/ NEWS: 30 New Sport Routes Under 7a to be Bolted on Gower

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UKC News - on 26 Jul 2013
Jen Stephens climbing at Shipwreck Cove., 3 kbA new initiative is raising money to create a set of excellent low to mid grade sport routes in South Wales.

Put your money in the hat... Rockfax and The Climbing Academy already have!

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=68240

irish paul - on 26 Jul 2013
In reply to UKC News: Given the ogmore thread this could get messy
sikcby - on 26 Jul 2013
In reply to UKC News: hum... Bolting a sea crag doesn't look like a great idea to me, how many years are the bolts going to last?
Don't go like Europe, stop bolting, it's not sustainable, and it's worst in the coast.
Jimbo C - on 26 Jul 2013
In reply to UKC News:

So, the inevitable question - what are the local ethics on bolting?

Is this a place that could be developed for trad, or are trad protection options/ belays at the top very limited?

Good point raised earlier about corrosion, I remember reading a document about bolting on Kalymnos where stainless steel bolts were rotting out due to a peculiar combination of rock, steel and sea chemistry. The solution was very a specific and expensive combination of titanium and resin, as I recall.

Not wanting to sound too negatrive about what could be a great venue, just asking the obvious questions which hopefully have already been asked and answered at a local level.
Mattdixclimb on 26 Jul 2013 - genkt-049-087.t-mobile.co.uk
In reply to Jimbo C: at the top theres about 10-15 metres of steep grass and I think 1 or 2 routes have been traditionally done during the development on obvious lines but bolting is definally the way forward here.
remus - on 26 Jul 2013
In reply to sikcby:
> (In reply to UKC News) hum... Bolting a sea crag doesn't look like a great idea to me, how many years are the bolts going to last?

Long enough, if the tens of thousands of bolts at portland and kalymnos are anything to go by.

Jonny2vests - on 26 Jul 2013
In reply to Jimbo C:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>

> Good point raised earlier about corrosion

Is it? Some of our best sport crags are by the sea, I'm sure that has crossed Adrian Berry's mind.

And the issue you raised about bolts in Kalymnos (Thailand I think you mean) is about rock, not sea air.
mattrm - on 26 Jul 2013
In reply to Jimbo C:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> So, the inevitable question - what are the local ethics on bolting?
>
> Is this a place that could be developed for trad, or are trad protection options/ belays at the top very limited?
>

This particular crag hasn't been discussed particularly at a local level. However the landowners, the National Trust have approved the bolting. If you look at the topo for Shipwreck Cove here:

http://www.southwalesmountaineering.org.uk/g_book/index.php/Rhossili#Shipwreck_Cove

There's not much of a top-out. There is a trad route, put up by Pat Littlejohn, but that has a bolt belay as the top out is pretty awful. It's also fairly hard at E5 6a. The rest of the crag is fairly steep and we're talking about largely hard routes.

As a local climber who generally opposes local bolting, I'm fairly relaxed about it. There's plenty of trad climbing on the Gower. It's a sea side crag and the cliff and the bolts will eventually not be there anyway (I'm talking in the long term, I'm not suggesting that they'll be chopped). It'll hopefully put an end to the retro-bolting that has occurred on the Gower.

Ultimately, if you're interested, there is a South Wales BMC area meeting on the 3rd of September and you're welcome to come along and express an opinion.
JoshOvki on 26 Jul 2013
In reply to mattrm:

> As a local climber who generally opposes local bolting, I'm fairly relaxed about it.

Same here as long as the bolts don't end up on normal trad routes. I am getting some what concerned about the amount of bolting that seems to be going on in South Wales. Like I said in the other thread

"If it sits still long enough it gets bolted"
joe gallacher - on 26 Jul 2013
In reply to UKC News:If there isn't natural protection and it slows down the appetite for retro bolting trad routes then it's not a bad step. If it's subsequently used as part of the argument for simply bolting more/all of Gower then it'll accelerate the polarisation and growing tension.History has shown that the debate runs along the lines of...There isn't a safe belay..lets only put in lower offs.....the routes are too tough...lets bolt a few unfrequented lines....the crag is a sports crag now...bolt the lot....Unfortunately it's this duplicity which tarnishes the very legitimate use of bolts which does also exist. No doubt i'll be dismissed in some quarters as a musty old trady (I spent a fantastic week in kalymnos this year gaining a whole new respect for the new generation of fantastic young climbers targeting sports routes...and I ran the local club's first ever new members Sport day...because there was a clear demand for it). As with most things in life , a bit of mutual respect and honesty on all fronts tends to go a long way.
El3ctroFuzz - on 26 Jul 2013
In reply to UKC News: Why should we donate? I was told by one of the activists, that it was and I quote "Local routes, for local people"...
Ramon Marin - on 27 Jul 2013
In reply to UKC News:

I will be donating, great effort by bolters. The trad lines are kept, there are two at the moment which are great. The bolters are keen trad climbers as well, don't forget. Bolts on sea cliffs?? Yes hey are just fine, Swanage, Antseys, Portland, Kalymnos, Thailand, Lower Pen Tryw, The Diamond... the list goes on
goi.ashmore - on 27 Jul 2013
In reply to El3ctroFuzz:
Interesting development. Who will do the first ascents?
jakjak - on 27 Jul 2013
In reply to goi.ashmore:
They're mid grade sports routes, so... Gary Gibson? Seriously though,
Interesting point on the ethics of the fa... traditionally I suppose the persoperson who puts the time and effort into bolting it. But this kind of sponsoring bolts could open the door to bought naming rights: "STARBUCKS, 7a" climb the coffee stained wall right of "tescometro"... and so on.
Equippers will have dibs on the first ascent, as usual.
Jimbo C - on 27 Jul 2013
In reply to mattrm:

Cheers. Was just interested. I completely understand why making some sport climbs is the way to go having read your's and others' responses. South Wales is a long way for me, but I have a mate who lives there and may visit for some climbing one day.
Jimbo C - on 27 Jul 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:
> (In reply to Jimbo C)
> And the issue you raised about bolts in Kalymnos (Thailand I think you mean) is about rock, not sea air.

Yes, it was Thailand. I knew it was something to do with chemistry unique to the area. Thanks
alan rosier - on 27 Jul 2013
In reply to UKC News:
> A new initiative is raising money to create a set of excellent low to mid grade sport routes in South Wales.

I went here last weekend.

The cliff lends itself to sport climbing.

Lovely location.

Some of the general sunbathing public came to see the show and were even asking sensible climbing related questions.

However, I can't see where a set of new routes are going to fit into the cove, there must only be room for half a dozen max. ?
Simon Caldwell - on 27 Jul 2013
In reply to mattrm:
> It'll hopefully put an end to the retro-bolting that has occurred on the Gower.

Do you think so? If the Yorkshire experience is anything to go by it will ultimately lead to an increase in retro-bolting.
Goucho on 27 Jul 2013
In reply to Toreador: British climbing seems to be more obsessed with bolts than a 12 year old girl is with Justin Beiber.

I can feel an investment in a company which makes bolts coming on :-)
remus - on 27 Jul 2013
In reply to Goucho: Seems more like people are just getting less obsessed with onsight trad.
Goucho on 27 Jul 2013
In reply to remus: True, why climb a trad route onsight, when you can 'dog' a sports route to death :-)
remus - on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to Goucho: There's enjoyment in both.
Jon_Warner - on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to UKC News:

A great new crag that most certainly lends itself to sport routes. It really would benefit from a few easier lines, and would be a nice venue for families or climbing / non climbing mixes as the setting is beautiful.

Thanks to Adrian and others involved with the cove so far. Can't wait to get back.
JJL - on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to UKC News:

Good plan. Thanks to the bolters
simon rawlinson - on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to El3ctroFuzz: im pretty sure that was a joke, and you don't have to is the awnser
simon rawlinson - on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to Goucho: really ? very constructive
steveej - on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to simon rawlinson:

As if there aren't enough middle grade sport climbing venues in south wales. S.Wales seems to have gone bolt mad since I left. Now gower gets more and more bolts, how times change.

To be honest if its a choss heap with no trad potential then fair enough. But I don't agree with the 'wholesale' bolting arrangements here - what is this wholesaling trying to prove?. If you can't afford to equip the route when making the ffa then why not leaving something for the next generation.

Glad I'm not part of the S.Wales scene anymore. It's not where the sport should be going as far as I am concerned. I know Adrian has a long history there but he should be ashamed of himself.
steveej - on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to simon rawlinson:

"Whole sale bolting" - yes I've just worked it out! I'm more than happy to come down with my drill. Free bolts for me to make some first ascents how does that sound to you!

Firsts ascents for free.
steveej - on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to jakjak:

well it just goes back to 'commercialisation'. People not wanting to get a normal job, but trying anything they possibly can to make money out of climbing. In this case, free bolts so they can get a few first ascents on the cheap.

If you can't afford it, leave it for someone else. Stop being so greedy!
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Goucho on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to simon rawlinson:
> (In reply to Goucho) really ? very constructive

Sorry, I must have missed the part in the UKC posting guidelines which says you can't make sarcastic comments, or have a different opinion on matters.

Kyle Warlow - on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to steveej:
> (In reply to jakjak)
>
> well it just goes back to 'commercialisation'. People not wanting to get a normal job, but trying anything they possibly can to make money out of climbing. In this case, free bolts so they can get a few first ascents on the cheap.
>
> If you can't afford it, leave it for someone else. Stop being so greedy!

Fairplay, you're a fruit cake if you believe that.
Don't know who you are but I am also glad you're not part of the South Wales scene anymore.
leeoftroy - on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to remus: correct :)
simon rawlinson - on 28 Jul 2013
Fair point , I oppologies
steveej - on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to Kyle Warlow:

Its not a case of me believing anything. I've spent time cleaning and drilling and I know how much time it takes (the cost of the bolts is secondary compared to the time it takes). But Climbing is changing and not necessarily for the better.

People acting in the interests of themselves rather than the interests of climbing as a whole which is what this whole sale bolting is all about as far as I am concerned.

As an aside, Quarries which are man made then fine, but were now bolting more and more on gower and this is just a sign of what happens to be fashionable at the moment.

I can't believe people are so foolish to give money to others for them to do the first ascent?!!*&?

Why don't you stick your hand in your pocket, buy some bolts and get down their doing your own routes. Or are you a hero worshiper?
In reply to steveej:

> I can't believe people are so foolish to give money to others for them to do the first ascent?!!*&?
>
> Why don't you stick your hand in your pocket, buy some bolts and get down their doing your own routes. Or are you a hero worshiper?

This bit of your argument is totally weird. Are you saying people who like sport climbing shouldn't give money to bolt funds to help equip more routes that they can climb in the future, but rather they should (first learn how to place bolts safely, buy or borrow a drill) buy their own bolts and only bolt routes they want to do the FAs of?

Perhaps the person putting a tenner in a bolt fund isn't so obsessed about doing FAs?

simon rawlinson - on 28 Jul 2013
It is far from a chose heap, it's really good. It is unsuitable for trad bar 2 lines ( one which litlejohn put up and I did the other )

I agree with you that bolting everything with no thought or consoltation is far from ideal, but has this really happened on gower? As a resident to the golden peninsular I love the fact I can go out trading bouldering or clip bolts , personally I see no preference in which I choose the most appropriate form of climbing for the route I'm undertaking.

I'm not sure what Adrian should be ashamed of ? He has been at the forefront of gower development in trad and sport for years I think if you saw shipwreck cove for yourself you would see its potential as a sport venue for all abilities - I guess my thought on this development is I have been asked by many local climbers if we could develop the easier lines, well yes I could but having invested hundreds of pounds already ( yes for FA I'm not saying I should not pay for this ) but I am not willing to splash the cash on 30 French 5's

If local climbers want somewhere to sport climb at these grades , in an is iliac setting that has no effect on the local trad climbing ( or future trad climbing ) I don't see the harm? Why should this Idilic spot be for 8a climbers only when it could be enjoyed by all

Any way I may of miss you point , but I'm proud of what we have achieved at the cove, and seeing 40 people from across the UK there at weekends enjoying themselves . Backs my feeling up, of course it would be great to find a new yellow wall and put up some 3* trad lines but the previous generation seemed to look round every corner for these, my generation are looking at the remaining crags which lend themselves to bolt protection. But if I find a new yellow wall the trad rack is coming out
simon rawlinson - on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to steveej: actually be glad of the help if your serious ? Already a few others interested in helping so feel free to join in I'm meeting land owner in the next week to discuss how and when and can then give info etc...
simon rawlinson - on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to Goucho: fair point , I apologise
Kyle Warlow - on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to steveej:
> (In reply to Kyle Warlow)
>
>
> I can't believe people are so foolish to give money to others for them to do the first ascent?!!*&?

If you believe climbers like Simon and Adrian are only doing this to bag more FA's then, well... as I said...

> Why don't you stick your hand in your pocket, buy some bolts and get down their doing your own routes. Or are you a hero worshiper?

I have no interest in bolting a new route. I have little interest in climbing on bolts. Chances are I won't even climb the routes when they are put up. I am predominantly a trad climber and have climbed at almost every trad venue on Gower. It is on my doorstep and Gower is probably my favourite area out of everywhere I have ever been. It is an amazing place. I have been down to Shipwreck Cove, looked at the venue, and have no interest in the place as a trad venue and can't see that others will either. If local climbers want to utilise it as a sports venue, a venue for all levels of climbers, then all the best to them. They aren't hurting anyone. The day they try to bolt classic/established/loved trad venues then I will be the first in line to protest, and chop bolts (if it gets that far). I really can't see this happening though.

I also fail to see how this is just a way for them to make money, as you suggest. It will probably cost them money (and time) in the long run.

Hero worship? Far from it.

Kyle.

steveej - on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to TobyA: this isn't a bolt fund.

bolt funds are like for like replacement, not for someone to use to put up their own new routes. Its not what you do, but how you do it. Money in climbing has never produced anything positive and I can't see this beiung any different.

Simon in his comment above doesn't want to spend his own money bolting low grade routes. Fair enough, so why not leave it to someone else. Or are you and your mates the only people allowed to bolt?

My opinion is he should leave it for someone else. Its not like there's a shortage of sport climbing in s.wales.

Oh, and at the same time, were are having known historical adventure cliffs being installed with bolted belays.

S.wales seems to be a bit of a mess.
steveej - on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to Kyle Warlow:

what, like the well known adventure cliff of Ogmore getting bolted belays?

On shipwreck cove, its not bolting per se, its the 'wholesale' bolting nature of the arrangements herein that I dislike.

Bolt funds have always been for like for like replace of worn fixed gear. Now were moving into a whole new realm of sponsored bolting.

If your argument stands true, then the guidebook should read FFA, 1st ascent paid for by Mr XYZ, with no mention of the bolter. I wonder how keen they would be then?

Whats in it for them?

martinph78 on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to steveej:
> As an aside, Quarries which are man made then fine

Not fine, please be careful making sweeping statements like that. Just because YOU think it's fine doesn't make it so. Quarried rock has played an important part in trad history and shouldn't be considered fine for bolting just because it's a quarry.

I find the recent comments about bolting on UKC lately quite worrying. Here are a few things I've read this week (on this forum):

Dirty lines, bolt them.
Not climbed often, bolt it.
Man made (quarry), bolt it.
Difficult top-outs, bolt it.
Rubbish final pitch, bolt it.
Too hard for the majority to climb, bolt it.
No leader protection (see point above), bolt it.
Can't afford trad gear, bolt it.
Trad climbers are stuck in the past, move on. Bolt it.

So whilst your comment may seem innocuous to you, it, like the list above, adds to the growing mind-set of bolting on UKC. Climbs aren't limited to the few because they're not bolted. They're only limited to those with no patience. Bolting takes that choice away.

It won't stop at the odd venue. As those venues become more popular demand for sport routes will increase and pressure on other venues to be bolted will increase also. The arguments listed above won't be arguments any longer, they'll become an accepted attitude towards venues that will lead to them getting bolted also.

This isn't in reference to Gower specifically, but it is in reference to the spate of bolting threads that I've read this week on UKC.





irish paul - on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to steveej: S.Wales seems to be a bit of a mess? Based on what exactly? I'm predominantly a trad climber and for the last few years i've happily driven the extra half hour to pembroke at weekends as I've preferred the climbing out that way. Went to shipwreck on Saturday and my jaw dropped on walking around the corner and seeing such a crag on Gower, and the climbing certainly left me keen to return. The fact the intention is to continue development of a spread of grades seems great and the Funding response seems to show quite alot of people agree!

Maybe worth going down there and see what's going on before slagging alot of good work off.
steveej - on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to Martin1978:

Martin....Im just stating what was agreed at the last major bolting discussion (concencus) and what is stated in the guidebooks for the local area.

Its not a sweeping a statement, but yes, I agree with your points about all the excuses being used.
martinph78 on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to steveej: Yeah, sorry, I have read your comments on the thread about Ogmore and tend to agree with them. I didn't make the link to the local agreement in my quoting of you above.

My fear is that more and more precedents will be set and it will become more widespread. "It's ok to bolt a quarry in South Wales so why not the North East of England", for example.



steveej - on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to irish paul:

based on 18 years of climbing there. Climbing all over the world, trad, sport, ice, alpine, winter alpine, big walls, expedition.....

We should be aiming towards a model where trad and sport happily co exist based on concencus. The problem here isn't bolting a sport defined crag, its the whole sale bolting where people pay to have bolts put up!!!! can you not see the repurcussions of this?

At the same time, we also have historical adventure trad crags getting bolted belays in the same s.wales area... Have you not spotted a theme here?

JoshOvki on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to steveej:
> Simon in his comment above doesn't want to spend his own money bolting low grade routes. Fair enough, so why not leave it to someone else. Or are you and your mates the only people allowed to bolt?

Personally I would much rather someone like Simon who knows what he is doing bolting the routes than some randomer that is just giving it a go.

I am primarily a trad climber and the only worry I have about this is that the bolts will end up spreading out onto other sections of the gower. South Wales does have a lot of bolted climbs, but it also has a lot of trad climbs and a few mix and match climbs.
steveej - on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to Martin1978: its a shame people in south wales at the moment seem to have gone bolt mad
steveej - on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to JoshOvki:

Bolts are spreading on Gower. This isn't about sports climbing, its about the ''whole sale bolting'' - the general public paying to have sports routes put up...which is massively different to someone choosing and working and funding their own bolted sport climbs.

Id like to know where Adrian is taking this. Onced hes finished with shipwreck cove, where next?

Ive seen whats gone on in s.wales over the last 7 years. We have an abundance of mid grade sport climbing compared to rest of the UK.

Unfortunately, we also have bolted belays at Ogmore. A well known adventure cliff.
JoshOvki on 28 Jul 2013
In reply to steveej:

I know they are, but this isn't about the Gower as a whole, this is about one section that has limited opportunity for trad climbing. If people where only to bolt climbs that they wanted to work then their would be no easy/moderate sport climbing at all. Not everyone is a trad climber, and this is one heck of a venue for sport climbing bringing more climbers down to the Gower, all it needs now is a decent climbers pub.

I too have seen what is going on in South Wales, and don't like some of the areas that have been bolted (who in their right mind would have bothered bolting something like Oakdale [the most dampest darkest pile of crud that has ever existed]), and extra bolts put in on Navigation Quarry but I really do think that is different to this venue.

As for the bolts down Ogmore I can see why they where place, but I don't like that they where. It takes away from the venue.
steveej - on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to JoshOvki:

this isn't about bolting. This is about ''whole sale'' bolting - Raising cash to fund first ascents.

Given everything else that's been going on in S.Wales its a sad state of affairs.
JoshOvki on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to steveej:

Or it could be seen as raising cash to fund outdoor routes that are accessible to a range of climbers and not just the hardcore ones?
Jamie B - on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to JoshOvki:

> Or it could be seen as raising cash to fund outdoor routes that are accessible to a range of climbers and not just the hardcore ones?

Many such routes already exist, but new climbers are increasingly unwilling to climb them because they don't have bolts in them. For more and more climbers, bolts are not a means train for and augment trad, but the only type of climbing they understand. This is sad, but undeniable.

JoshOvki on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

Are you sure it isn't that many new climbers are increasingly unwilling to climb them because they lack the knowledge to climb trad?

This is sad, but to me what is more sad is climbers going inside on a nice hot sunny day instead of being out and enjoying real rock.
Jamie B - on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to JoshOvki:

Learning to climb trad isn't difficult, most of us managed to figure it without undue drama. But I guess we didn't have the easy option of lots of F4s and F5s to climb instead.
JoshOvki on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

I agree it isn't, I managed quite happily quite quickly. This doesn't mean it is the same for everyone, or everyone wants to. I was also in the convenient position of having access to a rack.

Some people are not that lucky, and don't have someone to show them the ropes so to speak. Heck climbing has changed a lot since I started that is for sure! Their is more participation now for starters.

This is about a bit of rock, that doesn't suit for trad climbing but could be an amazing feature to the Gower for climbers of a wide range of sport grades. It can also be useful for trad climbers as a training aid.
Jamie B - on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to JoshOvki:

> I managed quite happily quite quickly. This doesn't mean it is the same for everyone, or everyone wants to. I was also in the convenient position of having access to a rack.
> Some people are not that lucky, and don't have someone to show them the ropes so to speak. Heck climbing has changed a lot since I started that is for sure! Their is more participation now for starters.

I think beginners are more timorous nowadays, and less willing to engage in the networking required to gain trad mentors.
ian Ll-J - on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to UKC News: I'm a tad confused why UKC are supporting this, not that I have a problem with new routers being supported, but a while back my post was pulled by the moderators when I asked for similar support for projects in North Wales. Stropey emails from the mods followed, so not impressed with UKC's double standards! Having invested a considerable amount of time, money and effort developing routes in North Wales I will feel a bit cheated if other first ascentionists are given donations but on the other hand would be happy for some support myself...
In reply to steveej:

> bolt funds are like for like replacement

Not always. Definitely not in my local area

> Simon in his comment above doesn't want to spend his own money bolting low grade routes.

He didn't say that he wasn't ready to bolt lines like that, just that it's too expensive for him to buy all the hardware.

> Fair enough, so why not leave it to someone else. Or are you and your mates the only people allowed to bolt?

The people "allowed" to bolt should be the people who know how to do it safely and competently. I imagine that 99% of British climbers who can climb 5+ or 6a have no idea how to bolt safely, and I suspect it's not much less a percent at 7a. My local climbing association organises courses for people want to make sport routes, where they cover both the ethical and technical issues. Only after that will they provide you with bolts and the drill.

Most people can't be arsed to equip routes, it's lots of work regardless of what people think of the outcome. Most people would much prefer to chip in to a fund and let someone else do the actual work.
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In reply to steveej:

> At the same time, we also have historical adventure trad crags getting bolted belays in the same s.wales area...

I thought it was a bolted abseil point, with bolts used instead of hammering in an ab stake?
3leggeddog on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to ian Ll-J:
> (In reply to UKC News) I'm a tad confused why UKC are supporting this, not that I have a problem with new routers being supported, but a while back my post was pulled by the moderators when I asked for similar support for projects in North Wales. Stropey emails from the mods followed, so not impressed with UKC's double standards! Having invested a considerable amount of time, money and effort developing routes in North Wales I will feel a bit cheated if other first ascentionists are given donations but on the other hand would be happy for some support myself...

Either you are not one of the cool kids or you don't pay ukc to advertise your wares. I'll let you decide which.

This stinks a bit and appears to my cynical eye as a step along the road to pay for climb crags.
Ollie B - on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to steveej)
>
> [...]
>
> I thought it was a bolted abseil point, with bolts used instead of hammering in an ab stake?

Thats right, and its not bolted belays on every route as steveej seems to think. Im not sure he's actually been to ogmore recently, if he had he might be slightly less worked up based on hearsay and rumour.
winhill - on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to ian Ll-J:
> (In reply to UKC News) I'm a tad confused why UKC are supporting this, not that I have a problem with new routers being supported, but a while back my post was pulled by the moderators when I asked for similar support for projects in North Wales. Stropey emails from the mods followed, so not impressed with UKC's double standards! Having invested a considerable amount of time, money and effort developing routes in North Wales I will feel a bit cheated if other first ascentionists are given donations but on the other hand would be happy for some support myself...

Is the difference here that UKC were involved before the post, giving them a chance to manage it in a manner they saw fit, whereas yours was the other way round?
El3ctroFuzz - on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to steveej: Are you an idiot? Or just a troll?
johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to Ollie B:
> (In reply to TobyA)
> [...]
>
> Thats right, and its not bolted belays on every route as steveej seems to think.

Ach, twaddle, man. He didn't say anything of the kind. And a belay at the top of the crag is still a 'belay'.

jcm
3 Names - on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to El3ctroFuzz:

Steveej has valid input in this debate. Is that yours?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: He did say "bolted belays" - are there numerous ones then, be they abseil points or belays? I thought the original thread was about one but don't remember exactly.

I've got nothing against abseil stakes if they are safe and not causing problems with the land owners, hence it would seem to be hypocritical of me to get that upset a couple of bolts doing the same thing. But Steveej wrote about multiple bolted belay points which is another kettle of fish, particularly on a cliff with multipitch routes.

Martin Haworth on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to UKC News: Why isn't the crag suitable for trad?
steveej - on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to TobyA:

Have you been to Ogmore? I happend to grow up 2 miles from it. It's a single pitch sea cliff <50m high (with a sprinkling of multi pitch routes).

So bolted abseil points are bolted belays at the top of the cliff on what is a sometimes loose adventure crag. Having terrible anchors at the top of the cliff is part of the fun/adventure.

Not everyone wants to make things safe and convenient all the time.
mattrm - on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously) He did say "bolted belays" - are there numerous ones then, be they abseil points or belays? I thought the original thread was about one but don't remember exactly.
>
> I've got nothing against abseil stakes if they are safe and not causing problems with the land owners, hence it would seem to be hypocritical of me to get that upset a couple of bolts doing the same thing. But Steveej wrote about multiple bolted belay points which is another kettle of fish, particularly on a cliff with multipitch routes.

There are multiple bolts and stakes of varying ages. The oldest bolts / fixed metalwork are probably 20 years old. Well at least I've seen a climber saying (on Facebook) that they first climbed at Ogmore 18 years ago and that there were bolts there then.

If you're really that interested, I could take some photos of the bolts, as I live a 10 minute drive away from the crag. I often run along the cliff top on longer training runs and I do lots of bouldering there.

To describe it, there's a large grass slope (it's horrible) leading to the top of the cliff, where there is a small ledge a couple of foot wide, which has some bolts in the lumps of rock that make up the ledge. There's also some stakes driven into the top of the ledge. When I was last there, I saw no more than a handful of bolts. Three or Four. And it's mostly just one bolt and you can often back the bolt up either on a stake or with a bit of gear. There's a number of sections of the cliff that I've not climbed at which have posts stuck in. Not sure if there are bolts there.

Honestly tho, if you've never climbed at Ogmore, you don't know how awful the top outs are. They really are grim. However the main parts have really good rock in the most part. It's a great crag, well worth a visit if you like hard trad routes. The only multipitch routes are traverses, it's only about 30-40 meters high.

winhill - on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to steveej:
> (In reply to JoshOvki)
>
> Bolts are spreading on Gower. This isn't about sports climbing, its about the ''whole sale bolting'' - the general public paying to have sports routes put up...which is massively different to someone choosing and working and funding their own bolted sport climbs.

Shocking news from er, 2009.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=48230

Council Fund New Sport Crag - Local Shops Buy Route Names
by Kevin Avery - UKC Jul/2009
In reply to mattrm: Thanks Matt for the accurate description from a local. I'd love to climb at Ogmore but not had the chance/right partner when down that way. I was at Ogmore beach about 10 days ago and it was lovely although covered in rubbish. My mate who I was there with had already spent a couple of hours collecting rubbish on Porthcawl beach earlier that day. I know it's not the same thing, but it somewhat puts discussion over climbers leaving things behind (bolts) in context.

We climbed at Box Bay the next day and I set up a top rope for the kids all to climb something. It's very easy to make a four point equalised belay there, why would anyone go to the effort of bolting it? This is why I suspect that ab point bolts at Ogmore don't have implications for Pembroke or the Gower, and aren't really the same as bolted belays.
steveej - on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to TobyA:

Toby, people have been climbing at Ogmore for a long time and have happily managed without bolted abseil/belays until now.

What do you think has changed to justify them now being required?

The rock hasn't changed, the sea hasn't changed. But maybe the people have changed?

Goucho on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to steveej:
> (In reply to TobyA)
>
> Toby, people have been climbing at Ogmore for a long time and have happily managed without bolted abseil/belays until now.
>
> What do you think has changed to justify them now being required?
>
> The rock hasn't changed, the sea hasn't changed. But maybe the people have changed?

There's an ever increasing 'wall-bred' climbing population, who can only do an impression of a rabbit caught in a trucks headlights, when confronted by anything which isn't bolted.

Sign of the nanny times unfortunately.

remus - on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to Goucho:
> (In reply to steveej)
> [...]
>
> There's an ever increasing 'wall-bred' climbing population, who can only do an impression of a rabbit caught in a trucks headlights, when confronted by anything which isn't bolted.
>
> Sign of the nanny times unfortunately.

And these people are going to ogmore are they? Can I buy tickets?

Goucho on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to remus:
> (In reply to Goucho)
> [...]
>
> And these people are going to ogmore are they? Can I buy tickets?

I have 100 available for 10 each, but for an extra 15, I can provide a small number of fully upholstered 'leather wing chairs', with prime positions, including on site 'silver service' catering.
ian Ll-J - on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to UKC News: If it's now acceptable to ask for donations to develop new routes / crags, I am now accepting donations for a new crag in North Wales (will need approx 60 bolts) and also for further new routes in the slate quarries including more multi pitch sport. Apologies for briefly hijacking this thread but it's such a good idea and now that it's acceptable in the eyes of UKC defo keen to jump on the band wagon before it gets too competitive. On the off chance that anyone's keen to help please email via my user name. Thanks in advance...
In reply to steveej:

> Toby, people have been climbing at Ogmore for a long time and have happily managed without bolted abseil/belays until now.


Well, that's not what Matt said - he thinks some have been there for 20 years. Are there ab stakes in the ground?
mattrm - on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to steveej)
>
> [...]
>
>
> Well, that's not what Matt said - he thinks some have been there for 20 years. Are there ab stakes in the ground?

I'm going off what others have said for the 18 years figure. Could be wrong. However they aren't new and some of them are definitely fairly old. There are definitely a number of rusting ab stakes at the top of the cliff.

steveej - on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to TobyA: there have not been bolts there for before. There has been an assortment of home made iron mongery (different forms of stakes) in the ground for a long time. The best anchor is a galvanised scaffolding pole that's been there since at least 1995.

I've been climbing there since I was 16 years old as my local crag, so am aware of what has been there since then (1995).

Ive commented on the other thread about Ogmore so best we take the discussion about Ogmore there.
MJ - on 29 Jul 2013
In reply to TobyA:


Well, that's not what Matt said - he thinks some have been there for 20 years. Are there ab stakes in the ground?

I've climbed there on and off for about 20 years. Not sure of the exact vintage, but there's definitely been the odd abseil/belay bolt at Ogmore for quite sometime...
As for abseil/belay stakes, there are numerous scattered around of various quality, but that's probably the same for a lot of crags.
There's also some 'specials' there as well, such as gate hinges and other hardware and sundry that could be hammered into the rock.
simon rawlinson - on 30 Jul 2013
In reply to UKC News:

there have definitely been bolts on top of ogmore in a variety of spots for over 18 years , admitadly these sound like new ones ( maybe replacements ) previously there was an assortment of normal stakes, drilled and glued reinforced rods plus expansion bolts, having also been a local for 18years I can say I have never seen s bolt on the crag nor would I want to. It is an incredible place to climb at all grades. Im gonna head down tomorrow and take some pics for the next area meeting so if your keen to have a say please come along it can make a huge difference.

On a side note I find it interesting that some climbers feel that a new climber has to climb trad? A large portion of modern uk climbers are introduced in a sport climbing setting and naturally progress to climbing on bolts. I dont see this as a less valid pass time than some one wobbling there way up some trad route , both are fantastic pass times. I mention this as I introduce large numbers of young climbers to climbing ( on bolts ) and they are having a great time travelling to new and exciting places meeting new friends, and have experiences that will be with them for life.
Some of these climbers stick to sport some go on to alpine ambitions and all in between

surely when one has no impact on the other it should be celebrated not condemned as a poor man's version as you feel what you do is best ?

Agreed in some cases the line is crossed and we must do all we can to safe guard our traditional heratige, go to area meetings have your say

ogmore would indeed be one of these places, yellow wall or 3 cliffs examples of others that I never want to see bolted

Si
bouldery bits - on 31 Jul 2013
In reply to UKC News:

Surf and clip anyone? Sounds like a good idea!
stroppygob - on 01 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News: So put me right one this, (I've never bolted, nay climbed even, a "sport" route*.)

If I have the money and time, I can lob bolts into this cliff to my own choosing?

I'm a crap climber, so I can bolt everything down to about VS 4c level?

I'm not short of a few bob, nor overly busy at the moment, may have a crack at it.



*"Sport route" must be the most ironic name ever
chris wyatt - on 12 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News: Just read the thread so here's my tuppence worth.

1) I personally prefer trad generally and I live in Swansea
2) A lot of people in S Wales enjoy sport routes and there is a demand for more to go at.
3) The guys who have put bolts in are pretty responsible on the whole- Although, personally, I would take issue with a very small proportion of the bolting that has taken place.
4) We dont have bolt wars down here whatever is going on elsewhere!
5) This particular project seems like a good Idea to me. Adrian and co are offering to do a public service, not pandering to their egos or trying to bag new routes.
6) It would be nice if people making contribution to the debate actually gave their name. You cant argue properly with an internet phantom! (Troll or whatever)
will - on 13 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News: Hi Folks. i just wanted to say thanks to the bolters, for offering to put there own time into placing bolts on the lower grade climbs at shipwreck cove.

I think its a fantastic venue with real potential. Please dont get me wrong im primarily a trad climber, but now i can take the little one to the beach, and let them play whilst i climb well bolted routes, and even get my partner climbing.. Climbing is a sport shared by all, everyone deserves to be able to enjoy it and just because some climbers dont trad climb, doesn't make them any less than trad climbers.. at the end of the day we all do it for the joys of it.

Its great that the routes that can be trad climbed have been left. and ill look forward to contributing to the fund.

Thanks again, and ill look forward to hearing when the lower grade routes are ready for climbing. Also im not a bolter but i am willing to give a hand if needed, just drop me a message.

Many thanks again.
Simon Caldwell - on 28 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:
Just back from an excellent weekend on Gower. Not sure where all the climbers were though. Despite superb weather, we saw just 3 other pairs on Saturday (at Fall Bay), nobody at all on Sunday or Monday. Paviland looked like it had hardly been climbed on for years. Is everybody out clipping bolts instead these days?
GrahamD - on 28 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

If its too steep and holdless for normal climbing, just what constitutes lower grade climbs ? most people on UKC would construe that as 6a and below, I think.

And just what does 'strictly in accordance with local ethics mean' ?
pebbles - on 28 Aug 2013
In reply to Toreador: pembroke was swarming :-)
ads.ukclimbing.com
victorclimber - on 28 Aug 2013
In reply to Toreador: what about Gogarth for some bolts make it nice and safe ...
goi.ashmore - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to: All

There was a BMC Area meeting at Boulders last night (03 September).

Simon Rawlinson gave an excellent and balanced presentation about the recent and proposed developments at Shipwreck Cove, carefully spelling out how the National Trust had been consulted.

A variety of climbers (some life locals, some recent incomers, people who had recently taken up the sport, people who had developed the area trad and sport over the last 40 years) discussed the issue in a local, Gower and National context.

None of the less reasonable and less informed voices on this forum seemed to be present. Perhaps they didn't care enough to write to the chair or feel it was important to turn up, or perhaps they did and were persuaded by the arguments of people familiar with the issue, the crag or the area.

This must be true, because not a single vote was cast against the proposal, although as matter of record, the relevant BMC reps (past & present), 1 other and Simon, being a gentleman and wanting to ensure that other people's voices driving the debate, abstained.

The sniping and disinformation which has charaterised some posting here did nothing but encourage the attendees to support the developers, who can now begin to develop an excellent venue for all to enjoy at their leisure!
dave657 on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to goi.ashmore:

I was at the meeting last night and would like to thank Si and the others involved for developing what sounds like an excellent area. Hopefully I'll get to climb there at Gower festival this weekend, although by the sounds of things it could be quite busy!
John Bullock - on 05 Sep 2013
In reply to goi.ashmore: Hear,hear! Simon is to be commended on presenting such a clear and unbiased review of the proposal and its history, and I'm pleased that it was so well supported by the assembled gathering. I'm only slightly disappointed that none of the anonymous posters who have given him and Adrian Berry such a hard time couldn't be bothered to turn up or communicate their feelings to the chair. UKC should really stop forum posters using pseudonyms as I think it encourages an often misinformed, ill-considered and sometimes frankly insulting tone. Perhaps if posters had to use their own names they might think a bit harder about how and what they were saying?
sam - on 06 Sep 2013
Exciting times! The development of this magnificent cliff will surely produce one of the best climbing venues in Britain and its right on my doorstep!
Thanks to Simon and Adrian for pursuing the vision, everybody who has backed the project and the National Trust for allowing the area to be used for everyone to enjoy.

Note to the few people who have been so negative towards the project and the people fronting it:- The climbers of South Wales will decide the future/development of climbing in our area. It will be done fairly and in the best interest of our area. Our climbing community is made up of people who pursue all types of climbing and who are keen to protect Traditional climbing in our area but also allow other disciplines of the sport to progress.
Please feel free to come down and see the place for yourself. You'll find a great crew of locals who will be welcoming and also guide you to the best coffee and cake!

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