/ lots of half rope questions

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Keiran.A - on 20 Jun 2013
cobra 2 8.6mm http://bealplanet.com/sport/anglais/corde-cobra.php

half rope with low impact force, how well will it function in a twin rope system?
Is 8.6mm a bit thick for a double rope, it takes a lot of falls and isn't very heavy but is it less manageable, particularly if used twin?

GrahamD - on 20 Jun 2013
In reply to Keiran.A:

Just to be clear, do you mean 'used twin' (ie run totally side by side, both ropes clipped through every caribiner) or used 'double' (usually alternate ropes into alternate pieces of gear) ? For double, 8.6mm is pretty normal I'd have thought. For twin, they are usually <8mm
CurlyStevo - on 20 Jun 2013
In reply to Keiran.A:
I think the mammut genesis will last you longer.
Bulls Crack - on 20 Jun 2013
In reply to Keiran.A:

like why are they called 'half' ropes? i've always called then double ropes
lithos on 20 Jun 2013
In reply to Bulls Crack:
> (In reply to Keiran.A)
>
> like why are they called 'half' ropes? i've always called then double ropes

because way back when we had full ropes and half ropes (before kernmantle)
really 'double rope' is a technique.

so it should be to climb double rope style with half ropes but frankly life's too
short and bugger that!

Twin of course is a conflagration of the 2 (physical and technique)
AlanLittle - on 20 Jun 2013
In reply to Bulls Crack:

"Double ropes" is an informal term generally used to mean "any rope you use as a pair", of which there are two different kinds.

"Half ropes" is the official UIAA term for the the ropes UK trad climbers generally use: two ropes used in parallel but clipped spearately.

"Twin ropes" are normally thinner - 7 to 8mm - and always clipped together. Used quite a bit in Europe for long alpine rock routes & ice; rarely used in the UK.
AlanLittle - on 20 Jun 2013
In reply to Keiran.A:

I often use Beal Ice Lines (8.1) as twins although they aren't rated as such. Wouldn't want to go much thicker.
BnB - on 20 Jun 2013
In reply to AlanLittle:
> (In reply to Keiran.A)
>
> I often use Beal Ice Lines (8.1) as twins although they aren't rated as such. Wouldn't want to go much thicker.

Why would you want to do this when they are rated as halves? You'll be increasing the impact force on the pro and losing the benefits of clipping independently.
Keiran.A - on 20 Jun 2013
In reply to BnB:
sorry guys i should have said, my main reason of asking about twin was for sport climbs.

i already have 60m & 35m single for most sport outings. although twin ropes might be favourable for multi-pitch sport, im mainly asking to understand its limitations.
Keiran.A - on 20 Jun 2013
In reply to GrahamD:

i was goin by AlanLittles' definitions.

what do you think it would be like manipulating 8.6mm as twin?
EwanR on 20 Jun 2013
In reply to Keiran.A: I was climbing on a friend's cobras last week and they're nice ropes. We had no problem using them as a twin (belaying both with an italian hitch and an ATC).

Regarding the half/twin certification thing. It's simply a case of what the manufacturer wants to do/sell. Look at the Beal joker which has a higher half impact force but certified as a twin so they can have this silly "triple" rope. This year Mammut are certifying the genesis and phoenix as twins even though they're pretty much the same rope as last year which was only a half.

Obviously they're not going to have as low an impact force as a dedicated twin but they will safely work as such.
Keiran.A - on 20 Jun 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:
> (In reply to Keiran.A)
> I think the mammut genesis will last you longer

cheers stevo, looks good. similar specs plus its tested as twin and half, and is tiny bit thinner/lighter.
is the "coating finish" better than supper dry. also i like the idea of unicode and bicolour sheath on the beal rope.
CurlyStevo - on 20 Jun 2013
In reply to Keiran.A:
Cobras would probably be fine as a twin rope, that said the genesis are better ropes IMO and pass both the half rope and twin rope tests.
CurlyStevo - on 20 Jun 2013
In reply to Keiran.A:
"i like the idea of unicode "
are you a coder?

Genesis come only with both coating finish AND super dry.

I must admit I'd quite like a bicolour sheath, but the unicore feature I wouldn't worry about too much my self, better to get a more hard wearing rope that will last longer!
alasdair19 on 20 Jun 2013
In reply to Keiran.A: the twins will work, my only experience was getting badly tangled using the beal version some time ago. They are exactly what you need for multipitch sport though!

you will bounce miles on them compared with single ropes so be careful falling and adseiling. it goes without saying that you need a bugette or similar. bi colour sheafs are cool. beal do a coating or i think golden dry with the golden dry being treatment of individual strands of the core PLUS a nice coating.
CurlyStevo - on 20 Jun 2013
In reply to alasdair19:
"They are exactly what you need for multipitch sport though!"
Really? I would have thought depending where you are going either a very long single rope, or if not a pair of very light skinny twin ropes a more usual choice.

"you will bounce miles on them compared with single ropes"
Not as twin ropes you won't, the impact force will be very comparable to a single rope (go and look at the impact force for twin ropes), meaning there is a very similar amount of stretch. Anyway is bounce the right word? Don't think I've ever really bounced much because of a fall!

" it goes without saying that you need a bugette"
I realise DMM advice the buggete goes to 9.5mm ropes but in my experience it does not. Its really a bit too high friction for taking in and paying out on my 8mm pheonix now they are a bit furry. I've tried using this device on 8.5 mm ropes and it just doesn't work well at all once the ropes are worn in a bit. I'd suggest using something like the ATC XP with these ropes.



AlanLittle - on 20 Jun 2013
In reply to BnB:

Valid questions. I'm mostly climbing multipitch in the Alps, and much of it bolted multipitch sport, where half rope technique really isn't necessary and I only need two ropes for the abseil range. And my continental partners would be upset and confused if I asked them to suddenly learn half rope belaying mid route - they're generally already in a state of shock from not being belayed on a munter hitch.

Otoh having ropes rated as halves rather than pure skinny twins comes in handy for the odd non-straight pitch.

The Ice Line is such a soft half rope that the impact force thing doesn't bother me in the least.
CurlyStevo - on 20 Jun 2013
In reply to AlanLittle:
I suspect a lot of half ropes would pass the twin test - I think all of mammuts half ropes currently do and I doubt they designed them especially for that.
Keiran.A - on 20 Jun 2013
In reply to EwanR:
cheers fella, that gives me alot of confidence. i managed to find the following on beals website that agrees with you: http://bealplanet.com/sport/anglais/typecorde.php#typedyna


"In effect to be in line and to limit to 12-kN the impact force of 2 strands of rope used in twin fashion, when tested with 55-kg on one strand, the impact force should be limited to 7-kN!
A half rope at 8-kN gives an impact force of 13.5-kN tested as a twin rope, rather more than the resistance of the human body!"

"And if you climb on bomb-proof runners? (Bolts, screws…) is it still necessary to separate the strands ?
Most often it is unnecessary, runners are in general in line (Preferable, if necessary, to lengthen with extenders to bring them in line with the rope).
As these points are not unpredictable, and they don’t risk failing because of a too-high impact force, it will be preferable to clip the strands of rope together in order to help to resist the repeated falls which characterise routes safeguarded by bomb-proof anchor points.
What will the impact force be on half rope if it is tested with 80kg on one strand?
It will be around 25% more than the test result at 55-kg."
Keiran.A - on 20 Jun 2013
In reply to AlanLittle:
> The Ice Line is such a soft half rope that the impact force thing doesn't bother me in the least.

do you loose much longevity going that thin. not worried about the stated amount of falls, more durability.

In reply to CurlyStevo:
my mac prefers "coder" to core

Another question:
as a bowline is weakened when the loop is cross load. if using a bowline on the bight with yosemite finish as a tie in, what are the limitations of using the loop created by the yosemite for belaying. should you have a short route and decide to double one rope over to make two.
CurlyStevo - on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to Keiran.A:
Ice lines are renound for being not very hard wearing. I think the mammut pheonix are the gold standard 8mm ropes.

I've had pheonix for 6 years and have just replaced them (with 8.5 mm genesis), although they still have some life left in them.

I (and other ukc posters) found the pheonix 8mm to be very hard wearing ropes and they lasted better than my beal verdon II 9mm. Its hard to hypothesise why but I think the smaller rope has less rope drag which helps.

The main reasons I've gone back up to 8.5 mm from 8mm are:
- 8mm ropes are more likely to be cut through by a sharp edge. This means I tend to trust 1 8mm rope a lot less than an 8.5 / 9mm (usefull for routes with traverses in the middle and for taking up to seconds).
- As 8mm ropes get fluffy you are aware that they don't have the safety margins of a 8.5 mm rope, they hold roughly HALF the UIAA falls. This reduces their life span when I'd be happy using a similarly fluffy 8.5mm rope.
- 8.5mm ropes retain their elasticity better through their life time (of repeated falls) than 8mm ropes.
- 8mm ropes definately seem to tangle more
- 8.5mm ropes are safer for belaying in standard devices for 8mm you should really get specialist devices like the buggette.
- In theory the genesis should be more hard wearing than the pheonix, there is more sheath to wear.

The primary reason I bought 8mm was I was doing a lot of summer/winter stuff in Scotland when I lived there and weight saving was worthwhile, now I live in the south my priorities are different as the majority of my climbing is cragging.
GrahamD - on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Another thing to be aware of with thin ropes - you can fall a hell of a long way on rope stretch so they aren't great for protecting climbs low down.
Max factor - on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to Keiran.A:

Cobras are great ropes. Just replaced my old pair the same. Personally I have found them better handling than mammut genesis, and they wear very well, but clearly others have different views.

And have also climbed using them as twins on bolted alpine routes and sports routes plenty of times. The theoretically higher impact forces are indiscernible in actual use; falls feel fine and as well cushioned as on a single. The downside is probably the slightly higher weight than a dedicated twin.
CurlyStevo - on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to Max factor:
I agree the genesis don't handle as well and the max force is a bit higher, the reason for this is the higher sheath percentage and that the sheath is tighter woven around the core than the beal ropes, these factors both increace the lifespan of the ropes.

My 8mm mammut pheonix at nearly 6 years old are in better condition than my beal verdon II 9mm ropes were at 5 years old. Also after buying my beal ropes a friend I climbed pretty exclusively with had genesis and his ropes wore a lot slower than mine.

Fair enough this is only a sample of one but others I've found have had similar experiences.

How long did you cobras last and how often did you climb on them.
Lil_Pete - on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:

This is a man who knows what he's talking about (other than how to spell Phoenix ;-) )

I love my Phoenix but have just swapped out for an Edelrid Merlin again 8mm 60m - just to see how that feels no real arguments for it other than it's the best orange ever, although that does make it easier to notice the middle mark go through whereas on my blue Phoenix I don't notice it so often.

Regarding someone's comment earlier about not bouncing on the end of a fall, on a skinny rope; well I don't know if I yoyo up and down but taking some nice healthy sized lobs on to the Phoenix I definitely notice it stretch out and then contract back up at the bottom of the fall!

> (In reply to Keiran.A)
> Ice lines are renound for being not very hard wearing. I think the mammut pheonix are the gold standard 8mm ropes.
>
> I've had pheonix for 6 years and have just replaced them (with 8.5 mm genesis), although they still have some life left in them.
>
> I (and other ukc posters) found the pheonix 8mm to be very hard wearing ropes and they lasted better than my beal verdon II 9mm. Its hard to hypothesise why but I think the smaller rope has less rope drag which helps.
>
> The main reasons I've gone back up to 8.5 mm from 8mm are:
> - 8mm ropes are more likely to be cut through by a sharp edge. This means I tend to trust 1 8mm rope a lot less than an 8.5 / 9mm (usefull for routes with traverses in the middle and for taking up to seconds).
> - As 8mm ropes get fluffy you are aware that they don't have the safety margins of a 8.5 mm rope, they hold roughly HALF the UIAA falls. This reduces their life span when I'd be happy using a similarly fluffy 8.5mm rope.
> - 8.5mm ropes retain their elasticity better through their life time (of repeated falls) than 8mm ropes.
> - 8mm ropes definately seem to tangle more
> - 8.5mm ropes are safer for belaying in standard devices for 8mm you should really get specialist devices like the buggette.
> - In theory the genesis should be more hard wearing than the pheonix, there is more sheath to wear.
>
> The primary reason I bought 8mm was I was doing a lot of summer/winter stuff in Scotland when I lived there and weight saving was worthwhile, now I live in the south my priorities are different as the majority of my climbing is cragging.

Morgan Woods - on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to Keiran.A:
> cobra 2 8.6mm http://bealplanet.com/sport/anglais/corde-cobra.php
>
> half rope with low impact force, how well will it function in a twin rope system?
> Is 8.6mm a bit thick for a double rope, it takes a lot of falls and isn't very heavy but is it less manageable, particularly if used twin?

The Cobra's will never be "twin" ropes, so you should drop that terminology to avoid confusion.

Twin ropes must be used together ie both through the same biner as they are thiner (circa 7mm).

A true double (or half) as you have linked can be used clipping alternately or both strands in the same piece.

For British trad - routes wander so you tend to clip each rope into different pieces.

For Euro multi sport - tend to be a bit more straight up so you just clip both through each quickdraw.

You could use the same rope(s) for each, it seriously doesn't matter. The main concern would be if the abseils for the route are designed for 60m ropes in which case you would want a thinner diameter. For 90% of the climbing out there 50m doubles/half (8.5mm diameter either Beal or Mammut) will be just fine.
Keiran.A - on 21 Jun 2013
CurlyStevo - on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to Keiran.A:
for 2 grams more a metre I'd get the genesis (partially as they have the coating finish! They are 230 a pair here http://www.urbanrock.com/genesis-superdry-60m-pair-deal
Keiran.A - on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:
nice one
Al Randall on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to Keiran.A: I've got a Genesis and I bought it specifically because it is rated as both a half and twin. I chopped one of a pair of skinny ropes in the alps this winter and this is to replace that and also use it as a half. The remaining skinny is 7.5 but is now a little furry so feels and looks the same as the Genesis. Not had a chance to try it as twin yet though.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Keiran.A - on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:
> (In reply to Keiran.A)
> for 2 grams more a metre I'd get the genesis (partially as they have the coating finish! They are 230 a pair here http://www.urbanrock.com/genesis-superdry-60m-pair-deal

thats four snickers bars id have to leave at home
CurlyStevo - on 21 Jun 2013
In reply to Keiran.A:
it really depends what your main use is going to be. Mountains I'd get the 8mm cragging the 8.5mm - thats just me though.
Keiran.A - on 22 Jun 2013
In reply to Keiran.A:
>
> Another question:
> as a bowline is weakened when the loop is cross load. if using a bowline on the bight with yosemite finish as a tie in, what are the limitations of using the loop created by the yosemite for belaying. should you have a short route and decide to double one rope over to make two.

any thoughts on that yet?
Keiran.A - on 24 Jun 2013
In reply to Keiran.A:
email reply from urban rock:

"The Beal Cobra 2 bicolour goldendry is only made in lengths of 100m or 110m

The drycover version is made in lengths of 80m, 90m and 100m.

These are not held as stock items in the UK but we can enquire as to how long delivery from France would take if one was needed."

so i won't be getting bicolors!!

will try and get to the shops to have a play with cobra 2, genesis and maybe meteor.
really appreciate everyones input. will let you all know what i eventually go for.k

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