UKC

In order to avoid upsetting those poor souls such as myself who prefer to watch the TDF highlights without knowing the results, can I suggest that this thread be used for news, views and spoilers relating to the race. For a starter does anybody know if David Harmon will be back commentating on Eurosport?

In reply to cragtyke: Looks like Froom fell off before the official start. Not a great start!

In reply to cragtyke:

Who's the new voice on the ITV4 commentary team?

(ie not Boardman & Imlac)

In reply to JLS:

Matt Rendal?

In reply to cragtyke:

No Liggett and Sherwin now. I guess they both lost credibility over the Armstrong affair but particularly Liggett.

In reply to DaveHK:

I'm talking bollocks Liggett is on now. Really can't take that man seriously.

In reply to DaveHK:

>"Really can't take that man seriously"

Focus Dave, focus on what's important and let the fluff wash over you.

In reply to cragtyke:

What an absolute disaster at the finish. Surely this stage should be neutralised?

In reply to La Shamster:

That was great - proper cycling.

E

In reply to Enty:

You couldn't have written that script!

In reply to La Shamster:

That effin bus! What a joke.

Great sprint though - Millar still got it!

E

In reply to Enty: I that was a film you would say it was too far fetched

In reply to cragtyke:

good job they had race radio

In reply to cragtyke: unbelievable

In reply to Enty:



not bad for a 36 year old.

didn`t realise that he was involved in setting up the a Garmin team a few years back.
And I assume must be a director of sorts.

In reply to andymac:

Bet that bus driver wanted to crawl into a hole and die.

In reply to La Shamster:

Never seen anything like it!

In reply to cragtyke: aussies fined £1400.

In reply to Removed User:

I felt sorry for him. It probably wasn't his fault. It looked as though they had lowered the gantry ready for the finish, but nobody had bothered to tell the driver.

In reply to cragtyke:

Another good day for Millar.

In reply to andymac:

David Millar is part owner of team Garmin Sharp

In reply to almost sane:

I like their cycling gear. a lot.

the chav in me wants the team Hoodie

In reply to cragtyke: i think the spectators are getting worse.reminds me of the mid 80's rallying when people would part down the middle.that ended in tragedy.wouldnt be a surprise if something serious happened.

another really close one with a dog,who the f*** has a loose dog near a bike race?

In reply to mark s:

>"who the f*** has a loose dog near a bike race?"

That's the first time my dog has done that. It's normally very well behaved.

In reply to mark s:

It's Corsica. The Corsicans make The French look like a nation of frigid rulebook obsessives.

Dogs, or rather their owners, are occasionally an issue on The Tour. Mind last year, Philippe Gilbert did a superman over a huge Newfoundland/Patou type thing that had wandered out into the peloton.

In reply to mark s:

If you listened really closely to the Eurosport coverage, you could hear cries of "Fenton!"

In reply to almost sane:

Very likely, as they didn't even seem able to get the correct winner of Today's stage during the commentary.

Eurosport have got much better over the years but they still often give the impression that the commentators are sitting in their bedroom watching the same feed as the viewer on their 14" TV and manage to comment on something only once they've been prodded by their mum who's just walked in to check that they're OK. Only MotorsTV seem to regularly surpass them.

In reply to Kipper:

ITV4 and the Team Sky twitter feed made the same mistake, it seems they were all basing it on Race Radio, which originally got it wrong.

In reply to Removed User: He also had to be restrained from administering a short course on dog handling to the owner of said dog.

In reply to cragtyke:

You'd think the French would have introduced a law similar to ours whereby race officials could shoot dogs seen off lead near the race. It would presumably solve this problem. It's all very amusing on youtube, but wasn't a rider killed in the 80's by some cretin with a dog like this?

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joaquim_Agostinho#Death

In reply to JLS:
Missed ITV4 highlights, no posts on this thread, guess I didn't miss much?

In reply to kevin stephens: Simon Gerrans out-sprinted Sagan by a small margin

In reply to kevin stephens:
There was a fat beardy bloke in a red leotard and tutu chasing the koM up a hill. Not much else going on.

In reply to cragtyke:

So Team Time Trial today.

Millar's been gunning for the yellow jersey since his good sprint on stage one. He's looking good for it, as his Garmin team is full of guys with solid form and well versed in the dicipline.

But this, so far, hasn't been a Tour to follow the planned script so we can expect Garmin to wipe-out on the first corner and Omega Pharma to proplel unheralded Michal Kwiatkowski into yellow.

So who's your bet to win the TTT?

In reply to JLS:

For the ignoramuses amongst us, in the team TT, does the whole team get the time of the 5th rider (assuming they don't time out) ?

In reply to GrahamD: If they're together, yes. Any stragglers get their own time.

In reply to GrahamD:

No, if guys are dropped they get their own time. Ie 1 to 5 get the 5th mans time, 6 to 9 get their own time which will be same as 5th man if they've not been dropped or not let a one second time gap open in the final dash for the line.

In reply to JLS:
Not that it is likely, but what happens if only 4 make it to the line together?

For the TTT stage they'd get the time of the 5th (dropped) rider, but for individual classification?

In reply to betamonkey:

>"for individual classification?"

It's going to be the time of 5th rider too.

So 4 riders are never going to leave a 5th man behind. Occasionally you might see the 5th man dropped if the final charge for the line which I suppose could result in a lost second or two.

More interesting question might be what if only 4 riders manage to finish?

I'm guessing it would be pretty exceptional for a team to lose 5 riders so early in the Tour and the organisers would probably allow them to continue with time and points penalties. (Hence the TTT is generally one of the early stages)

In reply to JLS:
I expect Sky, Movistar, Garmin, Omega-Pharma and BMC to all put in good performances, probably all within 30 seconds of each other. Don't expect that Saxo will be far off, but wouldn't expect them to win.

From a British point of view, I'd like to Millar take yellow - he always gives a good interview. From a Froome-to-win perspective, I'd like to see Saxo (Roche) or BMC (Evans) take the win and have to do the chasing for the next few days...

In reply to betamonkey:

GreenEdge! Who'd a thunk it?

In reply to JLS:

Did they get their bus driver to take a stage?

Geraint Thomas AMAZING

In reply to JLS:
Predictions for today? Bit of a lumpy one, so could shed a lot of the sprinters if the pace is high. Smart money would be on Sagan?

In reply to betamonkey:

A day for Sylvain Chavanel I think.

In reply to JLS:
Nice shot of the Callanques crags on the highlights this evening

In reply to kevin stephens:

A good win for Cav and the Calanques looked great, wish I was there.

In reply to Christheclimber:

Indeed. If he continues to get lead-outs like that he'll be looking at winning a barrow load of stages.

Good sprint from Boassan-Hagen too.

In reply to cragtyke:

Looks liek it'll be an interesting tactical battle out on the road today:

"According to meteorologists, the peloton can expect strong cross-winds, including a northerly Mistral with gusts up to 60/70km/h between km 50 and km 140. That augers for the peloton to be in a constant fight for position and as they well-know, not everyone can be up front and out of danger"

In reply to cragtyke: have people been throwing tacks on the road again?
do they give reasons for doing this or is it just the french been french

In reply to mark s:

Who says it's the French? But yes, reports of tacks being found in punctured wheels after a spate of them at 60KM mark yesterday.

I wonder if we'll start seeing a tractor sweeping the road ahead of the peleton in the next few years - it's very sad that people feel the need to do this.

I'm not sure if it's a malicous thing against cycling in general, or some short sighted attempt to spice up the race, or perhaps a deliberate attempt to attack a particular team (unsuccessful by the looks of it).

As far as I can imagine, this can only be being done by someone at the side of the road as the race comes past rather than a night before type thing - which means the perpetrators are making quite an effort to do this.

In reply to cragtyke:

So first stage in the mountains today.... are sky going to boss it or will contador et al be able to disrupt and get some time on Froome?

In reply to balmybaldwin: Quintana's flying up those hills..

In reply: no yellow jersey for froome..

In reply to malk:

You sure about that?

In reply to Rampikino: looks like Bertie needs a steak!

In reply to Rampikino: and Contador riding forward on his saddle- he's out of it..

In reply to Rampikino:

amazing how things change..

In reply to malk:

First the Lions, then Froome. Happy day!

In reply to malk: bloody awesome day.....so impressive! Froome 1'45 on contador...a great day!

In reply to abr1966: impressive ride by Froome!

In reply to cragtyke:

Great ride by froome, porte and kenuech(sp?)

Having said that, I hope theres a bit more competition tomorrow and in the Alps, and its not all over.

Contador doesnt look like he should be leading his team at the moment.

In reply to balmybaldwin:
The bad news is that Pierre Roland is back in the polka dot onesie.

As it looks like Sky have the race sewn up already, maybe they will try and ensure Porte or Kennaugh gets that prize

In reply to balmybaldwin:

Surprised with Schlek and Contador, expected more. Froome and Skye were very strong.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Contador was told : 'if you don't eat your meat, you can't win the Tour. How can you win the Tour if you don't eat your meat'.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Should be thrown off the race for that.

E

In reply to Pyreneenemec:

I heard he bonked (or as runners call it, hit the wall).

In reply to Chris the Tall:


Only wearing it on behalf of someone else surely?

In reply to dale1968:

to say the least!

The 23:14 ascent of Ax-3-Domaines puts Froome in third on the all-time list for the climb, behind only Laiseka and Armstrong in 2001. The VAM of 1715 m/h converts to a power output of 6.3 W/kg (Ferrari method) and about 6.5 W/kg with other models (CPL, rst)

http://www.sportsscientists.com/

In reply to malk:

Look, are you insinuating something?

In reply to felt:

I'm not sure he is.

But Froome said plenty.

In reply to Rampikino:

I disagree. He's the master of the sly dig. Besides, it's a quote from yesteryear that he'll doubtless recognise.

In reply to everyone :

I've just seen France TV's star sports presenter, Gerald Holz asking Christopher Froome 'les yeux dans les yeux' if he had taken any illicit drugs to achieve his current level of success. Pretty poor show if you ask me, just after presenting the new Yellow Jersey.

Shame on you Gerald !

In reply to Pyreneenemec:

Yes, the guy's pretty wooden.

In reply to cragtyke: Does anyone know what happened to Kiriyenka? He wouldn't be my first suggestion for a rider who'd be the only one outside the time limit.

Have Bjarne been kicked out for being a cheat yet?

In reply to Chris the Tall:


Why is he wearing that? It looks awful. Isnt it supposed to be a jersey?

Great days racing, caught a bit at the start live, and highlights missed out climbs 2&3, was a bit of a surprise that the others didnt manage to capitalise on froome getting isolated so early. Did they all run out of steam in the middle?

In reply to malk:


I hope you are wrong. It has to be said there were some remarkable recoveries today from others who looked totally beaten yesterday.

In reply to malk:

The Sky argument is that during the EPO era coaches got lazy. Or just that coaching in cycling was years behind other sports, particularly swimming, and that sky were able to exploit this gap by taking a different approach.

Either way, saying there is a certain performance threshold which can only be reached by doping, because previously it had only been reached by known dopers, is nonsense. All sports have moved on in the last 12.

Furthermore, the comparisons are irrelevant because the climb came in a completely stage in the race. The big advantage EPO gave was in recovery, not in the first big climb of the tour.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

So just when we thought the Tour was tied up and boring it gets thrown wide open. What a stage yesterday!

What's the UKC verdict? Has Sky blown their stack or will we seen them back on form after a rest day? Bit of a wasted opportunity from Movistar? Or all part of the plan to break-up the Sky team. And Quintana is clearly a nutcase!

In reply to Bob Hughes:

Honestly?

I think they tried to break him and failed badly yesterday.

The Sky team can rest and keep Froome in Yellow until the Alps and he will have a massive psychological advantage when he gets there.

In reply to Bob Hughes:

Movistar looked good, and it does look relatively interesting but I think the above is probably correct. Still at least people can stop worrying it will be a dry controlled affair.

What happened to Porte was remarkable but his form throughout the season suggests it is not likely to be a regular occurence in the next two weeks and Froome is clearly the strongest rider. I think how Thomas' comes together over the next week could be interesting.

Teams like BMC and Garmin who theoretically have the riders to push in the same way as Movistar don't seem to be on it as complete teams, although some of them will pull out soem great results I'd imagine.

I'm really excited by Quintana. Judging by the way he did sky over earlier in the season he's got a good time trial in him as well.

Does anyone know how many riders the Columbians get for the world championships? On a hilly course Henao, Uran, Quintana and Betancur is an exciting group.

In reply to cragtyke: Amazing, sky made a play on the first day in the mountains when a lot of people often struggle and it paid dividends for them and caught the other teams on the hop. It was great to watch as well rather than the normal twitchy procession of the contenders all in a bunch watching each other until the last mountain day. Next day the sky team were knackered after their effort but that seems to have lit a fire under a few of the other teams which made for an exciting day. Considering riders often take a few mtn stages to really find the form I hope sky recover enough to protect Froome but whether they do or don't I hope there will be some lively riding from all the teams. While Sagen deserves the green on present form I hope he gets a flat so their is some doubt for a few more sprint stages over it.

Cheers

Toby

In reply to Rampikino: Yeah they really needed to put some time into him yesterday. He can expect to take a few more seconds out of them on Wednesday's Time Trial too.

On the other hand he is really out on his own now. No other Sky riders for another 18 minutes whereas Movistar, Belkin and Saxo have all got 2 each within 2 minutes of the yellow jersey.

In reply to Bob Hughes:

Lets not forget Dan Martin's excellent stage win. Well done Dan.

As it is, I think Sky will bounce back and with no one else in their team in contention it bodes well for Froome as the can protect him all the way.

In reply to Removed User: yes, great ride by Dan Martin.

In reply to Removed User:

Did you see the tweet from Vaughters ?

"We need a panda, now. Anyone? Panda! Hurry the F up with the Panda!"

(see http://bikesandbidons.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/lbl-panda-running.png )


I could see Froome extending his lead to 5 or 6 minutes and still losing it in the last 3 days. I still have a feeling that Contador might be playing a long game

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Definitely looks that way from his comments in Cycling News. Or he might be bluffing...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-buoyed-by-aggressive-tour-de-franc...

Although only Nairo Quintana attacked – several times in fact – Contador was able to follow Froome as the British rider was forced to chase.

In the end Contador finished with the main group of overall contenders with strong support from Roman Kreuziger and Michael Rogers.

"Today was a very difficult day because we started very fast and the peloton broke into a number of different parts," Contador told Cyclingnews as he munched through a sandwich after showering at the finish.

"However I’m happy because the team is very strong and I felt a lot better than yesterday, which was a very bad day for me."

"Okay, at the final there weren’t many changes, although Richie was dropped and Froome was alone in the stage. The most important thing now is that I recover well, give 100 per cent in the two time trials and then I hope that in the last week, because the last week is always the best week for me in the grand tours, that I feel better and that I’m able to ride better in the GC."

On the final climb, with Quintana jabbing away at Froome’s reserves Contador took a defence guard, gluing himself to the Sky rider’s wheel.

"I concentrated on Froome on the last climb and I think it was better to wait for another day because it was 30 kilometres to the finish from the top of the last climb. That’s a long distance and I need my power for the next time trial."

Asked if he could still come from behind and win the race, Contador responded buoyantly, clearly motivated after a stage that saw Sky on the ropes.

"The race isn’t finished. Of course Froome is very strong, and also in the time trials, but the race finishes in Paris."

In reply to Chris the Tall:
Thanks for that - brilliant. I saw Vaughters tweet and wondered what on earth he was blethering about. I don't remember seeing that in the live LBL coverage though.



Whilst part of me can see Froome blowing a decent lead on one particularly bad day as a distinct possibility, I'm not sure that previous form would suggest that. At last year's Tour and the 2011 Vuelta he was strong throught. It happened in the 2012 Vuelta to an extent but that's not really a fair comparison.

In reply to niallk:

I can see Movistar using Quintana to wear Froome down leaving it open for Valverde.

In reply to Bob Hughes:

I can also see Valverde wearing Froome down to leave it open for Bertie.

Twice up Alpe d'Huez will be brutal, but even if Froome gets through it unscathed it's a question of what damage will be done to the team. Will they be able to give him any support him on the next two days ? Their collapse yesterday was remarkable - but maybe this is what clean racing looks like.

In reply to Chris the Tall: all depends on if it was a beef sandwich he was munching on?

Toby

In reply to Toby_W:

Joking apart, is a totally clean Tour really possible ?

I know it's harsh, but Contador should never have been allowed to return to professional cycling.

In reply to Pyreneenemec: if it's legal- do it (never mind ethics and a level playing field). seems like Sky and UK plc (tax avoidance etc) have a head start in this dubious activity ..

In reply to Chris the Tall: it will be interesting to see what kind of form Sky and Movistar are in today. But mainly a day for the sprinters. Cav will be looking for another stage win.

In reply to malk:

What dubious activity are Sky participating in?

In reply to Pyreneenemec:


Many would argue that ex-dopers play a really important part in cleaning up the sport - people like Vaughters and Millar who understand the pressure riders are put under by their teams.

Then again there is the question of whether Contador is an ex-doper.

I just hope that he and Valverde are being targeted by random tests - so far both will have avoided the mandatory ones by avoiding a high stage finish or the yellow jersey.

As to Sky being clean, I suspect McQuaid will be putting the same amount of effort into finding evidence against them as he did in trying to stop the evidence against Armstrong coming out - it's his best hope of discrediting Cookson.

In reply to Pyreneenemec:

Mmm I don't know but we should strive for it and I agree Contador is an un-repentant, serial doper which is a shame as he is also a brilliant rider even though I've never warmed to him as a rider.

Doping is very sad, similar to photoshop. You used to see an amazing photo now you see an amazing photo and wonder if it's been altered. I have friends who can run a 1.17 half marathon with next to no training and having not been on their bike all year can ride for a week and then keep up with me in the Pyrenees over the Tourmalet. He has skinny legs like you wouldn't believe.

Sky clean? I hope/think so, I'll choose to believe so until I see something from a scientist or lab tech or lab.

Cheers

Toby

In reply to Sir Chasm:

duh- it's a secret

In reply to Pyreneenemec: On Saturdays stage, I found the comments of Liggett and Sherwin to be very naïve when they said that Contador wasn't the climber he used to be!!! I wonder why!!!!

In reply to alan1961:
Listening to 5Live, Dan Lloyd about to pass comment on Valverde when he was suspiciously interrupted by a trumpet !

I think that might be the end of Cav's tour. Amazing he didn't bring down others to be honest but it did look very much like a deliberate shove and, if so, he will be disqualified I think.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Why? Didn't look so bad to me.

Perhaps we need a sweepstake.

In reply to Mike Highbury:

Hate to say this, but Cavendish should be disqualified- a deliberate and nasty action.

In reply to Mike Highbury: watch it head on and imagine he's spanish..

In reply to Mike Highbury:

On the overhead you can see the other guy does swing towards him, but Cav definitely pushes back harder.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax: Yes it looked deliberate and unnecessary.

In reply to Phil1919: seems like UKC has decided. shall we wait for the jury?

In reply to malk:

Seems that Cav stays in and rightly so

This show that Veelers makes the move to his right as Cav is going past him, and moving slightly to his left as he starts to accelerate.

http://twitpic.com/d1qi89/full

However what it doesn't show is that it is Veelers second move to the right - a second before he was a good couple of feet to the left of the white line

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Just like shoulder to shoulder in footy for a 50-50 ball. Unfortunately it's not on grass at 15mph. The riders know that.

Cav should stay.

E

In reply to Enty:

You're only saying that because it's Cavandish !

It was deliberate, there should be some penalty or such actions will become routine !

In reply to Pyreneenemec:

I'm not. I don't like him.

E

In reply to Pyreneenemec:

Next thing they'll be making it a bloody non-contact sport.

E

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

According to the official TdF site review of today's race
'Tom Veelers, crashed; while he didn't bring down any other riders, he forced riders like Goss (OGE) and Cavendish (OPQ) to take evasive action'

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

He was a blocker to interrupt Cav's sprint, Cav went a bit OTT but should be ok.

In reply to Mooncat:

Yep. It happens in chipper races too.

See this photo here:
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/elcap2011/9250786636/sizes/m/

That's me on the right and my mate Bruno on the left. 150m back I'd just blocked the guy in the middle so Bruno could win. Miraculously I got second. Luckily the guy didn't have the temperament or strength of Cav to get me out of the way. We all survived and a 1-2 for USC Vaison

E

In reply to Pyreneenemec: I cant believe the rubbish being spouted about this. The guy was trying to slow Cav down by blocking him and got his just desserts. People want him disqualified! Really? Come on people, get behind him, he's a winner and deserves better than this.

In reply to Gone for good:

I think it looks quite bad, especially from the front, but I think it is cav reacting to the rider coming across.

it certainly wasn't clean, but i don't think it's a disqual. I think the jury have said if he had one he would have been relegated, but not disqualified

In reply to balmybaldwin:


won - sorry!

In reply to Pyreneenemec:

You really think so? I saw that as a 50-50 racing incident, especially as Veelers peels off left, then swings back right whilst the finish swings left. The reason it looks bad on the replay is because Cav is bracing for the impact, whilst Veelers has his head down so gets clattered.

If you want an example of dangerous sprinting/blocking then remember Ferrari in the Giro last year (which he didn't get DQ'd for) or Renshaw blocking Farrar after the 'headbutt' incident in 2010.

In reply to Gone for good:

Didn't look like a winner today. Despite what he said, it looked like he couldn't hold Stegman's wheel. I'm not sure if he's brought his good legs to this Tour. Hopefully he'll pick up... if he doesn't get himself disqualified first.

In reply to Aly:

>"because Cav is bracing for the impact"

...and making sure he got his bracing in first

In reply to Pyreneenemec:

Nobody died and the guy he took out had already bailed and should have got the eff out of the way especially as he knew the whole world was about to sprint past him.

In reply to Removed User:

He's not going to get out of the way with a team mate 100m from a win and Cav just off his shoulder - he blocked him and paid the price.

E

In reply to thread:

So, Froome puts a bit of time into Contador / Valverde / Quintana today and then nothing much happens til Mt Ventoux?

In reply to Aly:

Cavendish's action was well OTT. Had he won, it would have been correct to relegate him.

There is also the question of making cycling and The Tour in particular, credible, in the eyes of the public. This was reinforced very recently with the fall of the immensely popular Laurent Jalabert.

In reply to Pyreneenemec: I agree. I didn't realise it was a DQ offence. A bit of relegation would be sufficient.

In reply to Pyreneenemec: You're equating doping with a bit of argy-bargy in the sprint?

In reply to Sir Chasm:

The Tour is BIG money. It doesn't exist simply to satisfy those who are interested in or participate in the sport. Bad decisions can have big repercussions.


It would be interesting to hear what the Dutch think about the Cavendish incident ?

In reply to Pyreneenemec: Jalabert = cheating. Cavendish/Veelers = part of racing. And crashes make for good tv, I doubt "the Tour" will be very concerned.

In reply to Pyreneenemec:

Well, not exactly Dutch but Veelers's team mate, Kittel said: "I saw the crash on video and it was very unlucky that they bumped into each other," Kittel told a news conference.

"Tom was going hard from doing the lead-out, Cavendish tried to pass him on the right and the handlebars touched each other and Tom lost control and crashed on the ground.

"I cannot imagine that it was on purpose because it was a very hectic situation and it was the last moment of the sprint. Sometimes that is something that just happens."

In reply to cragtyke:
Reports that spectators are booing Cav in todays TT. More significantly someone threw a bottle of urine at him - utterly disgraceful, especially as he was (rightly) exonerated for any part in the crash.

Also reports that Renshaw will sign for OPQS in 2014

In reply to Chris the Tall:

He wasn't totally responsible, that is hardly an exoneration and certainly not rightly !

I'd probably boo him myself !

Lost his lead out man, tucked in behind the Veelers and Kittel. Once Veelers has done his job he should get out of the way. What actually happens is he turns around, sees Cav and lets himself drift that way to block him. Cavendish gives what he gets. Racing.

In reply to SteveRi: Cav gets the yellow jersey! http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/23251598

In reply to Dangerous Dave:
Cav's post race interview should be interesting..........

In reply to SteveRi:

Perfect description.

E

In reply to anyone who knows:

Is two time trials in the first ten days unusual?

In reply to tony:
Not as unusual as not having a prologue, or that the final TT comes so early.

The thing about the tour is that they always change things round. I'm amazed that we haven't seen a repeat of the TT on the final day - worked well in 89

In reply to cragtyke:

This doesnt bode well for a competitive tour (Froome fastest through checkpoints 1&2)

In reply to Enty:
Agreed
Also mentioned earlier Cav was braced and ready for impact Veelers not. Plus if Veelers had not been on white Paint he may not have gone down.
Then it would have just been a bit push and shove, which is all Cav gave (push and shove).

Its not like Cav did... http://twitpic.com/crs0rn

In reply to balmybaldwin:
Amazed that people think this is done and dusted, when we saw on Sunday how vulnerable Sky were in the mountains. Froome should be fine on Ventoux and will probably extend his lead to over 5 minutes in the next TT, but then could lose it in those final 3 days in the Alps.

And that's not even taking into account certain Spaniards ability to recover well.

In reply to balmybaldwin:

In the last 2 decades of legitimate specialization within cycling, it's very suspect to have the same person dominate in the mountains AND challenge the TT world champion in time trials (a 3x WC, no less). Contador did it, Armstrong did it (Ulrich and Indurain displayed the phenomena in opposite). Coupled with Froome's non-existant palmares (of note) as a junior or neo-pro, there is a host of reasons to doubt what is going on here.

Believe me, I want to believe in a clean Tour as much as anyone. But when a team dominates so (to a level where they can only be compared to US Postal) and a rider comes out of nowhere (absolutely nowhere prior to 2011 Vuelta) to dominate in the mountains AND the TT, you have to be objective in your look at the situation.

In reply to highcamp:


Is it possible that might have something to do with the fact that he was riding in Africa until he was 22?

In reply to highcamp:

They haven't dominated though. I stood at the side of the road Saturday and saw a strong ride but also the likes of Bertie and Valv Piti I unable to gap him.

On the Sunday I saw a blowing and knackered Team Sky. Froome kept the jersey because nobody else dared to attack, and more to point, his main competitors were riding clean, so unable to dominate like they may have done in the last.

In reply to highcamp:
Others might suggest that the fact he didn't come up through the traditional route of European amateur and semi-pro teams is a good sign.

I don't believe Froome could dope without Brailsford's knowledge, so if he is doping then it means that Wiggins did last year as well. And so did all of Britain's cyclists in the last 3 or 4 Olympics, where they have achieved similar dominance. This would not be comparable to what US postal did, it would be a whole new level above it. And of course getting their man to head up the UCI would be the final act of supremacy, far better than such a crude tactic as bribery.

In reply to Chris the Tall: I don't think people think its done and dusted, but that Froome is doing as well as he could be expected to up until now.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

The thing is, if you have built up an advantage over other teams in applying systematic and scientific principles to your training and technology, as British Cycling/Sky have, the last thing you want to do is to kick off a doping arms race. One reason I believe Sky are clean is that it is in their interest - they are better positioned to maintain a competitive advantage if the whole of the peloton is clean.

In reply to Phil1919: Agreed, anyway the forthcoming races in the Alps will determine this years winner same as most other years but with a 3 minute plus advantage Froome is obviously the man to beat.

Froome also had a parasite that was making his performance inconsistant - until it was picked up on and sorted out.

In reply to jfw: That's a bit harsh on Wiggins isn't it?

In reply to Gone for good:

+1

everybody saw how Sky fell apart on Sunday so i reckon their plan will be tire out the others, isolate Froome and then attack! attack! attack!

Hope so anyway - it'll make for a better race

In reply to Guy:

Zing!

In reply to Guy:

Yay! well done that man!

E

In reply to cragtyke:

Does anyone know how the double ascent of the Alpe d'Huez has been achieved? I thought it was a dead end at a ski resort, but maybe that's changed recently?

In reply to stewieatb:

Always been possible as a loop ride over the Col de Sarenne. Shit road though. Did it last week.
There could actually be some protests as its a protected area and the residents campaigned to not get the road fully resurfaced even though Alp d'Huez councel tried to do it.

E

In reply to stewieatb:

Zing indeed - but I reckon what Sky are missing this year is the strength of a super domestique (as Froome was last year, as Wiggo should have been this year).

I thought maybe Richie Port would be the guy - but isn't looking like it after the other day (unless it was a one off)

In reply to Bob Hughes:

Even if people attack, Froome has got such a cushion that he'll probably still be ok. Imagine if Contador suddenly finds his pre-ban legs and goes on the attack. Froome can ride at a steady pace and keep him within a minute or two, without risking his GC position. Valverde and Mollema are going to have to start chasing long before that otherwise they risk their own GC positions - allowing Froome to follow their wheels.

My prediction is that the third week is so hard that no one in the top 10 (except Quintana) will really attack for fear of blowing up the next day. Everyone will be racing to protect their current GC position, rather than to overtake Froome. Meanwhile Froome will gain even more time on Ventoux (although Schleck or D Martin will win) and the second TT.

In reply to cragtyke:

Any news on how Gerraint Thomas is fairing ? how much of a stint does anyone think he'll be able to put in if at all ?

In reply to GrahamD: http...

In reply to cragtyke:

It could all go wrong - if you're having a bad day then there's time to be made up - interesting stat from the other day is that if someone's struggling you can take a minute per km in the mountains or a minute per 10km on the flat. Witness Richie Porte going backwards the other day.

Anyway, now that I've seen how it's done, I'm doing a time trial tonight - and it will be even less pretty. Just so long as someone doesn't throw a jar of piss over me....... GS/438

In reply to Chris the Tall:


I couldn't help noting the comments by his team manager, saying that Cav originally thought it was water, but then realised what it was by the taste.

This can only mean that Cav has form in the field of piss drinking....

In reply to Chris Harris:
From Twitter:

Chris Froome condemns cycling fan for throwing urine at Mark Cavendish: "It leaves a nasty taste in the mouth"

In reply to cragtyke: I don't know why he's complaining - he got to wear yellow at Le Tour....

In reply to dale1968:

Thanks for that. I'm not sure whether it tells me whether he's likely to be able to take turns up front or not ?

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Sure does, there's nothing worse than sucking an unwashed cock !

In reply to GrahamD:He seems quite chipper, not so sure that would be the case if his life was hell on a stick...

In reply to dale1968:

Just wondered whether they'd put him up front to start with on a big climb ?

In reply to cragtyke:
Man bites dog...again

In reply to cragtyke:

I can see the headlines now.

"Cav pissed on in final sprint"

In reply to Chris Harris: very good

In reply to cragtyke:


Bit of a turn up for the books today. Wonder if it'll happen again tomorrow?

In reply to Quiddity: do you really think that all these other million euro teams do not apply science and systematic principals to there training? wake and smell the coffee

In reply to Chris the

not sure I agree that just because one rider dopes another does however I do believe tat that sky are inherently flawed and i certainly wouldn't dismiss the possibility that wiggins doped in one way or another.

In reply to highcamp: someone speaks sense re pro cycling on ukc!

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax: Really!

In reply to Pyreneenemec: really what for the guy moved off his line then cav jumped for the wheel it's racing!

In reply to Enty: that's not a proper chipper for a start it's not at eastway!

In reply to John Rushby: Contador, Valverde et al clean ??? maybe less juiced than previously but come on, evans managed 3rd in the giro despite di luca and santambrogio being charged up to the eyeballs on epo and yet where is he in the tour????

I watched some of the Cavendish profile on ITV4 last night, it struck how *hungry* he was a few years ago, his inner beast simply wouldn't allow anyone to come past him. Last night he looked a little bit surprised to be taken on the line. He's still one of the fastest people in the universe and I'm dying to see him back on top.

In reply to cragtyke:

Turning into a very interesting day.......

In reply to HIGHTOWER: Hat's off to Cav, still in the front group. Go on lad...

In reply to HIGHTOWER: so, boring flat transition stage, eh? Valverde loses 8minutes and Contador puts 60 seconds into Froome. Goes to show how vulnerable Froome is without the Sky Train. Richie Porte dropped off as weel - maybe to save himself for the hills? Sky lacking a lot of firepower.

In reply to Calder: BOOM! Stage win for Cav! He'll be a happy chap tonight

In reply to Bob Hughes: 25 wins to cav, a great record

In reply to Bob Hughes:

Has sending a strong team to the Giro spread Sky too thin for the Tour?

In reply to cragtyke:
Great day for Cav but even better for Bert - Froome will be kicking himself that he let them get away, but it shows just how weak Sky are this year. Micheal Rogers must be well pleased to give them a kicking !

Will Bert take yellow on Ventoux on Sunday, or will he avoid it for as long as possible.

Such a piti that valv is out of the running !

In reply to HIGHTOWER: I think having a rider with a broken pelvis and another in the hospital doesn't help...

In reply to Mr Fuller:

True, but they lost one to a broken leg last year.

In reply to carnie:

As an article in Cycling Weekly put it last week, some of the Europecar riders didn't know whether they were riding the Tour until about a week before it started. They French nationals were effectively used as a selection race.

Conversely, most Sky riders knew reasonably well what there season would be like from early in the year, and so could focus and peak appropriately.

Until recently some pro teams didn't even employ coaches. It's probably not difficult to dominate when that is the attitude of the opposition teams. Their dominance is starting to fade slightly now other teams are using similar long term strategies.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

I'm not so sure, it will be interesting to see how much today's break away took out of Bertie and other contenders in these days of tighter drug controls. GC contenders and their teams will be taking it especially easy tomorrow. A good day for large breakaway to contest stage win tomorrow. Will that include Cav?

In reply to cragtyke:

What a great day. Awesome racing.

In reply to HIGHTOWER:

They're definitely looking weak this year. Lacking a super domestique and every time any one of them puts in a big day hey're destroyed the next day, - except Froome.

In reply to Talius Brute:

Cav rode the perfect race today and fully deserved his win. 3 more to match Hinaults record but I think he will struggle to ever get past Mercks record. Froome will be a worried man tonight. Time will tell but Berty is starting to look good although after his showing in the Pyrenees he's still got a long way to go to get the maillot jeune

In reply to Bob Hughes:
To be fair to sky, Porte looked in better shape pre-tour than Froome did last year, and this line up did well in the Dauphine. Plus Sky were criticised for lack of Brits in their Giro team, which may have played a part.

But even given the extra workload due to elimination, withdrawal and injuries, I reckon something is up - Has anyone seen Lopez ? Obviously we won't find out till the end of the tour, but maybe a virus ? Obviously cynics would suggest "food poisoning" a la PDM

In reply to Gone for good:

Just when you think the gods had deserted Cav his (self made?) luck takes a turn for the better.

I'm sure he'll never forget that win. Hopefully it raises his spirits and he can muster up enough belief for the Paris stage. After the last couple of days he'd looked down and out.

Anyone think he will win the final stage? Kittle looks faster, Griepel's blowing hot and cold.

In reply to JLS:

I hope he will. Hopefully Kittels legs will have gone by then assuming he makes it through the Alps.

In reply to Gone for good:

I'm going to be on the Champs to see it happen. Was last year as well - greatest sporting event I've ever seen. Hopefully this year will be as good and will be Cav again.

In reply to JLS:

Cav fully deserved that win - great bit of opportunism. Shows he's more than just a sprinter too. OPQS will need to work hard for Cav to win Paris. It will take Kittel being held back or not getting a good lead out. Stage 12 showed that head to head Kittel has more pace.

In reply to cragtyke:

We are now going to see what Froome is truly made of.

I, for one, hope he pulls it off.

and if he does it will be a truly magnificent achievement ,given the way his team is misfiring. a better result than last year.

And would be one in the eye for whatever politics / hurdles he has had to negotiate earlier in the year.

Was trying to remember why Sky let Rogers leave. Am I right in thinking there was a slight cloud hanging over him ,a la Sean Yates?

Anyway,COME ON FROOMIE!

In reply to cragtyke:
Great riding by OPQS to lose kittel and the by Cav to get across when Saxo made their move, shows that he is far more than just a one trick pony. But in some ways it will give confidence to Kittel - it was an acceptance that he is the fastest sprinter this year.

Given Cav's incredible, immaculate record in Paris I'd still back him, but we'll see a lot of riders drop out or be eliminated in the next week, and those that make it will be in different shape to this week

In reply to andymac:

Yates didn't admit anything and retired from the sport for "personal reasons" or some such guff - he was both a team mate and DS for Armstrong, so that's not fooling anyone but doesn't help the sport.

I think Rogers did come clean to USADA - he was also an Armstrong team mate - and got a token ban and a P45 from sky.

In reply to Chris the Tall:


I think this is key, Cav has shown he can put in a big sprint immediately after the mountains and the stages just before Paris will be hard going.

In reply to cragtyke: think it will all go off on ventoux for the GC riders, so a steady ride today maybe with a breakaway.

Would also be great to see Cav get it in Paris. I think the green Jersey is Sagans to lose though which I don't think will happen unless something major happens to him.

In reply to Chris the Tall: Rogers was not on Armstrongs team and has never admited to his drug use, he says he left sky for a better contract.

In reply to andymac:
Could have been worse for Froome - at least BMC and Katusha contributed to the chase. If it had been left entirely to Sky, they would have lost far more...

With Valverde finishing so far back, it simplifies the task for Froome - mark the main climbing threat, Contador and Mollema. If Quintana attacks, he can hang back and see if Saxo or Belkin chase to defend their positions.

In reply to sleavesley:
Today might be good one for Sagan if they can shed the pure sprinters on the lumps. Can't see him losing green barring a fall...

In reply to betamonkey:

Bit of a day off for Froome today. I was actually quite relieved to see Sky riding together again today.

Well done Trentino

In reply to carnie:

I got the impression there was a bit of an end of season cull last year.

One of the guru`s departed as well ,having previously been on the US Postal

team .

Team Sky were cleaning out the cutlery drawer ,and everything had to be seen to be squeaky 'clean'.

In reply to carnie:

Yep looks liike my memory is at fault, although Rogers has admitted working with Michele Ferari, he claims it wasn't drug related. Either way great tactician and clearly a loss to sky

In reply to cragtyke:

Right, I'm off to The Ventoux. Best get there early.

E

In reply to Enty:

"Best get there early"

Laying out the carpet tacks?

In reply to Enty: Have a cracking day! and take some photos!

In reply to Enty:

Very jealous.... its going to be a great stage today. Enjoy!

In reply to cragtyke:

Armstrong-esque performance if ever there was one.

In reply to cragtyke: Another spectacular day, RP did an awsome effort, Quintana bluffed and finally cracked

In reply to highcamp: Meaning?

In reply to Andrew Smith:


Another fantastic day on The Tour. My heart would truly bleed if Froome was found to be guilty of doping, but until then, thanks Chris for giving us such a performance !

In reply to highcamp:
As I've said before, if Sky are doping they are doing so with a level of precision and thoroughness that Armstrong could only dream of.

Froome will be tested everyday whether he wins or not, and when his biological passport is examined any anomalies will identified. I hope they have been doing random tests on Bertie, because so far he hasn't finished in the top three on any stage.

Plus today's stage came between a quiet day and a rest day, so it was no surprise that the fittest rider came to the fore.

In reply to Pyreneenemec: It's a farce!

In reply to highcamp: In the comic it said that he was pushing the same wattage as Armstrong, and had been faster on timed rides Armstrong had done, would be unbelievably necky to make that common knowledge if he was doping..

In reply to cragtyke:
Breaking news - first positive of this years tour - Tyson Gay - which team does he ride for ?

In reply to Chris the Tall: Er he's a 100m sprinter as in atheletics!

In reply to Chris the Tall: wrong sport!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/athletics/23307913

In reply to carnie:

But he's a doper, so he must be a cyclist!

Or is it that if you're a cyclist, you must be a doper?

Ok I'm being facetious, because we now know that for a long time all the top riders were doping. And even the also rans. But if you believe that someone is doping simply because they win then why bother following the sport?

I wouldn't bet my house that Froome was clean, but by the same measure I wouldn't bet that Bertie, Valv or the other usual suspects were doping at the moment, or at least thus far.

Is this what clean racing looks like ? How would we know ?

In reply to Aly:

Now Asafa Powell has failed a test. Seems two Jamaican sprinters and two field athletes failed tests.

ALC

In reply to a lakeland climber:
I've been saying 'just because you run faster than Ben Johnson doesn't mean you're a doper" for the last few weeks. Might have to think of a different analogy now !

In reply to cragtyke: before today my favorite sporting moments were usain bolt smashing the world record 100 meters and button coming from the back to win the canadian g.p
froome has topped that today,so so impressive.
now its obvious why wiggins dint fancy his chances

In reply to Chris the Tall: i had the same stuff ben johnson took,it still takes me 20 seconds to run 100 meters,so its no all what you take hehe

Watched the tour on the lower slopes of Ventoux then managed to get down to a bar just in time to watch Froome nail the opposition. An awesome day.

In reply to cragtyke:

Come on Froomie.

super effort. great psychological move and performance with tomorrow being a rest day.

He will probably sleep in his oxygen chamber until half an hour before racing on Tuesday.

In reply to andymac:

Juat watched the highlights on catch up, Froome was excellent, what a ride today.

In reply to Christheclimber: I genuinely believe Sky to be clean so I want to know what was in the nose bag that Frome had half way up yesterday and where can I get some !

In reply to robandian:

I'm no cyclist, but spent Saturday with a few of the oognoscenti... and there was lots of dark muttering doping.

I so hope he's clean. It feels like there's more than his personal reputation at stake.

In reply to JJL:
Muttering about doping is to cycling cognoscenti what questioning people's achievements on the coarse-grained carboniferous sandstones of the Peak District and northern England is to UKC.

In reply to cragtyke: Radio 4's Today programmes Sports Desk managed to completely ignore Froome's fantastic stage win on the Ventoux yesterday. Too busy micro examining the Athletics positive tests. That's positive I suppose?

In reply to Pyreneenemec: A fantastic day for Froome and cycling. A tour leader who doesn't just hide in and rely on his team, but goes out with the intention of competing and winning stages. You've got to admire that.

I haven't seen a race leader like this since Lemond.

In reply to alan1961:

Er right.

No tour winner has sought to win road stages during the past 23 years. What?

No reliance on his team.... if that is what you think then I'm guessing that you didn't see the stage.

(Either that or you are Alan James)

In reply to woolsack:

Depends when you listened. The 7:30 sports news was almost entirely dedicated to Froome with a long report from Simin Brotherton.

Alan

In reply to Mike Highbury:

Very puzzled by this comment?

Alan

In reply to cragtyke: Froome's ride was awesome but so was Quintana's. Look at the climb as a whole and Froome was expertly paced (presumably at a practiced wattage) for 2/3 of the climb. Quintana did practically all of the climb on his own and nearly matched Froome.

In reply to a lakeland climber: The news regarding the two sprinters failing drug tests does make me wonder about the mentality at the top of certain speed/endurance sports. They obviously know the history of people getting caught, yet believe their system will be fool proof (until it isn't). Which then leads me to wonder if they (the pros who take PEDs) believe all the other athletes are on the juice and getting away with it, so they can as well, like a form of paranoia?

In reply to Guy:

According to Rob Hayles on the BBC, Froome spent a week practicing up Ventoux in May - this sort of diligence seem to be easily forgotten.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Very nicely put!

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax: Fairy nuff, I was listening from about 8.15

In reply to Bjartur í Sumarhús:

Without trying to turn this thread in to one of those facile internet discussions by amateurs about misuse of stats that Dave Brailsford seems to dislike, there does appear to be seem to be a genuine change in attitude in the peloton about PEDs.

During this year's Giro there were mutterings and some finger pointing in the peloton about a certain rider who later failed a drugs test - I forget his name - he'd put on about five kilos since last year but was now faster up the hills. This is somewhat different to the "omerta" style silence that existed just a few years ago: David Millar was distinctly cold-shouldered when he broke ranks about drugs.

Change won't happen overnight, it will probably take another generation when the current clean riders become director sportives in their own right. At the moment with seemingly unrepentent ex drug users such as Riis as managers there are still feet in the old world. I think the UCI needs a thorough clean out as well, too many of the top positions in that organisation are tainted.

Back to the actual racing: we've had two brilliant days racing in the last week with the breakaway on stage 13 - how did they let four team leaders get away? Showed that Team Sky need a bit more tactical nous. And yesterday's battle up Mt Ventoux. With a neutral's hat on, I hope that the alpine stages are as good and I'd like to see Saxobank attack and take some time back from Froome so that he has to attack in return but the route will have to pass a few MaccyD's to pep up Contador!

ALC

In reply to Chris the Tall:

The Tour is going how you might expect i.e. Team Sky are fantastic when it comes to set routines but throw in a curve ball i.e. the cross wind stage and they are not as effective because they haven't trained specifically for it. Cav said OPQ ride in those conditions alot and it showed. Contador has been at the receiving end of echelon racing and knew how to exploit it from that experience.

In reply to a lakeland climber:
>. will have to pass a few MaccyD's to pep up Contador!


It's been a great Tour so far and the final week looks set to be the cherry on the cake ! I was overjoyed yesterday when Froome managed to take all that time against Contador. I really can't stand the guy; he reminds me of Richard Virenque, who's pathetic pleas of innocence and being "doped" against his will filled the French media with comic material for many months.

In reply to Guy:

It also transpires that OPQS and Belkin shared a hotel the night before !

In reply to Pyreneenemec:

Froome's ride was phenomenal yesterday although I'd love to have seen Quintana put some time into him. That guy's got a serious pair of b*lls.

In reply to Pyreneenemec:
>My heart would truly bleed if Froome was found to be guilty of doping,

it's OK, it's all up to the diet

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jul/14/tour-de-france-team-sky-dietici...

In reply to cragtyke:

Not surprised by the athletics sprinters drugs failures at all, can't remember which of the anti doping scientists said he doesn't watch the 100 m as they're all juiced but his reasons convinced me.

Really happy to believe (and hopeful) Froome is clean, great riding. I think this ends any debate that he could have won last year and didn't which to me says a lot about his character.

I love it that it has been said that some of the modern drugs/doping techniques turn donkeys into racehorses, I like it even more that there seems to be a few people with shadowy pasts riding like donkeys and last year looked wrecked after attacking in some stages.

I loved it when contador got handed his arse.

I have felt a little down about a few of the older pros who are and have been great riders and clean must surely be feeling a little robbed.

Cheers

Toby

In reply to Toby_W:


I think it's easy to forget that last year not only was Wiggins going very well, but he won a lot of time in the two long TTs.

Wiggins beat Froome by nearly three and half minutes in the end, and took about 1:45 over the two TTs. I think Froome had a puncture(?) early on which lost him about 90 seconds, but even without that I suspect he may have struggled to take that extra time out of Wiggo. The only real chance would have been the Peyragudes finish where, even if he'd been set free to catch Valverde he wouldn't have put more than a minute into the big names - as it was Sky only put 20 seconds into Van den Broeck and Nibali on that stage.

Had Froome been team leader though, I'd agree he could have probably won it.

In reply to Aly: There was also one stage in the mountains last year where Froome waited for Wiggo a couple of times to pull him up the mountain.

In reply to cragtyke:

I'd like to pose a simple question to the gallery, and ask that you challenge your objectivity (honestly challenge it) in answering:

If Froome wasn't racing under a British racing license, and instead was a stars & stripes American, would you call foul on this year's performance? What if he was Italian, or Spanish? Before trying to play devil's advocate and saying "of course I'd believe he was clean, I'm 'color blind' when it comes to nationality"… consider some points of data -

- this rider, Rider X we can call him (again, NOT British), had virtually zero results as a pro until one notable 2nd place 2 yrs ago (nothing else that entire year either).

- this year, however, he is dominating almost every single stage race he has entered - in the mountains and in the TT. And by dominating, it is akin to Armstrong/Tour or Contador/Giro levels of dominance. Similarly, he was near these levels of dominance last year but restricted by team politics (again, one year after his first notable result, after 4 yrs of nothing at all).

- his climb of Aix 3 Domaines this year was the 3rd fastest ever, just :07 sec slower than Armstrong in 2001 (when Armstrong obliterated Ullrich... and when, according to Tyler Hamilton, Armstrong failed an EPO test at the Tour de Suisse 3wks earlier (which was later covered up)). [Also of note, Rider X rode AX3 this year faster than Armstrong rode it in '03.]

- Rider X's climb of Aix 3 Domaines this year exhibited an estimated VAM of ~1715 m/h, at around 6.3W/kg (estimated). Typically a red flag in post-Armstrong/Contador/Bruyneel days.

- 3 stages after the above performance, Rider X almost beats the 3x World Time Trial Champion on a *flat* course, finishing into a headwind. His nearest competitors with climbing prowess are near 2min back.

Taken together, from a Spanish cyclist on a Spanish team, would you call the above rider's performance into question?


'… the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the skeptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles.' - Lance Armstrong

In reply to highcamp: Has the testing routine not improved since, and in light of the Armstrong revelations?

In reply to Papillon:

It definitely has, which is great. As history has shown us, however, the tests are typically years behind the cutting edge dopers.

Remember, aside from the 1999 steroid positive (for which Armstrong's doctor produced a post-dated prescription for saddle sores), Armstrong NEVER officially failed a test... and he was the most tested man in all of sports.

The tests are just behind the times. It sucks, but it's true.

In reply to highcamp:

A few of your notes are flawed as has been discussed on various bike pages and the analysis you site.

But to your question, no my opinion would be the same and would remain so until he had his 1999 re test or puerto or clen + plasticisers.

With anybody (not just cyclists) I would always hope for the best but not be to surprised by human failure.

I may be odd though as I work in academia so am surrounded by people of all nations.

Cheers

Toby

In reply to highcamp: he's not the most tested, he just said that.

Cheers

Toby

In reply to Toby_W:

Ok, Toby, take out the VAM, the watts, any # of the tests Armstrong did or did not take.... take out everything you contest, the story doesn't change much at all.

In reply to Toby_W: Who has been tested more than Armstrong? It seemed to make logical sense: cycling is the sport with the highest frequency of testing and at racers stage winners are always tested.

In reply to Arms Cliff:

I do admit my quote of Armstrong being the most tested is anecdotal, and likely just during the Tour weeks at best. So I don't have hard numbers. Armstrong didn't race much outside of the Tour, so he didn't get as many post race podium tests as, say, a Boonen. But outside of cycling, I think swimmers get tested a lot, as do speed skaters for some reason - even though there isn't much money in either of them. Track and field also has a ton of testing. Compared to the others, cycling def has the most money it (both the teams, and the personal wealth of the top players) so it's easier for them to beta-test methods, buy testing machines, pay off officials to give them forewarning of random tests, etc.

In reply to highcamp:
Brailsford has said today he will release all training data etc to WADA for examination by their experts, but will not release it publically.

Which seems fair enough to me, and far more transparency that we have seen in the past. We've all heard the denials in the past so there's very little they can say that isn't almost a quote from LA.

Why not release it publically ? Simple - because then the data will be cherry picked by experts and tin-foil hat wearers and someone will claim it's proof of cheating with the same approach as claiming that the moon landings were faked.

I don't give a monkeys if some website or other can claim that such and such a value represents a red flag - just because you are good doesn't mean you are doping. Comparing the climb with 10 years ago is very flawed - different stage in the race, different approach, wind might be different, road surface might be different, hell even helmets will make a difference (10 years ago, they didn't wear them on climbs).

Jingoistic perhaps, but both the US and Spain have history of covering up positives and evidence etc, whereas GB tended to take an ultra-strict approach. And Team sky did evolve from the Olympic cycling program, which concentrated on track cycling, partly because of how dirty road cycling was at the time. They were also very dominant, but their results remain untarnished.

I know Sky has quite a big budget - though not as big as Katusha's travel budget! - but they'd have to have a huge slush fund to be running the sort of super-organised doping ring that would leave absolutely no evidence, no disgruntled ex-riders, ex-soigneurs, ex-doctors etc etc.

I witnessed a great performance by Froome and his team on the slopes of Ventoux yesterday.

All the chatter about Sky using PED's without any shred of evidence really makes me angry. Froome trains hard, has a brilliant intelligent team framework behind him and as a consequence is riding like no one else this year.

I guess people find it hard to comprehend super human performance without the aid of illicit substances but strangely, we as a community of climbers, readily accept the superhuman achievements of Ondra without question and yet on this forum pundits will readily question the achievements of Froome. I guess Froome and his team are tainted by the whole Armstrong era history and that, sadly, is unavoidable.

Ultimately the truth is only known by Froome himself, but if I was Froome and was clean (which I believe) then I really wouldn't give a monkeys about what the pundits, the press or anyone for that matter really thought of me as I would know I was the best man on the day!

I really hope Sky can hold it together for a very tough final week and deliver Froome to the top step of the podium.

In reply to highcamp:

True, and it does look suspicious, but remember that this is a rider that was in Africa, not europe in his early days, so will have less of a record. It's also been stated that he had some form of parasite/virus that was causing inconsistent results


This didn't seem to be a problem when Brad dominated in a similar fashion in the build up to last year's tour.


I'm comfortable that in 12 years nutrition, training, high altitude sleeping, bike design might have improved performances to this level. (Anyone noticed how virtually all sports records get broken with time?)


Quite possibly, but then this doesn't account for other factors (wind in particular)

True, but the guy's got form here - what was the result of the Olympics time trial?

Quite possibly - and it does call froome's performances into question, I am uneasy about those accelerations yesterday - I've never seen anything like that. That doesn't make him quilty though, and I struggle a lot more with the idea that Wiggins doped last year. The fact that froome was almost this good last year, implies it was going on under Wiggo's watch, and I don't think he would tolerate it.


Interesting you bring this up... I was thinking about this yesterday - I don't think I've seen any miracles in cycling recently - not like we used to - it seems now that with the scientific approach and a lack of drugs we just don't get those amazing comebacks (which in someways is a bit of a shame!)

In reply to highcamp:
At the start of Armstrong's time there was no test for EPO or HGH and it would appear that they were always one step ahead of the labs in knowing how to mask things.

But he did test positive in 99, gave suspicious results in 2001 and we still don't know whether his biological passport results from 2009 were positive or not.

However one of his main tricks was avoiding random out-of comp testing.

Despite people using the term "Sky Postal" it should be clear to anyone that there modus operandi is quite different and they are not using the same methods he did. This is not proof that they aren't doping, but if they are they are doing so at a vastly more sophisticated manner and so getting Cookson to head the UCI would be an act of evil genius !

In reply to highcamp:

To those suggesting Froome is doping. If he is, then the way I see it there are two possibilities.

a) Froome is doping on his own (without Brailsford or anyone on the team's knowledge)
or
b) Froome is doping with Brailsford's knowledge (implying that basically everything Brailsford says about doping is a lie, and presumably doping is totally systematic in team Sky and implying that probably Wiggins was doped last year)

I personally don't see either scenario as particularly credible, but am curious which you think is more likely to be the case.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

That's the key factor - Brailsford & track cycling in general have a cleaner reputation. Is the testing regime more independent - perhaps host nation Olympic/championship testing rather than UCI?

Maybe it's just something in the Manchester water - Brailsford seems to be the Alex Ferguson of cycling.

In reply to Bob Hughes:

Wasn't that the mountain-top finish at Peyragudes?

In reply to cragtyke:

Well, it seems I got my answer. Thanks.

On a personal note, I was screaming at the television in 2011 for Sky to let Froome fly. Same last year. I just like the way the guy races. I suspect that's why a lot of people support him - he attacks. Wiggo, for better or worse, raced via the Indurain method. Effective, sure, but for us spectators it's boring. So, yes, I was fully behind Froome, even this season.

I never really cared for Armstrong. But I did follow Hincapie a lot. I liked that he raced classics... above all Paris-Roubaix. He represented America there (I'm American, in case you couldn't guess), and that was great because it got American spectators to notice other parts of cycling outside of the Tour. But in 2005 when Hincapie came 2nd to Boonen in PR and then won the queen's stage in the mountains at that year's Tour, I became suspicious. It sucked, but in this age of specialization it was just too odd. Same when Contador beat Cancellara in a time trial ('09 TdF).

Anyway, it would be great if Froome is clean and it stands the test of time. And that Sky has figured out a training + nutrition formula that represents a serious evolution in sports.

For me, the Tour is boring this year (outside of the sprints, which are outstanding since there isn't one singular dominant sprinter [Renshaw and Cav together again next year = ouch]). I'm now looking forward to Cancellara and the world championships. Thanks for the discussion.

Cheers.

In reply to elsewhere:


Bollocks he is !

You can listen to DB - here for example - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/23316712 - and think here's an intelligent bloke with a level of integrity and honesty rarely seen in sport, rather than wanting to kick in the TV screen as AF tries to manipulate the referees again.

I'll add that I do believe DB when he says his aim is to get more people in Britain cycling at all levels, which makes the roads safer for me.

So when I hear them talking about doping, it's not Wiggo, Cav or Froome that I believe, it's Brailsford.

In reply to highcamp:'For me, the Tour is boring this year', are you drunk?

Some background reading on Froome, if you're interested:
http://www.kenyacycling.org/chris-froome-rider-profile/
http://m.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jun/22/chris-froome-tour-de-france
And an interesting article about African cycling with some info about Froome's power output and endurance ability from UCI testing:
http://www.esquire.co.uk/culture/features/3828/the-tour-de-frances-african-...
Hardly an overnight sensation.

In reply to highcamp: I totally take your points and was letting myself get distracted.. My answer is the same to your excellent question.

Armstrong was tested about 263 times so quite a lot of people were tested more...... He may have tested himself an awful lot to make sure he was safe to take those tests and just got a bit muddled with his PR all those years

Cheers

Toby

In reply to Bob Hughes:

Good - I've only got 2 bets this year; him and Fuglsang to finish top 6

In reply to High camp

Short answer - I think we have shown that with Cadel and Ryder that a nonBrit can win a GT and not be called into suspicion.

Anyhoo, we are about to another Tour winner. The obviously suspect winner of the Tour of Turkey has tested positive, meaning we get a black African winner, which is great for the sport. Some great stuff happening cycle wise in Africa at the moment.

In reply to John Rushby: yes, if the Kenyans etc start riding young and ride like they run it could make for some amazing mountain stages and racing.

Yes I also think Evans is clean and also Sastre were clean.

Cheers

Toby

In reply to Guy:

Yep. The Columbian Progeria Goblin is going to have Contador worried and will be well worth keeping an eye on for the future, and the rest of the tour. Amazing solo break and nearly held it to the end, while still taking chunks out of the rest of the field. Awesome.

In reply to highcamp:

What about tennis?

In fact think about it. Tennis. And as others have mentioned, the Spanish Disposition.
And don't you think that really muscular tennis players look bizarre?

In reply to Fredt: Interesting, if slightly partial, blog here:
http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.co.uk/

In reply to cragtyke:
Interesting stuff on Froome's training methods - http://gu.com/p/3hb4m/tw - not that this will silence the cynics who seem to believe that no matter how hard you train, and how intelligently you pace yourself, you must still be doping.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

But it's not interesting at all , is it?

It gives no useful information on training save that it is very hard and certainly none that would satisfy even the most gentle of critics.

In reply to Toby_W:
>

I hope Bolt isn't.. and believe he's clean, but you never know. Froome looks in great shape, skinny as a rake and is clearly peaking at the right time. Sky must be clean, you'd hope so.

But Paula Ratcliffe dominated the marathon and even froze all samples for future testing, noone touches her even now, so you can be at the top clean.

In reply to IainRUK: When I read this report http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/10180116/Asafa-Powel...

"Police from a specialist drug and food safety unit found around 50 boxes and vials containing medicines and pills, according to Italian press reports. "

and

"Police were “surprised” at the quantity of drugs they found in the hotel room because it was “disproportionate” to the needs of one athlete, the Ansa news agency reported."

I thought to myself it's only a matter of time before the whole Jamaican team is implicated (probably including Bolt). Clearly this story has legs, hopefully it's not as bad as it sounds.

In reply to Bjartur í Sumarhús:

The good old days: www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2006/jan/27/cycling.cycling

In reply to Mike Highbury:
Erm - yes it is


When Froome attacked I texted my (roadie) mate to say "Froome is pedalling like a mountain biker" - i.e. very high cadence for a short burst, but staying in the saddle. At least, that's the way that I ride my MTB, but it's only in recent years that I have found that is the most efficient way for me. Now we have an explanation for that, along with a insight to the fact that there training rides aren't simply a case of going up the mountain and back down again.

Sky brought Kerrison in to give a fresh perspective on coaching - their claim is that coaching cycling was lagging well behind other sports (and overly dependent upon drugs). If this is true, then as cycling cleans up it, Sky will be able to exploit the advantage of having a head start in coaching.

Or alternatively it's a massive conspiracy with some as-yet unknown, untestable super drug. Maybe having bilharzia has strengthened Froome's system ? Should it be on the banned list ?

In reply to IainRUK:

I really hope Bolt is clean, I believe he is, but I though Gay probably was as well. A dirty Bolt would kill track and field athletics, the economics of which appear to be built around him and almost entirely him.

In reply to cragtyke:

I'm trying to watch it online (illegally, but then I can't get it legally in the country I'm in at the moment) on http://www.day.to/watch/live/streaming/online/free/en-vivo/m2/euro/july-07-...

This is Eurosport. With a lot of effort I can get rid of all the overlying windows except for one where some bastard has placed a transparent white panel over the controls so I can see and hear, but can't increase the window size or volume.
I'm curious? What do you see? And any ideas?

In reply to The New NickB:

I think you are right.. track athletics is in a bad shape. Bolt is the show piece right now, but also because he had genuine challengers..

I think it's in a mess. Its hard to see how he's not somehow implicated, or knew of what was going on though. I hope he's clean personally but even if he knew about the others I'll be dissapointed with him because its still a huge amount if damage.

In reply to Mike Highbury: In comparison to the ones that have gone before!!!

In reply to cragtyke:just off to watch it live on ITV4, It's going to be entertaining

In reply to Chris the Tall:


Hahahaha... have you looked up what Bilharzia is? It does anything but!

In reply to MikeTS:

I wouldn't touch that link after your description of the transparent panel over the viewing screen, that could well be a massive button for you to give permission for something to install on your pc without your knowledge.

In reply to MikeTS: Have you tried any of the other links from steephill? Sometimes you need to set it to full screen for the ads to disappear.

In reply to Aly:

Yeah, that was my problem, I couldn't find for a while how to close the window covering the full-screen control

well I got ads for Russian girls and some other lady showing a lot of cleavage! I had to persuade my wife I what I really wanted was to watch a bike-race on our living room big TV.
Then I found the close window button, you have to hit the button dead centre. And got good viewing of the TDF
I'm well protected by firewalls but thanks for advice, will run my malware stuff now.

In reply to cragtyke:

Great work by Froome and Porte shutting down all the attacks from Bert. Then excellent chasing back on after the crash.

Looked from the air like Bert went down and Froome had to go onto the grass to avoid him on the deck. Both seem fine. I'm amazed the group didn't back off though - I thought there were Rules about what the group does when the Maillot Jaune has a crash or mechanical.

In reply to stewieatb: Brilliant work from Porte.

Think there was an ironic thumbs up gesture by Contador to Quintana regarding the unwritten rule.

In reply to nrhardy:

Ahh yes. I saw that on replay, wondered what it was about.

In reply to stewieatb:
Does that apply to crashes as well as mechanicals? I'd have thought that in general (if not in this case) crashing on fast descents was part of the game - knowing how hard you can push it on a descent without coming off is part of the skill of racing, and sitting up to wait for someone who's overconfident and crashes would make no more sense than sitting up to wait for someone who's overcautious and drops off the pace.

I only saw text commentary on what happened today so can't comment there...

In reply to cragtyke:

I thought the group did hold back... they didn't wait for them, but they also weren't going full gas, and no one attacked. Thought the thumbs up from Contador was a genuine thank you for not buggering off.

Was good to see them descending like that, and I wish the coverage of descents was a bit better, as I rarely feel I get a true sense of the descents. I also think on screen speed and gradient readings they have on the camera bikes at the Vuelta should be used (for ups and downs) in the TDF. (I realise today was tricky as they had to show riders crossing the line)

Great win by Costa too

In reply to Ramblin dave:

That's what I think as well. Mechanicals e.g. Cadel's puncture going over tacks last year and Wiggins got the peloton to sit up, that's fair as it wasn't Evan's fault.

However, Contador made a mistake on a corner and lost control so why on earth should everyone wait for him??? It was his choice to hammer the descent.

Also a bit disappointed with Froome's comments regarding Contador attacking on the descent.. if you think its not safe then hang back, its your choice.

It is a race at the end of the day!!!

In reply to cragtyke:

Just uploaded a few shots to our Veloventoux Facebook page - you can like us if you want

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151719458151100.1073741827.1872...

E

In reply to Enty: Not bad having it run right past your front door!

In reply to minimike:

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger !

In reply to Paul035:


Wiggins was right to neutralise things last year - sabotage by external agents shouldn't affect the race - but that ought to be the exception. People want to see racing and drama, not the race stooping every time someone has a mechanical. And crashes are avoidable (says the guy who crashed twice in a 100 yards last night!) so that is part of the skillset in winning a race. Drugs did help LA go across that field - still one of the great clips in recent years.

Contador was trying to take time out of Quintana by hammering the descent, therefore he shouldn't complain at the response when he crashed.

In reply to maxsmith:

Actually I think he was trying to drop Froome. He's been pretty clear throughout the race that he's racing for the yellow jersey. And I reckon fair play to Bertie for spicing the tour up. He's not let up on Froome all Tour even with a 4 minute deficit. The thumbs up thing seems pretty minor.

In reply to cragtyke:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/quintana-i-didnt-attack-because-contador-cr...

In reply to Bob Hughes: I take your point but he was trying to take time out of everyone in the group, meaning Quintana et al had every right to capitalise on his mistake.

And (despite my dislike of Contador) I agree that it is refreshing he is trying everything he can to shake up the standings.

If the forecast rain hits 2x ADH on Thursday that stage could be carnage...

In reply to maxsmith:

I was on the Col de Manse yesterday and got a great view as the race came by, although it was just before things got interesting and I had to really watch the highlights when I got home to get the full picture.

The spectacle is great, but TV really is the best place to watch the race!

In reply to maxsmith:

I agree, especially on the descent from the Col de Sarenne. That is one of the steepest descents, with tightest bends, I have done. It also had pretty dodgy surface when we did it but I imagine that has improved.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax: Didn't get Froomes complaints at Contadors style of descent.. Contador has to take risks. Or was I missing something as I 've only been reading reports.

In reply to IainRUK:

No, I think the general consensus is that Froome didn't have much to complain about. I've always understood the first rule of descending in a group is to watch your own line, just don't follow the wheel in front precisely in case they end up going off the edge. Froome was tucked in behind Bertie and paid the consequence.

But he was probably pumped full of adrenaline still after a shaky descent and interview minutes after crossing the line so probably just lashed out at the first thing that crossed his mind.

In reply to IainRUK: imo the most likely way Froome will lose the yellow jersey is if he crashes out..

Contador is trying to force him to take risks, and is well within his rights to do so.

At the end of the day if Froome thinks Alberto is descending too fast, he doesn't have to follow him...

In reply to Enty:

Liked! Looked like a lot of fun! We hope to go over one day when the kids are a bit older!

In reply to yorkshireman:


Yup... I think the post match/game/race interview is pretty useful to the media for spicing things up a bit.

In reply to cragtyke:
It seemed unfair to me that contador crashed then he let Porte draft him back to the pack. Would have been interesting if he had got left on his own as to whether he'd have got back or not

In reply to cragtyke:

Got to be one of the most embarassing ways to ruin your tour:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/peraud-crashes-during-tour-de-france-tt-rec...

In reply to Papillon:

Aye.. maybe.. saw he also used Twitter though..

But you see it in football.. though people seem more forgiving of Froome than footballers, especially managers, who say stupid things when a camera is put in front of them when they are off their heads of adrenalin...

In reply to balmybaldwin:

far from embarassing the guy is still riding with a possible cracked collarbone, full respect to the rider

In reply to lost1977:

He has come off again, same shoulder, ouch!

In reply to The New NickB:

just seen the footage of the second crash

In reply to lost1977:
Another extraordinary day of racing and another phenonomal performance from Froome.

In reply to cragtyke: Contadors face at the finish was a picture

In reply to dale1968:

Agreed, looking at Bertii's face as Froome crossed the line was a picture perfect.

In reply to cragtyke:

Looks like it could be wet on the descent of Alp d'Huez tomorrow which will make things interesting

https://www.google.co.uk/search?safe=images&source=android-browser-sugg...

In reply to cragtyke:
1) peraud - should he have been allowed to continue with a broken collarbone ? Similar concerns to Thomas, Martin and King earlier in the race, it's not just the initial injury, but what happens if you crash again

2) I know bike changes are legal, but should they be ? Or rather, should your spare bike be set up the same as the first ?

3) Another stunning performance by Froome. One things for sure, he isn't appeasing the doubters by taking it easy and hiding his full strength. Clean ? Or very confident that he'll never be caught ? Have to say I think it's the former.

Of course the real tests are still to come, and much depends on how well they all recover.

In reply to Chris the Tall:


More to the point, should the mechanics be allowed to give them a push start? If they crash, fair enough its like sticky bottles and sneaky drafting behind cars, but when you choose to change as a tactic I'm surprised nothing was said today.

Very gutted for Peraud -it looks like he skidded on some Greenedge graffiti painted on the road, or maybe that was coincidence?

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Swapping bikes is bollocks.
Always used to piss me off in the 3-Peaks Cyclo Cross.
One guy back in the 80's swapped his cross bike for a track bike with no brakes or gears, carried it up and down Whernside then swapped back.

E

In reply to yorkshireman:

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/who-needs-doping-most-creative-t...

i had heard about some of these stories before but this article is well worth reading, don't think any other event has such quality cheating

In reply to Enty:

Why stop there, surely a plastic kids tricycle would be lighter?

In reply to Enty:

I thought that, but then wondered if the officials feel they have no choice, i.e. teams would just come out with some pre-arranged made up mechanical problem and swap the bike under that pretence. At least this way everyone is in the same boat.

It would be far better if they insisted that whatever style of bike a rider starts the stage on he completes it on.

From Froome's interview I gathered that the decision wasn't just based on the better aerodynamics of a TT bike, but also on the fact that on his TT bike he could push a far higher gear than the one used in the first half for the climbs, making him much faster coming off the descent into town.

It all starts to get a bit too formula 1 if you let folk change equipment half way through a race to suit conditions

In reply to Paul035:

Imagine trying that stage on Boris Bike

That very nice man, Laurens ten Dam has put his stuff up on Strava

http://app.strava.com/activities/67839844#1306167357

A 45 mile warm up ride in the morning before yesterday's 106 mile stage!

In reply to cragtyke:

Thursday's stage should be interesting. With so many press agencies around the world publishing articles calling Froome's performance into question - e.g., making note that if he won these stages by a handful of seconds that nobody would really think much of it - I wonder if Sky will take this into account in how they let Froome race. Maybe hold Froome back, have him ride defensive and/or win by just a small margin (sandbag it until the final switchback up the Alpe, give RP a win, etc). Or, if they are fully confident in his 'pane e acqua' performance, let him fly and push out the same wattage and VAM that he did on AX3 or the upper slopes of Ventoux. We shall see.

In reply to cragtyke:
Seeing reports on twitter that Sky have released Froome's climbing data for the last two years to l'Equipe, whose expert concludes there is nothing abnormal.