/ 8a trad/UK women?

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The Finnish climbing website Slouppi has just reported the first 8a trad route climbed by a Finnish woman; Anu Korosuo climbed Mustang in Cadarese, Italy. The route looks absolutely superb in the photo of her on it http://www.haukkari.net/2013/08/roadtripping-back-in-cadarese.html I can't remember exactly, but I guess it's only about a decade since the first Finn woman climbed 8a sport.

Anyway - I was racking my brains trying to work out how many British women have done trad routes that are 8a or harder? Ms. Findlay's fine ascents just about everywhere most obviously - but how far back does it go? I don't know the french grade equivalents of the hard North Wales routes that Glenda Huxter was doing in the 90s or the Pembroke routes that Fliss Butler had done before that? Would any of them be 8a? And I'm sure there have been some ascents I forgotten about - trad Yorkshire limestone maybe?

Anyway, congrats to Anu - not only a brick hard route buts such a beautiful looking one too! Cobra Crack next?
johncoxmysteriously - on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to TobyA:

Gosh, what an amazing-looking route.

Pretty sure the Brit trad list consists of one climber. The Bells and the other E7s Glenda did are nowhere near 8a, and nor is Dreams and Screams or the other things Fliss did.

jcm
mattrm - on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to TobyA:

That does indeed look like an awesome route. If I ever get to 8a I'm remembering that and heading over to Italy to give it a bash.

Not wanting to hijack the thread, but are there any nice trad cracks over there at a slightly more punterish grade? low 7s?
AJM - on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to mattrm:

Trad I don't know, but you might enjoy http://tomrandallclimbing.wordpress.com/2013/04/19/italian-trad-cracks-part-ii/ about cadarese too. It's on my list for next year, I predict it will be humiliating at first but ultimately good for me!
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I had this pic in mind http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=166712 but the logbook comments suggest "only" 7b/7b+.

What about Karin Magog's various very hard trad limestone and Lakes leads? Hasn't she climbed E8? That must be getting into 8a territory.
Robert Durran - on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to TobyA:
> The route looks absolutely superb in the photo of her on it http://www.haukkari.net/2013/08/roadtripping-back-in-cadarese.html

Do you know where the picture is at the top of this link is taken?
In reply to Robert Durran: Patagonia - that seems to be Saku's (the blog author and husband to Anu) trademark pose; scroll down here for example http://www.haukkari.net/2010/08/flatanger.html :) Not sure what peak though.
Mark Collins - on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to TobyA: Lucy Creamer with Slab and Crack not quite at F7c
Mark Collins - on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to TobyA:
> What about Karin Magog's various very hard trad limestone and Lakes leads? Hasn't she climbed E8? That must be getting into 8a territory.

Yes, Bleed in Hell, F8b.
In reply to Mark Collins:
> Lucy Creamer with Slab and Crack not quite at F7c

Not sure I get you, do you mean Slab and Crack is actually 8a?

I did think Ms. Creamer was a likely candidate but couldn't remember what her hardest trad routes, UK or not, have been.

Michael Ryan - on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to TobyA:

Not many males of the species have climbed 8a on trad!
Mark Collins - on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to TobyA:
> Not sure I get you, do you mean Slab and Crack is actually 8a?

No, I mean its close (7c) so worth mentioning.
mattrm - on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to Mark Collins:
> (In reply to TobyA)
> [...]
>
> Yes, Bleed in Hell, F8b.

Mary Jenner has climbed Bleed in Hell as well. I guess she's not officially a brit, but as good as!
In reply to mattrm: I remembered she had done it just before Karin Magog, but maybe the South Africans get to claim that one? I guess some of Ms. Ciavaldini's Pembroke exploits must be 8a and harder, but I don't think us Brits can "borrow" them either. :)

Anyway, surely there has to be a few more?

John2 - on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to TobyA: Chupacabra was reckoned to be 8a+. Hazel Findlay has climbed San Simeon, 8A, as a trad route.
TomPR - on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to Mark Collins:

Bleed in Hell is not 8b in a million years. A great route, but more like hard 8a.

To others: Cadarese is an amazing place. One of the best for crack climbing in Europe. The Mustang route isn't quite as cool as it looks in photos (for some reason one that photographs better than it looks in real life!) but there are other stunners such as The Doors, Grazie Riky & Turkey Crack for those looking to 8a and above.

I would imagine Toy Boy if converted to sport grade must get close to 8a, which Katy W did. But maybe you can't do that if it's now a highball....?
In reply to TomPR:

Thanks Tom.

> Bleed in Hell is not 8b in a million years. A great route, but more like hard 8a.

OK, but 8a is 8a - I did wonder if Mark meant Karin has climbed 8b sport AND did Bleed in Hell, but anyway, she's in.

> The Mustang route isn't quite as cool as it looks in photos (for some reason one that photographs better than it looks in real life!)

The difference between looking up from the ground (climber's view) vs. looking down from above (photographer's view)?

> I would imagine Toy Boy if converted to sport grade must get close to 8a, which Katy W did. But maybe you can't do that if it's now a highball....?

If she led it rather than highballed it over mats (and snow?) I reckon it counts. So back to the original question, so far we have:

UK Trad 8a women:
Hazel Findlay (numerous)
Karin Magog (Bleed in Hell)
Katy Whitaker (Toy Boy)

Honourable mentions:
Mary Jenner (Bleed in Hell - but we think she is still South African [please correct me if that's wrong])
Caroline Ciavaldini (Very hard trad routes in the UK - but not British)

Any advance on this list?
AJM - on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to TobyA:

> If she led it rather than highballed it over mats (and snow?) I reckon it counts. So back to the original question, so far we have:

> Katy Whitaker (Toy Boy)

Is that the hard one on Great Slab at Froggatt? Does it even have any gear?
In reply to AJM:

> Is that the hard one on Great Slab at Froggatt? Does it even have any gear?

Dan Varian seems to think it's a boulder problem http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=45427 although says its very morpho, although I don't know if in a way that would make it harder or easier for Katy - probably the former as height rarely seems to hurt!

Does this mean then she has to come off the list? And are there really no more? Surely there are some dark horses or granite experts who have done it in Yosemite or somewhere like that?

And another list-making aside - was Requiem the UK's first 8a-or-harder (IIRC it's 8a+) trad route in 1983?
AJM - on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to TobyA:

Your list your rules. Do you include things like Parisellas or Tor traverses that are 8a or above route grade as well? That might boost your numbers.

You're unlikely to get 8a on anything much below about E8 and there are plenty of harder things that are physically easier, and there just aren't that many women ticking those grades...?

As for requiem, I seem to remember someone (TomPR?) saying it's not actually 8a+ but if it was its probably one of the first - wasn't Statement about 1984...?
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In reply to AJM:

> Your list your rules. Do you include things like Parisellas or Tor traverses that are 8a or above route grade as well? That might boost your numbers.

No, I was really just interested in trad routes, obviously a good handful of Brit women have climbed sport 8a. More just trying to see Ms. Korosuo's ascent in context. I know a fair number of the top US women will have done 8a trad, and we've mentioned a few other nationalities on this thread as well. I know at least Malin Holmberg (SWE) has done 8a trad in Bohuslšn and probably now in Lofoten with the route she did with Dave Pickford, but I'm surprised if a few other UK women haven't. Perhaps Mick is right, that few men have done it, so no surprise that its only a few women too.

> As for requiem, I seem to remember someone (TomPR?) saying it's not actually 8a+ but if it was its probably one of the first - wasn't Statement about 1984...?

But Statement was a sports route from the start was it not? Even if some of the fixed gear was pegs/threads etc.
AJM - on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to TobyA:

Ah sorry I didn't see you had said trad in that bit.

I think Statement was bolted from the outset and was one of the first to be (hence a statement i guess).

Probably yes then would be my guess, but it is only that.
TomPR - on 22 Aug 2013
It might be a bit misleading to say hardly any/few UK men have climbed trad 8a. I'd say it's at least 20-30.... I think I can think of 20 myself!

Still, I guess that's not exactly a big number.
The Fox - on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to TobyA: how does Snap Decision at Ilkley (E7 6c) equate do you think?
In reply to TomPR:

> It might be a bit misleading to say hardly any/few UK men have climbed trad 8a. I'd say it's at least 20-30.... I think I can think of 20 myself!

We should do that as another list, it would be a great selection of routes no doubt! :)

> Still, I guess that's not exactly a big number.

Not huge but very respectable I guess; I suspect the UK would have a few more trad 8a-ers of either sex than France or Italy, which are basically the same population size. But I am surprised that there aren't more women - could it really be only Hazel F and Karin M? I'm wondering if someone like Anne Arran, Louise Thomas, Silvia Fitzpatrick (if she's British nowadays) might have done one; all climbers with very impressive CVs for mountain and expedition climbs.

In reply to The Fox: No idea, I haven't even climbed that much grit myself let alone hard stuff. It does seem lots of grit lines do get suggested French grades, so someone like Tom may well know. Has Snap been climbed by women (or a woman) then? Naomi Buys maybe?
TomPR - on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to The Fox: Snap Decision. 7b? maybe 7a+? Hard to grade grit routes!

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