UKC

hows that for a specific thread title ;-D
looking for recommendations for good early E1s to have a crack at in yorkshire or the peak. Not my first - I'v led a handful, mostly either offwidths or "easy but boldish" slabs (motorcade, easter rib..), what I'd really like is to try some proper but reasonably protected E1s. Oh, and I'm just under 5'4", so will be left whinging and sulking by reachy moves. Any suggestions? other than "go off and learn to play rounders instead"?

In reply to pebbles: A couple a Gardom's that I enjoyed; Moyer's Buttress and Whillian's Blind Variant (a continuation pitch to Gardoms Unconquerable). Both no pushover at E1, both quite well protected. Maybe not the best suggestions, but then I'm not that solid at the grade, these just stand out in my memory. (Theres a HVS round the corner from Moyers thats probably the biggest sandbag ever and worth avoiding unless you want to train for The Rasp!!!)

For bold but easy; Morrisons redoubt at stanage popular, fringe benefit at rivelin, as is 'better late than never'; safe but with a bold feel.

One to avoid (especially in current conditions) is Mississippi Variant Direct. Loooong reach to poor slopers, felt 5c for me and im 5'10!!!

Now can someone better post some suggestions please...?

In reply to dr_botnik: thanks for the 'one to avoid', also very useful info!!!! think I know the HVS at gardoms you mean, I headed for it, took one look and carried on walking

In reply to pebbles: That would be Biven's Crack, I'm guessing...?

In reply to David Alcock: Yep. There are solid jams up until the traverse, but its just so steep!

In reply to David Alcock: correct!

In reply to pebbles:

On grit, Long Tall Sally is a traditional early E1 and isn't reachy. Make sure you have the right small wires though. Safety Net is a bit more powerful at start if you are short but perfectly do-able, and is pretty safe.

In general, limestone is friendlier than grit if you are short. My other half is 5'2 and has never been stopped on limestone or mountain routes through lack of reach - there's always a way to climb up to hold you can't reach.

Try Pocket Sympnony at Beeston Tor, or Yew Tree Wall on Tissington Spires, or The Nails at Staden (access permitting).

In reply to pebbles:
Im of average height but some routes of the grade that seem pretty unreachy

Three Pebble slab- (yep its soft but if you stay on line without trending left it's worth E1)

Strapiombante- Safe, with lots of poorer intermediate holds if you can't stretch. The last move is a reach but the direct finish is on non-reachy but poorer holds.

Tower Chimney (stanage)- constricted back and footing where I think being a shortarse would be a distinct advantage.

Hearse arete- Nice varied, interesting route although a steep finish (which can be sidetracked) A good time of year for this too as the start is usually green and slimy.

Two-sided triangle- right next to three pebble slab and about the same grade. Airy padding on good ripples.

Namenlos- Soft but good, a tricky crack followed by a little runout which feels airy but is actually protectable.

In reply to deacondeacon: In reply to deacondeacon: yes, strapo, thats a good call! hard i know, but safe to fall off. done 2 sided triangle and 3ps already- theyre in my handful so far. tower chimney looks a giggle, looks suspiciously pea pod like, might try and find a victim to persuade to buddy up for that! namenlos if all potential victims tell me to get lost ;-D

In reply to pebbles:


Motorcade at Froggatt is a nice E1
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10918

In reply to pebbles:

Limestone? Rarely reach dependant at this grade.

In reply to Bulls Crack: bit of a grit addict ;-D

In reply to pebbles:

The mincer at the roaches is "HVS" although it seems to have many failures from people who should be comfortable at this level and is apparently hard for the tall but this might be an excuse...

In reply to pebbles:

Most of the well protected E1s I can think of on grit are all tough or desperate at the grade! Things like Z Climb Eliminate at the Cliff or the Embankment routes (3,4 and Time For Tea Original) at Millstone might fit the bill. Otherwise things like The Waster, Frensis Direct, Tufted Crack etc are all very safe but at the harder end of the grade.

In reply to Pagan: What about The Tippler, one of the best E1's on grit and not reach dependant, the traverse is a bit bold but I bet these days you can get a friend or something in it. While there have fun on The Unprintable, being short possibly helps on that but be careful not to block up the crucial jam to pull into the layback with too much gear.

In reply to deacondeacon:


Seems to me this is either HVS or E2, depending what gear you allow yourself, but not E1!

In reply to Pagan:

Embankment 3 I would have thought excellent for the smaller person. There's gear every inch if you want, and with smaller hands you'll have more hold options than the rest of us.

In reply to Al Evans: Forgot to suggest Embankment routes 3 + 4

In reply to pebbles:

You need to get out more!

In reply to pebbles:

If you like offwidths then Frensis Direct may suit. It's no pushover and a bit steep getting into the wide finish but it's safe, the good gear's at your feet when you fall.

jk

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Well it felt pretty standard E1 to me and I didnt place any gear off route. Although I have seconded it since and a mate put gear in the flake which definitely helped a lot.

The point is redundant now though as Pebbles has already climbed it.

In reply to Coel Hellier: manned up for this and did it without any side runners . did faff a fair bit before committing though!

In reply to pebbles:

Blimey, I would have said this was a spectacularly poor recommendation for an easyish E1 lacking reach issues!

Hearse Arete is a good suggestion though.

In reply to jkarran: yes, that ones deffo on the list as its one of my local (ish) crags

In reply to Dave Garnett:

only possible if you can find an 8th day for the week

In reply to pebbles:
You could always warm up on Frensis indirect

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Nah, standard grit E1. Those daft little routes with an 5b move a few meters off the deck and no gear are E1. This one is particularly daft I think given just how close the good holds and gear are while you risk breaking your ankles - absolute nonsense, but a fun little buzz if you're into that sort of thing.

In reply to Dave Garnett:
She's not looking for easy ones though. Pebbles is after proper E1s which are reasonably protected. With the direct finish I really don't think that Strapiombante is reachy.
Although admittedly I'm not vertically challenged with a pretty much average height of 5'9"

In reply to deacondeacon: yeah, I do know this route and I'm ok to try something hard if the fall is safe, and I'v seen enough lobs off this to know it is! not saying I'd like the fall or not wibble, but can then man up (metaphoricaly speaking)

In reply to pebbles: The Tippler at Stanage and Strapiombo at Froggatt are both really good E1s and it might actually be advantageous to be shorter on these.

In reply to pebbles:

In order of difficulty (as I found them) all of these are solid E1 with excellent gear:

Embankment 4 - Millstone
Safety Net - Roaches (not sure how the move off the ground goes for the short !)
Encouragement - Hen Cloud
Galileo - Shining Clough

In reply to GrahamD:


I thought the first pitch was bold. And reachy.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I didn't remember it that way - more technical.

Anyone with a better memory than I have could comment - its a while since I led it but I don't remember ever feeling run out on it.

In reply to GrahamD:

Safety Net has a desperate move on it if you're short. The start is fine, just a bit burly, but there's a move higher up (right at the top of the slabby bit) that I couldn't do at all and felt like solid 6a. The OP might be ok though as they're a bit taller than me (I'm 5'2" in shoes, if that helps).

In reply to Rachel Slater: Definitely not helpful to be tall on The Tippler

In reply to Jon Stewart:

The first pitch is bold but I don't recall it being reachy. Very technical IIRC.

In reply to deacondeacon:

It is pretty reachy if you're short. I'm 5'2" and really struggled to even second it at a time when I was happily leading E2--in fact I'm not even sure if I managed it.

I was going to second the vote for Millstone. Frensis Direct is good too, and no reach issues there.

In reply to climbingpixie:

"In shoes"--now that is seriously grasping at straws

In reply to deacondeacon:

All of the above are HVS. They are neither that hard or dangerous really!

Yet another recomendation for Strampiombante, its a good E1 though, highly recommended, and not all that reachy. Solid at the grade and safe as houses.

In reply to alicia: alicia and climbingPixie, you clearly know the shortarse score, any reccomendations you can make would be great!!!

In reply to ianstevens:

I did state that they're soft. Wether they're HVS or E1 is debatable but guidebooks and the logbook are pointing towards E1 at present. I'm not going to get into an argument about the grades though, three pebble slab and Namenlos can feel trivial when they go well and a nightmare when they don't.
As for Two-sided triangle being safe, you're just plain wrong.

In reply to duchessofmalfi:

Better than being tall on Mincer. That route should be called 'shortarse's revenge' (or just 'massive bitch').

In reply to pebbles:

I've not done loads of E1s on grit, in fact looking through my logbook the vast majority of my grit E1s have been on quarried grit so not even 'proper' gritstone climbing, or else they've been bold soft-touch slabs! A few of these have been mentioned above but I'll reiterate the non-reachy ones I've done:

Embankment 3 & 4 are both really steady, did them both last year and they're definitely not reachy. Dexterity is also safe and non-reachy, just bloody hard!
Billingsgate is good and well-protected with small wires
Shiver's Arete at Wilton 3 is a soft touch but nice technical crux
Great Peter at Lawrencefield - hard start then nice finger locking
First Finale at Anglezarke

If you ever want any non-gritstone recommendations I have a lot more!

In reply to pebbles:

Hmm...The Fin, at Burbage North, is totally safe and probably actually easier for the short.

If you do go to Millstone, Dexterity was good.

The Toy (Curbar) is very safe but does have a reachy move towards the top; it's maybe half a tech grade harder for the short. But I thought it was actually kind of satisfying to have to work harder there--it's not as frustrating as some reachy moves!

In reply to alicia:


FTFY

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I'd love to make that my justification for failing at the onsight...but E2 seems a little optimistic.

In reply to alicia:

I could name 100 E2s that are easier than The Toy.

In reply to Jon Stewart, alicia, climbing pixie etc: cheers all, plenty to look at there!! will now construct myself a target list

In reply to alicia:

I can assure you you won't get many people supporting your E1 theory for The Toy. Most people think its hard E2 and a good number think E3 (for the true onsight of course).

In reply to the OP

Some good suggestions above the best of which I'd say were for slabs Embankment 3 and 4, for a roof Hearse Arete (sneaking off right is cheating so it doesn't count) and for in between Willians Blind variant. Limestone would be better still as you get more intermediates and less gritstone weirdness.

In reply to climbingpixie:

I wasn't sure how hard the start of Safety Net was for the short - I've climbed it with someone short but they are very strong. No harm in trying - there is solid gear above your head for the move off the ground.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I have seen more, and quite long, falls from the top of Toy than any other route at Curbar, it's easily 6a and is definitely not a shorty's route.

In reply to Al Evans:

Got sandbagged with it as a warm up and was warmed up all right! Would shudder to recommend it (unless someone wants a vicious little fight).

(Shorty) Mick

In reply to GrahamD:

The move off the ground is fine. It's the move higher up, when you're reaching for the overlap, that's desperate if you can't reach. I had to pull on the rope on second despite usually being fairly competent on moves up to 5c. My friend could reach though and she's not loads taller than me so the OP might be ok.

In reply to pebbles: Calamity crack at Brimham not E1 but will make you not want to bother with numbers.

In reply to climbingpixie: this is the thing taller people dont get. they are only a few inches taller and you can 'almost' reach it so it cant be much harder, can it! Also 'not tall' for a man is still very tall for most women

In reply to rob.s22: calamity crack at brimham? dont know it, its not on the ukc database. you sure its brimham?

In reply to Mick Ward:

sounds right up pebbles' street ...

In reply to Toreador: thanks, but I'll wait till I'v got comfortable with E1 before picking a fight with a tough E2. call me chicken if you like...

In reply to pebbles:

Charming Crack I suspect is what he means. Calamity Crack is in some quarry in the Chew Valley, I think. Charming C is a good tough struggle at E1, easier for those who can jam.

I've never really seen the problem with The Toy at E1, though people certainly do seem to fall off it quite a lot. It's certainly not E3 - God, imagine doing that and then wandering along and trying Vain or Cardinal's Backbone.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Brain failure, sorry. Tough E1 thats really probably an E2 to onsight: I blame having a non-climbing holiday for the first time in a decade.

In reply to Offwidth:

The Toy isn't particularly sequency or tricky, what makes it hard is that it's 7m of sustained hard 5c, and being right next to the ground you have to place gear after every move in order to protect it (god grit's annoying). Placing gear throughout stretches of 5c climbing is not what E1 is about.

If there was 2m of 4b climbing below it and 4m of 4b above it, it undoubtably have been graded E2, and would be a considered a tough, sustained one. The only reason it gets E1 is because it's short (but in fact it has a much longer section of hard climbing than most E2s).

In reply to pebbles: Already mentioned, but Tufted Crack at Ilkely. Very safe and said to be easier for those with smaller fingers

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I think it is a little sequency at the top. If you know the easier way its both easier to climb and to go for it.

In reply to climbingpixie:


Hmm, maybe you tried it wrong? Many people do a layback, step-up on the arete (smeary footholds) to reach the overlap (rather than just reaching) -- and I don't remember that bit as particularly reachy.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Or because guidebook writers are obstinate and resistant to changing grades!

In reply to Coel Hellier: but then again you are considerably taller than climbingPixie (and me)

In reply to pebbles:


Fair point, though then it would be a question of an extra smear/layback move.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Some guidebook workers on some E1's my boy (I think its E2). At least the silly sandbags are not alongside silly soft touches of a similar style like they used to be. Plus the grade variation between soft and tough crags has decreased.

I'd add that resistance to grade change can be a good thing, especially if you look at extrapolating from UKC votes for soft classic VS climbs at Stanage. I didn't mind being outvoted with this setting of safe top-end standards being clear.

Climbing Pixie is a good example of an honest reporter and other short climbers I know also felt Safety Net was hard at this point for them.

In reply to Coel Hellier: this is what I'v learnt to be wary of when getting suggestions - if you are quite tall then its not that you will deliberately sandbag a small person, its just that you wont even have been aware of the reach as an issue. we get our own back in constricted chimneys when we can lure you Big Folk into them ;-D

In reply to Offwidth:


I agree that it is hard, definitely the crux, but layback/smear hard rather than reach hard. Though perhaps a far lankier git than me could just reach up.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

I can't reach it directly, I do a little step up as you describe. Actually, I think this is the crux of the route. The gear is down by your feet and it feels a bit insecure but it's a bit technical rather than reachy (I know one 5'2 shorty with short arms who doesn't have too much trouble with it, anyway). Once you make the break you have gear all the way if you want it.

In reply to Offwidth:


Don't get me wrong, while the difficulty of The Toy is solid E2, the grade of The Toy must remain at E1 forever and ever, amen.

In reply to Offwidth:

Yes, but Toy has always been undergraded.

In reply to Al Evans: Incidently if you want a soft touch E1 at Curbar and you are tall, try Kayak, If you are short it's about 6a.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Ah, see, being a total wuss I tend to do that anyway, so no wonder it didn't feel too bad to me

In reply to pebbles:

I wouldn't necessarily get put off by the "tough E2" vote--it isn't, and it's safe and a reasonably nice route (if a bit short), and quite possibly easier for people with small fingers (though harder at the top with the reach part, but like I said the reach part isn't that bad if you don't mind pulling hard for a move or two). Could be a good option if you find yourself at Curbar anyway.

In reply to pebbles:

you were climbing the occasional E1 before you were comfortable at VS...

(I'm quite good at suggesting that other people should push themselves)

In reply to Al Evans:

I reckon the tall will find the crux higher up than the short, and when the ground is further away it hurts more !

In reply to pebbles:

I can't believe we've for this far into this thread without any mention of the old stalwarts Left Unconquerable and Millsom's Minion. Both got decent gear, neither is reachy. Also L'Horla, tough but good gear.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Millsom's Minion is not proper E1. It's a little softy that's easier than most proper HVSs.

L'horla is a great tough, well protected one though, a class act.

In reply to pebbles:

E1 routes the shortarse shouldn't go anywhere near.

Humdinger
Shortcomings
The Arete (Aldery)
Mississippi Variant Direct
Dark Continent
Eye of Faith (E1 start)
Nuke the Midges

In reply to Jon Stewart:
Millsom's Minion is not proper E1. It's a little softy that's easier than most proper HVSs.

I'd agree it is soft, although I'm reliably informed the ground under it isn't and I've seen a few very near misses with the floor on it.

In reply to Coel Hellier: duly noted! thanks!

In reply to Coel Hellier:


Yes, I've always avoided Humdinger, although Bullybones (of this parish) describes it as 'Wild Thing in the sky' and I can do Wild Thing...

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Even so, the crux is just as hard for the short as the tall find out higher up, it's just that the tall have missed the real crux which is still a very highball problem for the short.

In reply to pebbles:

Anniversary arete - Stanage
Left unconquerable - Stanage
Unprintable - Stanage
Meditation (limestone) - Chee Tor
Bicycle repair man (limestone) - Staden
Embankment 3 and 4 - Millstone
Dexterity - Millstone

Also a few good, safe routes at that grade at places like Beeston Tor and Dovedale, on limestone.

Other grit options in the peak would be things like Great Peter and Delectable Direct at Lawrencefield.

In reply to 1234None:


Yes, actually Staden is a must at sensible E1. There's half a dozen starred, well-protected routes of about this grade. Not too steep, technical rather than thuggy*, good place to push your grade.

* with the possible exception of Charas.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Are we allowed to climb at Staden at the moment ? its certainly a cracking spot for soft touch E1s

In reply to GrahamD:


Nobody seems to be being prevented from climbing. Be discreet and leave politely if asked (without giving your name) seems to be the recommended procedure.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


Which was a bit goey at its original grade of HVS...

Mick

In reply to Coel Hellier:


Surely desperate for the grade whatever shape you are. Is it really easier if you're tall? Very strenuous 5c - OK, it's very well protected. (I've only seconded this; had previously led the route by the lovely indirect way ... far better.)

In reply to Toreador: ps: put your wooden spoon away, Caldwell, I'm not falling for it ;-D

In reply to Coel Hellier:


These things never feel reachy if you can reach!

I was trying the move exactly as you've described - layback off the good hold and smear up - but I couldn't reach the overlap above. Maybe I wasn't climbing very well that day but I can't remember the last time I've been stopped by a 5b move!

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Agree. At 5'4" Eye of Faith (any way you do it) wouldn't be on my height dependent list.

I have a vague theory that steep routes are often easier for the short. Shorter levers, less body to get in the way and a tendency to develop better power because you often have no choice. Being powerful on a slab doesn't normally help, so on average success for me comes easier with steeper routes.

And if we're talking about grit, quarried grit is hardly ever height dependent. Natural grit is the most height dependent rock I've come across and I like to fantasise that I've been around the block a bit.

In reply to pebbles:

Oh come on, this thread can't be dead, I've only just found it

Stupid time difference.

In reply to Jonny2vests:


So how did you do it? Thug round the corner on hand-holds, no foot-holds, and just go for it?

In reply to Coel Hellier:

I've only done it once and it was over 6 years ago. I remember a traverse left with a strong-ish move that felt like the crux. Then amazing steep moves with thuggery (but no campusing!), which perhaps I got lucky with, it was over quickly. Maybe there was a heel hook in there?

In reply to all:

thanks for all the suggestions, got down to stanage on saturday and got up a couple, gonna go for an E1 every full day trad session now, well enthused

In reply to pebbles: well done pebbles, nice one on getting two done. How did you get on with them?

In reply to deacondeacon: i started on namenlos, which was pretty easy really, just a couple of balancy moves above gear, enjoyable though. Then Millsom's Minion, which I got a real buzz from. I found I couldnt reach the pocket staticly but could do it by working my feet up and then grabbing it, I had to make a few attempts to get up to it but you have a good resting position on the ledge to faff round on, and the gear at that point is really good. The funny thing is I had followed both routes a year or so ago and thought them scary at the time - I had just built a 'leading factor' into my head that wasnt there when I actually did go for the lead. Really nice to get a couple under my belt without major epics, its given me the confidence to go for some more