This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Hi, I'm really new to all this and understand that accidents can and do happen. But looking at the really basic simple cause of the kid's tragic death By the rope falsly being attached to the biner by a rubber clip. i am wondering if this is something a competent instructor would tell me or is it something which every climber knows about or would I have to learn these things the hard way?
Bear with me, I'm new!
Bear with me, I'm new!
In reply to Boocat:
Fundamentally, it's just common sense. You shouldn't need an expert to tell you that an elastic band isn't going to stop a fall.
Fundamentally, it's just common sense. You shouldn't need an expert to tell you that an elastic band isn't going to stop a fall.
In reply to JLS: Yeah its just more that your eye automatically ignores things you deem safe from experience... it should be spotted in a check.. but its why the buddy system is needed because our eyes can just flick over things.
In reply to Boocat:
Further, to better answer your question... There has been accidents where similar "retainers" have accidently become the load bearers and these have been highlighted and would probably be mentioned where relevant during instruction.
Further, to better answer your question... There has been accidents where similar "retainers" have accidently become the load bearers and these have been highlighted and would probably be mentioned where relevant during instruction.
In reply to JLS: I understands that it's common sense in hindsight and I know the elastic retainer wouldn't hold weight., but watching that video with the climbers showing the cause I don't think I would have conceived that could even happen, it's like a conjurors sleight of hand trick (hope I spelled 'sleight' correctly).
In reply to IainRUK:
Easy to see how you could miss something like that. In a perfect world people wouldn't fcuk up. Must be tough right now for those involved in this particular cluster-fcuk.
Easy to see how you could miss something like that. In a perfect world people wouldn't fcuk up. Must be tough right now for those involved in this particular cluster-fcuk.
In reply to Boocat:
Which video have you been watching?
There's no sleight of hand or anything like it in this case.
> (In reply to JLS) but watching that video with the climbers showing the cause I don't think I would have conceived that could even happen, it's like a conjurors sleight of hand trick (hope I spelled 'sleight' correctly).
Which video have you been watching?
There's no sleight of hand or anything like it in this case.
In reply to Boocat:
There are few things going on...
It's one thing to make a school boy error and another to spot it when it's easy to glance past.
There are few things going on...
It's one thing to make a school boy error and another to spot it when it's easy to glance past.
In reply to winhill:
I suspect the op means the video linked on the news page and I know exactly what he means. Look at the video and you will see, pass the sling back through crab and pull, hey presto
I suspect the op means the video linked on the news page and I know exactly what he means. Look at the video and you will see, pass the sling back through crab and pull, hey presto
In reply to pog100:
I hope that's not the video the op's seen, I already criticised using it on this incident, the BMC have released a similar one today (open slings). It's just confusing for people, I reckon.
> (In reply to winhill)
> I suspect the op means the video linked on the news page and I know exactly what he means. Look at the video and you will see, pass the sling back through crab and pull, hey presto
> I suspect the op means the video linked on the news page and I know exactly what he means. Look at the video and you will see, pass the sling back through crab and pull, hey presto
I hope that's not the video the op's seen, I already criticised using it on this incident, the BMC have released a similar one today (open slings). It's just confusing for people, I reckon.
In reply to Boocat:
As a new climber,when you buy new gear read the instructions carefully and use only as recommended.They will cover these details.
Always look at gear you use and assess it to the best you can. Don't just follow other blindly but be observant and make your own choices (easier with experience I know)
Eg: a rope may be torn or frayed, a belay device may be worn sharp.
Even Bolts on a route may be loose, or a tree anchor rotted out.
Any doubts ask someone.
Good luck
As a new climber,when you buy new gear read the instructions carefully and use only as recommended.They will cover these details.
Always look at gear you use and assess it to the best you can. Don't just follow other blindly but be observant and make your own choices (easier with experience I know)
Eg: a rope may be torn or frayed, a belay device may be worn sharp.
Even Bolts on a route may be loose, or a tree anchor rotted out.
Any doubts ask someone.
Good luck
In reply to Boocat:
again
can anyone explain why we use these retaining rings
is there a long list of serious accidents cause by wrongly aligned biners?
there are a number of accidents directly attributed to their use
we need the numbers, bring on a knowledgeable statistician!!!
again
can anyone explain why we use these retaining rings
is there a long list of serious accidents cause by wrongly aligned biners?
there are a number of accidents directly attributed to their use
we need the numbers, bring on a knowledgeable statistician!!!
In reply to John Kelly:
O rings, castration rings, petzl 'strings' and all manner of home made stuff are used to capture and hold tight the crab at the 'rope' end of a long QD sling or open sling. Should you fall onto the gear and the rope crab isn't held in position on the sling, the crab could quite easily rotate and when your weight comes onto it the crab could become cross loaded. IMO this risk is just as great as the risk of one strand of the sling becoming clipped into the rope crab by mistake. As climbers we need to remember that climbing is dangerous and incidents such as Tito's remind us of this and everyone panics. The onus remains on us to ensure we use gear correcty and safely and that means understanding gear, forces etc so well done for asking the question, if you don't know then ask! No such thing as a stupid question.
I have 2 sling draws on my rack, both are 60cm slings with a crab for the gear end and a revolver crab for the rope end. These are carried as normal QDs and are tripled up when on harness, I can use them as standard QDs or opened out for long QDs. I've made sure that the bar stitched section of the sling is butted up tightly to the revolver before adding the retainer (Petzl string in this case) which should make any accidental self clipping evident.
> (In reply to Boocat)
>
> again
> can anyone explain why we use these retaining rings
>
> again
> can anyone explain why we use these retaining rings
O rings, castration rings, petzl 'strings' and all manner of home made stuff are used to capture and hold tight the crab at the 'rope' end of a long QD sling or open sling. Should you fall onto the gear and the rope crab isn't held in position on the sling, the crab could quite easily rotate and when your weight comes onto it the crab could become cross loaded. IMO this risk is just as great as the risk of one strand of the sling becoming clipped into the rope crab by mistake. As climbers we need to remember that climbing is dangerous and incidents such as Tito's remind us of this and everyone panics. The onus remains on us to ensure we use gear correcty and safely and that means understanding gear, forces etc so well done for asking the question, if you don't know then ask! No such thing as a stupid question.
I have 2 sling draws on my rack, both are 60cm slings with a crab for the gear end and a revolver crab for the rope end. These are carried as normal QDs and are tripled up when on harness, I can use them as standard QDs or opened out for long QDs. I've made sure that the bar stitched section of the sling is butted up tightly to the revolver before adding the retainer (Petzl string in this case) which should make any accidental self clipping evident.
In reply to Boocat:
Hi Boocat, welcome to UKC. Not being pedantic here but I just want to correct your wording a little.
The quick draw sling wasn't attached to the crab at all. It looked like it had been but is wasn't, the rubber retainer at the rope end of the QD held the sling and the crab together and at first glance, it appeared to be 'normal', in fact the only thing that held the sling and the crab together was the rubber retainer. When weight was loaded on the system, the rubber retainer failed allowing the sling and the crab to part. The sling was never actually clipped to the crab as it should have been, if it had been the system wouldn't have failed. This can happen in 2 documented ways - user error when making the QD's in the first place, I understand this was the case in this incident as other QDs were found after the incident that had been set up the same, fatal way. The other being accidental clipping, that is a long QD that has a retained rope end crab and one stand of the sling has managed to clip itself to that crab by accident. Really what has happened here is the sling has 'unclipped' itself from the crab but the retainer holds the sling onto the crab and should the climber not notice this, the only thing keeping him off the ground is the rubber retainer.
Its really important to understand these things as your life depends on that understanding.
> But looking at the really basic simple cause of the kid's tragic death By the rope falsly being attached to the biner by a rubber clip.
Hi Boocat, welcome to UKC. Not being pedantic here but I just want to correct your wording a little.
The quick draw sling wasn't attached to the crab at all. It looked like it had been but is wasn't, the rubber retainer at the rope end of the QD held the sling and the crab together and at first glance, it appeared to be 'normal', in fact the only thing that held the sling and the crab together was the rubber retainer. When weight was loaded on the system, the rubber retainer failed allowing the sling and the crab to part. The sling was never actually clipped to the crab as it should have been, if it had been the system wouldn't have failed. This can happen in 2 documented ways - user error when making the QD's in the first place, I understand this was the case in this incident as other QDs were found after the incident that had been set up the same, fatal way. The other being accidental clipping, that is a long QD that has a retained rope end crab and one stand of the sling has managed to clip itself to that crab by accident. Really what has happened here is the sling has 'unclipped' itself from the crab but the retainer holds the sling onto the crab and should the climber not notice this, the only thing keeping him off the ground is the rubber retainer.
Its really important to understand these things as your life depends on that understanding.
In reply to Boocat:
It's the sort of thing that might get mentioned in the aftermath of a tragic accident like this but I doubt it'd be routinely covered by a basic training course, you'd end up with information overload if every little trap and trick were covered.
It's one of those things where, once spotted the risk is obvious. What's not so obvious is how a simple tangle can accidentally cause the krab to become unclipped. It's also not as easy as you might think to spot simple mistakes while inexperienced then later once a little complacency has set in.
> Hi, I'm really new to all this and understand that accidents can and do happen. But looking at the really basic simple cause of the kid's tragic death By the rope falsly being attached to the biner by a rubber clip. i am wondering if this is something a competent instructor would tell me or is it something which every climber knows about or would I have to learn these things the hard way?
It's the sort of thing that might get mentioned in the aftermath of a tragic accident like this but I doubt it'd be routinely covered by a basic training course, you'd end up with information overload if every little trap and trick were covered.
It's one of those things where, once spotted the risk is obvious. What's not so obvious is how a simple tangle can accidentally cause the krab to become unclipped. It's also not as easy as you might think to spot simple mistakes while inexperienced then later once a little complacency has set in.
In reply to Boocat:
Have a read (and a watch) of this for a simple explanation by the BMC:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/deadly-quickdraws-open-sling-rubber-band-accident
Have a read (and a watch) of this for a simple explanation by the BMC:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/deadly-quickdraws-open-sling-rubber-band-accident
In reply to Boocat:
this article has 2 videos of two possible scenarios
http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/12-year-old-tito-traversa-dies-in-clim...
Although the report here says it was a draw with little elastic keeper, not the other kind. http://www.grimper.com/news-mauvais-montage-degaines-utilisees-tito-travers...
this article has 2 videos of two possible scenarios
http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/12-year-old-tito-traversa-dies-in-clim...
Although the report here says it was a draw with little elastic keeper, not the other kind. http://www.grimper.com/news-mauvais-montage-degaines-utilisees-tito-travers...
In reply to Boocat:
When you learn to drive, your instructor tells you how to actually operate the car and also tells you some things to try to prevent the most common accidents (keep to the speed limit, look in your mirrors before you manoeuvre, check your blind spot, indicate clearly etc)
However, there are car accidents every single day: nearly 2000 people died in 2012. The whole point about accidents is that the cause of them is often either a person making an error and not spotting something, or something unexpected happening. Experience can help but won't prevent you from ever having an accident.
When you learn to drive, your instructor tells you how to actually operate the car and also tells you some things to try to prevent the most common accidents (keep to the speed limit, look in your mirrors before you manoeuvre, check your blind spot, indicate clearly etc)
However, there are car accidents every single day: nearly 2000 people died in 2012. The whole point about accidents is that the cause of them is often either a person making an error and not spotting something, or something unexpected happening. Experience can help but won't prevent you from ever having an accident.
In reply to Team BMC:
While that issue -- regarding OPEN slings -- is well worth knowing about, it was not the cause of the Tito tragedy (according to the photos at http://www.grimper.com/news-mauvais-montage-degaines-utilisees-tito-travers... ).
> Have a read (and a watch) of this for a simple explanation by the BMC:
While that issue -- regarding OPEN slings -- is well worth knowing about, it was not the cause of the Tito tragedy (according to the photos at http://www.grimper.com/news-mauvais-montage-degaines-utilisees-tito-travers... ).
In reply to Team BMC:
Really got to question why you'd post that video on this thread.
It don't look good.
In fact it suggests the BMC may not understand the Traversa scenario.
If Boocat was researching a How Safe Are Our Children story it would look even worse.
Seriously, consider deleting it.
> (In reply to Boocat)
>
> Have a read (and a watch) of this for a simple explanation by the BMC:
>
> https://www.thebmc.co.uk/deadly-quickdraws-open-sling-rubber-band-accident
>
> Have a read (and a watch) of this for a simple explanation by the BMC:
>
> https://www.thebmc.co.uk/deadly-quickdraws-open-sling-rubber-band-accident
Really got to question why you'd post that video on this thread.
It don't look good.
In fact it suggests the BMC may not understand the Traversa scenario.
If Boocat was researching a How Safe Are Our Children story it would look even worse.
Seriously, consider deleting it.
In reply to winhill:
Because Dan, our technical officer, made it to explain the danger of open slings and quickdraw failure - a situation that has caused several accidents before and was brought back into the news with this accident.
It seemed like a relevant post since the issues are related but the post should probably more accurately have read - for a simple explanation of the danger of open slings.
Dan's on holiday now but we'll get him to add some additional info about the Traversa scenario to his article when he gets back.
Because Dan, our technical officer, made it to explain the danger of open slings and quickdraw failure - a situation that has caused several accidents before and was brought back into the news with this accident.
It seemed like a relevant post since the issues are related but the post should probably more accurately have read - for a simple explanation of the danger of open slings.
Dan's on holiday now but we'll get him to add some additional info about the Traversa scenario to his article when he gets back.
In reply to Boocat:
As others have said, it's something that's been blown way out of proportion.
Check your gear as you use it and you'll be fine, you don't need to pay an instructor to explain this to you really.
As others have said, it's something that's been blown way out of proportion.
Check your gear as you use it and you'll be fine, you don't need to pay an instructor to explain this to you really.
In reply to Team BMC:
I beg to differ as the OP has already said they saw what seemed to be the wrong video!
I've been critical of UKC and Grimpeur for the same thing, and reproducing the photo with the wrong biner clipped.
Given the confusion, I can't see the value in propagating similar but not accurate information.
> (In reply to winhill)
>
> It seemed like a relevant post since the issues are related but the post should probably more accurately have read - for a simple explanation of the danger of open slings.
>
> It seemed like a relevant post since the issues are related but the post should probably more accurately have read - for a simple explanation of the danger of open slings.
I beg to differ as the OP has already said they saw what seemed to be the wrong video!
I've been critical of UKC and Grimpeur for the same thing, and reproducing the photo with the wrong biner clipped.
Given the confusion, I can't see the value in propagating similar but not accurate information.
In reply to winhill:
Whether its directly relevant to this terrible accident or not, there's nothing inaccurate about Dan's video.
> Given the confusion, I can't see the value in propagating similar but not accurate information.
Whether its directly relevant to this terrible accident or not, there's nothing inaccurate about Dan's video.
In reply to deepsoup:
Not accurate as in not helping prevent another occurence, same with Graham Desroy's vid, nothing wrong with the vid but it doesn't help in this specific case.
> (In reply to winhill)
>
> Whether its directly relevant to this terrible accident or not, there's nothing inaccurate about Dan's video.
>
> Whether its directly relevant to this terrible accident or not, there's nothing inaccurate about Dan's video.
Not accurate as in not helping prevent another occurence, same with Graham Desroy's vid, nothing wrong with the vid but it doesn't help in this specific case.
In reply to wilkie14c: my 'punctuation' was poor
'can anyone explain why we use these retaining rings, is there a long list of serious accidents cause by wrongly aligned biners?'
people talk about cross loading but are we getting fatalities from cross loading, we are apparently getting fatalities from the use of the rubber retaining devices designed to prevent this problem
'can anyone explain why we use these retaining rings, is there a long list of serious accidents cause by wrongly aligned biners?'
people talk about cross loading but are we getting fatalities from cross loading, we are apparently getting fatalities from the use of the rubber retaining devices designed to prevent this problem
In reply to Vince McNally:
not sure i agree with you - fatalities from rock climbing are mercifully few
I'm struggling to recall any from misuse gear recently
failure of belays, failure of via ferrata kit, have both killed people recently
not sure i agree with you - fatalities from rock climbing are mercifully few
I'm struggling to recall any from misuse gear recently
failure of belays, failure of via ferrata kit, have both killed people recently
In reply to John Kelly:
Well this one was, after all the kit was not faulty , just assembled incorrectly.
There are loads of cases of people- abbing off the end of a rope for example. Do you think the rope caused the accident?
Well this one was, after all the kit was not faulty , just assembled incorrectly.
There are loads of cases of people- abbing off the end of a rope for example. Do you think the rope caused the accident?
In reply to Vince McNally:
Abbing - my pet hate - you abb off the end, its your fault not gear failure but again i can't recall many recent rock climbing incidents involving this particular problem
my point is that i think this piece of kit may make rockclimbing generally more dangerous but accept that used as intended it makes crossloading less likely - I think as i type this i am coming around to your viewpoint
Abbing - my pet hate - you abb off the end, its your fault not gear failure but again i can't recall many recent rock climbing incidents involving this particular problem
my point is that i think this piece of kit may make rockclimbing generally more dangerous but accept that used as intended it makes crossloading less likely - I think as i type this i am coming around to your viewpoint
In reply to above:
Surely the main reason for the elastic is to make the krab easier to clip as it is held in place? I don't think it's so much to do with the gate cross-loading; after all open slings and extenders are used all the time in trad/alpine climbing without this being judged as a significant issue.
Surely the main reason for the elastic is to make the krab easier to clip as it is held in place? I don't think it's so much to do with the gate cross-loading; after all open slings and extenders are used all the time in trad/alpine climbing without this being judged as a significant issue.
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...