/ Replacing threads - what diameter cord?

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papashango - on 10 Jul 2013
What's the minimum diameter cord needed to replace a thread safely?
LJC - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to papashango: The thickest you can poke through the hole? 6mm would be a safe bet - I've used prussiks before when replacing really manky in-situe threads.
mkean - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to papashango:
How wide is a piece of string? ;-)

Have a look at the rating of your cord, the sharpness of the edges and how good you are with knots! I normally carry 5mm cord for threads and things but I would use something thicker if I thought it would get a lot of traffic.
GridNorth - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to papashango: This is either a troll or a climber who will at some point, very soon, fall victim the the theories of Darwin.
highclimber - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to GridNorth: I think it's a perfectly reasonable question. They could have looked a little harder in the archived threads, mind you but it's definately not a troll. if it is then it's a particularly poor one!
papashango - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to GridNorth:

Are you always a tosser? ;)

Cheers for the helpful replies, going to order a load of 6mm.
GridNorth - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to highclimber: No it's one of the most stupid questions I've ever seen on this forum. Common sense tells you that you should use the biggest cord or sling that the thread will accommodate. If you can only get a 5mm sling to fit then that is what you would use. God help the younger generation.
JSA - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to GridNorth:

I was thinking more along the lines of "If the question needs asking then should they be replacing it?".
papashango - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to GridNorth:

Going to an overseas venue so haven't seen each individual thread (obviously). Buying a load in advance to take and replace old manky ones...

Quite a difference in price between diameters hence the question.
GridNorth - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to papashango: That's two strikes now then. You should have worded your original post better and you should not have called me an offensive name. It was personal and offensive and I wager you would not dare call me that to my face.
Steve Crowe - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to papashango:

I would suggest that you treat yourself to a selection of sizes of rope and tape then use the biggest that will fit each placement.

Sometime you can double up a thin thread where a larger rope/tape wouldn't fit.
papashango - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to GridNorth:

Yeah the post should have been worded better.

There was a little smiley after the word "tosser", it wasn't meant seriously, chill man! Insinuating death in your first post, a bit worse?!

What happens on the third strike? :p
GridNorth - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to papashango: No I'm sorry you can't call someone a tosser and then think everything is OK by adding a smiley. I never got past the tosser part to be honest and was very offended. Lets just put this down to generational differences. My generation is not used to such casual use of language, especially when it is being published.
papashango - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Steve Crowe:

Cheers Steve. Doubling up seems like a neat trick.
Rock Badger on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to papashango:

He basically said your daft as f*ck and implied that your going to die from it. 3rd strike, 60 year old in a zimmer is going to get you :)
wiwwim - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to papashango: by tying an overhand on a bight after threading, or two individual loops? (I am such a tosser sometimes, I should know this and not be asking it on a forum)
cyberpunk - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to papashango: I would go with the thickest you can get through the hole. The best way I have seen is to get some tubular tape and put your cord through it. Then tie the cord off with a double fishermans with 2 inch tails. The tubular tape is not to be incoporated into the fishermans knot.
The tubular tape protects the cord from the edge and also protects the cord from sun light.
Fair play to you for replacing threads.
jkarran - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to papashango:

The fattest you can reasonably get through it until you're using off cuts of an old rope. Check for sharp edges.. what you do with them is up to you but I'd consider blunting them.

jk
mutt - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to GridNorth:
> (In reply to highclimber) No it's one of the most stupid questions I've ever seen on this forum. Common sense tells you that you should use the biggest cord or sling that the thread will accommodate. If you can only get a 5mm sling to fit then that is what you would use. God help the younger generation <

Perhaps you should read the OP. There's nothing common sense about putting in the maximum diameter cord possible. There is clearly no point in putting anything bigger than a single rope 12 mm cord regardless of how big the thread is, and anyway the OP asked wheat the minimum is, which is 6mm im most peoples books. Presumably no-one would abseil from 6mm dynemma if it was at risk of breaking.

wind your neck in.
jkarran - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to mutt:

> ...the OP asked wheat the minimum is...

Which is a daft question. If you're equipping a route and there's a vital small thread you don't skip it because 6mm wont fit, you put in the next best size then re-evaluate the risk. Or you get stronger cord or wire if that risk is still unacceptable.

> ...which is 6mm im most peoples books. Presumably no-one would abseil from 6mm dynemma if it was at risk of breaking.

6mm is too thin for in-situ threads where something fatter will fit. Personally I'd aim to get ~9mm rope in then adjust my plan from there for smaller/tighter threads.

6mm nylon or dyneema is adequate for abseiling if used carefully. Neither is suitable for equipping an ab point that is meant to be re-used. Thread runners on route aren't abseil anchors, they take far higher loads and will probably stay in place for years, they need to be burly when they're done wearing out let alone to begin with (and ideally drab coloured).

jk
GridNorth - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to mutt: Wind your own neck in. Worded as it was it was the a daft question. The OP then when on to explain in a slighter clearer way what he was getting at.
BIgYeti86 - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to cyberpunk:
> The tubular tape protects the cord from the edge and also protects the cord from sun light.
> Fair play to you for replacing threads.

Like how the outer sheath protects the inner weight bearing cord?

mutt - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to jkarran:
> (In reply to mutt)

> 6mm is too thin for in-situ threads where something fatter will fit. Personally I'd aim to get ~9mm rope in then adjust my plan from there for smaller/tighter threads.
>
> 6mm nylon or dyneema is adequate for abseiling if used carefully. Neither is suitable for equipping an ab point that is meant to be re-used. Thread runners on route aren't abseil anchors, they take far higher loads and will probably stay in place for years, they need to be burly when they're done wearing out let alone to begin with (and ideally drab coloured).
>
> jk

JK are you sure about that? dyneema and vectran are 15 times the strength of steel. Polyester is a dramically different material and they are not at all interchangeable in their properties. I've got a number of 'wires' that have 4 mm dynemma instead of steel. Whilst I haven't lobbed onto them continuously for years I'd hope that when they were accredited someone tested them robustly.

I'd have thought that Static strength, Dynamic Strength, UV resistance, Melting point, bend weakening were the key parameters. I don't have the data to hand but all this talk of using '9mm' or '12mm' simply equates to 'I don't know what is strong enough so I'm going to cut up my old climbing rope and use that', which is a bit non-sensical because climbing rope of the length of a thread doesn't conform in any way to how it was tested.

the fact is that we all happily lob onto our hexes over and over again and they have never been threaded with 9mm cord. And regardless of how the original question has morphed through clarification, abuse, and ridicule, it is still a valid question, because who wants to carry 3 meters of climbing rope up a cliff when they can readily transport 6mm/7mm cord coiled on a single screwgate.

I stand to be corrected when someone produces an adequately thought through and verified analysis of what the best thread materials are. Doesn't the BMC do this sort of thing?
GridNorth - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to mutt: I think that what you have done here is clarify how badly written the original post was. I read it one way you read it another although I would say your interpretation is based more on the developing thread than the original question. I honestly thought the wording was so bad that it was a troll.
jkarran - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to mutt:

> JK are you sure about that?

Sure about what, that wire rope is stronger than accessory cord in like for like sizes? I've just double checked my memory and yes, bog standard galvanized 7x7 wire rope is stronger size for size than 'kevlar' kernmantle, roughly 30% stronger.

'Kevlar' cord is only available in a few odd sizes so realistically where wire were being considered you'd almost certainly be comparing steel with nylon and there's no comparison in terms of strength and cut resistance.

> dyneema and vectran are 15 times the strength of steel.

Because it's far lighter which is irrelevant here.

> Polyester is a dramically different material and they are not at all interchangeable in their properties. I've got a number of 'wires' that have 4 mm dynemma instead of steel. Whilst I haven't lobbed onto them continuously for years I'd hope that when they were accredited someone tested them robustly.

I'm sure they were, there'll be a strength rating of some sort marked on them. Exactly what it means varies a little but what it doesn't mean is that they couldn't be stronger slung on an alternative material.

> I'd have thought that Static strength, Dynamic Strength, UV resistance, Melting point, bend weakening were the key parameters. I don't have the data to hand but all this talk of using '9mm' or '12mm' simply equates to 'I don't know what is strong enough so I'm going to cut up my old climbing rope and use that', which is a bit non-sensical because climbing rope of the length of a thread doesn't conform in any way to how it was tested.

Yes and no. What's strong enough, I'd want it to hold the sort of fall it's required to hold on the day it looks so ratty someone thinks 'I'll replace that'. 6mm cord is very likely good enough on day one but if you could get something stronger and with more damage resistance into the same hole, why wouldn't you?

And yes, I said I'd *personally* go for 9mm precisely because I have some handy and it's adequately robust plus it clearly shows damage by fraying before becoming dangerously weak.

> the fact is that we all happily lob onto our hexes over and over again and they have never been threaded with 9mm cord. And regardless of how the original question has morphed through clarification, abuse, and ridicule, it is still a valid question, because who wants to carry 3 meters of climbing rope up a cliff when they can readily transport 6mm/7mm cord coiled on a single screwgate.

It really depends what you're doing. I can't help but wonder if we're talking about the same thing, I'm talking about equipping a route with new in-situ gear that needs to last, not simply leaving behind something that was adequate for my ascent.

If you want to sling something on lead then use a sling and retrieve it.

> I stand to be corrected when someone produces an adequately thought through and verified analysis of what the best thread materials are. Doesn't the BMC do this sort of thing?

Perhaps you should ask them.
jk
PeakDJ on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to papashango:

If it's in Thailand I'd wait and use an old rope. Mike has one of ours for that purpose and I'm sure he's probably still got it.
xplorer on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to GridNorth:

It seems you are the only one finding difficulties with the op!


Is that not telling you something?
Lukem6 - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to GridNorth: I like how the original post has asked a basic question allowing for people to come up with a consensus of 6mm(depending on the situation) and how it has caused people to elaborate on the different cords they'd used in different situations. personally I always carry a couple of metres of 6mm cord and a couple of maillons for leaving behind as tat or re-equipping an abb point if I dont trust what's there.

The whole point of common sense is that its common but not necessarily absolute. So some people may not know, the best place to ask would be a forum. If it wasn't for the people calling troll and slating peoples attempt to expand their base of common knowledge. I'm looking at you GN.
GrahamD - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to papashango:

Rather depends on how permanent a thread you are intending to leave. Pretty much anything is OK for a one off emergency and due care.

For something others will use, use accessory cord, because old climbing ropes are not as hard wearing and stretch a lot (plus threads that wide are not as common!)
mike kann - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to papashango: To the OP - you might want to consider using tape in some cases as rope tends to cut more readily than tape - the load is spread over a wider area with tape and on a sharp edge this could be significant.
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Steve Crowe - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to papashango:

Since you are planning ahead then don't forget to take an old wire coat hanger to help hooking out the new thread in awkward places.

(also I would suggest that 6mm core in a threaded loop is actually 2 x 6mm when considering the loading factors etc)
papashango - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to papashango:

cheers for all the replies, interesting reading.

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