mate Enjoy
In reply to Ciderslider:
is it this weekend you are going to the peak?
is it this weekend you are going to the peak?
In reply to Ciderslider: Yes when are you going to try it? I have been checking to see if you had done it this last weekend.
In reply to CurlyStevo: Was set to go this weekend - last night my mother in law (Rita) suffered a stroke. She is currently in hospital and gravely ill. It looks like FBD will have to wait
In reply to Ciderslider: Sorry to hear that, thoughts and hopes for you at a properly grotty time.
In reply to puppythedog: Thanks mate
In reply to Ciderslider: Hi Mark,
Sorry to hear your news. My thoughts are with you. My mother in law suffered a stroke just after Christmas, but made an incredible recovery. Hope the same happens to yours.
Regards Steve
Sorry to hear your news. My thoughts are with you. My mother in law suffered a stroke just after Christmas, but made an incredible recovery. Hope the same happens to yours.
Regards Steve
In reply to Ciderslider:
I cant remember much useful info but I do remember resting like this:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=67021
and sorting out my protection. I've never seen anyone else do it like that, but it enabled my to have confidence in my gear before I committed.
I also got a full lay down rest in the upper break, even though it was quite a nice position I don't recommend it as it was very difficult to extract myself.
I cant remember much useful info but I do remember resting like this:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=67021
and sorting out my protection. I've never seen anyone else do it like that, but it enabled my to have confidence in my gear before I committed.
I also got a full lay down rest in the upper break, even though it was quite a nice position I don't recommend it as it was very difficult to extract myself.
In reply to Ciderslider:
Yes FBD won't go away. I hope the lady makes a good recovery.
Yes FBD won't go away. I hope the lady makes a good recovery.
In reply to Ciderslider:
Best wishes.
> (In reply to CurlyStevo) Was set to go this weekend - last night my mother in law (Rita) suffered a stroke. She is currently in hospital and gravely ill. It looks like FBD will have to wait
Best wishes.
In reply to Ciderslider: Rita passed away early Friday morning, thank you all for your kind words.
In reply to Ciderslider: Condolences to you and your family.
In reply to Ciderslider:
Hi Mark,
I'm sorry. My partner's mum died a year and a half ago - a rather messy decline, not good at all. At least it seems that your mother-in-law was spared such indignities. But still, not what anybody wants. Our worlds spin on their axes; suddenly everything changes.
The route will (nearly) always still be there. But different...
Hang in in there mate.
Best wishes,
Mick
Hi Mark,
I'm sorry. My partner's mum died a year and a half ago - a rather messy decline, not good at all. At least it seems that your mother-in-law was spared such indignities. But still, not what anybody wants. Our worlds spin on their axes; suddenly everything changes.
The route will (nearly) always still be there. But different...
Hang in in there mate.
Best wishes,
Mick
In reply to Ciderslider: condolences mr Ciderslider.
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...