UKC

I see that a new E10 has been claimed on the N. Yorks moors by Franco. What is he basing grade on? A slew of repeats of E8,9 and 10's around the country? A confirmed history of hard sport and blocs? If the route gets repeated by a known was and the grade confirmed, I'll believe it. Until then...

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

No mention of grade on his blog: http://francocookson-climbing.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/the-mono-wall-is-climb...

In reply to Calder: It's on the logbooks as E10 7a.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

Then that's what it is until someone repeats it...

next.......

In reply to andy farnell:
It might be ... it might not. Action speaks louder than armchair incredulity. Good for Franco for climbing it, and for throwing up the challenge.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=198943

In reply to andy farnell:

Think he's been trying this for a while hasn't he? Well done for doing it I say. Regardless it may get downgraded, then again maybe not, Franco's no slouch is he.

In reply to Jon Read: The photo doesn't give much away. He could be stood on the ground or 50ft above a poor RP1. Where's the video?

Andy F

In reply to Jon Read:

Indeed. There's some good pics on his blog page,too - and it certainly looks the part.

In reply to andy farnell:

Didn't James Pearson put up something around E10 or E11 that got downgraded, so like the other posts above say, until it gets repeated then thats the grade.

Maybe give the guy some encouragement rather that knock him.

In reply to chris fox:

James had a history of hard ascents. Franco? If it stays the grade after a repeat by a well known wad, fine. Until then the grade is a guess and completely unconfirmed.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

>Until then the grade is a guess and completely unconfirmed.

Obviously. But what do you want him to do? That's his best guess. Time will tell.

Sounds like a good effort, anyway - congratulations to Franco.

jcm

In reply to andy farnell:


There are greater stakes at play with a high profile sponsored climber (who should know better) overgrading routes than an unsponsored, low profile climber like Cookson making his best guess.

Well done Franco Cookson on your project. Hope the grade turns out right.

Effort Franco! Looks great regardless of the grade.

In reply to andy farnell:

The gade is a guess but the efforts indisputable. It's obviously pretty hard and, looking at the photos, if Franco has thin fingers it may be impossible for others!

In reply to Jon Read:

He's also a poet!

"And as you set out on the wall, it waves up and looks like it's about to break right upon you. Psy mon says you're about to die. A slippidy sloppidy smear, through overhanging fear. When the foul foot slips, then off your finger rips - for tis but a pinky, deep and wedged in a hole! When the pinkies remain, then all you gain is more death. Stood, no hanging on a bulge, not made for mortal man."

In reply to andy farnell:
Whats your problem, he`s climbed it graded it, the challenge is there. Well done Franco.
Cheers sjc

In reply to Tyler: E10. On sandstone. On one of the hottest, most humid days of the year. And I've perfected cold fusion.

Andy F

In reply to sjc:

It's pretty obvious. I don't believe the grade. But I'm happy to be proved wrong.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

Yep, that's how it works in general?

In reply to andy farnell:

It's a solo, with several pinky mono holds. If you fall off at the mono, you're probably going to break your legs or worse. I think that giving it an E10 grade is quite sensible, then folk who try the repeat at least have an idea of the difficulty and danger.

Personally, I can't see it being repeated soon as it's quite specific. I doubt any of the normal suspects are going to want to trog over to do a fairly obscure route and at not very well known crag. Especially as it looks very horrible with the pinky monos.

However well done on Franco for doing it. I've been reading the blog and hoping that he'd stick it and I'm very glad to hear that he has. So congrats man! Also for bonus points this wasn't the outcome this time:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=61201

Also looking at Franco's logbook:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/showlog.html?id=106014&nstart=0&s...

I'd say he's done enough stuff at E7 to have an idea of how much harder the route is compared to E7. But I suspect you know that already.

In reply to andy farnell:



In that case 1000-1 odds that it comes in at the grade is more than fair?

I bet you £1 it does.

In reply to andy farnell:

Why not congratulate him first on what is clearly an awesome effort, regardless of the grade?

In reply to Andy Moles:

All this has reminded me, whatever happened with Chillam Balaam (sp?) Any confirmation or otherwise of the grade?

In reply to andy farnell:

Congratulations on coming across as one of the most bitter, unsympathetic persons on UKC. And that's saying quite a bit.

Congratulations to Franco on doing a route that is obviously E something hard.

In reply to andy farnell:
Maybe you don`t but you could have put it more nicely. Chuck a rope on it and come back and tell us what you think.

In reply to Niall:


Ondra confirmed it at 9b

http://www.adamondra.com/adam-ondra-climbs-chilam-balam-9b

In reply to supos:

Thanks. Bruce Hooker is my mentor and idol


No, it's claimed as E10 by someone who hasn't climbed harder than E6 outside his own area. Or climbed a confirmed E9. Just stating facts.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

Nice effort Franco! Good effort regardless of grade.

Alex

In reply to mattrm: All the stuff at E7 are new routes on local crags, with the same group of first ascensionists. So I would say he has climbed confirmed E6 nationwide?

Anyway good effort on a hard new route, but his previous history of shite talking on here won't be helping him with this audacious claim!

In reply to Niall:


Completely different, the issue with CB was not the difficulty (it only slipped one grade) but whether the first ascensionist had climbed it at all. I don't think Andy is saying Franco hasn't done the line just that it's probably not E10. E10 is certainly way beyond anything Franco has manged before .

In reply to Tyler:

By giving the route E10 Franco has chosen to make the gade front and centre of the talk about this route, people can't then complain when someone chooses to take the bait

In reply to Tyler:

>By giving the route E10 Franco has chosen to make the gade front and centre of the talk about this route

I don’t see that any choice is involved, really. If he’s going to give it a grade at all, he has to go with his best guess. I suppose it’s true that there’s a choice involved in whether to give it a grade or not, but personally I always think not doing so is pretty wanky.

jcm

In reply to shark:

You changing your name to BetFred?

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell: Well done Franco, good effort! I seconded Franco on one of his E5's a couple of years ago, I'd only seconded a few E3's before that and it felt as hard as any of those but with much less gear. So what if it's a grade or two high? Plenty of other climbers have overgraded routes and if he thinks that's the grade so be it, worst that'll happen is someone will climb it and tell him otherwise.

In reply to andy farnell:

Do you know Danby? It's north facing and takes a long time to dry out. There are plenty of crags where the super-hard routes are generally done in the summer.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:



If E10 is his truthful opinion on the grade, then your right, he has no choice but given Franco's penchant for trolling I dare say Andy suspects he might be being a bit mischievous. Good effort none the less

In reply to andy farnell:
If if repeat accents drop the grade, fair play. That picture of the pinky mono looks brutal

In reply to Tyler:

My point exactly. If Franco has crushed Equilibrium, pissed up the Cratcliffe groove or walked all over McClouds routes, then I might believe him. But, unless I'm very mistaken, he hasn't. So I don't. He can climb a bit, but E10? With a better track record he might be believed.

Andy F

In reply to the thread:

Wasn't there a bet about him headpointing Dangermouse ...?

In reply to andy farnell:

Nice one Franco, awesome effort.

In reply to andy farnell:

Franco is somewhat passionate (possibly over so) about the North York Moors and I think this is maybe one way he's trying to drum up interest in the area. Pete Whillance and Dave Armstrong did something similar when they graded Penal Servitude E5 6c - it was an attempt to prove that the Lakes wasn't a backwater for technical climbing.

I'm not sure how much climbing Franco does outside his patch but an individual or group acting in an isolated manner can slip out of line regarding grading. I'm thinking Mark Edwards and his 1980s routes that got high grades but the first repeats dropped them significantly.

I'm not sure how big the route is - maybe it should have a bouldering grade rather than a route grade. Possibly in a grey area regarding this.

ALC

In reply to andy farnell: £0.50 says this is a news story on here by Monday users being the driving force for news on here.

Good effort Franco, if you think it's H10 then good for you

In reply to andy farnell:

Did you refuse to believe Macleod's grades until he started to repeat other people's routes rather than just putting up his own?

In reply to andy farnell:

Go and repeat it and tell us the grade then

In reply to andy farnell: everyone owes me fifty pence. It's now news.

In reply to a lakeland climber: Good point.

Looking at Franco's logbook entries, he doesn't seem to have logged anything harder than E5 on 'mainstream' crags (Narcisus at Froggatt isn't E6 really - and yes I have done it), and his hardest recorded route in his beloved esoterica of the North York Moors is E8.

So this new route if it is E10, is quite a momentous leap in standard for him - even within the 'vacuum' of his bailiwick.

So there is the possibility that it's an 'emotional' grade.

In reply to andy farnell: I'm with Andy on this (no offence and respect to Franco regardless) - very hard to give credence to someone's ability to grade without feeling that they have a broad base of experience in the relevant areas; the write up refers to a Font 8A start apparently based on Franco's musings, how much Font 8A bouldering has Franco done? Hopefully enough to give a meaningful view. Overall the climbing has to be of a reasonably high standard too, somewhere around the 8a/b mark, again how much sport has Franco done at these grades?

Anyway, top effort Franco, despite the debate I'm sure it's 'up there' in terms of difficulty!

In reply to a lakeland climber:

I have to admit that was my first thought - less of a grade, more of a come-and-have-a-go-if-you-think-you're-ard-enough to the rest of the country.

In any case, it looks awesome.

In reply to andy farnell:

However hard it is it looks grim, I don't imagine there's going to be a queue!

Good effort Franco.
jk

In reply to puppythedog:


You win. http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=558675

In reply to andy farnell: Is there a decent picture of this wall anywhere? A wide angle shot from above and a cropped shot of the wall do nothing to give any perspective. I want to know how high it is!

In reply to andi turner:


Are you wondering whether you'd be able to just reach the top from the bottom and claim an E10?

In reply to Toreador:

No, because he had a history of climbing lots of hard stuff. Franco doesn't, outside his own backwater. What other 8A/+/B's has he done to compare the bloc to? Which other E9/10's outside his patch has he tried/succeeded on? AFAIK, none. Which is why I am so sceptical about his grading.

I may be completely wrong, Franco may be 100% right. Let him prove it, he's the one spouting the big numbers. If he goes and repeats other things outside N. Yorks, fab. I'll be the first to say well done, I was wrong. Until such time, I stand by my position.

Andy F

In reply to andi turner:

From Franco's blog:

"The Mono Wall- not a great line, but good, difficult climbing with a crux on the smooth top wall."

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Y6iVW8z7eBY/UfZU6BngPAI/AAAAAAAACUg/RDW84HgbqV8/s...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-fl3AuqcVaZc/USIpgrE97KI/AAAAAAAACHw/S6T7QMGBOpk/s...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-S7VcTNUiZhI/TitPe9SRmgI/AAAAAAAABUo/3am900nN5po/s...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-z7GQu_4UWoU/USIkV9CldNI/AAAAAAAACGE/1miqy--H2Og/s...

In reply to ksjs:

Now then, I should probably clear a few things up. First of all, I gave it E10 on here as there's no option for H9, H10 or H11. It's good to have it on UKC to advertise the route for future repeats and so I chose a conservative estimate. The proper grading occurs however, when I send it into Steve Crowe, for his guide - the bible of North York Moors climbing. I'll see how it fits in with other new Moors routes we do nearer the time of publication. It's best not to just hassle Steve all the time with re-grades. Second of all, I didn't say 'it is font 8a'. I said the crux is incredibly similar to, although harder than, Steve McClure's boulder problem 'the finger', (which he gave font 8a, but is perhaps more like font 7c/+).

I should probably also point out that, unlike the news report states, this is not safe. The crux is above the height of the main picture on the UKC article. It's not a boulder problem in any way. We set up a rope at the bottom of the hill to stop me rolling down a mini gorge. Without this it would be suicidally dangerous. With it you would still very probably cripple yourself/die. I don't really think of myself as someone who shies away from danger, but this was probably the most dangerous thing I've ever done.

Why Farnell chose to focus on the grade at all is beyond me. I find these 'rules' about what you can and can't do before you grade a route thoroughly ridiculous. No wonder no one is climbing hard on sedimentary outcrops any more!

Ultimately, I've always climbed alone or with chums equally inexperienced on the Moors. It's brilliant, it's free, it's thoroughly inventive. We like to climb our own way. I don't see why I should have to put my neck on the line to adhere to some norm of climbing a load of ploddy and dangerous H8s just to please some people who are too blind to see what we as climbers are capable of doing. The moves are outrageous, it tears you up. Go have a top rope.

In reply to andy farnell:

Surely you should prove it, since you're the one doubting him? Why should Franco put his life/limb on the line to satisfy someone else's idea of what routes he should climb?

In reply to Franco Cookson:


You give something E10 7a, what do you expect!

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Have you got some video footage you'll be posting up?

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Font 8A X (tr practice) Franco?

X being injury or death assured should you fall

Hard climbing, bone crushing fall.

What was it Glen Denny said...

""It is my feeling that in no other area of the country, with the possible exception of the Northeast, do so many of the climbers climb quite so much for personal publicity.... Increasingly, in the past few years, there have been those whose primary motivation in climbing is an excessive, overt desire for notoriety"......

Nice one on the climb and the publicity.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Well, Cookson, my focus on the 'conservative' grade you've give is clear, as are my reasons for doubting it. What are you basing it on? Which routes/blocs does it compare to outside the Moors? What have YOU done, say in Northumberland, Yorkshire, The Peak, The Lakes, Scotland etc that compares?

As for climbing hard on sedimentary outcrops, you ever hear about the stuff called Limestone? I believe there may be on or two tough (but probably not by your standards) things for you to try in Yorks/Peak district. There is more to climbing than the Moors.

As I stated earlier, if you can prove a history of hard things outside your area, I'll believe you. I've seen and heard of enough deluded fools to think twice when the big numbers get spouted.

Andy F

In reply to Franco Cookson:

"Regardless of the grade, the route looks like a short and intense experience, and has taken Franco two years of effort to climb, and that sort of motivation is impressive - well done Franco!"

Not my cup of tea (dunno what a mono is, and anything above E3 is just a number to me), but credit where credit is due. Well done.

In reply to andi turner: I'm not 100% on this but I think it's 12m high, I did a route to the right of it before and that is 10m and by the looks of it it's a bit more than that. 4th picture down on 23rd july entry on his blog, where the rope hangs down.

http://francocookson-climbing.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/danby-projects-and-new...

Wether it's E10 or not it looks bold so good on him, don't see anyone repeating it soon. I thought he would have used a rope for gear near the top as it looks like there's a few breaks, suppose it's over by then though. It's a shame that danby crag is north facing and that the landowner has conditions to climb there, that will restrict everyday people going, especially if their not from the area.

P.S & it's got ticks.

In reply to andy farnell:

I think some one may be a little bit bitter

In reply to andy farnell: I think you're playing the game the way Franco wants you to Andy.

Loads of publicity for him and the North York Moors - hence the reason for the grade?

i can't think of anyone who went from E8 to E10 completely missing out E9, can you?

Of course, if it has been conservatively graded, it could well be E11 or even more?????

In reply to andy farnell:

Because you're a trainspotter?

In reply to topic:

Harder than the Walk of Life, Indian Face and If 6 was 9.

Not bad going considering Franco hasn't bouldered/sport climbed 8a/8A.

It's easy to understand the scepticism others are showing. However, if it is E10, (which I'm not doubting) then it's a f**king good effort.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Firstly well done Franco – You can’t take away your enthusiasm for climbing regardless of the grade.

You will get a big focus on the grade with a number like that, it’s a massive declaration! I do agree with the OP in that I think it’s difficult to declare any grade without having an established track record of similar routes across a range of areas.

Time will tell and either way it sounds like your enjoying summer!

In reply to JimmyKay: at E10 7a, it's probably in the top 10 hardest routes in Britain isn't it?

Hell of an achievement isn't it?

In reply to Andy Moles:

More like Scully to Cooksons Mulder...

Andy F

In reply to JimmyKay:

>Not bad going considering Franco hasn't bouldered/sport climbed 8a/8A.

Well hang on, he's done something Steve Mac thinks is Font 8a (or at least that's what Franco says; no reason to doubt it).

>http://francocookson-climbing.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/finger-steve-mcclures-...

He reckons this is harder than that - well, there's no reason to doubt that, either. And it's clearly in a dangerous position. Whether that adds up to E10 I couldn't say; I guess we'll just have to wait for the future onsight, right?

jcm

In reply to andy farnell:

Regardless of the grade it looks boss

In reply to Coel Hellier: When I read about Julian Lines' recent E10 7a, well, it looked a bit different to this one...

In reply to andy farnell: why don't some of you Peak District superstars go and try it before you jump to criticise..he can certainly get you going on here .good for him

In reply to andi turner:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=68145

A little less aesthetically pleasing?

Can't wait for his book to be released.

In reply to andi turner:

Equilibrium doesn't look that different though, and much safer. What Font grade is that?!

jcm

In reply to JimmyKay:

The little finger mono to little finger mono move looks insane.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: The font 8a was graded V10 by Steve Mac and there is a fair chance despite him being smaller than Franco he didn't do it standing on 2 mats.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Sounds like Ed Drummond rather than poetry.

In reply to victorclimber: I don't think any one is questioning that it is a hard and serious problem, or denigrating Franco's performance and achievement - it's the grade that people are questioning?

In reply to andy farnell:

I think your initial post makes some fair points and its more than likley it will be downgraded (if only because its Franco). However I think the lad has close to enough talent for a super bold E10 route heavily worked that fits his skill set. I'd like to know what you would give a F7c+ boulder problem crux (being conservative, if its similar to a soft F8a) with a 10m groundfall in prospect. I think 1000:1 odds is stealing but I'll put a pint down on 10:1 that it stays at E10, will you accept that?

Not congratulating him on the ascent irrespective of the grade is pretty mean. So, well done Franco, espescially as too few people are putting up new lines like this at their very limit these days.

In reply to Al Evans: It is a bit 'Great Wall' when you come to think of it Al.

Does the next part have anything about 'elephants trumpeting past'?

In reply to webbo: Webbo returns...with his funny little stories. Franco has done it standing on two pads, with no pads and I seem to remember him trying it barefoot. The original grade of the finger was V11, but it has slowly come down and 7c or something is probably fair.

I can't do either but i know i was a darn sight closer to the finger than that horrific wall. Multiple narrow and shallow little finger monos with funnily enough, f*ck all for your feet. It's not over then either... as that's setting up for the crux.

I was at work so didn't see the event unfortunately - which is a first I think. Delighted he's done it - wonder what's next?

In reply to andy farnell:


Didn't Dawes do some fairly cutting edge stuff on sedimentary outcrops while being significantly behind the cutting edge on limestone?

In reply to Franco Cookson: Not sure there are any rules?

Reading your reply it all sounds like shoddy reporting by UKC e.g. only reason it's E10 is a limitation of the UKC logbooks, hardly the basis for the headline grabbing 'New E10!' headline.

I don't see how you can't see that people will query someone's ability to grade at a level if they don't have a track record at or close to the level in question. That's surely just logic?

If I climb an 8b or Font 8A tomorrow I will have no real benchmark against which to assess it, I can't say if it's hard, easy or whatever for the grade as I haven't climbed at that level before.

In reply to robin mueller: From that first picture, it seems the mono moves are at about 10 feet up. I presume the FA shots of him gurning up the monos was taken from the grassy ledge to the right, or was it from an abseil?

Harder than Transcendence and The Prow in Northumberland, phwoar!

In reply to andi turner:

You can see the height of the route here:
http://francocookson-climbing.blogspot.co.uk/p/classics-for-taking.html

I imagine Franco is at home laughing at all this fuss. He is maybe the biggest wind up merchant you will ever meet, although he does have a huge enthusiasm for the moors. These big grades on unrepeated routes are nothing new; hes just pushed this one a bit higher.

Well done on this new route Franco. UKC will have to wait for a repeat to sort the grade out. Be careful out there!

In reply to Goucho: my point was why even go down this road until someone repeats it and then criticise.. perhaps he should have bolted it given it a hard grade but safe and no probs ..bet it would soon get a repeat then..

In reply to andy farnell:


Hmm... the problem is that such repeats wouldn't prove the grade of this route. They would obviously give more credence to you and other critics of the grade but they wouldn't prove it - one way or the other. If Franco doesn't want to put his neck on the block for 'credence' then why on earth should he?

The grade will surely only be confirmed (or denied) by repeats. I'm sure Franco would be delighted for it to be repeated.



I remember the furore about Jonny (and Andy) Woodward in the mid/late 1970s. They were putting up loads of stuff in their own backwater and sometimes giving futuristic grades. Some of the futuristic grades didn't stick (e.g. Wings of Unreason) but some did (e.g. Piece of Mind). Later there was Beau Geste. And much more...

Franco is obviously a romantic about The Moors, bless him. (But maybe he really has seen 'infinity in a grain of sand'?) The Moors float his boat; they bring out the best in him. Generally (and I accept I may be talking out of my a*se here!) he seems like a guy capable of really dangerous E8 when he's psyched. And when he's super-psyched and pulls out the lead of a lifetime??

It's not up to him to prove anything; with the best will in the world, he simply can't. Proof (or disproof) can only come about through other peoples' actions. We can speculate forever but it's just speculation.

Whatever the grade, it does sound like the lead of a lifetime. Franco, revel in your time!

Mick

In reply to Michael Ryan - UKC and UKH:


To be fair, Glen Denny was referring to a climber who required his support crew to abseil off every so often to distribute press releases!

jcm

In reply to Mick Ward:

In the mid 70's Mick, anyone who wasn't part of the 'peak/stoney' scene claiming big grades was scoffed at, or set upon by the pack of baying wolves - remember the near coronary's that happened when Fowler freed Linden - "Mick who, and ee's from London, f*ck off, impossible!" - was the cry echoing down the Dale

In reply to Goucho:

It wasn't only big grades. Me and my mates put several routes up over the years or free climbed existing aid routes in the Peak. We wrote them up, sent them into magazines and clubs but never got credited with them because, I suspect, we were not part of the "in crowd"..

In reply to Goucho:

Absolutely - another guy who was scoffed at. I remember someone telling me how they'd watched Fowler take multiple fliers off Regent Street, I think it was. ("So how could??") They'd underestimated Fowler's massive psyche (since legendary!) And maybe he was having a bad day on Regent Street. Lord knows, we all have 'em.

To his everlasting credit, it was Birtles who gave the guy a chance, said, "Maybe we need to sit up and take notice..."

But not before Geraldine had led Elder Crack ("I couldn't bear to watch!"), much ale had been consumed in The Moon, a fight had broken out, etc, etc.

And what have we got now? Just ghostly echoes spinning through cyberspace. I bet Franco wishes he'd lived in livelier times!

Mick

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants: Ah yes, the 'stoney mafia' I remember it well

You had to be on first name terms with the leading lights, and sleep on Windy Ledge for 14 consecutive weekends, and be able to top rope Wee Doris in under 5 minutes before you could
join

In reply to Mick Ward:

I think I know who started that story, and I'm not sure it was true, but I think he was rather chummy with a well known peak star who had failed in his own attempt on Linden - more than once

In reply to andy farnell: this seems like a strange issue to get worked up about. All first ascents are given a subjective grade as a best guess on the basis of one ascent. It takes multiple repeats to achieve a more objective consensus about what the grade might actually be.

In reply to Goucho, Mick Ward, Al Randall, ALC etc

You old geezers have seen it all.

Everything goes in cycles, the routes get harder because training and gear get better.

Hope you enjoyed the route Franco and also winding everybody up as usual.

Rick

Easier to take a leaf out of the South Lakes team book and just grade everything E2 5c or E4 6a regardless. I once graded a route E2 5b because I could not remember doing one before.

In reply to Rick Graham: Or deliberately under grade everything by at least 2 grades, as was common practice within the Glossop arm of the peak mafia

In reply to Rick Graham: Liking your work

The grade of this route is off my radar, the method of climbing totally alien to me and Franco's motives, going on previous posts, questionable but it would be very churlish at this time to deny the achievement. well done Franco.

In reply to andy farnell: Well done Franco, great effort. E-whatever, I suspect there's very few around who could repeat it.

Stay safe.

Can't believe this hasn't been said yet...

Franco Cookson Pha ... Whats he ever done on grit

Get in

In reply to Franco Cookson: Oi Franco! As the "UKC baby tricams" didn't fit in any of the monos but you did it anyway, you need to now promise to post them on to the next "UKC gobby yoof" with a ridiculous plan to try and wiggle them into some placement that clearly isn't really going to hold, so that they can do an E11.

Good effort old chap.

In reply to andy farnell: If you need a spot or pad caddies then I don't think you'll be short of helpers. Shouldn't take too long to flash I shouldn't think. Am so pleased to see Franco stirring the pot again.

don't believe the grade? easy enough, go and repeat it yourself and see. otherwise stfu.

In reply to climbnplay:

Don't swear. It's not nice.

In reply to andi turner:

Why the little finger out of curiosity - are they that small that you can't get an index in?

Regarding the grades, on franco's blog and his post on here. All the grades are preceded with an 'H' presumably this stands for hyperbole? happy to be corrected

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Brilliant stuff. Those monos look absolutely appalling. Top effort!

In reply to mann9076: Pot stirring or talking shillbut?

In simple climbing terms:

Ondra tours the world, tries all the hardest routes, then grades his own, accurately. Everyone believes him because he has more than walked the walk. He is the walk.

Cookson does one E6 outside his patch, a few H7/8's in his own (of his own) and then grades something E10. Anyone with the intelligence of a BNP member can work out why he may be doubted.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell: This is probably obvious to most on here, but what is an 'H' grade?

In reply to andy farnell:

I don't know if you are one or not, but you come across as a complete pillock.

In reply to Oceanrower: H for headpoint

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Why? Because I'm making a valid, reasoned argument against the grade given to a route? I'm questioning his ability to have an accurate assessment of the routes difficulty, based on the fact that he hasn't climbed anywhere near that level outside his own backyard.

I have publicly stated that if I'm wrong then I'll happily be proved wrong. If that makes me, in your eyes, a pillock, then I'm not sure if you know what the word means.

Andy F

In reply to Oceanrower:

H = toprope practice. I'd be more impressed if Franco had been down to Wales and onsighted The Bells, Wreath or even Lord. Has he done these?

E

Nice one franco... Good effort!

In reply to andy farnell:

The only valid, reasoned argument against the grade of a route comes from knowledge of the route itself.

In reply to andy farnell:

It would be better based on a repeat ascent, even on toprope. Your logic appears to be that it cannot be E10, or indeed anything close, simply because it is Franco.

I don't think he is suggesting that you are a pregnant fish.

In reply to The New NickB: My point is simple. The person claiming the route hasn't got the required experience to give the grade. Who the person is, is irrelevant. Their lack of experience at that level, coupled with their lack of experience outside their own patch makes me very suspicious of the grade.

See my post about Ondra. No-one disbelieves him, with good reason. Franco...

Andy F

In reply to Michael Gordon:

No, it doesn't. Read the whole thread.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell: Franco, congratulations. I'm guessing after 2 years of effort, the send must have been a brilliant experience. Well done.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

He's making a reasoned case, you're calling him a pillock. Regardless of the truths, I know which of these I find more mature.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Regardless of the grade, well done. I hope the grade will encourage more traffic to your area.

Andy F is of course correct in many ways. The hardest I've led is E2 and I wouldn't be able to know if a route was E5 say. I have no basis for comparison. I could tell if something were "at least" E3 but beyond that is guesswork. Anyone would be quite entitled to doubt a grade I put on a route beyond E3.

Having said that, this is a rather harsh way to go about making the point. I'm sure most people would know of Franco and that there might be other factors involved and would take the E10 with a pinch of salt. As a mere punter my opinion isn't worth a whole lot but even I can see that.

I say congratulate Franco on what is clearly a very hard FA and let's wait to see if
a suitably qualified outsider ever looks at the line with a view to repeat it. I'm absolutely sure Franco would be delighted if some wad decides to give it a go.

At least this thread and news makes for an interesting Friday!

In reply to andy farnell: it is truly astonishing and a very interesting lesson in group psychology that it is Andy F being given the grief here. Franco's chutzpah is to be valued above all common sense and reason so that everyone can feel cool about the whole thing? Really? All the available historical evidence suggests that it highly unlikely that Franco can climb at the grade claimed and the onus really is on him to prove otherwise. The idea that people challenging an utterly outrageous claim are in some way sour grapes or spoilsport and have to disprove it by hightailing to the back of beyond to climb it is risible. It's really depressing to hear people argue that sure this might be deliberate overgrading but that's actually a challenge to someone to prove it - what of honesty and integrity? An absolute bath of shite run by a shameless self publicist - who is an excellent climber way beyond my league and should know and behave better

In reply to andy farnell:

You're talking about 'proof'. The only proof of whether the grading is correct is for the route to see multiple repeats. Lack of track record doesn't disprove the grade.

In reply to andy farnell:

Having climbed the route, Franco is more qualified than anyone to grade that route at this time, I guess time and further ascents will tell.

What a depressing thread...maybe a private conversation would have been a more appropriate way of assuaging any doubts, rather then trial by Internet...sigh

In reply to Graham Booth:

yeah

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Yes it does. If I found a little crag near where I live, bolted a route, found it to be the hardest thing I'd tried, sieged it, did it and gave it 8c+, I'd be shot down in flames. It would be way beyond the level of anything I'd tried or been known to succeed on and therefore way beyond my ability to give it an accurate grade. Which is the crux of it...

Andy F

In reply to Graham Booth:

Bollox. Franco wouldn't have it any other way.

In reply to The New NickB:

So, according to Franco's logbook, his hardest climbs have been 5 x E7's (4 of them his own routes and grades??) and 1 x E8 (again his own route and grade) and all of them in the North York Moors.

Is it any wonder that some people are questioning how he can possibly give this new route a grade of E10?

Unless of course he is using a unique 'North York Moors' grading system - which would explain it all.

It looks a fine piece of climbing, and a bold first ascent which deserves congratulations, but why spoil it by touting it as E10, with no credentials to remotely validate such a claim.

In reply to Goucho:


Maybe because its the ultimate UKC troll?

In reply to andy farnell: What grade did the route in Wales that Stuart Cathcart gave (I think) English 6c to years ago end up at? I seem to remember that this was a massive step up and there was a degree of controversy at the time about whether it was or wasn't (and I seem to recall "wasn't" was the answer).

In reply to Jonny2vests:

You could be right there Johnny, in which case well done Franco, you whooped us all

In reply to Goucho: So let someone prove him wrong, or just whine on the internet (like you're doing).

In reply to andy:

Crash Landing I think, repeated a couple of weeks after by Livesey and Gomersall, and downgraded to 6a!

In reply to Sir Chasm:

There is in fact a difference between questioning a claimed grade, and whining.

In reply to andy farnell:

It might make it unlikely but it wouldn't disprove it. OK so the grade might not be accurate but with a suggestion of H9-H11, he hasn't claimed it to be so.

By the way, what do you hope to achieve from this public discussion? Climbing has a history of giving the benefit of the doubt to the first ascentionist unless proven otherwise through repeats or knowledge of the specific route in question. It's a matter of showing due respect to the FA as much as anything else.

In reply to Goucho:

OK so what grade should he have given it and why?

In reply to Goucho:

Cookson is just an attention seeking little ...

He's a f*cking good climber though!!!

Go boy!

In reply to Michael Gordon:


Does it? I seem to remember seeing the words "bollocks - E2 at a push" written in assorted new routes books in Frank Davies, Stoney Caff etc by people who had never been on the route. Perhaps this is the modern day equivalent of that little crucifix thing they used to put against routes in FRCC guides.

In reply to andy:

Well yes, I guess the crucifix does suggest uncertainty due to lack of ascents. It would be pointless on something like this though - no-one is going to try it onsight.

In reply to Goucho:

Then climb it and then whine about the grade. But at the moment which are you doing?

In reply to Michael Gordon:

The problem is, that his only bench marks above E5 (5 grades lower than this route) apart from one E6 (a highball), are his own routes, few of which have had the grade verified.

If, he had climbed a number of routes in other areas with verified grades of E8 and E9, he would have an accurate set of criteria against which he could measure this route.

But as he hasn't, he can't, so he may as well give it E12.

It 'may' well be a couple of grades harder than his E8, but if that is in fact not E8, then I'm afraid the whole house of cards falls down.

He is clearly a talented and bold climber, but he would do his reputation far more good by getting out and measuring himself against established 'hard' routes, thereby giving his own new routes the credibility they may well turn out to deserve.

Unfortunately, until he does this, he will continue to generate this kind of reaction to his grade claims - irrespective of whether it is deserved or not.

In reply to andy farnell:

Congratulations Franco, I am sure the euphoria at completion has justified 2 years of hard work. What is next on your list?

I am in no position to comment on the grade; my best guess off a few photos is sure to be wrong. As such, I will take your word on the grade, accurate or not. It is only a guide after all.

Andy...your disbelief is understandable but what outcome did you hope from this thread? Grading by UKC consensus? Surely nothing positive was ever going to come of it. What grade do you believe it to be and why? Were you in Franco's shoes, what grade would you have offered as your best guess based on personal experience?

H9, H10, H11 whatever it be, good lead Franco.

In reply to Goucho:

Maybe he doesn't care if people believe him or not. Maybe he is happy climbing new routes in an area he loves and offering a grade that he sees fit.

I don't see why he should have to prove himself for the sake of a few disbelieving individuals.

In reply to Goucho:


I agree.

Just because one route is harder than another does not mean it earns the next E point. Each grade covers a spread of difficulty.
A lot of climbers cannot agree on the grade never mind the spread however.
One of the reasons for grade creep.


Thats probably why he has done it.

In reply to melonmike:

So if one of your mates who has never climbed anything harder than E1, claims he's just climbed a new E3/4, you'd take it at face value would you?

In reply to melonmike: I would have sought out people to try the route and got their opinion of the grade, then tried routes of a similar difficulty around the country before offering my grade. Its called benchmarking.

Andy F

In reply to Goucho:

Yes, if it had been worked over a considerable time.

In reply to Goucho:

He led it, he gets to grade it, if you lead it you can contest the grade, but if you don't lead it (and haven't even seen the route) what are you adding?

In reply to Goucho:

You make fair points but those are the routes he's climbed so he just has to go with a best guess, however wrong it may turn out to be (either way).

To be honest I find it much more interesting and inspiring to see someone doing exciting new stuff (regardless of whether the grade turns out to be correct or not) than repeating things that tons of folk have done. He apparently feels the same?

I just think saying 'it can't be that bad' is a strange reaction to this sort of news. It's a bit like disbelieving the weather man but not looking out the window to see for yourself. Why not go out there and have a look?

In reply to andy farnell:

Thanks
I like it when I find a word that saves several lines of explanation.

My 2p. I bet the route settles down to E6. Must have been to the crag in the Seventies but cant remember much about it. Just an educated guess.

In reply to andy farnell:

To be fair, he said he'd continue to assess the grade over time until the next guidebook is produced.

In reply to andy farnell:

I might be wrong but to my mind: there aren't too many people who can potentially climb E10 at the drop of a hat, there are fewer still likely to travel to the North York Moors to sample one at Danby Crag, there are even fewer who fit that criteria that Franco is likely to be in contact with.

He climbed the route and as you would expect was asked to give an estimate of the grade. All proposed grades are subject to change. This is a far more sensible approach than leaving the grade blank or sandbagging people against your better judgement.

Franco has done as much as can be expected and I am sure would welcome a rush of people to sample his latest offering. In the meantime, accept the grade at face value and try not to lose sleep over it.

If I read the news that Andy Farrell puts up new E8 on obscure crag I don't think I could begin to tell you how little I would care about your proposed grade. I would wait for a more informed opinion from a repeat ascensionist. I certainly wouldn't feel the need to so forcibly vocalise my disbelief.

In reply to andy farnell:

Fair play Franco, years of work, must be a great feeling to finally lead this.

Got a lot of time for the effort you put into publicising the Moors too. Looking forward to the first guide book in, 25 years?

For those wondering about the grade, surely if you lead E5 ish, chucking a top rope down it should be able to give a fair idea of where it lies. Why not give it a bash? I think we'd all be interested to hear either way.

In reply to Goucho:

Not necessarily but I'd be excited to hear about the route that he'd clearly excelled himself on. My main thought certainly wouldn't be 'what a load of nonsense'!

In reply to Michael Gordon:

+1

In reply to andy farnell:

I don't know nowt bout no E13 but could someone please tell me when the new guide for the moors is out, sounds great. I heard there will also be an excellent bouldering guide coming out soon too.

In reply to melonmike: Not wanting to sound churlish, but in no way has Franco 'done as much as expected'. He has looked at a piece of string, without any idea how to measure it and said 'its 10cm long'. He has guessed completely. Finger in the air stuff. Blind man in a dark room, hopelessly groping for the exit.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

It may be anything between E6 and E13 by the look of things, but...
is it 7a?

In reply to andy farnell:

So again, since you clearly believe the grade to be wrong, and given you in-depth knowledge of the route, which grade would you propose he should have given it?

In reply to Michael Gordon: Read what has already been written. He should try other routes given E9/10/11 and then offer a grade. Benchmark. Simple. As almost everyone else does. Step out of his bubble and try the routes/blocs of his peer group.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell: Not that you sound churlish, but you haven't seen the piece of string and you're saying that somebody else's estimate (a person who has seen it) of its length is wrong.

In reply to andy farnell:

He has at least looked at the piece of string, he has even held it.

Yet you now say, pah, the longest piece of string Franco has previously measured was shorter than that. There is no way this piece of string could possibly be longer than the last arbitrary piece of string that Franco held, how dare he estimate this string to be longer. Then, to cap it all, you haven't kept your doubts to yourself, you have announced them to UKstring and demanded that a well known string measurer be sought out and visit Franco to guess how long his string is.

Ridiculous.

In reply to melonmike: No, I've asked on what basis his string is measured and how accurate can the measurement be, given he has nothing to measure it against.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

I don't know why you can't see that that is just not the best choice solution to the problem?

A first ascentionist can go out and repeat routes but still get the grade wrong. Other routes might suit them better/worse, conditions vary, or they might just be climbing better on different occasions. Routes also just frequently feel harder because they're first ascents. See James Pearson for the classic example.

Consensus through repeats is the only sure way for the right grade to be established. And that goes for any route!

In reply to melonmike: I think Franco needs a tailor!

In reply to andy farnell: seems like the time youve taken out of your obviously interesting and busy life to answer everyone whose commented could have been better spent driving over there and trying it yourself. Or you could sit there behind a screen and chat bullsh*t, I suppose thats the easier option for you


well done franco, but pinky finger pockets, are you insane?

In reply to Michael Gordon: But Franco hasn't gone out and repeated anyone else's E8/9/10 so how can he grade his route with nothing to judge it by? How can you not comprehend that point?

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

OK so it's a complete stab in the dark. Why does that matter? It's not as though potential suiters are going to try and onsight it, find its desperate then fall off and die. They only have to chuck a rope down the thing!

In reply to Beckyi: What bullsh*t have I chatted? Read what is written. None if it is bullsh*t, all of it valid and reasonable. Your response however was purile. At best.

Andy F

In reply to Michael Gordon: I'm off to bang my head against a brick wall. Something I should have done a while ago...

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

Agreed (at last!)

I have just calculated that this thread, with the inclusion of my comments, is now longer than Franco's route! Well done on a fierce-looking route by the way. c

In reply to andy farnell:

It's bullsh*t because you don't know anything about the route in question.

In reply to andy farnell:

I do see your point, Franco has not trotted the country repeating the hard test pieces. Having said that, If I practiced a bold E6 that suited my strengths and I was well psyched about the line, I'm sure I could get the headpoint after enough practice.

You do make your point in an arrogant way, so you must have expected a bit of backlash (makes for interesting reading tho)

Time and repeats will tell. For now, well done Franco.

In reply to andy farnell:

The thing that surprises me most is the fan base Franco has managed to amass despite years (not so much these days to be fair) of spraying all kinds bollocks notably including sticking up for the Millstone drytoolers.

On that momentous achievement, he is to be congratulated. Even I quite like the guy these days and I've never met him. How the f*ck did he manage that?

In reply to The Pylon King:

Could you both name the tons of people climbing E8, E9 and E10 please!

In reply to Michael Gordon:

This seems to be the core argument for all those getting would up by Andy's quite reasonable point

The fact is that grading a route E10 is stating it to be on a par with the very hardest trad routes in the UK, (ie a full E grade harder than Indian Face) and therefore it matters a hell of a lot.

It's almost like a very talented sprinter being trained and developed in isolation from the rest of athletics logging a 100m time of 9.58 seconds with a home made stopwatch.

Maybe it would be better to leave it as: "The initial crux sequence is around Font 8A in bouldering terms, and the route finishes with an easier but more dangerous upper section."

No, Franco doesn't have to go and repeat the hardest (and most dangerous) routes that may not be so suited to his specialist abilities and stiletto fingers - unless he wants to assert that his route is on a par with them.

Of course it's an awesome route and achievement, but to assign a grade on the basis of "a stab in the dark" is meaningless.

In reply to Goucho:

Well plenty E8s have had loads of repeats (headpoint style)

In reply to kevin stephens:

Lets say 10 seconds. The sprinter isn't claiming to be best in the world.

Essentially Farnell is arguing against the existence of a black sheep, purely based on the fact that the farmer has in the past only been known to keep white sheep. This despite the farmer (Franco) specially rounding up the sheep in question and putting it in his yard for all to see!

In reply to goldmember:

Nice one Mr Cookson, fair effort, I'm sure the paps of the Evening Gazette are tracking you down even as I type.

Mr Farnell, have you been formally diagnosed as being on the ASD spectrum or are you just slightly anally retentive?

Mr Goldmember, no, the H is not for Hyperbole, but for Hubris; as in the hubris of the young.

E10/H10/7a? Who knows, but the grade, like Mr Cocksure himself, will find its own level; time cures all ills.

So, while all this is very amusing, I must bid you adieu, the rocks are calling and I have an E13 to flash up.

In reply to Michael Gordon: Kev is spot on with his analogy. How can someone appear from (relatively) nowhere and claim a route to be one of the hardest of it's type in the UK, but not have done anything else of anywhere near the difficulty and not expect seasoned observers to ask a few prudent questions?

Andy F

In reply to Michael Gordon:

You really aren't getting this are you.

Anyone can 'claim' any grade they want for a first accent. However, for that grade to have any 'credibility' (in the real world) they must have some 'credibility' at climbing somewhere near that standard previously, on routes which have been validated at those grades by other climbers.

Unfortunately, Franco cannot tick any of those boxes, therefore his grading of this route has more holes in it than a piece of Swiss cheese.

Whether it is the arrogance of youth (we've all been there), a rather large ego, delusion, or a completely distorted perspective due to operating in a vacuum, who can say.

But by grading this route E10, Franco is claiming that he's one of the top 10 climbers in the country.

In reply to Goucho:

The E10 may be a stab in the dark but I'd like to think the 7a isn't. He's done enough 6b, 6c, 7a to surely have some idea? Add in a certain and bad groundfall and the grade doesn't seem unreasonable.

But we're going round in circles. Basically I'm more interested in exciting new routes and you seem to be more interested in comparing one thing with another.

In reply to andy farnell:

What do you expect?

This is UKC.

99% bollocks but worth looking at for the other 1%.

In reply to Michael Gordon: Discussing things with you is like a theist arguing with an atheist. 'How can you not just believe', 'simple, there isn't enough evidence', 'yes, but why don't you believe?' Etc...

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:


Here though, you do have a picture of god.

In reply to Franco Cookson: is your log book up to date Franco? I remember you were off abroad for a while? Did I see some training clips of you in a deep uber secret Wad's dungeon? What is your thinking behind giving it E10 7a?

again well done on the ascent and well done on the publicity.

In reply to Franco Cookson: A picture does not validate a grade. Knowledge and experience, two things missing from your repertoire, validate the grade.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=188593
http://www.lakesbloc.com/news/news-2006/240-a-moment-of-clarity.html

A Moment of Clarity- Thorn Crag- V12/V13- proposed Trad Grade of E10

What are your views on the traditional grade offered for this route, in comparison to Franco's estimation for his?

In reply to andy farnell:

It's not that your arguments are invalid, it's that you've chosen to make them at all.

You've zeroed in on the grade like nothing else matters. I think pinky mono moves and serious commitment are way more interesting.

Why not just wait and see?

In reply to Franco Cookson and Andy Farnell:

I'm giving you both a huge amount of respect.

Franco for pulling off a ballsy lead on very sketchy-looking bit of climbing which obviously held huge meaning to him.

Andy for pursuing his line of inquiry without resorting to direct insult or profanity, despite having been on the end of this from third-parties. It's rare to see this level of calm objectivity on UKC!

In reply to melonmike:

The simple fact that in this case, Gaskins had a long history of climbing at the very highest level. There is none in Franco's case.

Andy F

In reply to Goucho:

Oh come off it. That is nonsense. He is claiming nothing of the sort.

I must say that the negativity displayed towards Franco in this thread is really depressing. I can only assume that he is the subject of such questioning because of his former online ‘youthful exuberance’, only a small part of which I have ever bothered to read…

But, if we look at the facts here, we have someone who is clearly a talented climber, has extremely strong fingers, and who has found a project which suits his strengths and his anatomy perfectly.

If you bother to look at his blog, you will see that this ascent wasn’t a sudden flash in the pan. Franco has been working this project for many months, making incremental gains and discussing the psychology of the lead (or solo) to come.

So now he has done it (and correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think there is any doubt that he has done it) and he has had the audacity to

a) Name his new climb

b) Suggest the grade he considers best reflects the difficulty of the climb.

Forgive me if I’m missing something, but that is what first ascentionists do! Sometimes they get it wrong, and if the claimed grade ends up appearing over-inflated, particularly if it is suspected this was done to appease sponsors, then they may be subject to the ridicule of their peers. But in most cases, even The Walk of Life, I think people are sincere in the grade estimate they proffer.

The key thing is the timing of any subsequent grade rationalisation, and for that rationalisation to have any credibility, the route needs to be repeated.

What is so perplexing about this thread is how many people think they know better than Franco about a route he knows intimately, and they have never even stood beneath. I mean come on, you haven’t even seen the video yet!

It seems even odder to me that you are effectively telling Franco to go and repeat some hard routes first before grading his new line.

Why on earth should he? And what do you expect him to do in the meantime? Give his new route a lower grade which he doesn’t actually believe to be correct?

It is possible for people to achieve exceptional performances which are far above their normal level – Chilam Balam is an obvious example in the world of sport climbing. Here the FA (who I have always believed did climb that route) suggested a grade so far above the level of the time that he was ridiculed and pilloried across the climbing world. Yet when Ondra repeated the route many years later, lo and behold his grade estimate of the time was only one notch out.

As for the fact that Franco and his crew are operating in an obscure backwater, passionately exploring and developing their beloved (North York) “Moors”, I think that is great. As long as they have climbed the routes they claim – and I’m sure they do - and they don’t resort to improvement of the rock – which I’m sure they don’t – then what possible harm is there that their chosen playground exists outside the mainstream madding crowds?

Neil

In reply to Andy Moles:

I agree, the route does look interesting, and possibly serious. That is not the debate. The debate is how Franco has given the route E10 7a, yet outside his own area he has only climbed E6 6b. An enormous gap. What is he basing the grade on?

Has Franco, in secret, been around the country and tried routes such as If 6 were 9, Trancendence, Living in Oxford, Equilibrium etc? If so, provide the evidence. That is what is needed if his proposed grade is to be believed.

Andy F

In reply to Neil Foster:
I completely agree with all that you just wrote Neil.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Mankind has invented many gods and only a few stood up long to serious scrutiny. When in doubt, at a level not normally operated at most climbing heroes opt for a grade on the tough side of things and as you said E9 to E11 why not E9?

My pint bet is based on the odd time these things do stand up to scrutiny like say Peaches at Birchen, despite the huge ruckus about it. If I lose I get to buy a pint for your undeniable hard work and courage.

In reply to Neil Foster:

Excellent post Neil.

In reply to Nik Jennings:

So do I, but I also see Andy's viewpoint.

One problem is that grades and numbers will become meaningless.

We might as well revert to easy hard and impossible.

We can only agree that Franco is in wind up mode again.

He should have given it a split grade, or even E6/7/8.

In reply to andy farnell:


He does but not a history of climbing and grading traditional routes. In fact, Gaskins did not propose the grade of E10. Gaskins offerend what he knew, the bouldering grade, but due to the serious nature of the climb a traditional grade has been offered.

In contrast, Franco is sure of the technical grade but offered a range of H grades. Given Franco's very unique skill set I don't think there will be too much question over whether the technical grade will stand but the adjective grade may prove to be accurate or inaccurate. The grade is Franco's best suggestion, consensus may lower the grade over time but that takes repeats and not internet frustrations.

E10 for Moment of Clarity was suggested through a combination of difficulty and seriousness, similar to Franco's route.

In reply to Nik Jennings:

Yeah but what would you two know about hard routes? UKC mob rules.

In reply to andy farnell:


Though it makes sense that, in someone's home area, they may work a route over many months, training specifically for it, whereas when they visit other areas they are more interested in the onsight -- and hence genuinely headpoint much harder in their home area.


There are two parts to a grade. First, the technical grade. This does seem in line with things Franco has done that have established technical grades, and since he's been specifically training for it -- unable to do the moves for months, before training and training for them and finally getting them -- then the technical grade is believable.

Then there is the E grade. Given that there is a fair amount of logic about how the system works (yes there is!), a climber can indeed, if they know the *technical* grade, make a judgment of "that move, 6 metres up, no gear, bad landing, is going to be E-whatever", even if E-whatever is above what they have ever climbed. They may not be spot on, but they'd have a fair idea. Presuming that Franco went for a totally mad solo, going for a boulder-problem at his limit, that he could only just do, but now soloing at a dangerous height (and judging from his Tintwhistle escapade he does have the mentality to do that), then it is believable that his estimate of the grade is fair.

But all of this really doesn't matter *of* *course* everyone is going to take the grade as provisional until some repeats confirm or change it. Of course the route deserves a dagger symbol (as any unrepeated route does). But, other than not giving the route a grade at all, I don't see what else is sensible other than making a best estimate. He could be way out, that's surely understood; it would hardly be the first route misgraded by a first ascentionist.

In reply to Neil Foster:
He's graded it E10 7a - how many people are climbing at that grade?

I have in previous posts said that he is a talented and bold climber, and that this is a fine and impressive accent.

Well all hard routes are worked over long periods these days aren't they?

Not really a relevant point is it.
Best reflects the difficulty of the climb based on his experience - and this is the crux - where is this experience of E8 plus climbing?

Would you make this comment regarding the route needing a repeat to clarify the grade if Dave Mac had done it?

No people are just making the comment that this route is about 4 grades harder than anything he has done before.

Yes, because without those benchmarks, how can you accurately grade a route - so if Franco finds a route hard, then that means it's E10?

His ability to grade accurately has to be questioned because he has no benchmarks to measure against.

This could be the case here, in which case, I will be the first to acknowledge it but at the moment, you wouldn't bet mush cash on it.

True, but it looks like their grading system might be operating outside the mainstream too.

In reply to andy farnell:

So; these moors. Are they north of York?

In reply to Goucho:


Is anyone claiming that this grade is for-sure accurate? Even Franco is not claiming that, it is his hesitantly expressed *best* *guess*. It should be taken as such and thus taken as provisional.

In reply to Coel Hellier:


Exactly Franco has given himself plenty of wriggle room to, when he gives the final grade to Steve for the guide, say I never *actually* said E10, etc etc. so he can enjoy the storm his grade would create on here whilst innocently proclaiming later on that he never *really* claimed to have climbed one of the hardest half dozen trad routes in the country.

In reply to andy farnell:

I was also about to post speculating about the grade of Franco's route, but realised I have no idea what I was talking about, never having seen or tried it.

Good effort Franco - hope the grade sticks.

In reply to Neil Foster: Neil,

Climbers like yourself, Steve Crowe, Nick Jennings etc have a vast experience of operating in the higher grades and your opinion is to be trusted and valued. That Steve says Franco has strong fingers and the ability is noted. His previous video evidence of going for it in dangerous positions is undoubted. What remains unanswered and therefore questioned is Franco's similar experience and knowledge of climbing hard routes around the country. That this route is difficult and unique is very possible. Franco MAY have gone way beyond his previous high point.

There is historical precedence. Ed Morgan went from 8a to 8b+ when he did the 3rd ascent of Mecca. That was on a well known crag infront of his peers. My question still remains, as in this case Franco has no yardstick against which to grade the route, as his lack of experience and knowledge of routes established and confirmed by the community is well documented.

Andy F

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Love it!

Mick

In reply to Mark Warnett:

That hasn't stopped anyone else!

In reply to andy farnell:

Looks E0 to me.

In reply to Goucho:

I've no idea about the cutting edge grades, but up to VS, the Moors grades are on the tough side. You can often add a grade to get the Peak equivalent. On some crags you can add 2 grades - eg Ingleby Incline, though these are gradually being sorted out.

In reply to Toreador:

Hang on. So you're saying this is actually E12?

In reply to GuyVG: I have no idea when the climbing guide is out but they'll be a lot for them to sort out before it goes to print I suspect, like all guides I guess.

The bouldering guide is pretty much there, all the venues are nearly done, september is more likely the time it is totally finished. Check betaguides.co.uk for pre orders soon.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Franco, you totally rock!
Hope it does end up as an E10, although just the 7a bit would make me a happy chap if I sent it.
It's an E10 until a consensus of repeats confirms or regrades, regardless of the opinion of the armchair warriors.

PS a big thank you to Neil Foster for such a reasonable post. The thread is the closest to the great days of the Stoney new route book I've seen online, or as Offwidth alluded to, GG's ascent of Peaches, which turned out to be spot on. That's what the dagger is for in the text of the guidebook.

In reply to James Jackson: I have done 12 E1's does that mean I can have an opinion? Well here goes, It's more like E11 to me(soft,) yeah I am happy with that.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

(there you go, I fixed that for you)

Poor old franco is now reaping the whirlwind of being an internet Troll, Its a bit like the boy who cried wolf... but with esoteric grotty rock that no one bothers climbing on and not a wolf.

He likes that.

" with esoteric grotty rock that no one bothers climbing on "

I don't think its that bad,

why doesn't everybody who has posted on this topic go there next weekend and find out?

In reply to Goucho:

Doesn't that claim get diluted a bit by the amount of working the route that goes on? Claiming to have climbed one of the hardest routes is not the same as claiming to be one of the best climbers.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

It's not E10 until it's confirmed. Upto that point the grade is, at best a guess. And I would class myself as a weekend warrior

That was a great read. Can't wait for Phil Kelly's book to come out.

Andy F

In reply to Rick Graham:


You'll need to be a BMC member(or associated with one) & you'll need to ring the landowner before visiting...apparently!

Enough to put me off & i'm only 20 minute drive away.

In reply to melonmike:


Is this String Theory or a strand of Game Theory?

In reply to Neil Foster:



What leads you to believe this ? There were no witnesses of the redpoint. If he had done it his belayer would have supported his claim given the hoo-hah.

Agree with everything else you wrote BTW

In reply to Goucho:


*chortle*

Like the day Quentin Fisher put up "Kingfisher" and someone changed the name to "Queen Quent"

In reply to andy farnell: well done franco for causing such an entertaining forum to read! I have a feeling some people may take this climbing business a bit to seriously... (cough cough) andy farnell...

In reply to andy farnell:
Must be time for this

http://www.posingproductions.com/video.php?form_action=play&video_id=10...

In reply to andy farnell:


I hope, at least, this route will begin to attract more climbers up to the moors. It seems a shame that all these new hard routes are being put up, yet nobody is going and getting on them.

Is the hope with release of the new guide, they'll see a bit more traffic/popularity?

In reply to andy farnell:

What we disagree on is how the 'evidence' (for the route's difficulty) is
obtained. You seem to think Franco going out and doing more stuff is the best way, while I think the route being repeated and a consensus emerging is the best way.

In reply to andy farnell: As for Mick Fowler's ability,I belayed him on an early ascent of Kingdom Come at Stoney.He romped up it,and then romped Kellog also.

Clearly a brilliant climber.
I saw a climber once whom Dawes rated highly,failing pathetically on Mortlock's Arete at Chee Tor.Everybody has off days.

As for grades,Boysen said that a route should be graded according to the number of people who are capable of leading/soloing it.

The issue of mats clouds things a little,but the frequency of repeats or failures will give some indication.

There are the usual critics on this site that never did a Font 7c or 8a in their lives,passing comment.Tedious.

The only people the grade matters to are the first ascensionist and people actually attempting it.Overgrading keeps people a bit safer,and undergrading also causes annoyance.Tough.Either you can do it,or you can't.

In reply to Bob Ashcroft:
+1

Well done Franco. It's inspiring to see someone achieve success on such a wild dream.

Hardest route on the moors by a good margin, regardless of grade.

In reply to andy farnell:

The question is, does anyone have the experience of E10 solos with 7a pinky mono mantle cruxes to grade this?

In reply to Lh88:

+1 (for Bob and Luke)

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Yet again you get it wrong. I think that Franco's grading is probably wildly inaccurate due to his dearth of experience in the grade range he is claiming. I think he should have tried more routes which are similar in difficulty to the grade he has claimed for his. That way his claims would have some validity. As it stands he has no grounding to give the route E10. Just because he says it's E10 doesn't make it so.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

Oh dear, yet again you fail to understand!

Just because he hasn't done existing E9/10s doesn't mean this route cannot be. He has suggested a grade, not claimed the route is definitively that grade.

Is the grade credible? We shall see with repeats.

In reply to shark:


Err... decency? Respect for the word of a fellow climber??

'At least some top Spanish climbers are willing to give Fernández the benefit of the doubt. “I come from the old climbing world and have always been taught to respect the climber and his ascent,” says Josune Bereziartu.'

Seems like Ondra also respected the climber and his ascent. Isn't there a video of them together without any dodgy body language?

Yes, of course we'll occasionally get caught out by some shameless blagger. But I'd rather accept the word of a fellow climber than demand video proof - or any other proof. I want climbing to be self-regulating and so have the best chance of preserving its quirkiness, its sense of difference. At least this thread, however bonkers it gets, is by climbers (I use the term loosely!) and for climbers.

Mick

In reply to andy farnell:
So 239 posts and a dry Saturday, has anyone (Andy Farnell) actually bothered to chuck a rope on it, or is it just easier to diss Franco.

Just looked at the blog photos links at 13.54 friday.

Has anybody suggested that those mono holes were not drilled for bolts at one time? The spacing and size look very suspicious on the photos.

and before anybody asks, I have never taken a drill,star drill or hammer to Danby in my youth,,, but I know a lot of old mates who might have.

Franco?

In reply to Michael Gordon: Are you capable of reading the whole thread? I am clearly not the only person that thinks that Franco does not have the experience to give the route E10. Your argument that 'just because he gave it the grade and he's the first ascentionist so it should stand until it's had a repeat' does not stack up. By your reckoning anyone could claim any grade for any first ascent, which is ludicrous.

A first ascentionist must give a grade which reasonably accurately reflects the difficulty, based on experience. Franco clearly does not fit this criteria, no matter how much effort he has put in. It smacks of teenage willy waving.

Andy F

In reply to Rick Graham:

From (possibly faulty) memory of past posts by Franco, I think they are old bolt holes.

In reply to sjc: Read carefully. I have not 'dissed' Franco or tried to belittle his achievement, just questioned his ability to accurately give a route E10 when he has no experience of routes near that level of difficulty which have been climbed by other climbers. Which is a reasonable question to ask. As of yet no one has come up with a concrete answer.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:


What do you mean by that? If you mean "Franco does not have the experience to give the route E10 *reliably*", then I think everyone else agrees with you. But then what should we do? Select some other grade at random?

Or do you mean that the climbing police should ban anyone claiming an E10 grade unless they have witness-signed videos of themselves on three E8s and at least one E9, and that you want the climbing police to smack Franco's wrists accordingly?

What are you saying here? If it is only that "this E10 grade is not reliable", then I'm guessing that every other poster on the thread agrees with you (even Franco!).

But to keep harping on about suggest that you're saying something more. What is it?

In reply to Coel Hellier:

So after 200+ posts and several thousand views we might as well be argueing over the grade of climbing up the T nut holes on a climbing wall?

FFS Well done Franco

In reply to andy farnell:

I completely agree with everything you have said Andy.

To have no benchmark routes under his belt with which to grade a route E10, perhaps he should have gone with HXS instead.

In reply to andy farnell:


Franco may not have the experience to give his route E10 but he certainly has alot of experience in winding people up on UKC.

I think you are the only person who really thinks that Franco ever thought it was worth E10. However I firmly believe that anyone attempting to repeat the climb will find it to be Extremely Severe.

In reply to andy farnell:

Are YOU capable of reading the whole thread? It seems you are in the minority with your views.

I'm just thankful you're not the guidebook editor for the area! What would you do, ask everyone who submits a route for their climbing CV and years of experience?

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Coel,

I may have laboured the point (thanks Michael) but it still stands. I do not think Franco can give the grade, without first trying routes of similar difficulty. With some experience of these routes, his own offerings will gain in validity, as will he.

Andy F

In reply to mwr72:

And what would that have achieved? It certainly would have been no more helpful to repeaters, quite the opposite in fact.

In reply to andy farnell:


So what should he have done? Not given a grade? Yes, he could have, he could have given a technical or bouldering grade and mentioned the height and the landing and left it at that.

But, whenever somebody doesn't give a grade they usually get asked about it repeatedly until they do, or someone else quickly attaches a grade to it and the FA is asked to agree or dispute it.

Whatever, I think this is making quite a bit of a quite minor issue.

In reply to Michael Gordon: Talking to you like talking to a religious zealot. Pointless. So from now on I'm not going to. I'll let you have the last word, turn out the light when you leave.

Andy F

In reply to Steve Crowe:



So you are saying he deliberately overgraded it.

In reply to Coel Hellier: Claiming one of the hardest trad routes in the country, with no valid benchmark is hardly a 'minor issue'.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

Has everybody missed the point?

Its only a line of drilled holes.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


If he'd graded it HXS nobody would have noticed. At least the claimed E10 makes it possible that someone else will be intrigued enough to get on it.

In reply to Rick Graham:
Drilled holes on an obscure crag usually top roped: ideal try tooling venue

In reply to andy farnell:


Since when have you ever read me slagging off someone's climbing? I remember clearly enough just a few years ago when a lot on ukc were knocking the young Franco for all sorts of things... you won't find anything by me of the same. Now he's blowing you off and you are appear bitter. I wonder why?

In reply to Steve Crowe:


Ah, but would this be XS, ES or HXS? Or does it all come down to pinkie power (ouch!) and melon sized gonads?

'But you know it ain't easy
you know how hard it can be...'

Mick

In reply to muppetfilter:

now now, he was only a kid when he was doing that, and isn't much older now. Cut the lad some slack.

In reply to andy farnell:
You really have made yourself look like a right jealous fool with this thread mate.

In reply to andy farnell:


For bolting it, yes, but Franco didn't bolt this one, did he?

In reply to Martin Wing:
Have you read the same (whole) thread that I have?

In reply to andy farnell:

Why not?

When Franco was first on UKC, I used to greatly enjoy reading the resulting threads, they were by far the most entertaining thing on UKC. This thread gives us a taste of what we've been missing - welcome back.

Franco - well done on the route, those pinky monos look horrific.

Andy - if you're saying that any grade up there that Franco gives is very unreliable because of the lack of benchmarking then I agree with you. As with all these things time will tell how accurate it is.

If you're saying that Franco shouldn't have given it a grade, then I disagree, he's graded it as best he can from his experience - what else is he expected to do?

In reply to Michael Hood:

You said it better than I managed.

Anyway +1

In reply:

wow what a thread hahaha, it's Saturday night get a life guys! good effort franco whether it's E6 or E12!!!!

In reply to Michael Hood:

I think that's a fair middle ground.

In reply to ashtond6:

Yeah but, you replied as we.... Nevermind.

In reply to andy farnell:

i really hope its E10

In reply to andy farnell:

I must admit these were my first thoughts on reading the news item. If a big grade is suggested then I would want that validated by an appropriate track record on the part of the FA'ist.

In reply to andy farnell:

OK, my final 2p to you.

I think we've both demonstrated that it's an unwinnable argument either way. No-one disagrees with you that Franco's grading may be inaccurate due to lack of experience. Your take on it is that he therefore shouldn't have offered the grade, to which all I can say is 'I disagree'. It's simply a matter of opinion.

In reply to andy farnell:

Always makes me giggle when these threads pop up... It's just a grade! Grades are subjective. How do you know he didn't just think "Hmmm, well it's way harder than that E7 I did last weekend... Probably more than 1 grade harder... F**k it, E10. Yeh that'll do until someone repeats it, now time for the pub."

I'd just live it if Dave McLoed popped down and graded it at E14, just to piss everyone off.

In reply to janiejonesworld:
It's really depressing to hear people argue that sure this might be deliberate overgrading but that's actually a challenge to someone to prove it - what of honesty and integrity? An absolute bath of shite run by a shameless self publicist - who is an excellent climber way beyond my league and should know and behave better

It was worth reading this thread to find some sanity +1 to janiejonesworld

In reply to Rank_Bajin: I guess that even if you know Franco personally (which I imagine most people on this thread don't) then your post would still be out of order. I remember the grief James Pearson got when he overgraded that thing in the SW, but he has gone on to silence his critics by grinding everyone into the ground with a slew of hard repeats and FAs that made people say (very quietly) "Oh, he is really, really good and bold."

Franco is a cheeky monkey for sure, and perhaps Mr Farnell has an axe to grind with him over something, but the beauty of all this bile being spewed by people who really don't have a clue, is that I don't suppose for a moment Franco is reading this thread. He's said what he has to say (both in words and on the rock) and he is likely out climbing now, which is what all you sad cases ought to be doing.

In reply to Rank_Bajin:
>
Or alternative a brave call made to attract people to repeat it, thus establishing the actual grade, and increasing interest in the local climbing?
If he'd given it E8 nobody would bother.

I remember when Mick Fowler and Gary Gibson's early claims were sniffed at by the "in crowd". Whatever happened to them?

In reply to Rank_Bajin:

Actually it's a fascinating and enjoyable tangle of male egos, but there's nothing astonishing about it if you've ever seen an internet forum before

In reply to Frank the Husky:

I think "bile" is overstating it. You are maybe exaggerating for effect or haven't read the thread properly.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

The amazing aspect of this this thread, apart from its record ? 10000+ posts in two days, is that most posters have a valid view. In the heat of putting a few sentences together they maybe do not give a complete explanation of their opinion so that it gets taken the wrong way.

I think we have all got sucked in over climbing a few drilled holes up an obscure wall.

Well done Franco for the climb.

Very well done Franco for the wind up.

In reply to andy farnell:

This has to be finest trolling ukc has ever seen. Franco didn't even need to start the thread. 277 replies in 2 days. 10 / 10.

In reply to andy farnell:

Surely by his own standards (H grades) Franco does not think the grade is E10

In reply to snoop6060:

"This has to be finest trolling ukc has ever seen."

Best thread in the entertainment category in a while.

Well done Franco for sticking with your climb for so long and getting it done - inspirational. I'll be chuffed for you if the grade thing pans out - and if not... <shrugs>.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Drilled holes? So what, if it wasn't done to manufacture the climb. Many features on UK rock are man-made and the lad isn't claiming anything in the quality states. He found a project that suited him and worked hard to complete it. The grade claim may be cocky but it did come with provisos. I understand why the grade should be regarded as very provisional but the lack of congratulations on a very significant achievement from some here is pretty sad.

I'd remind you no one has accepted my modest 10:1 pint wager as yet, despite all the hoo-ha. I expect to lose the bet but not by much and the assessment should be pretty easy as, unlike some here, I don't think you need an E10 leader to tr this to give a rough assessment... you just need someone capable of working the bouldering grade or the equivalent sports grade.

In reply to Frank the Husky:


I think you're being a tad naive old boy. As a blatent 'self publicist' Cranko Fooksun' will be loving this exposure.
I prefer reading about climbing to climbing itself but I still think I'm entitled to comment on this thread and if I agree with the OP then what's the problem? No one got hurt and young Frankencookson will get the attention he clearly craves!

In reply to andy farnell: I Really hope your wrong! I bet the climbing is ard as he spent so much time on It. Go Franco!

In reply to andy farnell: I wouldn't read too much into the grade after reading this:


http://www.climbmagazine.com/news/2013/08/cookson-climbs-moors-testpiece

In reply to andy farnell: surely such a thing is irrelevant. the grading system is there to allow people to approach climbs that are within there capabilities. Seeing as you, and 98% of the climbers aren't climbing at this grade then who cares (and it seems that sandbagging only really happens within the top couple of grades so there's no danger to the rest of us). if you're going to get so up tight about a climb you'll probably never even stand underneath then surely you have to re-evaluate and ask yourself why you actually care? its just a number for a piece of rock

In reply to phleppy: "So I had to do it. Basically, I realised that I thought Moors new routing was worth dying for."

Really?

In reply to phleppy:

"If people just went for things, even when the odds of survival were slim, then people could climb some outrageous stuff."

"We wanted to climb a route that gave the Moors a myth."

Q: "You've given Psykovsky's Sequins a grade of E10 7a, those are big numbers, what was the reasoning behind that grade?"

"Mainly to wind people up and lay down the gauntlet! I honestly have no idea how hard it is. I've spent far too long on it to really know. All I know is that when I was climbing quite well for me I found the crux impossible. Since then I've been on it all the time, cycling there every day, and now I feel at home on the monos, but it's still terrifying. Even if I could accurately grade how hard it was for me, it's such a specific climb it would be useless for others. You need to be tall and be able to get your leg behind your head, whilst still weighing nothing. If your fingers don't fit in the holes, you can't do it."

In reply to andy farnell: So in essence and to summarise, you need to be an obsessive, narcissitic, tall, anorexic, deformed tosser with very little experience of the greater climbing world in order to climb it then?

Seriously it's still an impressive achievement.

In reply to GridNorth:


Time will (hopefuly) tell how impressive. I wonder what the editor of the forthcoming guide will do about the grade?

In reply to Jamie B:

Simple.

If a concensus grade has been made after repeats or attempts, use that.

or just a lot of daggers and question marks.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Just one dagger will suffice if there hasn't been a rockfall since the FA.

In reply to GridNorth:

Seems a bit much to call him a tosser.

He's not the first climber to want to create waves in their 20s.

In reply to snoop6060:

I was just about to post exactly this, but couldn't believe the point hadn't already been made so scrolled up the thread to check.

I congratulate Franco not only on completing his project, which is doubtless very hard and not anything anyone else will ever want to climb, but also for the magnificent elegance of his UKC trolling.

Well done Franco, you are a hero!

In reply to Timmd: Yes perhaps a little cruel but I have had run-ins with Franco in the past which led me to that conclusion and anyone who declares: "So I had to do it. Basically, I realised that I thought Moors new routing was worth dying for." is asking for it. I still think that what he has done is impressive though.

In reply to Timmd:

"tosser" is quite a mild insult for UKC.

I wonder what is the worst that the mods have had to deal with?

In reply to GridNorth:

Franco is actually quite a nice lad when you meet him in person.

We all know what he is like on here.

I heard he had about 30 user names at one time, now you should find that impressive.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


If that was his intention then he's done well (although I wonder if his acolytes that were taken in now feel foolish having leapt to his defence). The thing is, Franco would dearly love to be accepted by the wider climbing populous and in that regard he's shot himself in the foot. His climbing opus will now be remembered not as the hard climb it obviously is but 'that route that some bloke graded E10 for a wind up'. Instead of enhancing his reputation as a climber he's enhanced his reputation as someone not to be taken seriously.

In reply to Frank the Husky:


Stupidest thing I've ever read

In reply to andy farnell:


While we're all on here talking, Franco is out there doing it. I think it's time to move on:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=267637

In reply to Rick Graham:


Brilliant! i hope that is true!

In reply to Rick Graham: I'm sure he is a nice guy, it's his on line persona I dislike though so I'm only insulting that.

In reply to The Pylon King:

I heard he's bruce hooker, popshot, gudrun, sam in leeds and andy farnell....

In reply to Tyler:


I don't see why, someone will have to repeat it first before any of us can have an objective reason to doubt... and even then not everyone gives much of a damn about what grade a climb is given.

If he is reading this thread I would just like to say take it easy a bit, judging by these threads, your video and so on you seem to be pushing things a bit It's only a hobby, not worth dying for... this from someone who lost one of his best friends in a climbing accident at about your age. There's a lot to life you'll miss if the next time you fall you land on your head!

In reply to Tyler:

Dear Tyler, you obviously read nothing that is printed in any media (apart from UKC). Can I recommend starting with "My First Story Book" and then perhaps you can move on from there?

Franco is out climbing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuxegxYIYYQ&feature=youtu.be

This was yesterday while you and others were getting worked up over things you don't understand. As an interesting aside, he's the only person in 14 years to try to repeat O'Gradey's Incuable Itch (E9) at Tintwistle, and he was decent enough to take the full ride from the top to the ground (about 70ft), snapping shitty pegs on the way down.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Since when was climbing a hobby?

Stamp collecting and Golf are hobbies.

And driving a car is probably more dangerous!

In reply to andy farnell: I think finding the true grade of this climb is a case of deduction really, I've now tried the on top rope and can definitly confirm it is harder that MVS.
Mark.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

He took the time to email me in response to my post above though, so I don't think he is quite as disconnected from this thread as you might have us believe. I think it's rather clear Franco that enjoys his 'notoriety' in our little circle!

In reply to Frank the Husky:

You must be mistaken as that's not an unknown E9 on his home territory so it can't be true, implying as it would that hes not so far from knowing what a E10 might feel like.

Being serious for a moment there may have been more modest quiet attempts in that time. Not everyone is so keen on publicity that they would fall off such a beast on purpose to generate publicity.

In reply to andy farnell: climb it Farnell, prove Franco wrong and stop bitching like a little girl!!

In reply to Frank the Husky:
Fare play he's climbed some hard routes, can't comment on if the new one is E10 or not as I am not good enough a climber and I've not been there... Just wandered do you normally ab down to the base of the crag at Stoupe Brow? If not Franco's not doing himself any favours claiming a ground up ascent of the route on that video (Panda To The Masses) while leaving what looks like a top-rope setup in clear view right at the top.

In reply to Rich_cakeboy: I quite clearly stated on my blog that we abed the line to clean it. What you can see is a strop to protect the edge. You can call it 'Ground up with Beta' if that makes you happier. Cleaning was essential unfortunately.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

<Like>

In reply to andy farnell: As others have stated, it's a good effort regardless of the grade. I agree he can only give it his best estimate.

Let's see what happens when someone repeats it, until then, we shouldn't speculate. Especially given most of us couldn't even contemplate E10. or E9 for that matter.

ML.

In reply to The Pylon King:


That depends how you climb and how you drive I've lost far more pals climbing than in car accidents, but let's not take the thread of subject.

PS. I can't see how E10 can be safer than driving along the road!