/ I rally want to start climbing

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cheek to the rock - on 04 Sep 2013
Ive got 8 antique weird shaped nuts of ebay arriving saturday.Ive got 4 slings 2/220,s and 2 120,s and i have 4 spare s/g bieners,could i do a short route on this gear??? say the crooked crack at wilton 3.I could get to the over hang without any gear and just put 2 in above the lip to save my arse...what do you experts say?
needvert on 04 Sep 2013
I say the gear and the instruction to keep you safe is extremely cheap compared to medical bills from accidents.

Are these your nuts? (Didn't think I'd be typing that today.)
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=226529

Between those nuts, some slings and 4 biners...I'd be game to try some shorts routes that I didn't think I wasn't going to fall off of. Particully if there was threading or tree slinging oppotunity.

I'm a beginner too, so you'll have to wait a bit longer for an expert..
GridNorth - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock: If you have not climbed before jumping straight onto a VS lead may not be the best decision you have ever made.
jayjackson - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock:

You'll need to attach your rope to the gear with something (usually an extender: karabiner-short length of sling-karabiner) to prevent the rope movement dislodging the gear you place. Assuming you're planning to use your slings and screwgates for this, but don't forget that you may need some kit for building a belay at the top with too.

I'm afraid the nuts don't fill me with confidence - personally I'd hold off until I had a set of new nuts and some extenders.

...and a nut key for your second, otherwise you may need to buy another new set of nuts quite quickly!
csw on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock:

Unless you've done Crooked crack a lot on a top rope and you're confident you've got the moves nailed then I'd maybe lower my sights a bit. if the chocks you're getting are wires then you'll need extenders and if they're threaded then you'll want to replace the cord before you do anything with them.

I seem to recall the top section of CC is quite dusty, so I'd definitely be looking to protect more than just the overhang - and you should think about backing up your gear, unless you're super-confident in your ability to place bomber gear first time, every time.

Have you thought about nipping over to Cadshaw castle rocks? When you're starting to lead it's better to climb well within your abilities so you can give all your thought to getting the gear right.
cheek to the rock - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to GridNorth: My nuts and clogs have just arrived:) decision made,ive also decided to put my helmit on.If i cant get the placements i will abandon it,but after looking at my gear i think its possible,gonna double my slings as runners.Im also practising it on the top rope first.Last time i did it on a top rope i was surprised how comfortable i felt,and theres good rest points just where i need the gear
GridNorth - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock: If you can't get the gear you will abandon it? How does that work then? What if you can't any gear in and your are several metres off the ground and well above the previous runner as your strength drains, your legs shake and there is no one around to drop you a top rope?

jkarran - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock:

You could climb on that kit and indeed I would subject to a good inspection climb above some of those nuts but I'd not spend money on them!

As to what you could protect: Realistically given your apparent inexperience I'd say short ish easy crack routes, stuff with simple nut placements and good rest positions from which to place them. Slabby natural grit with regular breaks and a crack is a pretty good starting point. I'm assuming you have quickdraws?

If you're going to get into climbing then save your money, don't buy tat. You'll be using it for at least a decade so try other people's kit out to make sure climbing is for you and decide what you like then get the best you can justify, not the cheapest you can find. I'd certainly not be buying 2nd hand ebay slings if that's what you're implying you've done.

A modern set of nuts is what, 60 plus a few hexes for 40 and away you go. With a bit of knowledge* and a capable belayer that opens up thousands of routes to you in relative safety. Start with the easy ones, develop your judgement, skills and rack gradually.

*This is really the important bit. It can come from books and hands-on practice if you are good with that type of learning. Most seem to do better learning from someone experienced.

Good luck,
jk
Jamie B - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock:

Do you have a more experienced partner? That is by far the most important piece of kit!
needvert on 04 Sep 2013
Doing a bit of grade conversion between our local grading system and you brits...So my hardest sports lead is a 6a, hardest trad is probably a long multipitch HS or a single pitch VS. First trad lead was a D or VD, hardest clean top rope is a 6b+ to 6c-ish.

So, I sorta agree with the concern of the guys above. Not to detract from your ambition...

You could also build up to it differently, rather than top rope then red point it, you could top rope then pink point it. Maybe find someone else to lend you a more fuller rack before you embark if what you have doesn't work.

I'm not sure what you know or don't know, but I think always having in the back of your mind what the consequence of a fall is, even if you feel solid, is important...Everyone pops off at times.

There's an E1 on my todo list, I've done it on solo TR aid a few times so know the gear well, done it on top rope a few times.
Just have to work up to doing a redpoint!


Let us know how you go.
cheek to the rock - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to Jamie B: Yes but he is too sensible to take on this one so i will have to make do with my mate bones ha ha ha
csw on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock:

Don't do it - it will still be there when you have a proper rack, and there's a world of difference between making the moves on a top rope and high above suspect gear - if you're going to use your slings to extend your chocks, then you have a maximum of 4 bits, and then you'll be left with nothing to build a belay. You're playing russian roulette here

Still - if you're absolutely determined, then let us know how it went - it's a while since I last did it, but I seem to recall a fall from the top moves, with gear at the overhang would guarantee you decking, even if it held. something to think about?
cheek to the rock - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to jkarran:Slings rope and bieners are new,thinking of doubling the small slings to make runners.gonna test the nuts with my body weight at ground level,i know it doesnt account for fall factor but it will make me feel better about it,looked at them and they look strong
Jamie B - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock:

> gonna test the nuts with my body weight at ground level

Meaningless. It's not the nuts which might fail, it's the placements you put them in. Get some help or you may get hurt.
cheek to the rock - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to csw: lol yeah a boulder pad would be nice,and we usally film it ha ha ha might be on the news...no im not gonna step over the line im gonna work it all out in my head first see if the gear fits and have an escape plan if it go,s tits up
cheek to the rock - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to Jamie B: If they dont fit the route then i will have to find a route they fit.Im not planning on falling off mate.Sometimes im a bit thick but i usally manage look after myself.If it dont go,i will leave it
cheek to the rock - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to csw: I think mess up before or as you go past the lip=gonna hurt but soon get over it.Mess up after the lip and i wont be climbing for a while so i really dont want to do that.
cheek to the rock - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to csw: Theres a comfortable bit just before you go for the top,but i cant remeber what the cracks like there and if it will take the nuts ive got,so while im t/r it i will try them first.I know people class that as cheating the route but i think with what ive got its best to keep safe
goose299 - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock:
I hope you're logbook is wrong as you've only led one VDiff and now just jumping straight on a VS
What happened to new climberss doing an apprenticeship on easier routes (d/vd's) to get their knowledge up to scratch?
RockSteady on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock:

Sounds like you are psyched. But just a thought - usually the trad climbing 'ethic' is to try to onsight routes and not pre-practice them. Obviously you've already top-roped this so the onsight is off.

But...a more traditional way of approaching this would be to build up your experience leading easier routes onsight, until the point where you had the experience to take this route on with real confidence. Then you'd know whether your gear would work and go for the route from the ground.

If it was sport climbing then there is much more of a practice ethic so top-roping it repeatedly would be well within standard way of doing things.

Up to you in the end, I'm just suggesting an alternative way of looking at things. Every climber has to make their own decisions on safety and the 'ethics' of how to approach climbing.
cheek to the rock - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to goose299: Ok heres why,the gear ive got i think will go in the crooked crack.The vd,s at wilton that ive done are all ledgey routes not real good for the limited gear i have.I will check again.I just think that crack was made for my gear,maybe not and i might have to wait for it.I will let you know tomorrow night :)
robthered - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock:

As (some) people tried to explain/suggest in your 'grade obsession' thread - what's the rush? (although the thread title gives it away).

Why would you target a VS as your second(?)lead on 2nd hand/untested gear? There a reason people start Trad at the lowest grades - not because they're 'scared' or can't climb harder, most certainly can - but because these climbs usually afford the luxury of standing on a ledge whilst you take your time getting used to spotting placements, handling and placing gear properly, setting good belays and so on.

You might well do the VS, but equally, the approach you are describing will mean that you won't have learned much about the basics that you need to get wired before real progression.

I'm a relative novice/punter myself. I understand the drive to 'crack on with it' (check out my Wye Valley E1 thread... which I have a bit of cringe about nowadays), and I wish you luck, but some things are worth taking your time over...




BPT@work on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock:

Some good advice here, tho' I get the impression that you have a good sense of self-preseervation.

I know from previous posts on other threads that at the moment your prime enjoyment comes from the physical side of climbing. You've certainly picked a climb which many VS leaders find very physical so if you are going to lead it after top-roping make sure you've got your sequence wired.

It could be a challenge to place a couple of nuts above the lip without blocking good hand-holds.

The large, flat hold to the right of the o'hang is in, but it takes you away from the crack and there is no reliable gear outside the crack AFAIK.

It can be climbed gracefully if you use your feet well and can jam for a couple of moves.

If you decide to lead it, make sure your belayer stands as close to the wall as possible - you don't want any of it lifting out if you do fall.

All of that wall will be very sandy near the top.

Have you considered warming up on Eeny, Meeny, Miney, and / or Mo? They're good routes and have the advantage of a belay stake which is quite conveniently placed.

Stay safe and have fun!

PS Shooters have priority on Wednesdays.
cheek to the rock - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to robthered: You might well do the VS, but equally, the approach you are describing will mean that you won't have learned much about the basics that you need to get wired before real progression.
This hit home.Maybe i am rushing.I just want to get doing something and the crack seems right for the gear.I will now have a good look at the vd,s again.
cheek to the rock - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to BPT@work: Yeah im going to have a good look at the one i missed its a vd.Going tomorrow night
robthered - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock:

Cool. Like I said, I know how you feel.

Although I led HVS 5a cleanly first go, after fairly limited experience leading anything at all (just checked my profile - my 9th lead climb of any sort), placing the gear, not the climbing itself, made it hard. My problem is lack of time to climb so I always want to push it when I'm out. But I know I'd be a far better climber if I back off the grades for a bit and get more experience at gear placement etc.

Enjoy it mate.
Howard J - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock: Those old nuts are fine when placed properly but can be tricky to get in - there's a reason why those designs have been superseded by better ones. The essence of trad isn't the moves but keeping it together when you're a long way above your last gear, struggling to get another piece into a placement which isn't as good as it looked from below. Regardless of grade, this is a very different experience from toproping or leading on bolts. If you've not done it before it may come as an unwelcome surprise.

It's far better to build up this experience on technically easy stuff where you are less likely to come to grief. It looks as if this message has already got home, otherwise I would have suggested that an essential piece of kit should be an organ donor card.

Good luck, and stay safe.

cheek to the rock - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to Howard J: Im going to try them when i top rope it first.Im thinking to place them and test my body weight on the placement with a bit of slack the top rope.and attach a small sling to the nut from my harness.If im confidant the placements good im gonna climb on it,when ive got the moves down on the t/r.Im gonna try and get 2 nuts in each placement and equalise with a sling with them being old nuts lol
SCrossley on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock: Your not a pal of DJViper by any chance are you?
cheek to the rock - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock: Hang on,no im not i dont have enough bieners probable would get 2 in anyway
ads.ukclimbing.com
cheek to the rock - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock: *wouldnt get 2 in
keith-ratcliffe on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to Howard J: Yes I agree with this view - placing trad gear is a real craft and best practised before you have to rely on it. I introduced my daughter to the art on easy climbs on Little Tryfan. I gave her the full rack and challenged her to empty it by the top - only my huge hex was left and she eventually found a place for it in the belay. After more practise she is now fully competent in placing reliable gear. I sleep easier as well. Developing skill is more important than pushing grades!
goose299 - on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to keith-ratcliffe:
> I gave her the full rack and challenged her to empty it by the top - only my huge hex was left and she eventually found a place for it in the belay.

Fantastic idea!!
xplorer on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock:

I think you may be a little nutty, no I'm serious.

Most climbers are, but that's no excuse ;-)
Ann S on 04 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock:

This is the climb you are thinking about.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=29450

The guy in pic is about half way up the route just before the crux move over the lip.

Could I suggest that before tackling this you have a look at the other side of the quarry where you will find a VD called Orange corner. I chose this as my first ever lead, onsite, as it is a corner crack and thereby offers bridging rests for gear placements. It is not a pushover despite it's humble grade and you do not appear to have it on your logbook.
cheek to the rock - on 05 Sep 2013
In reply to Ann S: I will look at it thanks,the reason i choose crooked crack is becasue i think the crack is the right size for the nuts and clogs i have.I was going to put one where the guy in the pic is or if i can a little higher,if its not in the way of the hand hold.I would need one before i go for the top but im not sure how easy it will be to place as the climb is on the right side,so it will be a left hander.Im going to try the placements on top rope first.I will have a look at the vd,s too.
jkarran - on 05 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock:

> I will look at it thanks,the reason i choose crooked crack is becasue i think the crack is the right size for the nuts and clogs i have.I was going to put one where the guy in the pic is or if i can a little higher,if its not in the way of the hand hold.I would need one before i go for the top but im not sure how easy it will be to place as the climb is on the right side,so it will be a left hander.Im going to try the placements on top rope first.I will have a look at the vd,s too.

You really want to be getting as much gear as you can in, not cherry picking routes you think you might get two nuts into. I'm not trying to p*** on your parade, there are good reasons for saying this:

It will feel seriously run out on just two or three nuts, this is really not a sensation you want or need while getting into leading. Also you fall a *lot* further on lead than you might expect or than the usual 2x distance to runner equation suggests. With two runners, even good ones you'll be barely protected (if at all) for some of the climbing.

Runners fail. They can fail because they're too weak (old, damaged or just small), the placement can fail, the placement can be poor... We mitigate this by placing redundant runners where possible and by exercising good judgement, something that is *much* easier to do from a relaxed position with some experience under your belt. While learning you just want to be getting plenty in and be getting reliable feedback on the quality of your placements.

You mentioned earlier that you have an experienced partner who's not willing to go with you for this, was that a wind-up? Your very best course of action here is to talk them into a more sensible day out, use their knowledge and gear (plus yours if you want) to start leading on some of the protectable easier routes. I seem to remember Rappel Wall was steady and protectable with slings and nuts.

jk

tlm - on 05 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock:

Have you ever thought of getting in touch with a local club? You can find them here:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/map#clubs,huts

That would give you the chance to climb with other people, who will have gear plus experience and knowledge.
xplorer on 05 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock:

This really is a little worrying,

You either need to partner up with someone with experience, join a club, get a guide for a few days or get a good few books.

Climbing isn't hard to get your head around, and it doesn't have to be dangerous. But you do seem a little naive. No offence mate
aultguish on 05 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock:
Wilton-Fest is just around the corner, hang on until then and I'm sure you'll find plenty people that you can share their rack and climb with, or even just watch other people climb this route.
Whatever you do, enjoy :-)
MischaHY - on 05 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock: Get some practice on easier routes before you even contemplate leading a VS. That said, using classic passive protection methods makes easier routes much more fun - I lead a 17m S for a warm up yesterday, using only hexes and a sling around a chockstone. Combined with the classic feel of the climbing (plenty of hand/fist jams and solid feet), it made for a massively more satisfying experience than placing a cam every 3 feet, as I've seen many people doing even on super easy grades. You can't beat a bit of passive gear!
Ann S on 05 Sep 2013
cheek to the rock - on 05 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock: Only got an hour in tonight,Top ropped crooked crack,Did it really smooth,abed back down and tried my clogs and they just dropped straight out.Had a good think about it while i was up there,And your right i dont think im ready to lead that,even if i had the gear.My mate still cant top rope it,when i tried to show him again i couldnt get it.felt great first time,flapped and couldnt see the moves second time.Going sunday and im going to dial it back and just T/R
cheek to the rock - on 05 Sep 2013
In reply to Ann S: Thinking of wilton 1 sunday but next time im in 3 i will defo have a go tp-ing it thanks
Ann S on 05 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock:

You're very welcome. :)
Pete Pozman - on 06 Sep 2013
In reply to cheek to the rock: Back off mate. Psych down. I remember helping a guy after his first VS. His shin bone was sticking out of the side of his leg. If only he'd worked up to it.

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