/ Early Warning MUMC at Froggatt Sept 2013

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Natalyaaa - on 10 Jul 2013
I know its a little early, but...

Hi all. Manchester Uni Mountaineering Club will be holding our first Freshers' meet at Froggatt edge again on September 22nd. This will be a coach of 49, plus a few ex members in cars. I realise there have been many discussions about this in the past, and this is a relatively large number to bring to a classic crag. We have considered moving the meet, but haven't really found any more venues big enough, or with a decent pub that can accommodate our social meal afterwards. It's also necessary to take this number as this is how we get our money for the year, to spend on smaller trips and minibuses. However, we plan on managing this large number in the following ways:

1. Splitting the group up across Froggatt, Curbar and Baslow. This allows us to send around 17 people to each crag, which is obviously far less noticeable. These will then be split into smaller leader-second-fresher(s) groups, of around 4 depending on leader availability. No top ropes will be set up.

2. Ensuring the majority of freshers are in rock shoes, so as to cause minimal damage to routes, by having a spare shoe amnesty within the club. Any donations welcome!

3. Ensuring leaders do not take groups on 2 and 3 starred routes, where possible. We'll try and make sure our leaders find suitable quiet routes. We'll also try to spread out along the crag, not congregate at the first buttress we come to.

4. Leaders will ask their groups to pick up any litter in the area before leaving the crag, whether it is their own or not.

My aim is to manage the group in accordance with the BMC guidlines set out here https://www.thebmc.co.uk/modules/RAD/viewcrag.aspx?id=587 and I think these action points concur with the guidlines, where ever possible.

Hopefully I've addressed any issues or concerns anyone may have with the meet taking place here, but if I haven't, please feel free to raise any more!

If anyone has any suggestions of alternative crags which provide the space and facilities needed (place to park coach, large pub, large number of routes at lower and higher grades) please feel free to say.

Many thanks guys,

Natalya.
deacondeacon - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Natalyaaa: sounds pretty reasonable to be honest although as another recommendation. Dovestone tor has 3 star routes, plenty of climbing at all grades and a pub with a large car park for a bus. It's usually a very quiet crag too.
NorthernGrit - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Natalyaaa:

Here we go again and all that but one aspect of your post does trouble me:

"It's also necessary to take this number as this is how we get our money for the year, to spend on smaller trips and minibuses."

What makes you believe you have a right to make money in this way to fund your club and smaller trips? Does any of this money get put back to anywhere other than your club or the local area?

Not flaming or trolling, genuine questions.
toad - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to NorthernGrit:

Again, not a criticism as such, but is this a common funding model for other university climbing clubs? - get lots of punters on the early trips who are unlikely to come again and who will pay over the odds, and use their money to subsidise subsequent trips by club regulars.

Are smaller group trips now unsustainable? I find that slightly hard to believe, but you have a better picture of the finances of your club.
Chris the Tall - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to toad:
> (In reply to NorthernGrit)
>
> Again, not a criticism as such, but is this a common funding model for other university climbing clubs? -

I wouldn't call it a funding model, but I suspect it is the usual way of things for all types of university club. New students always join more clubs at the freshers fair than they will find they have time for. Keep the fees low, let people have a chance at something, but inevitably numbers soon dwindle from 60 to 6.
hairyRob on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to toad:
All university sports clubs have this as a big chunk of their funding. I spent 3.5 years running two different clubs and we used the dropout money to help subsidise xmas meals, end of year BBQ's, an annual club awards dinner and to pay for a chunk of your diesel costs over the year.
Flashy - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to NorthernGrit:
> What makes you believe you have a right to make money in this way to fund your club and smaller trips?

Probably the fact that outdoor centres and climbing instructors do exactly the same for profit ;)

Why would they NOT have the right to enjoy the freedom of the hills?

Not all university clubs work this way. I was fortunate enough to go to a university with a very long history of supporting sport, and had used that long history to build up the money to extend this support to finances. We made almost no money on the freshers' meet.

I was always a bit surprised that other clubs spent their money on subsidising trips, as our trips were self-funding; everyone payed their own share of petrol and accommodation and food so it cost the club nothing beyond the time that went into organisation. All the money the club got from the university went on building up racks, ropes and guidebooks which were lent out for free every weekend and over the summer.
Offwidth - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Natalyaaa:

Good effort. If only all clubs and groups planned like this. Despite the advice above, Dovestones isn't such a good choice for a big group including lots of beginners in September.
deacondeacon - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Offwidth: why not?
toad - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to hairyRob and Chris: As I said, not a criticism, I suppose I was a bit suprised that it had gone from a happy bonus for end of term (when I was in a uni club) to an intrinsic and apparently critical part of the annual budget
Rachel Slater - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Natalyaaa: Why is everyone making negative assumptions about a budget they haven't seen?

toad - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Rachel Slater:
> (In reply to Natalyaaa) Why is everyone making negative assumptions about a budget they haven't seen?

"It's also necessary to take this number as this is how we get our money for the year, to spend on smaller trips and minibuses"

Not making assumptions, it's what was said!
Ramblin dave - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to toad:
I don't know about Manchester, but a lot of unis dole out cash to societies based on the number of members they've got on the books, so it's quite good to get a lot of people signed up for that reason too. Not to mention that the more people you get on your freshers' meet the more of them are likely to stick around and the more fun and interesting your club will be.

In any case, it's a bit sad that MUMC have put a lot of thought into minimizing the issues associated with a big freshers' meet (and I think to an extent the fact that they're aware that there are potential issues and are trying to minimize them will make a massive difference even if people want to quibble over specific choices that they've made) and all people can do is moan about their finances.

Thanks to Natalya et al for putting the thought in.
xplorer on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Rachel Slater:

Because they love it Rachel, makes them feel big and strong. It's consistent with UKC.

The club are doing exactly as asked by the BMC, and the posters on here are just try cause trouble because the club will take up a crag for a day.

A crag that's for anybody to use, is on public land, and they have probably never climbed there.

Their on the menapause
toad - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to xplorer:
> (In reply to Rachel Slater)
>

>
> Their on the menapause

And you're an idiot who can't spell, and more pertinently,an idiot who needs to give some thought to the kind of insults they use.
teflonpete - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to toad:
> (In reply to NorthernGrit)
>
> Again, not a criticism as such, but is this a common funding model for other university climbing clubs? - get lots of punters on the early trips who are unlikely to come again and who will pay over the odds, and use their money to subsidise subsequent trips by club regulars.

Let's face it, it's a common funding model for clubs in general. One of the climbing clubs I belong to has an annual membership of around 60 to 80, of which around 25 actually participate in club events and meets.

Freshers aren't necessarily paying over the odds for a meet such as that in the OP, it might just be volume of numbers and a small profit margin that helps swell the club's coffers.
teflonpete - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Natalyaaa:

Thanks for the heads up, looks like you've given serious thought to minimising the impact of a large meet.
toad - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to teflonpete: Fair enough, I wasn't criticising it (contrary to what mr xtreem thinks) It was more that I was suprised that clubs had to use this kind of model to operate, rather than it being a bonus.
xplorer on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to toad:

MEN-a-pause

What's up toad? What problem have you got with the group going climbing. What about there money affairs? Please tell, I want a laugh.
xplorer on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to toad:

"In reply to teflonpete: Fair enough, I wasn't criticising it (contrary to what mr xtreem thinks) It was more that I was suprised that clubs had to use this kind of model to operate, rather than it being a bonus."

In what way would that effect you? There are too many so called climbers, who want nothing more than to interfere with other people. Obviously this happens in personal life too. How f*cking boring.
r0x0r.wolfo - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to toad:
> (In reply to teflonpete) Fair enough, I wasn't criticising it (contrary to what mr xtreem thinks) It was more that I was suprised that clubs had to use this kind of model to operate, rather than it being a bonus.

I'm not sure of they have to, just that each person would pay more for the later trips.
Depends on who's in the club and how much spare cash they have. Usually the surplus is the membership fees of people who come once/never show up at all rather than overcharging for the freshers trip. It's usually a reasonable price.
r0x0r.wolfo - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Natalyaaa: Thanks for the heads up and for being responsible.
Bobling - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Natalyaaa:

Uni Freshers' Meets threads in early July? It's a world gone mad I tell you, July has already been reserved for midge and weather threads. Please dismantle this thread and put it back up again in mid-August when the UKC thread allocation committee have timetabled it.
JJL - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Natalyaaa:

Great post/ Thank you.

Have a good time.
Offwidth - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to deacondeacon: long steep slog up damaged paths, more loose rock, conditions less reliable, more likely to annoy people trying to avoid such groups and plan B options fewer
NorthernGrit - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Flashy:

Probably the fact that outdoor centres and climbing instructors do exactly the same for profit ;)


..and often get criticised for doing so eg Harrogate Climbing centre and foredale.

Yes, the op seems to have gone about this in the best way possible, but the fact is, many people think that taking very large groups 'into the outdoors' (in whatever guise) is against the whole point of what 'the outdoors' experience is. It's no different to 50 odd office workers trudging their way round the three peaks and a lot of people don't like that either.

Hope you have fun though. I am perfectly capable of raising concerns without being an arse about it.
jkarran - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to NorthernGrit:

> What makes you believe you have a right to make money in this way to fund your club and smaller trips? Does any of this money get put back to anywhere other than your club or the local area?

Where does 'right' come into it? Nobody has a gun to their head, they pay to join a club to give it a go. Some stay and get involved, some climb occasionally ,some drift away and do other things... Big deal!

jk
Simon Caldwell - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to deacondeacon:
> why not?

I and many others avoid the honeypot crags in Freshers season. We're not going to be best pleased if we arrive after a long walk in at somewhere relatively obscure and find the entire crag covered with them!
Jonny2vests - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Natalyaaa)
>
> Good effort. If only all clubs and groups planned like this. Despite the advice above, Dovestones isn't such a good choice for a big group including lots of beginners in September.

Yes, top marks. Natalyaaa, please ignore the trolls and the noise banging on about your budget. Best ever pre-warning fresher post?
Jimbo C - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Natalyaaa:

A well thought out plan and good post. There will always be people who think that big groups have no place at the crag, but it sounds like you have a good management plan. My tip is to make some use of the Beech Buttress area in between Froggatt and Curbar proper, it has good routes across the grades and is usually deserted whilst people queue for Trapeze Direct et al.
ads.ukclimbing.com
NorthernGrit - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to jkarran:

Engage brain. Read again.

I'm talking about an organisation making money by putting lots of people onto a public resource. I couldn't care less about them taking money from the students.

Numbers in the outdoors issues aside, let's say you take your child to a public playground, except when you get there somebody is having a children's birthday party for 50 kids and you can't get near the swings. Now let's say it has been organanised by a professional party organiser who is charging 10 a head to do so. Does this not seem a bit off?
Blue Straggler - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Jimbo C:
> My tip is to make some use of the Beech Buttress area in between Froggatt and Curbar proper


Good call, we did the VS routes down at that end expecting them to be crap and they really weren't. Not as overgrown as expected either. Amethyst etc.
jkarran - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to NorthernGrit:

They're not paying for access, certainly not exclusive access. They're paying for a service. In this case it's club membership and the benefits that brings, BMC membership, insurance, equipment, knowledge, transport and maybe a brew with a bacon buttie. They are *very* clearly stating they won't be reducing other people's access to the rock.

No, this does not seem 'a bit off' to me, it seems *perfectly* reasonable.

My brain is well enough engaged for a Thursday afternoon thank you very much, it apparently just works a little differently to yours.
jk
NorthernGrit - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to jkarran:

It goes without saying that of course putting 17 people (including novices) on each of three crags will of course potentially reduce other's access to rock, not to mention the 'environmental' impact (visible numbers/noise etc).

Again, yes, as far as this sort of thing goes the club in question is being perfectly reasonable. It does not mean I do not or should not have concerns which should be aired.

You missed the point about my reasons for being concerned about charging, but my comments to engage brain were inflammatory and unhelpful. For that I apologise.

It seems to be nigh on impossible to actually have a debate about anything where people have polarising views on this site without acrimony or accusations of trolling.
Let me re-iterate - I have concerns about this sort of thing which I will continue to air (perhaps not here because of my previous point) but I hope each and every person from MUMC has a great time and they have a successful year as a club.
r0x0r.wolfo - on 11 Jul 2013
You mention enviromental aspect, but what's the difference between 20 students and 20 randomners who go to the crag? In this case it appears quite a lot.

1) The students will be taking one minibus and not 10-15 cars. Less emissions.
2) They will be taking rubbish out, not only theirs but others. (This is not guaranteed with the randomners, afterall, someone leaves the mess.
3) They aren't taking up the best routes.
Ramblin dave - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to NorthernGrit:
Is it okay if I pay my share of the petrol money when I go climbing with my mates?
jkarran - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to NorthernGrit:

> It goes without saying that of course putting 17 people (including novices) on each of three crags will of course potentially reduce other's access to rock, not to mention the 'environmental' impact (visible numbers/noise etc).

Potentially but only in the same way you potentially stop me accessing a particular route at a particular time and visa-versa.

The 'environmental' concerns seem well dealt with to me. Small groups, bus, awareness of littering...

> Again, yes, as far as this sort of thing goes the club in question is being perfectly reasonable. It does not mean I do not or should not have concerns which should be aired.

Air away, I'm not stopping you.

> You missed the point about my reasons for being concerned about charging, but my comments to engage brain were inflammatory and unhelpful. For that I apologise.

Accepted. Perhaps you could explain again, it's not clear what your actual concern is besides (and perhaps I'm being uncharitable) disliking busy crags.

> It seems to be nigh on impossible to actually have a debate about anything where people have polarising views on this site without acrimony or accusations of trolling.
> Let me re-iterate - I have concerns about this sort of thing which I will continue to air (perhaps not here because of my previous point) but I hope each and every person from MUMC has a great time and they have a successful year as a club.

Here seems like the right spot to me unless you'd prefer to discuss it directly with MUMC or the BMC access rep for the area.

jk
Tom Last - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to xplorer:
> (In reply to toad)
>
> MEN-a-pause
>

Classic! ;)
victorclimber - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Natalyaaa: best mail of its type seen on here I think .and you seem to have covered all the problems .just a thought where are you going to put the Portable Toilets ..
JoshOvki on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to NorthernGrit:
> (In reply to Natalyaaa)
> Does any of this money get put back to anywhere other than your club or the local area?
>

Well why should the money go anywhere else? Where would you like the money to go?

The money no doubt from my own experience will also go into the BMC and Gear shops.
Jonny2vests - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to NorthernGrit:
> (In reply to jkarran)
>
> Now let's say it has been organanised by a professional party organiser who is charging 10 a head to do so. Does this not seem a bit off?

You talk as if MUMC is a business trying to make a profit, when in fact all the money goes back to its members. Can't you see that your party organiser analogy is way off the mark.
Ramblin dave - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:
> (In reply to NorthernGrit)
> [...]
>
> You talk as if MUMC is a business trying to make a profit, when in fact all the money goes back to its members.

Or, more precisely, goes back to organising trips for its members. Which is what the subs are for in the first place.
Wesley Orvis - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Natalyaaa:

Defeats the whole point of been there, why not just book a climbing centre out? Or if you must go outside why not have four groups of 8 to 10 and go to completely different crags, then seperate into 3 groups and minimise the visual pollution for everyone else visiting the same crag.
Goucho on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:
> (In reply to toad
>
> In any case, it's a bit sad that MUMC have put a lot of thought into minimizing the issues associated with a big freshers' meet (and I think to an extent the fact that they're aware that there are potential issues and are trying to minimize them will make a massive difference even if people want to quibble over specific choices that they've made) and all people can do is moan about their finances.
>
You could give some folk on here a brand new fully expensed Ferrari, and they'd still come on here moaning that they don't like the bloody colour!

Sally Bustyerface - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to xplorer:
> (In reply to toad)
>
> MEN-a-pause
>
> What's up toad? What problem have you got with the group going climbing. What about there money affairs? Please tell, I want a laugh.

"...What about there money..."

What about their money.....

xplorer on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Sally Bustyerface:

Fantastic Sally,

Real grown up behaviour there. What's the problem with you, are you not going to contribute?
xplorer on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Wesley Orvis:

"Defeats the whole point of been there, why not just book a climbing centre out? Or if you must go outside why not have four groups of 8 to 10 and go to completely different crags, then seperate into 3 groups and minimise the visual pollution for everyone else visiting the same crag."

Give it a rest, get down to the crag on the same day, have a laugh, be sociable. You will probably find its as busy as any other weekend.

Calder - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Wesley Orvis: Er, did you not see points 1 & 3?
vyl20 - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Natalyaaa:

Natalya, having organised a freshers trip in the past I congratulate you on your early warning and the well-thought out plan.

I only take issue with the following:

3. Ensuring leaders do not take groups on 2 and 3 starred routes, where possible. We'll try and make sure our leaders find suitable quiet routes. We'll also try to spread out along the crag, not congregate at the first buttress we come to.

You have as much right to be on the crag and on these routes in small groups of 4 (Leading / seconding) as anyone else. If you want to do 2 / 3 star routes to give freshers the best possible experience do them.

Give people the best start out and they'll be back!

Vincent
Lukem6 - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Natalyaaa: thank you for putting in the effort to do it as best as possible.

I've not yet climbed much western grit so don't know if there is much closer to Manchester but would've thought there was a lot to choose from between Froggatt and Manchester.
But thankfully there is a lot to choose from here on the east just follow your promise of minimising impact and hopefully set a standard to follow. Maybe you could document the day in a "Best Group Practice for Crags" get some BMC stamp on it and maybe silence the forums for once. also have a legacy to leave once someone such as yourself leaves UNI and we get the next guy/girl unwilling to put the effort in.
Jonny2vests - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Lukem6:
> Maybe you could document the day in a "Best Group Practice for Crags" get some BMC stamp on it and maybe silence the forums for once.

That document already exists, written by the BMC!

Dave Garnett - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Wesley Orvis:
> (In reply to Natalyaaa)
>
> Defeats the whole point of been there, why not just book a climbing centre out? Or if you must go outside...

It doesn't defeat the point of them being there. It will be fun. As long as you don't turn up, obviously.
Lukem6 - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests: wow didn't know that.

I meant they could show an example maybe in a short film. The BMc do lay out suggested Group etiquette. And thats fine as a guide line etc. But would be interesting to see the whole event in action and how they reinforce the BMC guidelines in a real world situation.

In the same sense that being told that dyneema melts is one thing seeing the video is another, or more to the point learning from visual experience is as close to first hand experience without all the trouble band reinforces knowledge more than a loose written guideline. It may or may not show improve opinions of Student Societies at crags.
blackreaver - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to NorthernGrit: We should just ban all climbing outright, then there would be no litter and no erosion. The routes can then be perfectly preserved for younger generations to look at - from behind a glass wall of course.

BR
Lukem6 - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to blackreaver: oh maybe have season bans to allow a year or two to help conserve the area.


Can you imagine the outrage, maybe toll booths on crags to limit attendance.... I can see the pitch forks and burning torches as i type this
ERH - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Natalyaaa:

Tell them all not to wear university clothing, and just don't promote the fact that you're Manchester... sorted. No-one will notice the difference!
blackreaver - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Lukem6: With a student discount of course :)
Blue Straggler - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to ERH:
> (In reply to Natalyaaa)
>
> Tell them all not to wear university clothing, and just don't promote the fact that you're Manchester... sorted. No-one will notice the difference!

That is a very good point actually, given that perfectly well behaved uni groups often come in for stick on these forums from grumpy old bastards posting "waaaaah I went to MY crag and there were all these young people with their hoodies, they seemed nice but I didn't like the look of them. Probably hiding ghetto-blasters" :-)
Blue Straggler - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to vyl20:

Agreed. As long as they don't have a "conveyor belt" system going (I have seen one uni group do this at Froggatt on Chequer's Buttress - fair play, a strong lead but pair after pair after pair seemed to be on it; was that any better than hogging it with a top rope?

I digress though! Of course MUMC should not feel under pressure to not lead 2/3 * routes.
Wesley Orvis - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Natalyaaa:

Nothing worse than the siege of a a crag by spotty students.
ads.ukclimbing.com
andyathome - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to xplorer:
> How f*cking boring.

How f*cking boring.
Grim - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Wesley Orvis:
> (In reply to Natalyaaa)
>
> Nothing worse than the siege of a a crag by spotty students.

"I used to be uptight, bad tempered, very irritable and stressed but after finding mountains all this has changed,I and am now very calm relaxed and fun to be around"

From your user profile... classic!
dr_botnik - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Natalyaaa:

I really appreciate the thoughtfulness shown here by the MUMCs committee. I remember being in a similar position and it being a thankless task.

Stay Calm
and
Keep Climbing
SteveRi - on 12 Jul 2013
Welcome to the world of climbing. It's a broad church :)
Simon Caldwell - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to vyl20:
> If you want to do 2 / 3 star routes to give freshers the best possible experience do them.

They won't thank you if they take to climbing and realise you've blown the onsight lead for them ;-)
Morgan Woods - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to Wesley Orvis:
> (In reply to Natalyaaa)
>
> Nothing worse than the siege of a a crag by spotty students.

Shouldn't you be climbing much harder than them anyway?
JdotP - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to Natalyaaa:

66 replies? FFS people, get a life! It is unreasonable for people climbing on the peak district gritstone to expect to have the crag to themselves... If you want the crag to yourself go to Tajikistan. Or Mam Tor.
Liam Brown - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to JdotP:
> (In reply to Natalyaaa)
>
> 66 replies? FFS people, get a life! It is unreasonable for people climbing on the peak district gritstone to expect to have the crag to themselves... If you want the crag to yourself go to Tajikistan. Or Mam Tor.


I think the replies have been mainly positive. I would have thought Mam Tor would be quite lose in September, but yes I expect very few people will be climbing there.
Offwidth - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to Toreador:

True but hardly the main concern though, is it? The real problem I've seen is not so much the classic lead it's inexperienced seconds with poor technique scrabbling up (sometimes even in dirty trainers or walking boots) slowly, sometimes yanking away on gear through fear or because they dont know how to remove it efficiently. This is all in the context that when you first start you may as well be on any route. Or another problem is a lead with multiple seconds (effectively a group top-rope). This builds queues and trashes the route way more than an experinced pair climbing in good style. I co-edited the BMC guide and used to organise uni club trips and worked with the BMC in this, so I am an interested party. I've also been a veteran of these MUMC threads and they started OK compared to the worst case groups (with a few areas I suggested where they could improve) and have just got better and better.

deepsoup - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to Liam Brown:
> I would have thought Mam Tor would be quite lose in September

Aha! A cunning reverse booby double bluff there, nice work sir. :o)
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=556189
Liam Brown - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to deepsoup:

Yeah, chosey innit.

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