/ NEWS: Birkett Repeats Cookson's Route and Rescues Sheep

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UKC News - on 08 Aug 2013
Dave Birkett at Baysbrown Farm, Langdale, 4 kbDave Birkett has repeated Franco Cookson's new route Psykovsky's Sequins.

Dave told UKC that it is an excellent route and if he had made the first ascent he would have graded it...

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=68270

Mr Fuller on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News: I checked it wasn't April Fool's when I saw the date, but that's a really cool story. Good going Dave, and good going Franco by the sounds of it. Soloing E8 has got to feel about E10?!
Franco Cookson on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

Excellent piece of climbing. Getting that done in a couple of sessions is really impressive. Pinkies of steel. Danby's the new Stanage!
Mr. K - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News: Awesome, sounds like Franco wasn't too far off with his grading! Good effort lad. Bo)
Enty - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

Good stuff - so unless you have Dave's unique filed down gear it's at least E9 and more likely E10.
Well done Franco.

E
Frank the Husky - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Mr. K: I'm sure all those who posted vitriolic, uninformed rubbish when this news first came out will be along shortly to apologize. Perhaps Mr Farnell will be the first?
In reply to Frank the Husky:
> Perhaps Mr Farnell will be the first?

To be fair he wasn't vitriolic, he said he didn't think it was E10 and if Dave Birkett is right, well it isn't is it? Still sounds brick hard though at 7a. Routes don't get different grades for solo ascents, and Franco has been trying to find special gear to fit the holes, he just didn't have as big a rack as Birkett by the sounds of it.
Rick Graham on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Frank the Husky:
> (In reply to Mr. K) I'm sure all those who posted vitriolic, uninformed rubbish when this news first came out will be along shortly to apologize. Perhaps Mr Farnell will be the first?

Firstly, well done Dave, nice one. Actions not words.

Second, I thought the concensus was that Andy F laboured his case but kept his cool.
The New NickB - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to Frank the Husky)
> [...]
>
> Routes don't get different grades for solo ascents, and Franco has been trying to find special gear to fit the holes, he just didn't have as big a rack as Birkett by the sounds of it.

I am not sure that is correct in this instance and I am not sure that is what Dave Birkett is implying. With the gear it seems a much safer route, gear Dave fell on twice. Dave found a way to make the route safer, soloing an established route is one thing, soloing a new route because you cannot find a way of protecting it is another.
martinph78 on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News: Nice one DB, glad this can be put to rest now...
In reply to The New NickB: Well fair enough, perhaps from now on it will be E8 with the understanding that you need piece X to protect it?

A bit like the infamous nails on the Braille Trail or whatever it is Master's Edge takes.
Enty - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to The New NickB:

I agree. I think it should be graded for normal, readily available gear.

E
Tony Simpson - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to The New NickB: now that its had a repeat from a very rounded climber we can agree that the grade was not E10 and is more likely to be E8.

So what can we take from this.

Franco has done a great bit of climbing in a dangerous position and choose to solo it because (in my opinion) he did not have the experience or may be the foresight to modify a piece of gear to go in the monos. Who knows he may not even have wanted to.

But the fact still remains the route is E8 and he soloed it. End of. As someone stated earlier you do not give a different grade just because you soloed it. Take Wellington Crack at Ilkley for instance, this is in fact a very well protected E4 5c but is very bold if soloed. But it does not get E6 just because you choose to solo it.

I think you have to give both climbers a big pat on the back, Dave for traveling over to repeat the route and Franco for taking up the challenge in the first place.

Lets hope Franco takes lessons from all this and it makes his judgement on grading routes that little bit more easier.

I think that should be the end of it all.

Well done both guys, Dave your a legend still cranking way hard, how old are you now buddy ( you don't have to answer that question by the way :).....)
tombeasley - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson: Great work Dave & Franco! It's great that our sport has real characters and pushing your grades, being passionate & having fun in your local area should be admired. E8 7a solo confirms Franco’s realistic appraisal of the grade considering he didn’t feel he could protect it. I’ve enjoyed watching this story unfold and I am sure there will be more action on the moors. Looking forward to hearing about Dave’s repeat of Franco’s other route.
Frank the Husky - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Rick Graham: Mr Farnell's posts may not have been vitriolic, but they were certainly negative, critical and based on some sort of personal issue with Franco. The fact that he hadn't bothered to climb/try the route made his "laboured" contributions rather self serving.

The reality is that Franco has been proved correct. DB may have called it E8, but he had a bomber bit of gear. For the FA with no gear E10 might not be too far off. The 7a was right so the lad has proved himself (like he needed to) and perhaps it isn't actually Franco who needs to take lessons from all this.
Robert Durran - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Tony Simpson:
> But the fact still remains the route is E8 and he soloed it. End of. As someone stated earlier you do not give a different grade just because you soloed it.

I think you are missing the point. If, as seems the case, Franco soloed it because he honestly didn't think it could be protected, then his grade of E10 might well have been an honest and spot on an assessment.

> Take Wellington Crack at Ilkley for instance, this is in fact a very well protected E4 5c but is very bold if soloed. But it does not get E6 just because you choose to solo it.

Yes, missing the point!

The only debate is whether the settled grade should take account of the highly specialised piece of gear. Perhaps a case for a note in the guidebook giving noth grades.

Skyfall - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

Fascinating and a brilliant thing for Dave to do. And hats off to Franco.

It sounds as though Franco's assessment was about correct (give or take a grade) if he was correct in thinking it unprotectable. But of course we now know it is protectable, with specialised gear.

I'm interested in hearing how you grade it with specialised gear because I'd have thought you couldn't do a 100% pure onsight of it with prior knowledge of the gear. Maybe the onsight grade really is E9/10 7a, but does a headpoint (or gear beta) grade then become E8 7a? Or is specialised gear knowledge assumed for the onsight grade?
Darren Jackson - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

Kudos to the pair of 'em.
Simon Caldwell - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Frank the Husky:
Interesting also to read Dave's comments about The Hypocrisy of Moose - " would be E8 anywhere". Didn't Franco grade it H7?

Perhaps Franco may see his wish come true, for the Moors to emerge from their status as a backwater?
Pown - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News: Well done Franco, looks like a pretty good assessment
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Ramblin dave - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:
Awesome!

And I'm shocked that noone's commented on the sheep rescue! Great stuff.
The Flying Giraffe - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

A lovely bit of news. Well done Franco, well done Dave.
Enty - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Robert Durran:

I agree.

Wasn't there a hard route at Kilnsey which relied on a filed down nut? I don't think you can grade routes for specialised bits of gear.

E
Michael Gordon - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

Brilliant news! As much as anything else it's great to hear Dave's enthusiasm for these routes of Franco's.

Regarding the grades, if bomber gear is possible then one really has to go with that. So no doubt the route will be E8, but with the proviso that very specific gear is required. To be fair there are plenty other routes in the UK where this is the case.

But without this knowledge, it seems as though Franco was pretty much spot on with his grade. The grade of his 'Moose route' is as good as confirmed also (again excellent news) and it's not hard to see why Franco thought them two grades apart.

This is also proof if any were required that one does NOT need a 'track record' of hard repeats in order to have a good stab at grading things.
Enty - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Michael Gordon:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
>
> Regarding the grades, if bomber gear is possible then one really has to go with that. So no doubt the route will be E8, but with the proviso that very specific gear is required. To be fair there are plenty other routes in the UK where this is the case.
>
>

I think there's a difference between off the shelf specialist gear and stuff that is home made or filed down to fit that one particular placement.

E
Darren Jackson - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:
>
> And I'm shocked that noone's commented on the sheep rescue! Great stuff.

Nobody's flocking to congratulate him but, in fairness, that sort of thing is pretty much baa for the course where Birkett's concerned?
jon on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Enty:

Thinking back to Franco's earlier musings about this route when he was looking for gear that might fit the hole/s, wasn't one of the issues that it would have to be placed AFTER using the hole as a hold. So in other words, having to reach down to place it, which might be more difficult, and also means that you've got to commit to at least one of the mono moves without gear anyway.
Enty - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to jon:
> (In reply to Enty)
>
> Thinking back to Franco's earlier musings about this route when he was looking for gear that might fit the hole/s, wasn't one of the issues that it would have to be placed AFTER using the hole as a hold. So in other words, having to reach down to place it, which might be more difficult, and also means that you've got to commit to at least one of the mono moves without gear anyway.

I thought that too. Be interesting to know how it all works.

E
john arran - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Enty:

> I don't think you can grade routes for specialised bits of gear.

That's a strong argument in favour of H grades, as it's at the same time clear what the leading difficulty is but also clear that onsight it could be a very different proposition.

I know not everyone is convinced, and I can understand why, but for routes like this with very specialist gear or prior knowledge, trying to assign an onsight grade can be nigh on impossible.

Simon Ash - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Tony Simpson: +1; as I said in the other thread, it's a shame Franco chose to distract attention from his feat by hyping the grade up for reasons passing understanding..
stu7jokes - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

What a heartwarming ending to a highly entertaining little episode. Assuming that *is* the end.
Michael Gordon - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Enty:

Fair point but now that folk know it is possible to protect the route they are unlikely to do it Franco's way. They will either have a look at fashioning something themselves or contact Dave Birkett!

Once it's known to be possible to protect something it usually seems silly not to. The grade should reflect how most climbers are likely to climb the route (obviously this is by no means certain as of yet).

I think 'E8 7a but specific gear is required for the grade' sounds better than 'E10 7a if soloed but bomber gear is available to those who can fashion it'.
Simon Caldwell - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Simon Ash:
> it's a shame Franco chose to distract attention from his feat by hyping the grade up for reasons passing understanding

Franco thought it was an unprotected 7a with a poor landing, so graded it E10 7a (or more precisely, H10 7a). Dave found some bomber gear and thought it E8 7a. Seems perfectly understandable to me.
Michael Gordon - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Simon Ash:

???!!!

Actually I don't think that comment deserves a reply.
Robert Durran - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Simon Ash:
> (In reply to Tony Simpson) +1; as I said in the other thread, it's a shame Franco chose to distract attention from his feat by hyping the grade up for reasons passing understanding..

Eh? It sounds like he was spot on for very obvious reasons!

andyathome - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:
I hope all of those who pledged money on t'other thread to subsidise a 'wad' to visit and check the grade have got their cheques in the post to Dave B?

Or were they just joshing.....
dr_botnik - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News: Good effort Franco (and Dave) glad to see its been repeated.
Hugh Cottam - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm not sure how Franco could actually be any more vindicated with his grading. Those people who are saying otherwise are too simple to be worth discussing things with. Maybe they need to read more slowly.
Mutl3y - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to andyathome: I'll give Dave that fiver next time I see him. :)

What a lovely outcome though - feels like everyone is justified....Franco for giving it the grade and also the sceptics for doubting it was an accurate assessment. This is a win win for everyone, brilliant news.
r0x0r.wolfo - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News: Nice one dave, most people deep down though franco overgraded due to a little inexperience. This being said, I am surprised it was on the gear side and not the climbing! No one really predicted this. A step in the harder climbing direction for franco, great bag by dave and goos for the area. Everyone wins, except for a few people and their fivers!
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bouldery bits - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

COME 0UT HERE FARNELL! COME OUT AND FACE US!

Hehehe...
Dave 88 - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

The silence from the previous doubters is deafening!

Well there it is, Franco's years of hard work to put the Moors on the map have finally paid off, and he's produced some quality, incredibly hard routes in the process. The fact he's done it while ruffling the feathers of some of the stuffy members on here just makes the achievement all the better! Top marks.
estivoautumnal - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to bouldery bits:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> COME 0UT HERE FARNELL! COME OUT AND FACE US!
>
> Hehehe...

Why? He said the route wasn't E10. It's not. He's correct. It's E8 End of story.
Timmd on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to estivoautumnal:
> (In reply to bouldery bits)
> [...]
>
> Why? He said the route wasn't E10. It's not. He's correct. It's E8 End of story.

It's E8 with a filed down sliding wedge runner adapted especially for mono holes.

Without that, it could be E9/E10..? In a polite way, this seems pretty straight forward to me, that the grade can be quite different with the addition of a specific (and not common) kind of runner, which may make then both right given what's been available to them. It's straight forward that it's not straight forward.
The New NickB - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to estivoautumnal:
> (In reply to bouldery bits)
> [...]
>
> Why? He said the route wasn't E10. It's not. He's correct. It's E8 End of story.

Have you read what Birkett said?
Michael Gordon - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to estivoautumnal:
> (In reply to bouldery bits)
> [...]
>
> Why? He said the route wasn't E10. It's not. He's correct. It's E8 End of story.

He was correct by luck more than anything else. Certainly not well reasoned argument/hypothesis.
estivoautumnal - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to The New NickB:

What? This bit?

I've probably got a bit more experience than Franco in getting runners like that."

Em, yes.
estivoautumnal - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Michael Gordon:
> (In reply to estivoautumnal)
> [...]
>
> He was correct by luck more than anything else. Certainly not well reasoned argument/hypothesis.

Doesn't matter.

I didn't question the original grade at the time (I didn't even comment) and believed that he graded it correctly. I now know different.
Steve Crowe - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to bouldery bits:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> COME 0UT HERE FARNELL! COME OUT AND FACE US!
>

I think Andy has left the country....

Michael Gordon - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Timmd:
> (In reply to estivoautumnal)
> [...]
>
> this seems pretty straight forward to me, that the grade can be quite different with the addition of a specific (and not common) kind of runner, which may make then both right given what's been available to them. It's straight forward that it's not straight forward.

yes and I also think one can understand that the difference between 'bomber gear for high crux' vs 'no gear for high crux' could easily be two grades.

Like HVS 5b vs E2 5b
Robert Durran - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to estivoautumnal:
> (In reply to bouldery bits)
> Why? He said [Farnell] the route wasn't E10. It's not. He's correct. It's E8 End of story.

Unless he somehow knew about the bomber piece of specialised gear, which would be surprising, he was emphatically wrong on the evidence available to him. I'm glad he was wrong - his smug sniping did him no favours and I'm glad Franco's (and I've always quite liked his persona on here) climbing has done the talking and that he's come out of this rather well.

Mutl3y - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to estivoautumnal: I don't think Andy did say it wasn't e10 - at least not in his first few posts. He just said that Francos assessment of the grade wasn't convincing enough for him. Even if Birkett's assessment had been "benchmark e10" it still wouldn't have put Andy in the wrong.

Franco's grade was a gauntlet. It turned out, in the circumstances to have been pretty accurate for what he did and a tempting bit of bait - would Birkett have gone to do it if It had been e6?.

I think similar misgrading happened with The Promise not so long ago - Pearson's original e10 grade was based on his assessment of marginal gear which subsequent suitors thought much more reliable.
Darren Jackson - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to estivoautumnal:

Good grief. People really ought to cut Franco some slack; so, it's E8 rather than E10 and it's taken Birkett to confirm it as E8. Surely the point is that it's a commendable effort regardless? Birkett certainly seems to think so, anyhow.
Joe Kerr - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:
Got a response Andy or are you too embarrassed? Maybe you will engage brain before spouting the usual bullshit next time. It's proven that even though he was a bit out in the grading he wasn't too far off the mark as you were implying. Actions again speak louder than words! Next time you're at the crag don't spout your usual bull cos no one is listening
Michael Gordon - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to estivoautumnal:

OK whatever.

I'm hoping for a more intelligent reply from Andy Farnell (no sarcasm intended)
estivoautumnal - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm not defending anybody who said it was not E10. But I fail to see how E8 = E10. That's 2 whole grades. A massive difference.

Simon Ash - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Darren Jackson:
I don't think people don't think it was a commendable effort - I certainly do and have said so on divers occasions.

The problem was with the grade - and the rationale behind it giving that grade. To give something a grade like that just to p*** people off or for some other asinine reason is stupid - at least that is my take on it and that was my point.

Personally, I wouldn't know an E8 or E10 if it stood next to me in the bar so...
estivoautumnal - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Darren Jackson:
> (In reply to estivoautumnal)
>
> Good grief. People really ought to cut Franco some slack; so, it's E8 rather than E10 and it's taken Birkett to confirm it as E8. Surely the point is that it's a commendable effort regardless? Birkett certainly seems to think so, anyhow.

Of course you are right.
estivoautumnal - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Michael Gordon:
> (In reply to estivoautumnal)
>
> OK whatever.
>
> I'm hoping for a more intelligent reply from Andy Farnell (no sarcasm intended)

Maybe he will just say E8 isn't E10.
Michael Gordon - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Mutl3y:

Regarding The Promise, Pearson's grade was also based on not using bouldering mats which obviously make quite a difference on such a short route. It was arguably more an ethical stance than misgrading.
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The New NickB - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to estivoautumnal:
> (In reply to The New NickB)
>
> What? This bit?
>
> I've probably got a bit more experience than Franco in getting runners like that."
>
> Em, yes.

Read some more and quote in context.
Michael Gordon - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to estivoautumnal:

As I say, I'm hoping for a more intelligent response from him than that.
Fraser on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Joe Kerr:

> Got a response Andy or are you too embarrassed? Maybe you will engage brain before spouting the usual bullshit next time.

Erm, point of order: the next guy on the route after Franco (and with a lot more experience) graded it E8, not the E10 it was originally given. Andy Farnell was correct - it wasn't E10. That was the whole point he was trying to get across in stating the lack of experience restricting Franco's ability to give an accurate grade. There's absolutely no reason why he should be embarrassed.

Fair play to both Dave and Franco though. DB did it in two days and without mats - Franco took a tad longer and still decided to go with E10. To be honest, I think most folk knew it wasn't really going to be E10 anyway.
estivoautumnal - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Michael Gordon:
> (In reply to estivoautumnal)
>
> As I say, I'm hoping for a more intelligent response from him than that.

Well you need to start with one. Then I can have something to reply to.
estivoautumnal - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Fraser.

Yes, but they will still argue otherwise.
The New NickB - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Fraser:

E8 with a good gear that wasn't available to Franco, Dave agreed on the tech grade and that in the style that Franco climbed it, it was E9 or E10.
Mutl3y - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Michael Gordon: oh yeah, the mats. Fair point.
andyathome - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to bouldery bits:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> COME 0UT HERE FARNELL! COME OUT AND FACE US!
>
> Hehehe...

And the witch hunt phase two starts......

Does it matter? Does it really, really matter.

Someone said it was E10 without gear. Someone doubted that. Someone else says its E8 with gear. Someone says that E8 without gear is E10. Ad nauseum.....

Franco has put up a dead hard route and someone has found a way of protecting said route.

I know it's less fun but does the slagging really need to continue now?
Franco Cookson on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to john arran:
> (In reply to Enty)
>
> [...]
>
> That's a strong argument in favour of H grades, as it's at the same time clear what the leading difficulty is but also clear that onsight it could be a very different proposition.
>
> I know not everyone is convinced, and I can understand why, but for routes like this with very specialist gear or prior knowledge, trying to assign an onsight grade can be nigh on impossible.

It's H8. It can now be climbed in relative safety with a particular bit of kit. Dave's vision here has actually made the route more likely to see repeats, so I'm very happy about that. The beast has change - it doesn't want to chew your legs off anymore, but it's still a wild beast. This runner will also help with a new route I put up an hour ago, making it totally safe.

There's a good argument that it would be E10 or harder to onsight. I'm not quite sure what side of that fence I stand on, I don't really care. It was beautiful up there tonight.



Dave 88 - on 08 Aug 2013
It wasn't just the grade that was being questioned, people were saying Franco hasn't got a clue what he's on about cos he hasn't climbed enough outside of his own area. Well now that's been firmly proved wrong by DB. I think he's done a few hard routes?
Joe Kerr - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Fraser:
My point is if you had read my post on this and the other thread was that Andy was hypothesising rather than getting off his arse and proving his point! In the end Franco wasn't too far off the mark even though the route was proven to be over graded slightly by someone who is well qualified to judge.
Andy would have been better to go and try the route and then pass judgement rather than speculate. E8 7a is still bloody hard by anyone's standards.
I
Wee Davie - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Fraser:

Tech 7a with no gear? Sounds convincingly desperate to me!
It seems that many of these top grades are highly debated and often change. Maybe the next ascent will find it more E9 than E8. Who knows?

Surely people weren't seriously believing Franco was doing more than his usual wind up routine in saying E10?
Chapeau to him.
Ian Patterson on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Joe Kerr:
> (In reply to UKC News)
> Got a response Andy or are you too embarrassed? Maybe you will engage brain before spouting the usual bullshit next time. It's proven that even though he was a bit out in the grading he wasn't too far off the mark as you were implying. Actions again speak louder than words! Next time you're at the crag don't spout your usual bull cos no one is listening

As Steve said above Andy has left the country, though to go on holiday to turkey with his family rather than escape the wrath of the internet! On his return he'll be back to agree that franco has been pretty much vindicated.

Overall a brilliant story with some great climbing from Franco and Dave.

Joe Kerr - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Ian Patterson:
Should have kept his views to himself in the first place!
Fraser on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Joe Kerr:

> My point is if you had read my post on this and the other thread was that Andy was hypothesising rather than getting off his arse and proving his point!

He was making a point, which has since (for the time being at least) been proved to be correct. The route has been graded, by someone with a lot more experience at that level, as E8.

> In the end Franco wasn't too far off the mark even though the route was proven to be over graded slightly by someone who is well qualified to judge.

And that is exactly the point Andy was making.

> Andy would have been better to go and try the route and then pass judgement rather than speculate.

Perhaps so, but he's perfectly entitled to express his opinion. This is climbing forum intended for climbing-related discussion after all.


> E8 7a is still bloody hard by anyone's standards.

Agreed, and I'd not take anything away from Franco, as I said in my comment on the other thread.


In reply to Wee Davie:

Just because Franco didn't see the possibility of a specialist placement (and what placement isn't 'specialist'?), that doesn't bump up the real grade of the route.


In reply to Franco & John Arran:

I think your suggestions for H-grades are well made for routes at this level.
lex - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

Move along, everybody, move along.

This isn't the controversy you're looking for...

Lex
Adam Lincoln - on 08 Aug 2013
So, Franco was spot on then with his grade. In the style he did it in, and Dave confirming the tech grade, E10 seems about right. Not everyone has access to this obscure bit of kit.

James Pearson did the same thing on the promise. Didn't trust the slider so graded it a higher E grade. Its not rocket science. Grades evolve, people find obscure gear.

More importantly in sounds like Franco's route is of high quality, and that is the main thing, after all. Yes?
Mutl3y - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Adam Lincoln: yes!
johncoxmysteriously - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Great story. Franco must be made up his route's getting attention from someone of DB's stature, and in my opinion he's been pretty much vindicated with his grade as well.

jcm
Joe Kerr - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Fraser:
> (In reply to Joe Kerr)
>
> [...]
>
> He was making a point, which has since (for the time being at least) been proved to be correct. The route has been graded, by someone with a lot more experience at that level, as E8.
>
> [...]
>
> And that is exactly the point Andy was making.
No it's not!!
>
> [...]
>
> Perhaps so, but he's perfectly entitled to express his opinion. This is climbing forum intended for climbing-related discussion after all.
>
>
> [...]
>
> Agreed, and I'd not take anything away from Franco, as I said in my comment on the other thread.
>
>
> In reply to Wee Davie:
>
> Just because Franco didn't see the possibility of a specialist placement (and what placement isn't 'specialist'?), that doesn't bump up the real grade of the route.
>
>
> In reply to Franco & John Arran:
>
> I think your suggestions for H-grades are well made for routes at this level.

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Micky J - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News: Hats off to Cookson for soloing a sedimentary E8 7A on the hottest most humid day of the year REALLY .
Enty - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
> So, Franco was spot on then with his grade. In the style he did it in, and Dave confirming the tech grade, E10 seems about right. Not everyone has access to this obscure bit of kit.
>
> James Pearson did the same thing on the promise. Didn't trust the slider so graded it a higher E grade. Its not rocket science. Grades evolve, people find obscure gear.
>
> More importantly in sounds like Franco's route is of high quality, and that is the main thing, after all. Yes?

This ^^^

E
Hay - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson:
> (In reply to john arran)
> [...]
>
> I don't really care. It was beautiful up there tonight.

This really is a story worthy of the telling.
The last ten words of you post sort of make it for me.
Great work.

Bruce
SteveOc - on 08 Aug 2013
The threads on this have been genius.

Firstly, well done Franco & Dave, wads. Shame Franco used to spout so much shit on t'web or no one would say anything, few more of these routes and no one (maybe!!) will remember any of that though.

For people lining up to slag Andy F, he was right, the grade was wrong. And I agree with most of his points, shame y'all can't get down of your high horse.

And for those who think a route gets a harder grade for soloing it when there is gear you need to lay off the crack pipes. I'll look forward to the split solo/roped grades system you guys obviously want. Perhaps Rockfax could use them in the North Wales guide??
footwork - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News: Aren't Birkett Routes sandbags anyway? Probably E9 then. Well done Franko
Joe Kerr - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to SteveOc:
I don't think many people were thinking the grade would hold but he wasn't too far out. It's the manner in which it was done.....
Activist sticking his neck out V armchair pundit!! I know who I would give more credence to!
Skyfall - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to john arran:

> That's a strong argument in favour of H grades, as it's at the same time clear what the leading difficulty is but also clear that onsight it could be a very different proposition.

John that was exactly my point but better put. For a totally pure onsight (no beta re gear), it probably is E9/10 by the sounds of it. But working the route and knowledge of gear (in particular) drops the grade to E8. So H8 for the beta ascent, E10 for the pure onsight (which will probably never get done).
Skyfall - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson:

Franco, missed your post for some reason (mobiles) but well done and I completely agree re the H/E grade (as said twice above). You are in my very humble opinion largely vindicated. I'm sure that now Dave B's done it and confirmed quality, technicality etc you don't much care anyway.
SteveOc - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Joe Kerr:

Good point Joe, but sadly Franco was guilty of exactly the same behavior himself a few years ago wasn't he?

He couldn't wait to put the boot in over the whole James P Walk Of Life/The Promise fiasco. He said some pretty outrageous comments from the comfort of his own armchair about climbers and routes he knew nothing about. That is why so many people can't wait to see him fail.

Will you be starting a new thread flaming him for that?

And you also call Andy F an armchair pundit? I'll assume you know him well, climbed with him etc? Because if you don't your guilty of exactly the same behaviour towards him your saying he is guilty of. Your an armchair pundit, we all are you f*****g genius.
Micky J - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News: another question is how did Birkett get his huge bannana finger in the pinky hole ? did he file that down aswell ?
Baron Weasel - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Skyfall: What would of happened to the future onsight grade if D.B. had left the tip of his little pinkie in the mono when he fell off?
Ramblin dave - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to SteveOc:

> For people lining up to slag Andy F, he was right, the grade was wrong. And I agree with most of his points, shame y'all can't get down of your high horse.

Tbh I'd have given you better odds on Franco overgrading a new hard route than, say, Caff or Dave Mac or someone else who's repeated a big stack of other routes at that sort of grade. But the reason for that, and I suspect the reason that a few people were vocally doubtful about the grade was the possibility that without having done a lot of hard repeats, Franco hadn't got much basis to compare the technical difficulty of this climb with other hard routes, not that there was bound to be some museum-piece bit of gear which, if filed down just right, would make the route safe as houses. And as it turns out he was spot on about the technical difficulty but missed a rather non-obvious bit of protection, so on that front, Franco one, doubters nil, top result.
Robert Durran - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to SteveOc:
> For people lining up to slag Andy F, he was right, the grade was wrong. And I agree with most of his points, shame y'all can't get down of your high horse.

I am genuinely amazed that you and others simply don't get it. Franco graded the route on the basis that it was unprotectable and has been thoroughly vindicated (with Andy F. basing his sniping on the same assumption being proved wrong and being made to look correspondingly silly). Dave B. then found some protection which makes the route E8, thus CONFIRMING that Franco was pretty much spot on, NOT proving him wrong. It's really not that complicated!
IainRUK - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Robert Durran: Yes.. also grades come from a consensus.. some high.. some low.. clearly a bloody hard route.. so how this has resulted in any Franco knocking is beyond me.. one minute its people saying the yoof aren't pushing it.. next its that they are exaggerating..
Joe Kerr - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to SteveOc:
> (In reply to Joe Kerr)
>
> Good point Joe, but sadly Franco was guilty of exactly the same behavior himself a few years ago wasn't he?
>
> He couldn't wait to put the boot in over the whole James P Walk Of Life/The Promise fiasco. He said some pretty outrageous comments from the comfort of his own armchair about climbers and routes he knew nothing about. That is why so many people can't wait to see him fail.
>
> Will you be starting a new thread flaming him for that?
No!
>
> And you also call Andy F an armchair pundit? I'll assume you know him well, climbed with him etc? Because if you don't your guilty of exactly the same behaviour towards him your saying he is guilty of. Your an armchair pundit, we all are you f*****g genius.
Yes I do and I'm tired of his rankings! He is exactly that. Nothing's changed over the 25 years I've known him. As for your last sentence you're wrong. I'm not an armchair pundit at all but have merely questioned Andy's methodology

Joe Kerr - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Robert Durran: good point
Tyler - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

Everyone assuming this is automatically E10 without the specialist bit of gear seemed to have missed the bit where it says:

Dave didn't use bouldering mats beneath the route as he was happy with his gear in the mono hole

That suggests they may be of some use so maybe no gear doesn't equall death/E10?
JLS on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

This route has surely added another great wee story into the climbing annals.

Three cheers for Franco and Birkett.
andy farnell - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News: Franco, well done. Dave, brilliant. I stand by my initial assessment.

Andy F
The New NickB - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to SteveOc:

> And for those who think a route gets a harder grade for soloing it when there is gear you need to lay off the crack pipes. I'll look forward to the split solo/roped grades system you guys obviously want. Perhaps Rockfax could use them in the North Wales guide??

There wasn't gear, the fact that thanks to DB there is now doesn't change the fact that there wasn't when Franco did the first ascent. It's not that difficult to understand.
ads.ukclimbing.com
biped - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Joe Kerr:
> (In reply to Robert Durran) good point

It is a good point and one that has been repeatedly made up and down the thread by NickB, Enty, Adam Lincoln, JCM and others, yet there still seems to be many who don't get it.

The New NickB - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Tyler:

I'll go off DB's assessment, which I think was E9/10 in the style Franco climbed it.
wheelsucker - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

I tried hard not to post as I'm guessing the average age of Cranko Fooksuns fanclub is about 14 but FFS this is getting beyond a joke.

A famehungry wee lad puts up an undoubtedly hard route and for good reason a UKC armchair punter challenges the grade.

His fan club attack with a level of hysteria only matched in the front row of a Justin Bieber concert only to be met with a dignified and reasoned response from the OP throughout.

The route is climbed again and downgraded to a less newsworthy E8 and yes I know he soloed it and it probably felt E10 but the crux he admitted was only a few metres off the deck.

It's UKC so I really shouldn't be too surprised at the lack of reasoned debate but help ma boab!
Micky J - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News: A few years ago me and a mate did a new route at Brimham . Having no gear and a crux move 30 ft above a horrible landing I was never going to lead it . My mate promptly soloed it and we graded it E8 despite some wood bees who couldnt top rope it saying it was easier . Along came the wiley Cumbrian found a small wire ? made the 2nd ascent and thought E7 . Fair play but the fact remains that what the first ascentionist did was E8 . What came first the chicken .......? A year or two later we did another new one with a hard and scary crux at the top . Along came others and unearthed a more direct and easier finish . Lots of repeats and a downgrade ...good effort but not the route we did . The first ascent in a style is the first ascent and THE style and the grade of that first ascent is the GRADE unless done in the same style and thought to be easier . Im going for a lie down .
IainWhitehouse - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to SteveOc)
> [...]
>
> I am genuinely amazed that you and others simply don't get it. ..It's really not that complicated!

I think the problem is that many people, myself included, are equally amazed that you don't see the other view.

Franco missed a gear placement and therefore (based on DB's assessment) miss-judged the grade. If he had missed a hold and so miss-judged the technical grade would you argue that his grade for his (duff) sequence should hold? cf Jason Myers and Brad Pitt - does anybody think it 8B or whatever Jason gave it. It really doesn't matter whether he missed a hold and it got easier or he missed gear and it got safer - the net result is the grade needs adjusting.

This is no criticism of Franco, I believe he gave it a best guess with some sound reasoning to back it up, but that doesn't make his assessment right.

I think we ought to be able to agree that Franco has talent and has made a great first ascent. There is no need for a witch hunt just because someone questioned him. If nobody is ever allowed to question, we will all be believing every Si O'Connor or Cesare Maestri that comes along.



Franco, well done.
Tyler - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to The New NickB:

> I'll go off DB's assessment, which I think was E9/10 in the style Franco climbed it.

I didn't realise he said that, I stand corrected. where does he say that BTW?
Joe Kerr - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to wheelsucker: probably one of the poorer postings on this debate!
Joe Kerr - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to andy farnell: bit late for that!
Robert Durran - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to wheelsucker:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> I tried hard not to post as I'm guessing the average age of Cranko Fooksuns fanclub is about 14 but FFS this is getting beyond a joke.


Indeed. I'm 49 and a half, so I guess the rest of the fanclub must average about 8. So they're doing pretty well for their age to grasp the situation so much better than you.
Franco Cookson on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Tyler: If nothing else has come out of this, at least now Dave Birkett believes in the grade of E10.
Tyler - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson:

Indeed, he just needed someone to show him the way :-)
Baron Weasel - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Tyler:
> (In reply to The New NickB)
>
> [...]
>
> I didn't realise he said that, I stand corrected. where does he say that BTW?

B.t.L's, as blatant as hell!?!...
The New NickB - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Tyler:

Actually I think I may have miss remembered, confusing what Dave said in the article, with what others are inferring he meant. Anyway I stand by my other points.
Dave 88 - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

Is there a video of either of them on it yet?
Michael Gordon - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to IainWhitehouse:

Most of us agree that the net result is the grade needs adjusting. That doesn't mean Franco was wrong to grade is as he did - he didn't misjudge the grade, he actually judged it rather well. That is all we are saying really.
The New NickB - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to Baron Weasel:

What does B.t.L mean?
Robert Durran - on 08 Aug 2013
In reply to IainWhitehouse:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> I think the problem is that many people, myself included, are equally amazed that you don't see the other view.
>
> Franco missed a gear placement and therefore (based on DB's assessment) miss-judged the grade. If he had missed a hold and so miss-judged the technical grade would you argue that his grade for his (duff) sequence should hold?

No, and nor do I think the grade for the route done without the runner should hold, but that is beside the (obvious) point you are missing: ANDY F. DID NOT KNOw HE HAD MISSED A RUNNER.
Jimbo W on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

Egos, egos everywhere. Who give a flying f*ck through a rolling doughnut!!!!
Calder - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

Hats off to DB for getting over there to try and shut you lot up. Shame it's not quite worked out like that.

;)

Good effort Dave and Franco, well done!
john mc c - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Michael Gordon: Airmchair climbng at the very highest standard. You say most of us must agree the grade needs adjustment? I think only the second ascensionist is a position to give that assesment!
Franco said E10, Dave said E8. Out by 20%? Nice one, lets see all the rest of the hero's on here go out and recalibrate the error by getting on it and continuing the downgrade.
I'm expecting HVS 5a by tomorrow.......

ads.ukclimbing.com
john mc c - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson: PS. Top job, and stoked for you that serious interest was paid in your creation.
Robert Durran - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to john mc c:
> Franco said E10, Dave said E8. Out by 20%?

That's like saying a day at 20 degrees C is twice as hot as a day at 10 degrees C - completely meanigless since the choice of zero is arbitrary (E0 [ie HVS?] or the freezing point of water)
john mc c - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Robert Durran: Simply calling out the doubters of someone who is trying hard in backwater.
I'm a punter, why call someone down when they are duff on a couple of grades on a FA at this standard? Its, I believe clear that he was throwing the gauntlet, claimed E10, got E8 from a good source, not a bad result I'm sure?
All in all sick of general negativity. People climb because its fun and a challenge?
Franco can keep the E10 as far I'm concerned until the grade consolidates further.
I doubt very much I'll be helping in that process though!
iceox - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson: eh, E8 I thought
Michael Gordon - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to john mc c:

I think you misunderstand what I wrote above.

The 2nd ascentionist, as one of the most experienced top climbers out there, is almost certain to be correct. Surely the route will be E8 or do you think differently?
johncoxmysteriously - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

This is such a perfect outcome. FC is happy, DB is happy, Andy F and his supporters get to continue with AF's grudge and shout about how they were right all along, Franco's Bieber-like fans (I'm 51; I think the rest of them will have to average a lot less than Robert's D proposed 8 years) get to shout about they were right all along, and most important of all UKC gets a load more armchair traffic. Win-win-win-win-win.

And of course Franco gets to say that the moors were beautiful the other night, which is a rather more poetic version of the standard UKC anyway-I'm-off-climbing flounce and I propose should become the UKC standard for such situations in future.

jcm
Mick Ward - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson:
> (In reply to john arran)

> Dave's vision here has actually made the route more likely to see repeats, so I'm very happy about that.

Surely the best possible outcome.


> it's still a wild beast.

It's OK - we believe you!


> It was beautiful up there tonight.

What ultimately matters most.

Mick

P.S. However much you disagreed with Andy Farnell's criticism, I'm sure you'd agree that he was entirely within his rights to raise it and he behaved decently throughout. (The latter rare on here when things get heated!)
johncoxmysteriously - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Mick Ward:

>I'm sure you'd agree that he was entirely within his rights to raise it and he behaved decently throughout

I wouldn't, actually. I thought it was pretty churlish. Everyone knows that when someone who hasn't climbed E10 proposes that grade for a new route it's a guess. It didn't need saying, and certainly not in the style AF said it. It gave me the impression his comments were motivated by personal animus, and I know a lot of other onlookers had the same feeling.

jcm
johncoxmysteriously - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Oh, and the sheep, of course. The lambs. Won't somebody think of the lambs.

jcm
ice.solo - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

one day they will make UKC the movie and the plot will center on this drama.

franco will be played by jessie eisenberg and DB by mickey rourke. us rabble in the galleries will be clever cg lifted from the nuremberg rallies and a tony robbins stadium event.
blondel - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> This is such a perfect outcome...should become the UKC standard for such situations in future.

Nicely put. Monkeys, you can all stop thumping your chests and go back to picking fleas off each other. And whole-hearted congrats to both Franco and Dave.

blondel (fell off every E-grade I ever tried but I sure as heck enjoyed all the sunrises on the bimbly crags)

RupertD - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to:

The general point that most of the doubters were making regarding the original E10 grade was that Franco didn't have enough experience to grade a route at that level. They were right. He didn't. He missed a runner that Dave Birkett, being more experienced at that level, spotted immediately. Its E8. Probably.

The fact that Francos original assessment may have been correct for what he did is irrelevant. Routes aren't graded for individual ascents. Lack of experience can cause someone to miss runners or better sequences. When they are found the grade comes down. All that Andy Farnell did was point out that this was very likely to happen when Franco offered a grade significantly outside his experience. He was right. That he possibly considered that the error was more likely to arise from a duff sequence or through a general lack of knowledge about the grade doesn't detract much from his overall assessment that stabs in the grading dark are often very wrong.

As for saying it would be E10 to onsight, that is probably rubbish. It's obvious from the floor that the route would be unprotected without something that fits in the monos. Dave obviously guessed the correct gear from his farm in langdale. Suggesting that he might not have come to the same conclusion when stood at the bottom of the route gazing up at the monos is no basis for adding 2 grades.

That's not to say that the doubters went about things in the best way, but then Franco knew what he was doing when he suggested E10.

Finally, well done Franco and Dave. Franco's ascent was very very ballsy, whatever the final number is.
billb - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to RupertD: The other point is if he had graded it E8 perhaps DB would have never made the trip to the moors to get the repeat. Thus it and Francos other routes would perhaps have never got the recognition they deserve.


Blue Straggler - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to ice.solo:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> one day they will make UKC the movie and the plot will center on this drama.
>
> franco will be played by jessie eisenberg and DB by mickey rourke. us rabble in the galleries will be clever cg lifted from the nuremberg rallies and a tony robbins stadium event.

Genius. Though I was thinking more Kurt Russell for DB :-)
john mc c - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Sure, likely its E8, since that is what has been suggested by a second ascentionist of this calibre.
ice.solo - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Blue Straggler:

aha, yes. with the eye patch.
RupertD - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to billb:
> (In reply to RupertD) The other point is if he had graded it E8 perhaps DB would have never made the trip to the moors to get the repeat. Thus it and Francos other routes would perhaps have never got the recognition they deserve.

I'm not sure of the point you're making. Are you suggesting that the E10 grade was just astute marketing?
ice.solo - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Blue Straggler:

im visualizing the scene of DB filing his bolt-hole gear, by firelight, mumbling to himself in a cabin in the urals.

franco i imagine training rocky style, with some karate kid wisdom and christian bale righteousness thrown in.
Steve Crowe - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to john mc c:

> Franco can keep the E10 as far I'm concerned until the grade consolidates further.


There are many instances in Northumberland of routes that were first climbed with "side runners" at E5 that have since been climbed without "side runners" and now get E8. So if they were right then perhaps the rule of +3 should also apply over here on The Moors. Therefore Dave Birketts E8+3 means Franco clearly deserves E11.
Mick Ward - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

John, he did bang on a bit, that's for sure! But so do you sometimes. And, when someone bangs on beyond a certain point, inevitably one suspects animus. But they may be simply very tough-minded, sticking to their stance, etc, when less tough-minded folk (like me) would have packed it in long ago and, err, gone climbing.

(Hopefully) without banging on myself, I still feel that Andy Farnell was within his rights to raise doubts. But arguing about rights with a practising lawyer and chess Grandmaster probably isn't a wise move!

The romantics among us (such as me) so wanted Franco's judgement to be vindicated - and, it pretty much was. Way back, I think somebody predicted the eventual grade would settle at E6. If that had been the case, I would have wondered about Franco's judgement or veracity. But thankfully - and to Franco's credit - it was very far from the case.

Andy Farnell's queries have been answered pretty much as well as they could have been.

Mick

P.S. Rather boringly, I have to go and do some work. So if you come up with a tart riposte shooting me down in flames, it may be some time before I'm able to inspect the mangled wreckage.



billb - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to RupertD: I would be surprised if it hadn't crossed Franco's mind. Doesn't really matter, DB has confirmed that this is a route worth making a trip for..
shark - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to RupertD:
> (In reply to billb)
> [...]
>
> I'm not sure of the point you're making. Are you suggesting that the E10 grade was just astute marketing?


He admitted nearly as much.

http://www.climbmagazine.com/news/2013/08/cookson-climbs-moors-testpiece
You've given Psykovsky's Sequins a grade of E10 7a, those are big numbers, what was the reasoning behind that grade?

Mainly to wind people up and lay down the gauntlet! I honestly have no idea how hard it is.
andy farnell - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to wheelsucker: less of the armchair! And the.punter!

Andy F
The New NickB - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to RupertD:

Franco didn't miss the runner thought did he, he looked for gear that might fit it, but didn't have Dave's collection of personally adapted kit.

Anyway, I have said quiet enough about a climb that I will never be able to climb. Well done Franco and Dave.
Blue Straggler - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to ice.solo:

How about Dane DeHaan as Franco? Watch "Chronicle" to see what I mean. That actor can certainly play a young man with more power than he can control :-)
smithaldo - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to The New NickB: Doesn't not having the bit of kit, nor the nous to try and fashion it over the period he worked on the route support Andy F's original point about experience, as don't alot of hard routes require some specialist(ish) gear?

I can't figure out where Franco's fanclub has suddenly come from. He was an idiot before with stealing quickdraws from sport routes etc, and slagging people off for not onsighting E7's yet now he's the messiah?
Darren Jackson - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to smithaldo:
>
> I can't figure out where Franco's fanclub has suddenly come from. He was an idiot before with stealing quickdraws from sport routes etc, and slagging people off for not onsighting E7's yet now he's the messiah?

He's not the Messiah; he's a very naughty boy. But he's also a very naughty boy who's climbed a new, hard route. He said it was E10. It isn't. Life goes on.
Robert Durran - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to smithaldo:

> I can't figure out where Franco's fanclub has suddenly come from....... now he's the messiah?

Not quite The Messiah, but have you heard the one The Messiah told about the Lost Sheep?

Coel Hellier - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Darren Jackson:

> He said it was E10. It isn't.

Well it is to anyone without a highly specialised and customised bit of kit. Franco's grade seems to have been spot on for anyone with a normal rack (anything one could walk into Outside or V12 and buy).

Heartless Hare is graded E5, or E3 with a side-runner. On the same principle this would be E10 with a normal rack and E8 with specialised, non-standard kit.
Ramblin dave - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to smithaldo:
> (In reply to The New NickB) Doesn't not having the bit of kit, nor the nous to try and fashion it over the period he worked on the route support Andy F's original point about experience, as don't alot of hard routes require some specialist(ish) gear?

I might be misjudging here, but I think the implication was more that you need experience to judge the difficulty effectively and that with Franco not having a history of climbing confirmed 6c and 7a, the route might turn out to be unprotected low-end 6c rather than unprotected solid 7a. There was certainly some comment on his claim that the start was 8A, but AFAICT noone said anything like "maybe there was some gear that you didn't notice..."

And a filed down slider seems to be beyond merely "specialist" - I had to look up what a slider even is, and I'd imagine that getting hold of one on to take a file to wouldn't be easy...
Darren Jackson - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:

I won't bother trying to argue with you Coel, as I'm not about to attempt it any time soon... Specialised kit or not!
In reply to Coel Hellier: So what grade is the Master's Edge without the shot hole gear then? E9?
Coel Hellier - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:

> And a filed down slider seems to be beyond merely "specialist" - I had to look up what a slider even is, ...

It's worse than that -- I know what a slider is and have used one, and know that I could buy one in a well-stocked shop -- this is an "... old piece of gear similar to a slider that he has filed down ...". So who knows that it actually is, and it may be pretty unattainable nowadays.

In which case, a guidebook would likely go for the dual grade option.
Coel Hellier - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to TobyA:

> So what grade is the Master's Edge without the shot hole gear then? E9?

Maybe, and routes can be upgraded if a crucial gear placement blows (which isn't so likely for those shot holes). But anyhow, for Master's Edge there are various options using reasonably normal gear. You can walk into Outside, ask for advice, and the guys behind the counter will hand out something.

Franco asked here for advice on protecting this route, but no-one offered any standard, off-the-shelf solution. With his rack the route seems to be about E10.
CurlyStevo - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:
" had to look up what a slider even is, and I'd imagine that getting hold of one on to take a file to wouldn't be easy... "

needlesports sell them.
CurlyStevo - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:
> (In reply to Ramblin dave)
>
> [...]
>
> It's worse than that -- I know what a slider is and have used one, and know that I could buy one in a well-stocked shop -- this is an "... old piece of gear similar to a slider that he has filed down ...". So who knows that it actually is, and it may be pretty unattainable nowadays.
>
> In which case, a guidebook would likely go for the dual grade option.

Assuming only modified gear will fit and make the climb safe, I think the only way the grade can stick at E8 7a is if it mentions what gear is needed and how to modify it (assuming modern camp ballnuts will actaully fit!)

These may work too!
http://www.totemcams.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/RemovableBolt10.jpg

johncoxmysteriously - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:

> But anyhow, for Master's Edge there are various options using reasonably normal gear.

Of course there are including a cammed number eight rock on tape, although whether anyone has tested this solution I don't know.

It's rather quaint that the same people who are now saying Franco missed a piece of gear had no useful ideas themselves on how to get gear in a drilled mono pocket.

Still, this is a tiresome debate. Everyone knows what happened; some people don't like Franco and some do, and their views align accordingly.

jcm
In reply to Coel Hellier:

> Franco asked here for advice on protecting this route, but no-one offered any standard, off-the-shelf solution.

I did, and I sent him two baby tricams - they didn't fit as I understand it, although I don't know if he tried filing them. Franco can lend them on now to anyone who has a project where they might be the crucial gear!

Darren Jackson - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:
>
> ... With his rack the route seems to be about E10.

Okay, I will argue... If I do Hargreaves' Original Route, without cams, can I claim E1?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> Of course there are including a cammed number eight rock on tape, although whether anyone has tested this solution I don't know.

Just watched a vid of Mitbø cruising it, he seems to be using just a normal big wired nut - but then he doesn't fall off.
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chris fox on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:

Franco asked a while ago if anyone knew of a removable piece of gear that would go into a bolt hole.

I sent him a link to this fancy piece of kit

http://www.totemcams.com/blog/archives/2079

http://www.totemcams.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/RemovableBolt10.jpg
CurlyStevo - on 09 Aug 2013
Mike Stretford - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Coel Hellier)
>
>
> It's rather quaint that the same people who are now saying Franco missed a piece of gear had no useful ideas themselves on how to get gear in a drilled mono pocket.

Have you crossed reference this (and the other thread)

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=465012&v=1#x6465124

Slider is mentioned. I thought I'd got in touch about providing an interference fit bolt but maybe I never sent that mail (though something along those lines is mentioned in the thread).

> Still, this is a tiresome debate. Everyone knows what happened; some people don't like Franco and some do, and their views align accordingly.
>

Sure ain't that black and white for me.

Anyway, well done Franco!
CurlyStevo - on 09 Aug 2013
More importantly which is the purer ascent Birkett with the slider and ropes or Franco using pads?
Darren Jackson - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:
>
> More importantly which is the purer ascent Birkett with the slider and ropes or Franco using pads?

Somebody obviously needs to bring this route bang up to date, and solo it using only iPads.
Coel Hellier - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Darren Jackson:

> Okay, I will argue... If I do Hargreaves' Original Route, without cams, can I claim E1?

People seem to think of grades as things written on tablets of stone that can be "claimed".

Grades are there as advice for people. Thus most climbs are graded for the sort of standard rack that a prudent climber would take. Sometimes the guide mentions specific gear issues. Sometimes the guide gives alternative grades according to whether side-runners are used.

What advice should a guide give on this route? Well it should not just give it E8 and leave it there. It could give it E8 and mention the highly specialist bit of kit required. It could also mention that without it the route would be unprotected and get a higher E grade, just as guides might mention the omission of a side runner.
CurlyStevo - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Darren Jackson:
lol
Simon Caldwell - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> Franco's Bieber-like fans (I'm 51; I think the rest of them will have to average a lot less than Robert's D proposed 8 years)

I'll be 50 next month so presumably he has a lot of foetuses on his side
LITTLE SAM - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson: What a load of shit this forum is...165 comments of niggly arguing. Only needs one post! Class effort, top man Franco well done, and good on you Dave, quality!

Everyone arguing should look outside, thats right its sunny and not raining! SO GO CLIMBING! maybe go check out the route if youve got any issues with it! If your unhappy about the grade take your shoes and get on it!!
Jimbo W on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:

> People seem to think of grades as things written on tablets of stone that can be "claimed".

You're bang on right, and it's all about ego, not about enjoying the physical difficulty in what you climb in its own right, but enjoying the physical difficulty because of what it affords you also to claim/publish (amongst the society of climbers). Grades are best regarded as a facet of route description difficulty, as you describe, with all particularities stated as necessary.
Jimbo W on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to LITTLE SAM:

Not here!!! Its raining outside, and I can't see Knoydart across Loch Hourne, so no chance of climbing here. A constitutional walk might be called for though.
shark - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier: In reply to Coel Hellier:
> (In reply to Darren Jackson)
>
> [...]
> What advice should a guide give on this route? Well it should not just give it E8 and leave it there. It could give it E8 and mention the highly specialist bit of kit required. It could also mention that without it the route would be unprotected and get a higher E grade, just as guides might mention the omission of a side runner.

Psykovsky's Sequins E8 7a

Mono pockets up the steep wall provide the holds, crux and potential gear leading to the unprotected wall above. Soloed on the first ascent and opportunistically graded E10 !

FA Franco Cookson
Simon Caldwell - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to LITTLE SAM:
1. it's raining
2. I'm at work
Calder - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to LITTLE SAM:

We're not all tax dodging parasites on society you know. Now stop skiving and get on with your essay...
Blue Straggler - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:


(figures correct at time of writing)
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=558675 gets 16 replies and 5000+ views

But the thread I am now posting on gets 174 replies and 6000+ views, in a shorter timescale.

Hmmm. Repeats are more interesting than FAs? :-)
Tyler - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:


In reply to Coel Hellier:

> Heartless Hare is graded E5, or E3 with a side-runner. On the same principle this would be E10 with a normal rack and E8 with specialised, non-standard kit.

Yes, if the principle is "the omission of a crucial runner automatically raises the grade of a route by 2". Never seen that postulated before never mind proven to be correct. You could counter your Heartless Hair example with No More Excuses at Stanage which was traditionally done with a hand placed peg, now this is usually dispensed with in favour of a few mats. None of this gets us any nearer to the grade of Franco's route without specialist kit.
 
dr evil - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to death drop: it doesn't make sense to grade routes for anything other than the easiest sequence with whatever gear is available.
Fredt on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Darren Jackson:
> (In reply to Coel Hellier)
> [...]
>
> Okay, I will argue... If I do Hargreaves' Original Route, without cams, can I claim E1?

Excellent, but what is the grade with bomber hexes?

Simon Caldwell - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Blue Straggler:
You're forgetting this one
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=558648
with 464 replies and 23,645 views :-)
Chris the Tall - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to shark:
How about "Soloed on the first ascent and given the hypothetical grade of E10"

Let's not forget that all these big E numbers, including Indian Face, Equilibrium, Walk of Life etc should not be treated as claims of achievement. They are suggestions of what the grade would be if someone were to attempt them onsight. The guy who should get the most flak for this is Dave McCloed with his "E11" film - the route may (or may not be) E11, but McCloed's ascent wasn't.

Franco seems to be aware of this and is suggesting an alternative grade system, but lets face it we have enough grade system as it is.

He does seem to be on the mark with 7a, and more importantly its a fine ascent of a quality route, which clearly gave him (and Birkett) a lot of pleasure
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Chris the Tall - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to dr evil:
> (In reply to death drop) it doesn't make sense to grade routes for anything other than the easiest sequence with whatever gear is available.

But by putting in a runner in one of the few holds on the route, it's possible to make it technically harder but objectively easier. So it could be E8 7a or E9 6c, depending on whether you use gear...hypothetically of course!

Coel Hellier - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to shark:

Your description is ok, but it's not really an "encourage the onsight" route description, it's an "ab down and check the gear first" route description.
SCrossley on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to ice.solo:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> one day they will make UKC the movie and the plot will center on this drama.
>
>

I was thinking something along the lines of Batman. The call goes out a grade needs confirming or a sheep needs rescuing or there is a DT issue and somewhere in a valley near Langdale, the Birkett phone goes off and our unassuming hero leaps onto his BirkettBike and speeds to the rescue, and once the deed is done quietly goes back to Crushing slate with his bare hands and being the nicest guy in British climbing.

Blue Straggler - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Toreador:
> (In reply to Blue Straggler)
> You're forgetting this one
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=558648
> with 464 replies and 23,645 views :-)

How could I forget?! No, I was comparing "official UKC News" articles, not bile-spitting almost-trolls :-) (nothing personal Andy F and I know you were not trolling)
Simon Caldwell - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

What are the odds on the route falling down before it gets another ascent?

http://moorsfa.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/danby-crag-collapse.html
Steve Crowe - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Toreador:

Details of all the routes at Danby up to 2012 can be found here:

http://www.climbonline.co.uk/danby.htm
JoshOvki on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

Did any routes get downgraded when cams started to get used? (Because they are better protected)
Coel Hellier - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to JoshOvki:

> Did any routes get downgraded when cams started to get used?

What happened is that any routes that weren't made safer by cams tended to be upgraded relative to others, through gradual grade inflation over time.
planetmarshall on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News: Enough about this climbing nonsense. What about the sheep?
Mike Stretford - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to planetmarshall: baaahhh.
Offwidth - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to TobyA:

The shot holes at Millstone (and other similar drilled holes in quarries) take a variety of gear including: some medium-large nuts bent over backwards, a passive tricam, and several varieties of narrow headed cams; and there are checking holes you can test at ground level; its a completely different situation.

I'd grade Franco's route E8 7a with the highly specialised gear specified very clearly and with a sub-grade of E10 without it. I'd also like it to be clear he didn't miss the placement opportunity (as some say in this thread) he just didn't find anything that would fit and graded E10 assuming that and was spot on in that assessment.

I'd have still psid up on my bet but no-one called me on it.

JCM's post is very astute: has there ever been a result with so many winners.
shark - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> (In reply to shark)
> How about "Soloed on the first ascent and given the hypothetical grade of E10"
>
> Let's not forget that all these big E numbers, including Indian Face, Equilibrium, Walk of Life etc should not be treated as claims of achievement. They are suggestions of what the grade would be if someone were to attempt them onsight. The guy who should get the most flak for this is Dave McCloed with his "E11" film - the route may (or may not be) E11, but McCloed's ascent wasn't.



They are claims of achievement. Dave Mac headpointed a route which he graded E11 - a meaningful estimation of its difficulty which Steve Mac confirmed. No flak required. Onsighting is harder to the tune of about 3 grades so a pundit might view that as equivalent to an onsight of an E8 but nonetheless he climbed an E11 in accepted style - ie headpoint.

With all the shenanigans that go with trad climbing the mantra that E grades are for "the onsight" can end being a bit ridiculous and academic if rigidly adhered to especially in the higher grades at the cutting edge.

In any case, I was told when I started climbing (and you know how long ago that was) that routes are graded for the easiest way to do it not readability of the moves and certainly not for missing out gear.
shark - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:
> (In reply to shark)
>
> Your description is ok, but it's not really an "encourage the onsight" route description, it's an "ab down and check the gear first" route description.



So that would make it "a real world" description then, not that I imagine for one second that it would dissuade someone enthusiastic and talented (or vainglorious) enough to attempt an onsight.


pigeonjim on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson:

Good effort weeman. Glad that someone who actually climbs these grades and climbed it and confirmed its nails. Hopefully shut up some of the arm chair eggits having a go at you without actually trying the route.
TheDrunkenBakers - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News: haha, funny thread.

Stop worrying folks, in the grand scheme of things it all doesnt really matter.

Nic on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

<ahem>

Does anyone know what the sport grade of this route would be?

<ducks>
Micky J - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to dr evil: So you regularly set off with a peck cracker on your rack ?
estivoautumnal - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to pigeonjim:

> Hopefully shut up some of the arm chair eggits

Eggits. That's funny.

Eejit.
Niall - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Nic:

Can't be bothered reading the whole thread, can somebody summarise?

1. Franco - Wad, DB - Wad

2. Franco - Non Wad, DB - Wad

3. Franco - Non Wad, DB - Non Wad

or

4. Franco - Wad, DB - Non Wad?

Ta.
andrewmcleod - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

Both grades are wrong. The route is continuously protectable at every point using Gecko feet pads. Both climbers just failed to spend the time researching gecko feet, developing synthetic adhesives and commercializing it into an extremely strong removable pad which can be stuck to the cliff and peeled off later... :P
ads.ukclimbing.com
Michael Gordon - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Niall:

Franco - Bolder Wad, DB - Wad with more gear
bouldery bits - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

It's E0.
Niall - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Franco - Pinky Wad, Dave - Esoterica Wad?
Michael Gordon - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Niall: yes or the other way round perhaps!
paul__in_sheffield - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: if Franco and DB give it a French grade, then we unequivocally know how hard it is to climb, irrespective of custom sliders or mats.
Enty - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to death drop:
> (In reply to dr evil) So you regularly set off with a peck cracker on your rack ?

Like ^^^

E
Enty - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

Anyhow - I was out climbing all day so missed too much of this thread to make any more worthwhile comments. All I can say is that John Cox hit the nail on the head.
Also - to compare the gear needed for Franco's route with the gear needed to protect Master's Edge makes you look a bit simple.

E
Jon Read - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Niall:
No. You are responsible for you own opinion; take charge of it.
Kemics - on 09 Aug 2013
How do i go about paying Dave Birkett £5? Do you think he has PayPal?

Niall - on 09 Aug 2013
In reply to Jon Read:
> (In reply to Niall)
> No. You are responsible for you own opinion; take charge of it.

Damn it all man, I'm too busy to think. Point me towards the herd! :-)
Erik B - on 10 Aug 2013
In reply to Niall: honestly, so this man that has really strong ethics has filed down an ancient rare sort of slider bit of gear thing which nobody else has?, which he uses and down-grades a route as a result? and the majority on this thread accept his judgement? pile of pish

well done on yer E10 Franco, Steve Crowe made very relevant point about Northumberland, which as usual was ignored by the herd.
dr evil - on 10 Aug 2013
In reply to death drop: I'm a bit mystified by this. I've been called a white cracker mofo a few times where I live. I've googled peck cracker and it looks like some kind of early hexentric. If its the latter you are referring to then I presume one of the routes you are referring to uses one as protection?
Franco Cookson on 10 Aug 2013
In reply to paul__in_sheffield:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously) if Franco and DB give it a French grade, then we unequivocally know how hard it is to climb, irrespective of custom sliders or mats.

I'd guess around f9a...
Hugh Cottam - on 10 Aug 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson:
E10 or no E10, you're staying up too late Franco. Now get yourself to bed.
Troy Tempest - on 10 Aug 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson:
All this bleedin' fuss you've caused. Can't you just sit around on the forums like the rest of us? Is all this nonsense going to happen every time you tie in now? ;P
Steve Crowe - on 10 Aug 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson:
>
> I'd guess around f9a...

It will be if you put bolts in all those old bolt holes!

Mike Stretford - on 10 Aug 2013
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> Anyhow - I was out climbing all day so missed too much of this thread to make any more worthwhile comments. All I can say is that John Cox hit the nail on the head.

Cox's latest post was demonstrably rubbish (as was demonstrated). Obviously the gear talk takes nothing away from Franco's ascent.... even punters like me could appreciated why 2 climbers would do this climb differently, but the gear issue is mildly interested to some stuck at work. Right, off to the Lakes.
The New NickB - on 10 Aug 2013
In reply to Toreador:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
> [...]
>
> I'll be 50 next month so presumably he has a lot of foetuses on his side

I'm only 38 so bring the average of stated ages down to a youthful 47 ish!
Micky J - on 10 Aug 2013
In reply to dr evil:
> (In reply to death drop) I'm a bit mystified by this. I've been called a white cracker mofo a few times where I live. I've googled peck cracker and it looks like some kind of early hexentric. If its the latter you are referring to then I presume one of the routes you are referring to uses one as protection?

No it was just an example of a dated / specialist piece of protection that the vast majority of climbers wont have or even know about . A bit like a filed down slider . Off topic i own a slider ( not filed ) and once took a thirty footer onto a peck cracker . Then again ive been around a while and know what the f*ck i am on about .
biped - on 10 Aug 2013
In reply to death drop:
> (In reply to dr evil)
> [...]
>
> Then again ive been around a while and know what the f*ck i am on about .

Clearly, but I doubt if you know who the f*ck you're replying to. (Not me BTW)
paul__in_sheffield - on 10 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News: just out of interest, regrading for gear doesn't always have to be associated with 'specialist' placements. I think Clippety Clop at Ramshaw was originally graded E8 6c which was then downgraded to E7 with subsequent ascent using a Friend 6. I seem to remember a piece of timber was also used at some point.
Anyhow, back to Francos route. The subsequent E8 grade using a slider seems to indicate the original grade of E10 without was pretty near the mark. Well done Franco.
The Pylon King on 10 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

Again, well done Franco, sounds like you were pretty accurate with your E10 grading. And of course, well done Dave!
A couple of heros!
Just Another Dave - on 11 Aug 2013
In reply to UKC News:

So this film, what about the music for the training montage? And can it build into an angry dance like Brett in Flight of the Conchords?
malk - on 11 Aug 2013
In reply to Just Another Dave: if only this news was important enough for an NMA animated news article;(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYmQk3Avyxc
Micky J - on 11 Aug 2013
In reply to biped:
> (In reply to death drop)
> [...]
>
> Clearly, but I doubt if you know who the f*ck you're replying to. (Not me BTW)
Am i supposed to be impressed ? I once climbed with Cathrine Destivelle and had a brew with Wolfgang so stick that in your f*cking pipe .
Goucho on 11 Aug 2013
In reply to death drop:
> (In reply to biped)
> [...]
> Am i supposed to be impressed ? I once climbed with Cathrine Destivelle and had a brew with Wolfgang so stick that in your f*cking pipe .

I'd hazard a guess that starting a game of 'top trumps' in the name dropping department on here, could be rather counter productive.
Enty - on 11 Aug 2013
In reply to Goucho:
> (In reply to death drop)
> [...]
>
> I'd hazard a guess that starting a game of 'top trumps' in the name dropping department on here, could be rather counter productive.

It would be if you were called Biped ;-)

E
Micky J - on 11 Aug 2013
In reply to Goucho:
> (In reply to death drop)
> [...]
>
> I'd hazard a guess that starting a game of 'top trumps' in the name dropping department on here, could be rather counter productive.

I am also the secret love child of Chris Bonnington and Lynn Hill . I have a beard and a nice arse .
Goucho on 11 Aug 2013
In reply to death drop:
> (In reply to Goucho)
> [...]
>
> I am also the secret love child of Chris Bonnington and Lynn Hill . I have a beard and a nice arse .

You also have 2 brothers then.

Micky J - on 11 Aug 2013
In reply to Goucho: And a sister she also has a beard and a nice arse ....genetics eh !
Craig Smith on 13 Aug 2013 - 95.147.247.5 whois?
Nice one Dave and well done Franco.

The E grade has been abused since it was introduced way back when. In Yorkshire in the 80's Mick Ryan and I tried to get rid of it for Gritstone routes because it was being abused for Ego and sponcorship purposes. We reasoned that all you really need is a tech grade and a danger grade. The danger grade does not need to be open ended: P1 = safe, P 2 = spicey, P3 = dangerous.

Best wishes,
Craig
MarkL - on 13 Aug 2013
Any route becomes Diff if you use my Metaclamps® (patent pending).
These use a revolutionay and previously undiscovered elementary particle to generate a "quantum cohesive interface" with the rock. Simply put, you just place them against the rock wherever you need protection, press the green button, and hey presto - immovable protection! To remove, just press the red button. The most significant addition to climbing equipment since, well, EVER. And the added bonus of the end of all boring and repetitive grade debates. But what else will we write about?
climbercool - on 13 Aug 2013
In reply to Craig Smith: couldn't agree more. the only possible explanation i can see for the e grading system, is that it feeds peoples egos. ben
malk - on 13 Aug 2013
In reply to Craig Smith: why not treat the P grade like the E and H grades? ie 1-10 or even 11..
malk - on 13 Aug 2013
malk - on 13 Aug 2013
In reply to MarkL: have you tried beetle-tape? i've found an extra two grades since using it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19875247
Franco Cookson on 09 Sep 2013
In reply to Tyler:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
>
>
> That suggests they may be of some use so maybe no gear doesn't equall death/E10?


If I had suspected a fall from the crux would be death, I'd have given it H11/E12. H9/E10 was the mid-grade, the equivalent of an E4 6a say, instead of an E6 6a.

I think doubting an inexperienced climber's grades is fair enough, but I don't think it should be the main focus of the debate around a new route, nor approached in the way Farnell did it.
andy farnell - on 09 Sep 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson:
> (In reply to Tyler)
> [...]
>
>
> If I had suspected a fall from the crux would be death, I'd have given it H11/E12. H9/E10 was the mid-grade, the equivalent of an E4 6a say, instead of an E6 6a.
>
> I think doubting an inexperienced climber's grades is fair enough, but I don't think it should be the main focus of the debate around a new route, nor approached in the way Farnell did it.

Franco,

You say doubting the grading is fair, yet say it shouldn't be the main focus. Strange when you admitted giving it the grade to attract attention, which it did. Why then moan that the grade was the focus of a long and hotly debated thread on an open internet forum.
Andy F
Al Evans on 09 Sep 2013
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> I agree.
>
> Wasn't there a hard route at Kilnsey which relied on a filed down nut? I don't think you can grade routes for specialised bits of gear.
>
> E

I made a specialised nut for the shothole on Boat Pushers Wall for the second ascent, Jack Street (the first ascencionist), a mate to this day brought it up last year as an act of cheating, it obviously still rankles :-)
SI - profile removed on 09 Sep 2013
In reply to andy farnell:
> (In reply to Franco Cookson)
> [...]
>
> Franco,
>
> You say doubting the grading is fair, yet say it shouldn't be the main focus. Strange when you admitted giving it the grade to attract attention, which it did. Why then moan that the grade was the focus of a long and hotly debated thread on an open internet forum.
> Andy F


But the grade was correct without specialist home made kit, kit Franco didn't know existed. You started a thread saying Franco wasn't good enough to climb an E10, myself and many others probably thought the same but gave him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. At no point on that thread did you claim the grade was suspect because Franco missed gear. You also made snide comments about hypocrisy of the moose, benchmark E8 according to Dave. If Franco hadn't graded it E10, the grade he justifiable thought it was he wouldn't have two confirmed E8's to his name.
andy farnell - on 09 Sep 2013
In reply to shaun l: Shaun, a couple of points:
1) The kit wasn't home made, just unusual, and available to buy albeit hard to get hold of
2) I have at no point said Franco wasn't good enough to climb E10, I simply asked what was he basing the grade on as he has no history of repeating other routes of a similar grade. A more than valid question given the magnitude of the grade.
3) Where did I make a 'snide' comment about the route 'Hypocrisy of Moose'. I didn't know what the route was until you mentioned it.
4) E10 is a long way from E8. Doing two in your local area, nothing harder and nothing of that difficulty outside your area doesn't make for solid ground on which to state a grade of national/international difficulty.

Andy F
John2 - on 09 Sep 2013
In reply to andy farnell: The gear was a filed down slider. You can't buy filed down sliders.
Oceanrower - on 09 Sep 2013
In reply to : Everybody

Is there really any more to add to this thread that hasn't been said several times already?

Let it die a graceful death!

SI - profile removed on 09 Sep 2013
In reply to andy farnell: Apologies, snide comment was unjustified. But I do recall you saying that he only had his own E8 to compare it to, implying to me that the grade of hypocrisy was probably wrong. You started a thread criticising the grade. What grade should he have given the route? An E8 is as far from an E10 as a vs is from an E1, and plenty of E1 and vs routes are as hard to climb (gear aside) as one another. So the route would be at least E9 if the gear wasn't there, possibly E10.
kevin stephens - on 09 Sep 2013
In reply to shaun l:
> (In reply to andy farnell).....implying to me that ......

This thread would have been a lot shorter if responders had taken the care to read and respond to exactly what other posters had typed, rather than "going off on one" on the basis of what they think had been meant but not typed

SI - profile removed on 09 Sep 2013
In reply to kevin stephens: Just stop reading it then.
Coel Hellier - on 09 Sep 2013
In reply to andy farnell:

> 1) The kit wasn't home made, just unusual, and available to buy albeit hard to get hold of

In reply to John2:

> The gear was a filed down slider. You can't buy filed down sliders.

For the record, the piece says: "Dave has an old piece of gear SIMILAR TO a slider that he has filed down to fit in mono holds". (Added emphasis.)

If it's old and "similar to" a slider then it's likely not available to buy, filed down or otherwise. If it was available to buy they'd likely have named it.
andy farnell - on 09 Sep 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:
> (In reply to andy farnell)
>
> [...]
>
> In reply to John2:
>
> [...]
>
> For the record, the piece says: "Dave has an old piece of gear SIMILAR TO a slider that he has filed douwn to fit in mono holds". (Added emphasis.)
>
> If
it's old and "similar to" a slider then it's likely not available to buy, filed down or otherwise. If it was available to buy they'd likely have named it.

Sorry, my mistake.

Andy F

Simon Caldwell - on 10 Sep 2013
In reply to andy farnell:

apparently they are filming a remake of Groundhog Day
johncoxmysteriously - on 10 Sep 2013
In reply to andy farnell:

> Why then moan that the grade was the focus of a long and hotly debated thread on an open internet forum.

C'mon, andy, stop with this disingenuous nonsense. What got people's back up with your initial post was not the fact of a debate but its tone, which struck many people as graceless, critical and failing to give credit where it was due. A debate is fine, but a respectful debate.

jcm
JLS on 10 Sep 2013
In reply to Toreador:

apparently they are filming a remake of Groundhog Day
puppythedog on 10 Sep 2013
In reply to andy farnell: > Why then moan that the grade was the focus of a long and hotly debated thread on an open internet forum.

C'mon, andy, stop with this disingenuous nonsense. What got people's back up with your initial post was not the fact of a debate but its tone, which struck many people as graceless, critical and failing to give credit where it was due. A debate is fine, but a respectful debate.

jcm

puppythedog on 10 Sep 2013
In reply to JLS: apparently they are filming a remake of Groundhog Day
dr_botnik - on 10 Sep 2013
In reply to UKC News: Should've called it "monopoly"
Steve Crowe - on 10 Sep 2013
In reply to andy farnell:

What I heard was "Dave is an old timer who filed down his gnarly fingers to fit the mono."

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