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Following a recent trip to the Italian and French Alps I discovered that helicopter rescue is actually 'free' in both countries if the situation is genuinely deemed an emergency. This, combined with the EHIC (new E111) suggests that I don't need BMC-style insurance when I go climbing?
I know that the insurances cover things like baggage theft etc, but if I was only concerned about rescue and medical expenses, what does the insurance give you that isn't 'free' in France and Italy?
Cheers
I know that the insurances cover things like baggage theft etc, but if I was only concerned about rescue and medical expenses, what does the insurance give you that isn't 'free' in France and Italy?
Cheers
In reply to edunn: A specialist nurse to come out and collect you, ambulance to the airport and all three seats in a row so you can put your badly broken leg across them, then another ambulance at the airport to take you to your doorstep.
If your climbing partners have all had to return home a few days earlier having someone who looks like your grandma crossed with the strict matron form the carry on films come out and take charge of everything is rather nice. I don't think I've been that well looked after since I was 2 years old.
Hope that's useful.
Cheers
Toby
If your climbing partners have all had to return home a few days earlier having someone who looks like your grandma crossed with the strict matron form the carry on films come out and take charge of everything is rather nice. I don't think I've been that well looked after since I was 2 years old.
Hope that's useful.
Cheers
Toby
In reply to edunn:
Medical costs
Unless I'm mistaken (a very likely possibility) the EHIC card only entitles you to receiving treatment at the same cost that the local pay.
I broke my back skiing once, I seem to recall that the costs were about £25,00 (presumably for hospital say, airport transfer, chartered plane with a bed and nurse in it etc)
Medical costs
Unless I'm mistaken (a very likely possibility) the EHIC card only entitles you to receiving treatment at the same cost that the local pay.
I broke my back skiing once, I seem to recall that the costs were about £25,00 (presumably for hospital say, airport transfer, chartered plane with a bed and nurse in it etc)
In reply to Toby_W:
Spot on! Repatriation is a potentially huge expense that it's all too easy to overlook.
When I was unlucky enough to need to use my insurance it paid for 3 of us to reschedule our journey home including hotels. It buys a lot of piece of mind at a time when you most need it.
> (In reply to edunn) A specialist nurse to come out and collect you, ambulance to the airport and all three seats in a row so you can put your badly broken leg across them, then another ambulance at the airport to take you to your doorstep.
>
> If your climbing partners have all had to return home a few days earlier having someone who looks like your grandma crossed with the strict matron form the carry on films come out and take charge of everything is rather nice. I don't think I've been that well looked after since I was 2 years old.
>
> Hope that's useful.
>
> Cheers
>
> Toby
>
> If your climbing partners have all had to return home a few days earlier having someone who looks like your grandma crossed with the strict matron form the carry on films come out and take charge of everything is rather nice. I don't think I've been that well looked after since I was 2 years old.
>
> Hope that's useful.
>
> Cheers
>
> Toby
Spot on! Repatriation is a potentially huge expense that it's all too easy to overlook.
When I was unlucky enough to need to use my insurance it paid for 3 of us to reschedule our journey home including hotels. It buys a lot of piece of mind at a time when you most need it.
In reply to timjones:
OK, cheers all. That answers the question.
I guess I was only looking at it from an 'I need rescuing' point of view and thought that the medical bills were completely covered.
Hadn't considered repatriation.
Certainly worth the £30-odd it costs a couple of times each year to cover the trip!
Cheers.
OK, cheers all. That answers the question.
I guess I was only looking at it from an 'I need rescuing' point of view and thought that the medical bills were completely covered.
Hadn't considered repatriation.
Certainly worth the £30-odd it costs a couple of times each year to cover the trip!
Cheers.
In reply to edunn:
just check what 'rescue insurance' covers. sometimes its only from the point of extraction to the nearest suitable facility, which may be an ambo waiting in a car park. from there its your problem.
not always, but nasty finding out the hard way.
plus all the other stuff folks above are pointing out
its one thing to eschew buying insurance, its another to not know what youre not covered for.
just check what 'rescue insurance' covers. sometimes its only from the point of extraction to the nearest suitable facility, which may be an ambo waiting in a car park. from there its your problem.
not always, but nasty finding out the hard way.
plus all the other stuff folks above are pointing out
its one thing to eschew buying insurance, its another to not know what youre not covered for.
In reply to edunn: In addition to the points made by other people, if you need medical costs other than hospital (which can be quite considerable), they are not covered by the EHIC card. Also, helicopter rescue MAY be charged for in Italy, and sometimes in France as well.
The EHIC card is the minimum you need, and is not really adequate.
The EHIC card is the minimum you need, and is not really adequate.
In reply to edunn: Out of interest does anyone know when exactly helicopter rescue became free. My mate was billed for over £2000 back in the 80's around Chamonix.
In reply to GridNorth:
It's always been a free public service in France, at least since the 70s for people climbing, the situation may be different on ski domains. As for medical costs for non-residents before the EU came about you would have been charged and if you lived and worked in France reimbursed by the insurance system, but without this insurance you would have had to pay I think.
I heard such horror stories about British climbers in Chamonix being uncared for in the hospital but nowadays you should be alright. The repatriation question is valid but on the other hand what are the chances? I've never taken out special insurance but sometimes various household policies cover things... You seem to accumulate all sorts of policies and then when you have a problem none of them actually pay up so after many years of not paying and not needing insurance I am well ahead.
It's a personal choice though but I've always been a little puzzled that risk averse people should choose such a risky hobby as climbing
It's always been a free public service in France, at least since the 70s for people climbing, the situation may be different on ski domains. As for medical costs for non-residents before the EU came about you would have been charged and if you lived and worked in France reimbursed by the insurance system, but without this insurance you would have had to pay I think.
I heard such horror stories about British climbers in Chamonix being uncared for in the hospital but nowadays you should be alright. The repatriation question is valid but on the other hand what are the chances? I've never taken out special insurance but sometimes various household policies cover things... You seem to accumulate all sorts of policies and then when you have a problem none of them actually pay up so after many years of not paying and not needing insurance I am well ahead.
It's a personal choice though but I've always been a little puzzled that risk averse people should choose such a risky hobby as climbing
In reply to edunn: A colleague recently told me the story of one of his mates gone motorcycling to Indonesia (ok not climbing, but similar consequences if you screw up). Didn't bother to take an insurance for the travel. Accident, paraplegic. Apart from the hospital costs, the only way to take him back to the UK was apparently to heliport him. Of course, that took several weeks, needed an incredible flight plan over crazy places and cost several hundred grands. His parents and siblings had to sell their houses.
Don't fool around with insurance.
Don't fool around with insurance.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
You're missing the fundamental truth that insurance and climbing are very similar, they're both all about managing risk.
>
> It's a personal choice though but I've always been a little puzzled that risk averse people should choose such a risky hobby as climbing
> It's a personal choice though but I've always been a little puzzled that risk averse people should choose such a risky hobby as climbing
You're missing the fundamental truth that insurance and climbing are very similar, they're both all about managing risk.
In reply to drolex:
Quite so. It's all too easy to think of a climbing accident that might happen to you as, 'Silly me: I've broken my ankle. If I could just get a lift back down, I'll pop over to A&E and hop home afterwards' and not 'i'm going to be breathing through a tube for the foreseeable future while the world moves on despite me'.
At what level of medical emergency would you say 'I wish I'd spent (£££ one tank of petrol) on a decent policy' bearing in mind that your accident operates independently and without checking with you first?
>
> Don't fool around with insurance.
> Don't fool around with insurance.
Quite so. It's all too easy to think of a climbing accident that might happen to you as, 'Silly me: I've broken my ankle. If I could just get a lift back down, I'll pop over to A&E and hop home afterwards' and not 'i'm going to be breathing through a tube for the foreseeable future while the world moves on despite me'.
At what level of medical emergency would you say 'I wish I'd spent (£££ one tank of petrol) on a decent policy' bearing in mind that your accident operates independently and without checking with you first?
In reply to nniff:
I know the reasoning but it is a fairly recent one, not that long ago when insurance was introduced there was a fairly vigorous debate about the morality of insurance, those against said it encouraged carelessness and irresponsibility. I accept that house insurance for subsidence and fire are worth having as the cost in these cases is really so high, as fro motoring insurance but theft of property less so and for climbing I didn't really bother much except by joining an Alpine club for cheap hut fees when I went for any longish period, but it was more for cheap huts.
Obviously the insurance companies like the scare stories, you know it makes sense, but if you want to calculate the risk just divide the possible payout + a bit of profit by the premium, not that high. Then ask yourself if you are feeling lucky
I know the reasoning but it is a fairly recent one, not that long ago when insurance was introduced there was a fairly vigorous debate about the morality of insurance, those against said it encouraged carelessness and irresponsibility. I accept that house insurance for subsidence and fire are worth having as the cost in these cases is really so high, as fro motoring insurance but theft of property less so and for climbing I didn't really bother much except by joining an Alpine club for cheap hut fees when I went for any longish period, but it was more for cheap huts.
Obviously the insurance companies like the scare stories, you know it makes sense, but if you want to calculate the risk just divide the possible payout + a bit of profit by the premium, not that high. Then ask yourself if you are feeling lucky
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Of course, but when you do some risk management, you usually consider 2 main scenarios:
1/ what will most probably happen?
2/ what will probably not happen, but would have very high impact if it did?
And you plan for both.
From a statistical point of view, your mathematical expectation is already negative if you don't take an insurance - taking an insurance only makes it marginally worse, but you are improving your standard deviation a lot.
Another way to think of it: would you play the lottery every week? If so, don't take an insurance (you like surprises! but they rarely happen). If not, take one.
> Obviously the insurance companies like the scare stories, you know it makes sense, but if you want to calculate the risk just divide the possible payout + a bit of profit by the premium, not that high. Then ask yourself if you are feeling lucky
Of course, but when you do some risk management, you usually consider 2 main scenarios:
1/ what will most probably happen?
2/ what will probably not happen, but would have very high impact if it did?
And you plan for both.
From a statistical point of view, your mathematical expectation is already negative if you don't take an insurance - taking an insurance only makes it marginally worse, but you are improving your standard deviation a lot.
Another way to think of it: would you play the lottery every week? If so, don't take an insurance (you like surprises! but they rarely happen). If not, take one.
In reply to drolex:
It's a bit like the question of whether there should be rescue services, in mountains and at sea, for leisure. Some might argue that these pastimes are essentially dangerous and require great care from the individual but are of no social use, just for individual pleasure so there is no reason why others should put themselves at risk for them - they should be responsible and prudent enough for this to be unnecessary.
Not many go along with this line of reasoning nowadays but I don't think it is completely absurd... especially when you see the daft risks people take in the mountains and at sea. But each to his own, if you can afford it take out insurance just in case but I would be fibbing if I said that I did.
It's a bit like the question of whether there should be rescue services, in mountains and at sea, for leisure. Some might argue that these pastimes are essentially dangerous and require great care from the individual but are of no social use, just for individual pleasure so there is no reason why others should put themselves at risk for them - they should be responsible and prudent enough for this to be unnecessary.
Not many go along with this line of reasoning nowadays but I don't think it is completely absurd... especially when you see the daft risks people take in the mountains and at sea. But each to his own, if you can afford it take out insurance just in case but I would be fibbing if I said that I did.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
As a general rule, only buy insurance for things you wouldn't be able to afford to replace. I worked for a year in the claims dept of a travel insurer. Trust me, the costs can be unimaginably high, even for relatively minor injuries abroad.
As a general rule, only buy insurance for things you wouldn't be able to afford to replace. I worked for a year in the claims dept of a travel insurer. Trust me, the costs can be unimaginably high, even for relatively minor injuries abroad.
In reply to Eric the Red:
Yes, I know, I don't dispute this, not having insurance is gambling to a certain extent, but it is also trusting your own ability to look after yourself.
On the other hand many things are out of your hands - being in an accident on the road or having a house which suffers subsidence, a recent one anyway, so I would insure for them. I had a house once that was 150 years old so I didn't bother with insurance as if it was going to sink it already would have done. I save a bit of money, but I admit I could have lost a lot too if it had burnt down. Don't you think life without risk a little dull?
> Trust me, the costs can be unimaginably high, even for relatively minor injuries abroad.
Yes, I know, I don't dispute this, not having insurance is gambling to a certain extent, but it is also trusting your own ability to look after yourself.
On the other hand many things are out of your hands - being in an accident on the road or having a house which suffers subsidence, a recent one anyway, so I would insure for them. I had a house once that was 150 years old so I didn't bother with insurance as if it was going to sink it already would have done. I save a bit of money, but I admit I could have lost a lot too if it had burnt down. Don't you think life without risk a little dull?
In reply to edunn:
It's only the helicopter bit that's free. All the rest you have to pay for or claim off your insurance. When I got lifted down to Chamonix after a large rock crushed my foot, I was surprised to get a bill for nearly €1000. This was for the medic who comes with the PGHM/Sécurité Civile crew. Eventually my insurance company agreed to pay it, but not without a fight. Also worth knowing is that the heli dropped me off at Chamonix hospital at a few minutes before 6:00pm. The hospital closes at six. So they ordered an ambulance for me to go to Sallanches. This was also charged and eventually picked up by the insurance company.
It's only the helicopter bit that's free. All the rest you have to pay for or claim off your insurance. When I got lifted down to Chamonix after a large rock crushed my foot, I was surprised to get a bill for nearly €1000. This was for the medic who comes with the PGHM/Sécurité Civile crew. Eventually my insurance company agreed to pay it, but not without a fight. Also worth knowing is that the heli dropped me off at Chamonix hospital at a few minutes before 6:00pm. The hospital closes at six. So they ordered an ambulance for me to go to Sallanches. This was also charged and eventually picked up by the insurance company.
In reply to jon:
Didn't you have French SS and a mutuelle? That should have covered these things unless you being in a professional situation makes a difference?
Didn't you have French SS and a mutuelle? That should have covered these things unless you being in a professional situation makes a difference?
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Yes, I have both. It wasn't in a professional situation. The bill came out of the blue a few weeks later. As I said, I had to argue with the insurance company before they'd give in a cough up. There was no question of it being paid by the SS.
Yes, I have both. It wasn't in a professional situation. The bill came out of the blue a few weeks later. As I said, I had to argue with the insurance company before they'd give in a cough up. There was no question of it being paid by the SS.
In reply to jon:
Just goes to show all those years I assumed I was covered perhaps I wasn't! Ignorance is bliss. I knew on ski domains they could charge you as you could pay a bit extra to be covered, just as well I was lucky then
Just goes to show all those years I assumed I was covered perhaps I wasn't! Ignorance is bliss. I knew on ski domains they could charge you as you could pay a bit extra to be covered, just as well I was lucky then
In reply to jon: was it your mutuelle insurance that paid or another one like the BMC or Austrian alpine club? If I have SS and mutuelle insurance and the heli is free do I actually need additional insurance?
In reply to Ben Briggs:
No, it wasn't my CAF insurance that paid up. As far as I remember it was my mutuelle santé with MAAF that paid. The main point here is that the medic's cost isn't covered like the PGHM/Sécurité Civile/heli is.
No, it wasn't my CAF insurance that paid up. As far as I remember it was my mutuelle santé with MAAF that paid. The main point here is that the medic's cost isn't covered like the PGHM/Sécurité Civile/heli is.
In reply to jon: yeah I was aware of that, so in what circumstance would you need the CAF insurance where you wouldn't be covered by anything else? I have life insurance and mutuelle insurance so am I gaining anything with AAC? I suppose just reciprocal rights but I don't use huts much.
In reply to jon: yeah hadn't thought of that I will keep it then! Thanks.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Well now Bruce, I've been trying to remember the details of this - it was five years ago. It's possible that the Sécu did pay their part and that initially the MAAF refused and then gave in... MAAF are a bunch of crooks. The amount they've actually paid up in various situations has been completely minimal. As the guy at AGF told me, you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
Well now Bruce, I've been trying to remember the details of this - it was five years ago. It's possible that the Sécu did pay their part and that initially the MAAF refused and then gave in... MAAF are a bunch of crooks. The amount they've actually paid up in various situations has been completely minimal. As the guy at AGF told me, you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
In reply to jon:
I've just got the MACIF as when you retire you have to pay your own mutuelle and with them you have a whole load of different options, 4 IIRC, the more you pay the better cover you get. We both took the medium one then found it didn't cover doctors who charge over the standard SS price, as more and more do and the option we took didn't cover that!
That's why I'm a bit negative on insurance, you always seem top pay up and then find you're not covered... On the other hand my car had acid splashes on the bodywork the other day and the MACIF paid for a complete respray - 4000€ worth, so sometimes they pay. I didn't ask them to do this, I expected just the bonnet and wing, but the garage worked it out with the assessor.
I've just got the MACIF as when you retire you have to pay your own mutuelle and with them you have a whole load of different options, 4 IIRC, the more you pay the better cover you get. We both took the medium one then found it didn't cover doctors who charge over the standard SS price, as more and more do and the option we took didn't cover that!
That's why I'm a bit negative on insurance, you always seem top pay up and then find you're not covered... On the other hand my car had acid splashes on the bodywork the other day and the MACIF paid for a complete respray - 4000€ worth, so sometimes they pay. I didn't ask them to do this, I expected just the bonnet and wing, but the garage worked it out with the assessor.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I can certainly remember several cases of people being rescued in the 80's and having to pay for the helicopter, or at least their insurance did. In those days the medical care seemed to be excellent. My only complaint is that nobody would re-imburse me for the £30 it cost to have stitches in my elbow, although I was supposed to be covered However, that's a a very minor complaint.
> (In reply to GridNorth)
>
> It's always been a free public service in France, at least since the 70s for people climbing, the situation may be different on ski domains. As for medical costs for non-residents before the EU came about you would have been charged and if you lived and worked in France reimbursed by the insurance system, but without this insurance you would have had to pay I think.
>
>
> It's always been a free public service in France, at least since the 70s for people climbing, the situation may be different on ski domains. As for medical costs for non-residents before the EU came about you would have been charged and if you lived and worked in France reimbursed by the insurance system, but without this insurance you would have had to pay I think.
>
I can certainly remember several cases of people being rescued in the 80's and having to pay for the helicopter, or at least their insurance did. In those days the medical care seemed to be excellent. My only complaint is that nobody would re-imburse me for the £30 it cost to have stitches in my elbow, although I was supposed to be covered However, that's a a very minor complaint.
In reply to drolex:
As an aside I used to have a travel policy attached to my bank account. Prior to a trekking trip to Asia I asked the bank if it covered me for helicopter rescue etc. After an initial response which suggested that he didn't understand why I might need rescuing by chopper he said "Oh yes, it's all OK" His tone didn't exactly inspire me and I took out BMC cover.
Subsequent enquiries suggest that bank account insurance cover might not always be worth the paper they're written on. I called on it once for a car breakdown and still had to pay hefty recovery charges.
> Don't fool around with insurance.
Or, more to the point, don't fool around without it! ;0)As an aside I used to have a travel policy attached to my bank account. Prior to a trekking trip to Asia I asked the bank if it covered me for helicopter rescue etc. After an initial response which suggested that he didn't understand why I might need rescuing by chopper he said "Oh yes, it's all OK" His tone didn't exactly inspire me and I took out BMC cover.
Subsequent enquiries suggest that bank account insurance cover might not always be worth the paper they're written on. I called on it once for a car breakdown and still had to pay hefty recovery charges.
In reply to edunn: I don't think anyone has mentioned the fact that the cost repatriation of a dead body is not a nice present to leave loved ones paying for!
In reply to edunn: Having been in hosptial in France when I was younger due to some extreme sun burn, I (or my Dad...) found out that the EHIC (E111)does not cover your stay in hospital, only the treatment when you are there. They send you a bill for the 'accomodation'. depending on where you are, it could get expensive.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
There are times when risk makes life a bit interesting, yes. But risking the financial future of my family because I didn't want to pay £40 or so is a bit silly. I can't see myself lieing in a hospital bed in a foreign country thinking "oh, I've just lost my house to pay for this, but at least my life was a bit risky and I saved £40."
There are many faults with the insurance industry but there are also many, reputable companies who provide protection against large financial losses for a reasonable cost. People always buy the cheapest cover they can find and then moan when those companies fight over their claims. Pay more, get proper peace of mind and genuine protection.
There are times when risk makes life a bit interesting, yes. But risking the financial future of my family because I didn't want to pay £40 or so is a bit silly. I can't see myself lieing in a hospital bed in a foreign country thinking "oh, I've just lost my house to pay for this, but at least my life was a bit risky and I saved £40."
There are many faults with the insurance industry but there are also many, reputable companies who provide protection against large financial losses for a reasonable cost. People always buy the cheapest cover they can find and then moan when those companies fight over their claims. Pay more, get proper peace of mind and genuine protection.
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