/ Making Cycle Helmets Mandatory

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Blizzard - on 02 Aug 2013

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/active/recreational-cycling/10213508/Should-cyclists-be-forced-to-wear-he...

Not good if it reduces the number of cyclists by 35%. Personally I am against it. What do you think?
a lakeland climber on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

Leave things as they are - i.e. recommended but not compulsory. How would cycle hire schemes like Boris Bikes work for instance? The article was reasonably balanced I thought. Helmets are only designed for low speed impacts, something like hitting the ground at 12mph I recall, so aren't going to be much use if you are in collision with a motor vehicle where the combined speeds are likely to be greater. I always find it amusing that the proponents say a helmet makes cycling safer - well they don't protect against broken arms, legs, wrists, collar bones or road rash, all of which are more likely than a head injury.

I do wear a helmet when cycling BTW.

ALC
Rampikino - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

"Personally I am against it." is hardly a basis for a debate.

We lived in New Zealand for a while and helmets are mandatory. It got us into good habits for good reasons.
yorkshireman - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

Against, because it creates an implication that if a cyclist is not wearing a helmet, then they suddenly 'deserve' any injury they get.

FWIW, I always wear a helmet and have done for years, but it's my choice. However I would only cycle to work and back (showers at either end) or for fun at the weekends, so I never worried about helmet hair etc.

The same issue is with cycle lanes. A great idea in principle but they make other road users think that if we're not using them, then cyclists are fair game, rather than treating them as part of the traffic.
a crap climber - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

I think people should be allowed to make their own decisions and take some responsibility for themselves.
Neil Williams - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

Against. There are types of cycling where it is good to wear one (cities with congested roads, mountain biking) and there are types of cycling where it is broadly unnecessary (low speed cycling on dedicated off-road paths such as the MK Redways). Leave it to the individual cyclists' own risk assessments, or that of their parents/families.

As with climbing, some prefer to wear one at all times and not bother with that RA, I'm absolutely fine with that, that's their choice, and I will (unlike some people who are against helmet laws) never suggest anyone has made the wrong choice by wearing one. But (as I hate having things on my head and they cause me to overheat) I prefer to decide based on the individual situation.

Neil
Neil Williams - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to a lakeland climber:

" How would cycle hire schemes like Boris Bikes work for instance?"

ISTR hearing that in a country (NZ?) where they are mandatory, vending machines sell cheap disposable ones for a few quid. The environmental ethic of that is rather debatable, though.

Neil
TLishing - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Rampikino:
What do you mean good habits? Did you donate more to charity? Help our neighbour?
Neil Williams - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Rampikino:

""Personally I am against it." is hardly a basis for a debate."

Why not? It's a good way to start one.

"We lived in New Zealand for a while and helmets are mandatory. It got us into good habits for good reasons."

I find actively and continuously assessing risk also a good habit.

Neil
Durbs on 02 Aug 2013
>In reply to a lakeland climber:
> (In reply to Blizzard)
>I always find it amusing that the proponents say a helmet makes cycling safer - well they don't protect against broken arms, legs, wrists, collar bones or road rash, all of which are more likely than a head injury.


Because a head-injury is potentially much more life-changing/fatal compared to a broken wrist/arm/leg?



I'm still surprised they aren't mandatory. You have to wear a seatbelt in a car, a helmet on a motorbike...
If not for adults, then certainly under 18 year-olds.

What always surprises me is seeing parents cycling with their children, parents wearing helmets, kids not.

Interestingly, a study (no time to find it, but it's there!) found children are much more likely to receive an head-injury from using scooters/micro-scooters than riding a bike. The proximity to the ground, combined with the nearly equal speed of fall means you don't have as much time to put your hands out to protect yourself.
TLishing - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Durbs: You surprise very easily.
girlymonkey - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Blizzard: If helmets were made compulsory - would there be lessons in how to fit one correctly?! I often want to inform parents that their child's helmet is not protecting their head correctly when it sits on the back of the head and doesn't cover the forehead! I never have spoken to parents about it, I feel it's not my place, but I see if so often that I wonder if I should.
Rampikino - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to TLishing:

I will give you the benefit of the doubt here and presume you were asking a genuine question, not just being silly.

The process of putting on the helmet prompted us to think more about us and our bikes. So rather than just jumping off and cycling away it helped us get into the habit of doing some other checks on the bikes - tyres, brakes, chain etc.

Physically putting the helmet on was also a good reminder to consider safety.

And yes, you don't need a helmet to do those, but for us it was neither an inconvenience nor an issue. It was a positive thing.
TLishing - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Rampikino: So, to be clear, are you saying that it should be mandatory for everyone to wear a helmet because you found that it make you think about safety?

I'm trying to understand how your comment furthers the discussion.
Neil Williams - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Rampikino:

An interesting point. Presumably it made you think about cycling as a risky activity rather than a day-to-day mode of transport?

Good or bad? A bit of both there, I think.

FWIW, on the occasions I do wear one it doesn't make me check those items any more than usual.

Neil
Neil Williams - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Durbs:

"You have to wear a seatbelt in a car, a helmet on a motorbike... "

Both of those activities involve far higher speeds. That argument could extend to walking, particularly on an icy day.

Neil
girlymonkey - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Neil Williams: or indeed, getting out of the bath. My Dad gave himself a bad head injury in the bathroom!
Chris the Tall - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
Always wear a helmet, but disagree strongly that it should be mandatory.

Has anyone suggested that the way to cut knife crime is to make the wearing of flak jackets compulsory?

Are there calls to make motorists wear helmets ?
Neil Williams - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

To be fair, motorists have airbags on almost all new cars (is it now required, like ABS is?) which fulfil the same purpose.

Neil
Chris the Tall - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:
Indeed, although there is an argument that says we'd have less accidents if motorists felt as vulnerable as other road users
Rampikino - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to TLishing:

You just lost the benefit of the doubt.
Durbs on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to TLishing:
> (In reply to Durbs) You surprise very easily.

I do, it's nice - my life is a constant series of exciting things.
Marek - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:
> (In reply to Chris the Tall)
>
> To be fair, motorists have airbags on almost all new cars (is it now required, like ABS is?) which fulfil the same purpose.
>
> Neil

Same purpose? No. The purpose of airbags - and various other car 'improvements' - is to ensure that cars are less economically mainainable and therefore to increase new car sales and improve the car manufactures' revenue streams.
Rampikino - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:
> (In reply to Rampikino)
>
> An interesting point. Presumably it made you think about cycling as a risky activity rather than a day-to-day mode of transport?
>
> Good or bad? A bit of both there, I think.
>
> FWIW, on the occasions I do wear one it doesn't make me check those items any more than usual.
>
> Neil

I think a number of things were at play - the knowledge that a Policeman could stop us at any time and give us an on-the-spot fine was one motivation. But also the routine it got us into gave us a bit more thought about the whole process. We used our bikes both for getting to/from work but also for fun at places like Woodhill. We both fell off our bikes a few times and in hindsight I'm glad we had the extra bit of safety.

I guess I should point out that I've not made a call one way or the other - I was simply pointing to an experience in a country where it is enshrined in the law.

Over here we always wear them - we've got into the habit and it makes a lot of sense.
TLishing - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Rampikino: I never asked for you to give me the benefit of the doubt.

You responded to Blizzard with - "Personally I am against it." is hardly a basis for a debate.

The contribution you then made to the debate was to say it's mandatory in New Zealand. How does that help the debate? Shall we just go through every country in the world and say what their position on helmets is?

Or, should we only take the views from countries where you have lived?
Neil Williams - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Marek:

You can think that. Meanwhile I'd rather be involved in an accident in a car with an airbag than one without.

Neil
Neil Williams - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to TLishing:

It helps in the debate if someone then goes and researches what the effects of it actually were, I guess, e.g. improved safety/reduced cycling and by what margin.

Neil
Rampikino - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to TLishing:

Wow you amazing f*cking freedom fighter you. How high is that horse?
TLishing - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Neil Williams: Quite agree. That type of contribution would be useful.
TLishing - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Rampikino: Making Horse Riding Helmets Mandatory.

What do they do in New Zealand?
ads.ukclimbing.com
Rampikino - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to TLishing:

Your contribution is what exactly? Other than to snide other posters?
RankAmateur on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

Seatbelts were shown to reduce the incidence of almost all types of harm in car accidents, and result in a fairly major saving in terms of health care. That's why they were made compulsory.

I assume a similar cost benefit analysis for motorbike helmets was made at some point as well.

There's no overwhelming evidence that helmets would significantly save money or reduce harm, so no government is going to change/introduce legislation without firm evidence to back it up.


Hang on...
Ramblin dave - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to RankAmateur:

> There's no overwhelming evidence that helmets would significantly save money or reduce harm

There's a lot of emotionally charged arm-waving, though, and that has to count for something. Won't someone please think of the children!

Rampikino - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to RankAmateur:

It's hard to say. I get the sense that 'hard-core' cyclists are quick to demand that more is done to legislate in relation to motorists but not so quick to accept legislation for themselves.

4 deaths in NZ in 2012 compared to 118 in GB (or 122 depending on where you look).

Population of GB is 15x that of UK.

Hard to infer anything from numbers alone.
Marek - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:
> (In reply to Marek)
>
> You can think that. Meanwhile I'd rather be involved in an accident in a car with an airbag than one without.
>
> Neil

Ah, but that's not the point here. I would like to have an airbag if I was to be in an accident (and indeed I always wear a bike helmet). But do you believe that it should be a criminal offence to drive a car without an airbag? I don't. I think it should be a personal choice. Over-enthusiastic legislation to protect us from our own mistakes logically lead to websites like this becoming a historical anachronism ("What is this climbing they speak of?").
Marek - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Rampikino:
> (In reply to RankAmateur)
>
> It's hard to say. I get the sense that 'hard-core' cyclists are quick to demand that more is done to legislate in relation to motorists but not so quick to accept legislation for themselves.
>

It's a matter of balance. A cyclist is likely to bear the brunt of the consequences of their or a driver mistake and therefore is motivated to be more careful. The driver is very unlikely to be injured, will suffer little financial loss and (assuming it was their negligence) is unlikely to suffer civil or criminal consequences (based on recent evidence). The driver has less of that basic self-protection motivation to be careful. The argument therefore is that to redress that, the legal bias must favour the cyclist to balance the physical bias in favour of the driver such that they are equally motivated to avoid an collision.
LastBoyScout on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

I'm all in favour of wearing them, but not in favour of it being law - it's too nanny state and the police don't have the capacity to enforce it anyway. Think about bike lights.

I wear one most of the time, always when I'm out mountain biking, always on the road bike, but not often on the hack bike just popping to the shops - but that's a considered risk, taking into account several factors.

I'd prefer it if social trends moved in favour of using them, as well as more visible clothing and bike lights.

As far as I can tell, many people's cycling would be much safer if they worked on their cycling ability and road awareness, rather than just stuck a helmet on for when they come unstuck - case in point being a PCSO we nearly ran over twice last year, circumstances of which I can't be bothered to type.

You can take safety to extremes. Earlier this week, I saw a dad with 2 boys on micro scooters, both wearing helmets and high-viz jackets that were almost down to their knees - seemed a bit overkill on a wide pavement in the middle of a residential area.
Neil Williams - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Marek:

" But do you believe that it should be a criminal offence to drive a car without an airbag? I don't."

No, and it isn't, though it might well be the case that new cars must be manufactured with them, which is (over time) the same thing. This kind of situation has an advantage in that it reduces, over time, those of limited budget being put off choosing a safer car because the cheaper ones are less safe.

A comparison is perhaps the idea that food hygiene laws mean you can't serve ratburgers (well...) to keep costs down - everyone must follow at least some basic standards.

But I doubt cost puts anyone off wearing a cycle helmet, as they are 3 in Tesco, so if you can afford a bike you can afford a helmet.

Neil
Neil Williams - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to LastBoyScout:

This is true. I sometimes get the feeling I am just about the only person in MK who uses bike lights, and there is no enforcement. Yes, the paths are segregated, but as a pedestrian (or when I went for a run last night on a completely unlit path) it is nice to know when a stealth cyclist is approaching at high speed.

Neil
elsewhere on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
If the Telegraph is to be believed then the studies show that the benefits of the exercise outweigh the risk of injury and that mandatory cycle helmets would worsen public health by reducing cycling. Hence I don't think helmets should be mandatory.
Ramblin dave - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to LastBoyScout:
> (In reply to Blizzard)
>
> I'm all in favour of wearing them, but not in favour of it being law - it's too nanny state

Agree on both counts - there's also a fair amount of evidence that for whatever reason, compulsory helmet laws result in a net reduction in the number of people cycling, and that a reduction in the number of people cycling makes it less safe for those who are left. Hence from the selfish point of view of someone who wears a helmet anyway, compulsory helmet legislation would be an unmitigated Bad Thing.

> As far as I can tell, many people's cycling would be much safer if they worked on their cycling ability and road awareness, rather than just stuck a helmet on for when they come unstuck

Very strongly agree. A helmet won't help you if you get squashed by a lorry, knowing where not to position yourself to avoid getting squashed in the first place will. Lorries being designed to have fewer blind spots would also help.

a lakeland climber on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Rampikino:

Your cycling fatality figures also don't take in to account the number of miles (kilometres) travelled by bicycle in each country. Having the figure as x fatalities per 1 million Km or similar is probably the only reasonable way to compare countries.

A good number of the cycling deaths in London are due to large vehicles turning left and the cyclist being to the left of the vehicle - as much the fault of the cyclist as the vehicle driver. A helmet isn't going to do much good with a 40 tonne truck running over your torso.

Like I've said, I wear one but I'm under no illusion that the protection it offers is anything but slight once you are moving at any reasonable speed.

If as much effort was put in to improving the standard of behaviour of all road users then that would be much more use. I'm going to trade in our car as it's obvious round here that newer models are fitted with a device that lets you see round corners and over blind summits!

ALC
Bloodfire - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Blizzard: I wear one when I feel like it and don't wear one when I don't feel like it. I like to have that choice. I always wear one when out mountain biking, or in poor conditions and winter but when I have the Ray Bans on and am just chillin, I like the wind in my hair. It's my risk but I understand that.
Kimono - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Blizzard:
I am very happy that I spend a large amount of time living in a country where I can largely do what I want.
To that end, I tend to wear a seatbelt when driving a car -but not always.
I don't wear a helmet on my scooter nor when I kitesurf but I do when cycling.
I'm not sure there's a lot of logic behind this but am happy that I get to make the choice myself.
It must be said that when I am helmet less on my scooter, I am very aware of this and I think this encourages me to be more aware.

The thought of being forced to wear one in this country does not please me at all and is the sort of thing that I left the uk to avoid.
trollman - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Blizzard: helmets no, working bike lights or bright clothing after dusk yes, a helmet is only of use in an accident, so do all you can to avoid one, I do wear one though
ClimberEd - on 02 Aug 2013
In reply to Blizzard:

What I object to is an insurance company refusing to pay out because you weren't wearing a helmet when it wasn't law.

It's illegal to be a f*cking prick and drive into me, so why should I not have my bike paid for when I'm not wearing a helmet.....

*true) rant over......
Neil Williams - on 03 Aug 2013
In reply to ClimberEd:

I think it is fair that payouts are reduced if a head injury occurs without a helmet that can be proven would not occur with one. However, a mashed bike has nothing to do with a helmet. I would have pursued that, in court if necessary.

Neil
Strachan on 03 Aug 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:
> (In reply to Durbs)

>
> Both of those activities involve far higher speeds.

Is it not compulsory to wear a helmet on any motorbike? A lot of young people ride motorbikes limited to 30mph,and stil have to wear a helmet which I'm sure any road cyclist will tell you is significantly slower than their top speed...
s
Marek - on 03 Aug 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:
> (In reply to ClimberEd)
>
> I think it is fair that payouts are reduced if a head injury occurs without a helmet that can be proven would not occur with one.

And how would you prove in court that the injury would not have occurred with on? Proved as opposed to expressed an opinion.

blurty - on 03 Aug 2013
In reply to Marek:

The judge is the one who forma the opinion; if they think not wearing a helmet has contributed to the injuries, then they will chnage the compensation award see: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2011/sep/08/helmet-legal-status

there has been a more recent case as well, but I can't find it.
Jimbo W on 03 Aug 2013
In reply to a lakeland climber:

> Leave things as they are - i.e. recommended but not compulsory. How would cycle hire schemes like Boris Bikes work for instance? The article was reasonably balanced I thought. Helmets are only designed for low speed impacts, something like hitting the ground at 12mph I recall, so aren't going to be much use if you are in collision with a motor vehicle where the combined speeds are likely to be greater. I always find it amusing that the proponents say a helmet makes cycling safer - well they don't protect against broken arms, legs, wrists, collar bones or road rash, all of which are more likely than a head injury.

All of which are less likely to cause death unlike a head injury. A decent helmet will take a decent bit of energy out of any collision with the head, and so will reduce the energy transmitted to the skull and brain a little no matter what the speeds involved in the impact. Of course if you want to expand the remit of evidential analysis to include other factors then helmets might not be overall healthy because they discourage people from cycling and so we get more heart disease (but this is challengeable by education and other pro cycling measures), they might reduce hearing and overall awareness (perhaps, but addressable with better helmet design), might provide top heavyness or the potential for leverage imposed during a collision (again addressable with better helmet design). None of which takes away from the lab analysis that shows the energy imposed upon the brain is much less when a helmet is being worn. Personally, having hit a Rolls Royce silver shadow (me going about 25) him coming out onto a main road not looking, at night, without his lights on, I've gone head 1st right across the bonnet, and landed head first on the road, then flank against the curb, cracked the helmet in two, but with no concussion or anything, but pissed blood from the kidney injury. I was very glad that the helmet had done its job.. ..so I'll keep wearing mine.
Jimbo W on 03 Aug 2013
In reply to Rampikino:
> (In reply to Blizzard)
>
> "Personally I am against it." is hardly a basis for a debate.
>
> We lived in New Zealand for a while and helmets are mandatory. It got us into good habits for good reasons.

It will also drive better helmet design.
elsewhere on 03 Aug 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:
I don't agree.

If a cyclist gets a lower payout for not having a helmet that means the idea of lower damages payout should apply to pedestrians, motorcyclists, drivers of small cars or anybody else who chooses to travel in anything other than a lorry or a heavy 4x4 with bull bars.

I think legal liability should be tipped towards road users in the heavier/faster vehicle.
ebygomm - on 03 Aug 2013
blurty - on 03 Aug 2013
In reply to ebygomm:
> (In reply to blurty)
>
> Was this the one you were thinking of?
>
> http://www.scotsman.com/news/fury-at-sheriff-s-helmet-claim-in-cyclist-death-case-1-2920362

That's the one.

The trouble the anti-compulsion lobby have is that it's counter-intuitive; surely wearing a helmet is the right thing to do, in the minds of most people.

I have to declare an interest, I cycle a lot an nearly always wear a hat. I crash a lot whilst mountain biking because I am crap, on occasion I believe my hat has reduced the severity of cuts and grazes to my head.

Personally I don't agree with compulsion though. I think the pro-helmet lobby is mainly made up of well meaning medics, and anti-cyclists.
blurty - on 03 Aug 2013
In reply to ebygomm:
> (In reply to blurty)
>
> Was this the one you were thinking of?
>
> http://www.scotsman.com/news/fury-at-sheriff-s-helmet-claim-in-cyclist-death-case-1-2920362

Update: I see that the Appeal court has decided to review the case, starting on Tuesday next week to see if the sentence was unduly lenient.

http://www.ctc.org.uk/news/ctc-welcomes-decision-to-appeal-sentence-for-audrey-fyfes-killer-driver
a lakeland climber on 03 Aug 2013
In reply to Jimbo W:

I'm not saying that helmets are no good, only that they aren't the universal panacea that the vehemently pro-helmet lobby make them out to be. I reckon out of the 10,000Km that I've ridden in the last year I've probably only ridden about 5km without a helmet. I'm not anti helmet, I'm anti compulsion as evidence (Australia and elsewhere) shows that there is a reduction in take up of cycling when such laws are introduced and while short term hospital admissions *may* fall, in the long run the health benefits of people not taking up cycling (or giving up) will outweigh any such gains.

Interesting point about reduced hearing - there's a definite difference in volume between facing forward (loud) and looking to the side (not so loud). Been out this morning and it was very windy and a real struggle to hear cars coming up behind you.

ALC
DancingOnRock - on 03 Aug 2013
In reply to Blizzard: The problem is there is no data on how many miles are cycled by cyclists. So you can't determine what the actual risk is.

How many cyclists here have fallen off their bike and banged their head?

Are cyclist routinely dying of head injuries in the same numbers that car occupants were being killed or seriously injured from not wearing seatbelts, or motorcyclists of head injuries?

How will you prosecute cyclists not wearing helmets. It's hard enough to stop those that ride on the placements or jump red lights.
andy - on 03 Aug 2013
In reply to DancingOnRock: whether it's ski or bike helmets, the frequency of near death experiences seems to increase in direct proportion to the strength of feeling that people have that folks should wear them. I've never banged my head in 10 years of fairly serious cycling (all road pretty much) and 25 years of skiing - and until a recent incident had never personally known anyone to bang their head in either pastime. I usually wear a helmet cycling, never do skiing. However get on a helmet thread over on Snowheads and there are literally dozens of people who have smacked their head skiing and been saved from death or brain damage only by their helmet.

Similarly in cycling - broken helmets in helmet proponents etc seem far, far more common than broken skulls - but I guess there's some self-selection going on there! Although I do find James Cracknell's assertion odd, in that he would "definitely" be dead had he not been wearing a helmet when hit at an estimated 70mph by a lorry's wing mirror in an unwitnessed accident that resulted in serious brain damage - presumably because his brain smacked into his skull in the sort of impact that we're told can't be mitigated by a cycling helmet.

I'm very much against compulsion but probably wear one on 95% of rides nowadays - my current helmet's pretty comfy. I might take it off for a long climb if it's super hot, but that'd be rare.

Neil Williams - on 04 Aug 2013
In reply to Strachan:

Most cyclists don't get anywhere near 30mph, though.

Neil
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SI - profile removed on 04 Aug 2013
In reply to andy:

> Similarly in cycling - broken helmets in helmet proponents etc seem far, far more common than broken skulls - but I guess there's some self-selection going on there!

Having been in a fair few bike crashes my theory is that we're much more aware of where our heads are than we realise when we take a tumble, and so many helmets get smashed simply because they make your head twice as big and you don't naturally tuck the extended area in.
DancingOnRock - on 04 Aug 2013
In reply to shaun l:
> (In reply to andy)
>
> [...]
>
> Having been in a fair few bike crashes my theory is that we're much more aware of where our heads are than we realise when we take a tumble, and so many helmets get smashed simply because they make your head twice as big and you don't naturally tuck the extended area in.

I can identify with that. We sometimes have to wear site helmets at work. You whack your head on all sorts of things.

The other issue is that it's been 'proved'? that motorists take more care around cyclists and give them more room when the cyclist is not wearing helmets than when the cyclist is. I don't know if that takes into account that doddery old ladies and children wobble about a lot in the gutter and MAMILs cycle assertively out in the middle of the road.
nufkin - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> The other issue is that it's been 'proved'? that motorists take more care around cyclists and give them more room when the cyclist is not wearing helmets than when the cyclist is. I don't know if that takes into account that doddery old ladies and children wobble about a lot in the gutter and MAMILs cycle assertively out in the middle of the road.

I think that 'study' was a bit flawed, if not plain guff.



Mike Stretford - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to nufkin:
> (In reply to DancingOnRock)
>
> [...]
>
> I think that 'study' was a bit flawed, if not plain guff.

Agreed.
DancingOnRock - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to nufkin:
> (In reply to DancingOnRock)
>
> [...]
>
> I think that 'study' was a bit flawed, if not plain guff.

Feel free to think what you like. Here's the article.

http://www.bath.ac.uk/news/articles/releases/overtaking110906.html
Mike Stretford - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to Blizzard: I think it's a bad idea.

I think helmets are effective in some circumstance, but compulsory use will have a number of unintended consequences, most of which have been mentioned.

I'll add.... you'll get a load of people wearing badly fitting helmets (which you see anyway). The consequences of this will eventually show up in the accident stats and be misinterpreted by the anti-helmet zealots.
deepsoup - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to Papillon:
There are no anti-helmet zealots, the zealots are all on the other side of the debate.
Mike Stretford - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to DancingOnRock: That's a press release.
Mike Stretford - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to deepsoup: There are zealots on both sides.
deepsoup - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to Papillon:
Pro-helmet zealot: "I wear a helmet, and you must wear one too."
Anti-helmet zealot: "I don't want to wear a helmet, but of course you can if you like."

Not quite symmetrical is it?
DancingOnRock - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to Papillon:
> (In reply to DancingOnRock) That's a press release.

Yes. I said it was an article. I suspect the actual study is published somewhere.
LastBoyScout on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to deepsoup:
> Pro-helmet zealot: "I wear a helmet, and you must wear one too."
> Anti-helmet zealot: "I don't want to wear a helmet and you're not going to make me."

Fixed that for you...
deepsoup - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to LastBoyScout:
Seems reasonable enough. :o)
DancingOnRock - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to DancingOnRock:
> (In reply to Papillon)
> [...]
>
> Yes. I said it was an article. I suspect the actual study is published somewhere.

Actually this was linked to in the article. Maybe I should have read the telegraph article :(

http://www.drianwalker.com/overtaking/
DancingOnRock - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to LastBoyScout:
> (In reply to deepsoup)
> [...]
>
> Fixed that for you...

Surely if its to be balanced it should be 'and you mustn't wear one either'?
Mike Stretford - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to deepsoup:
> (In reply to Papillon)
>
> Not quite symmetrical is it?

Not quite that simple!

Go somewhere like cyclehelmets.org (a website that is frequently linked) and you'll get very subjective opinion presented as fact. Numerous peer reviewed articles criticised, often tenuously, while the Ian Walker study is lauded as absolute truth.

It's one of those subjects which seems to polarise opinion too much.
DancingOnRock - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to Papillon:
> (In reply to deepsoup)
> [...]
>
> Not quite that simple!
>
> Go somewhere like cyclehelmets.org (a website that is frequently linked) and you'll get very subjective opinion presented as fact. Numerous peer reviewed articles criticised, often tenuously, while the Ian Walker study is lauded as absolute truth.
>
> It's one of those subjects which seems to polarise opinion too much.

I think it's a bit cynical to believe that drivers don't take more care depending on the appearance of cyclists. We're human beings. Anything that dehumanises the appearance cyclists is going to be a bad thing.

I've noticed in particular that cars will pass me very quickly and closely (I don't wear a helmet) then slam on their brakes and pass my 13 year old daughter (wearing a helmet) with lots of space.

I don't wear a helmet out of choice and habit rather than from any critical statistical analysis I've carried out. .
Neil Williams - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to Papillon:

"It's one of those subjects which seems to polarise opinion too much."

This is rather the problem. Both sides would do better to stick to rational argument and debate, and respect each others' views.

I am someone who usually does not wear one, and being called an idiot and the likes is hardly likely to influence me to change my behaviour, and knowing my nature neither is emotional stuff like "I'm glad I was..." or "I wish I had been...". A rational argument, for example injury statistics and what happened in those cases coupled with information on testing and the products out there is much more likely to do so.

Neil
DancingOnRock - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to DancingOnRock:

That may appear to contradict my earlier post on helmets but I'm thinking of my adult male appearance vs her teenage girl appearance.

The same driver treats us differently, we're not both just 'a cyclist'.
DancingOnRock - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:
> (In reply to Papillon)
>
> "It's one of those subjects which seems to polarise opinion too much."
>
> This is rather the problem. Both sides would do better to stick to rational argument and debate, and respect each others' views.
>
> I am someone who usually does not wear one, and being called an idiot and the likes is hardly likely to influence me to change my behaviour, and knowing my nature neither is emotional stuff like "I'm glad I was..." or "I wish I had been...". A rational argument, for example injury statistics and what happened in those cases coupled with information on testing and the products out there is much more likely to do so.
>
> Neil

I agree, but it would depend how those statistics were presented and how they were relevant to me (a white, fit, confident, male, riding on quiet country lanes) vs an old lady cycling in central London, or my son riding up and down our quiet cul-de-sac on the pavement.

We all must wear helmets?
Neil Williams - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to DancingOnRock:

There are two main views - one (mine) is for individual risk assessment of the situation (I would, for instance, wear one mountain biking, though it's not an activity I often engage in), and the other is "just wear one always then you don't have to think about it".

I have no particular issue with those wishing to take the latter view any more than I do of anyone who always takes a waterproof jacket whenever they go out, say. Up to them. But I do object to being told, often very rudely, that is the only valid approach.

I similarly think those who rubbish the wearing of helmets entirely are doing the same thing.

FWIW, the irony of this is that any helmet law is only likely to hit the riding of bicycles on the public highway rather than e.g. on forest trails on private land.

Neil
LastBoyScout on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to DancingOnRock:
> (In reply to LastBoyScout)
> [...]
>
> Surely if its to be balanced it should be 'and you mustn't wear one either'?

What it really should be is:

> Pro-helmet zealot: "I wear a helmet, and you must wear one too and I want this enshrined in law."
> Anti-helmet-law zealot: "I don't want to wear a helmet and you're not going to make me, but I have no problem with you wearing one if you want to."
DancingOnRock - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to LastBoyScout: not sure what you are getting at there.

Zealots are people who are completely at odds. You're not a zealot if you're not arguing the opposite. In your example the second person isn't being a zealot. He's not imposing his will on the first person. What am I missing?

There's no problem with people being free to chose. The problem comes when people are told that it will improve their chance of survival if X happens. It's particularly crazy when the chance of X happening is non existent.
Neil Williams - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to DancingOnRock:

"The problem comes when people are told that it will improve their chance of survival if X happens. It's particularly crazy when the chance of X happening is non existent."

Or, as with cycle helmets, where the chance of X happening (where X is falling off and banging your head, either caused by another vehicle or not) is felt by one cyclist to be sufficiently low that it is acceptable, but that another cyclist thinks it's sufficiently high and that the other one is a nutter. There are those who don't find something on their head a problem, there are others (like me) where it will cause them to overheat very quickly.

Soloing is a relevant example. Some do it, some don't. Some lead, some only top rope. Etc. I must admit I don't get why so many climbers are so sanctimonious on the issue (of cycling or climbing helmets) when they will argue much more sensibly on the issues of other protection e.g. the use of ropes, types of belay device etc.

Neil
Neil Williams - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:

(I similarly sometimes wear a helmet when climbing depending on risk of stuff falling on my head/me falling off and banging my head, and when belaying it's the climber who gets to decide as I am there to protect them).

Neil
LastBoyScout on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to DancingOnRock:

I was trying to put into perspective what exactly are the positions of the 2 camps - perhaps I should have replaced the word zealot at that point, but it does seem to accurately reflect the intensity of feeling.
andy - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to LastBoyScout: I know where you're coming from - I tend to react in a more entrenched way when people say things like "you're selfish because you're not the one who'll have to wipe your bum and feed yourself when you bang your head" (this one mainly on skiing forums) as if EVERY serious head injury would be completely avoided by wearing a helmet.

I don't wear one skiing, I almost always wear one cycling, but I couldn't care less what other people choose to do. I do, however, tend to react to being called an idiot or suggestions that I haven't made an assessment of the risk.
DancingOnRock - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to andy: It just feels as if you're being told; "If you don't wear a helmet you'll get a devestating brain injury."

The vital missing part being; if you fall off, if you bang your head in a certain way, and might. Which are the entirely unquantifiable parts.

Maybe everyone should wear a helmet at all time in case they suddenly decide to get on a bike.
dissonance - on 05 Aug 2013
In reply to Strachan:
> A lot of young people ride motorbikes limited to 30mph,and stil have to wear a helmet which I'm sure any road cyclist will tell you is significantly slower than their top speed...

Apart from one is a top end, rare, speed and the other an average.
Well unless you are pro and even then.

Plus having a single rule makes it easier for cops to quickly look someone over rather than having to check the registration and get the type of bike back.

peter allen - on 07 Aug 2013
In reply to Blizzard: i wear a helmet but it's to protect me from motorists. i've been knocked off my road bike several times but have only ever fallen off once of my own making. motorists should reduce their speed both in town and beyond to allow them more time to consider the presence of other road users, of which cyclists are possibly the most vulnerable and certainly always to come off the worst
ads.ukclimbing.com
Neil Williams - on 07 Aug 2013
In reply to peter allen:

The only time I have come close to knocking a cyclist off (by turning right onto a road "onto" him) I was turning out of a junction at around 10mph at night. The cyclist successfully swerved slightly to avoid me. This is not acceptable on my part, I clearly didn't look for long enough, and my guess is that he was hidden behind the pillar at the point I looked. It perhaps didn't help that the road concerned has a parallel Redway so cyclists would not normally be expected on the road, though they are entitled to be there if they wish.

Nonetheless had it happened it would have been completely my fault, and I will look better next time. However, my point is that speed is not necessarily the problem, least of all in town centres where 30 tends to be optimistic - unobservant drivers are. People also need to ride/drive defensively, as mistakes can always be made, and I am thankful that he did as I wouldn't want a dead or seriously injured cyclist on my conscience.

(note re upthread: overtaking traffic on the left where a left turn is possible is *not* riding defensively)

Neil
Neil Williams - on 07 Aug 2013
In reply to peter allen:

That said, 50mph limits on country single carriageways, which are becoming increasingly common, probably do what you ask, as they promote a much smoother drive (on many such roads I could if I wanted just put the cruise control on 50mph and turn the wheel, though I don't actually do this) and as such keep attention spare to ensure that e.g. a cyclist around a blind bend is noticed.

Neil
garycrocker - on 07 Aug 2013
In reply to Blizzard: I wear a helmet as do all my family. Wouldn't take anyone out on a guided m t b ride without one. Otherwise, don't care what anyone else does or what the law says.

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