UKC

I've just seen on the news how Jihadists in Syria, aided by the rebels, captured some of Assad's fighters and beheaded them in a public beheading.

Now my problem wasn't with beheading people - FFS if an army has just dropped sarin gas on my community I'd cut the feckers heads off - don't get me wrong war is war.
My problem is with the anti government people who took their family down to watch.
On the news it showed a row of kids (maybe about the same age as my 7 year old daughter plus or minus a year or two) sat watching. I thought that this was the kind of thing that happened in Britain 600 years ago when they used to drown witches.

If these people want to live a medieval life style - leave them to it. Taking a 7 year old kid to watch a public beheading. F*cking savages.

E

In reply to Enty:

I ain't sure there's going to be a satisfactory consensus to this thread. But for the sake of the discussion, at what age do you think children can start going to public beheadings?

Can't say I think 7 year olds should go to beheadings either, but then my life so far has conditioned my philosophy to regard any beheading as bad. Maybe if I'd spent the last two years worrying daily for my daughter's life, culminating in a sarin gas attack, I might be inclined to feel differently, and might feel my daughter should see what happens to the people I held responsible

In reply to Enty:
Re your second sentence. I DO have a problem with people beheading people. End of.

In reply to Enty: There was a video of them executing soldiers the other day.. for sure its not some courageous freedom fighters.. horrific.

In reply to Enty:

Bad shit. But its war and these elements are basic components of that. Peoples behaviour shifts as the pressures of war shift.

I was invited to executions in afghanistan and georgia and tho i chose not to go, some went stating its their duty as a form of propaganda. Children were taken so they were indoctrinated into the tribal directive. Grim shit and the foundation for perpetuating conflict.

It wont represent every syrian tho. They need to be helped to stop this, not abandoned because of it.

In reply to andyathome:

That was slightly tongue in cheek mate.

E

In reply to ice.solo:

Good point. But how do you help change someone with a 500 year old mind set?

E

In reply to Enty:

Chop their heads off?

In reply to andyathome:

How disappointing, presumably some computer error cut off his sentence so we'll never know what it was the "End of".

In reply to Enty:
in most cases i dont think they do. syria, despite being a pariah state, isnt afghanistan or somalia, its been a modernish state for a long time.
the dark ages blood lust has arisen out of the chaos of war. 2 years ago these people i dont doubt on the whole were quite normal, but have changed from what theyve been exposed to.

whats happened is the rise of extrajudicial law. the state has failed so jihadist-types get to act out their twisted islamist fantasies and others get caught up in it willingly or otherwise (in afghanistan i saw the way people were pressured to attend these things, like a new movie, it was all about being seen to be there). its exactly what the taliban did.

what to do? uphold a better alternative. its worked in other areas, where vicious locals were curtailed by more powerful regional commanders who tow a different line. its not easy, as those regional leaders are often warlords themselves, but take it far enough up the chain and you start to get powermongers willing to do deals with international bodies out of a want for legitimacy. we are now seeing this with al-shabab, the afghan taliban, hezbollah etc, and theres a long history of it working.

its not a pretty process, but when chaos has rewritten a regions playing field its one of the few choices. it demands a very focussed process.

what makes it hard is that, as nasty as syria has become, its still in its formative stages. it hasnt coalesced into a mature conflict yet, its still highly localized. this makes 'trickle up' politics impossible. sadly in some ways foreign intervation would push this along (depending how it went).
from the start theres been renegade groups plying for international recognition, but they control little reliably. there simply hasnt been the time for the playing out of relations to settle. by comparison, afghanistan, chechnya, somalia, tajikistan had all be at it for decades.

its one thing to settle conflicts between factions, but another to reboot a system thats been so wiped out. within that process are numerous well defined stage where this sort of mob blood lust flares. the goal is to resolve the playing field before we go thru too many of those, because each builds upon the other as far as inter-group slayings go.

In reply to Enty: Public executions stopped around 150 years ago here, if they hadn't I'm sure they'd still be well attended as opinion polls suggest the public would reinstate it. Not f*cking savages, just human.

In reply to Enty:


I can't add much more to what ice solo has written above, other than to say I've actually been to Syria and can assure you that people there were certainly not "f**king savages" or that people want to "live a medieval lifestyle". The fact that millions of Syrians have left the country kind of indicates they don't want to. I found it (back in 2002) a fairly modern and reasonably tolerant country - superficially fairly similar to Turkey. They were doing everything they could to avoid the chaos of Iraq spilling into their country.

Since you can quite easily imagine beheading someone and really don't see how it's beyond the pale to imagine you'd eventually force other people do watch. Even the kids - if it's for the good of the cause.

In reply to shaun l:

If there was a public beheading in London next week and people took their kids, they would be savages too.
I might be wrong but I sense in your post, the slightest offence at the word savages.

E

In reply to Enty: I'm not offended, just pointing out that they'd do the same anywhere. Ironically, I think you're a savage because you don't condone beheadings and support the death penalty.

In reply to seankenny:

I did say higher up that comment was tongue in cheek. Also, i do know that not all Syrians are f*cking savages, just the ones who take their kids to public beheadings. Read what i put and the whole thread.
My thoughts about changing my mind are that the whole place is such a mess I'm now not bothered who wins.

E

Ps I still stand by my belief that an adult who takes a kid to a beheading is a savage.

In reply to shaun l:



That's cool because I can see a difference between removing a murdering rapist from society in a private more clinical way and chopping someone's head off in public because your political beliefs are different.

E

In reply to Enty:

Anyhow, flight had arrived. Back to work.

E

In reply to Enty:

Sorry, it was a little unclear.

If some crazy religous lunatics had taken over your patch (happened here in London a few hundred years ago) and wanted to impose orthodoxy on you at the pain of death, you might find yourself taking your kids to a public execution just to keep your family safe and under the radar. That wouldn't make them savages but people in a really horrible horrible position.



The secular, non-jihadist Syrians are probably very pleased to hear that...


People standing by their beliefs regardless of evidence is part of the problem here no?

In reply to Enty:

I tend to bang on about this, but how much difference is there between beheading people as a means of execution and the use of every day weapons in war? The end results are the same, with beheading possibly one of the more humane ways to die.

Agreed, its not pre-watershed viewing and the treatment of prisoners should prohibit summary executions. But the "horror" of a beheading is probably heightened by the less than honest depictions in the media of what our own weapons do in the battlefield.

In reply to Enty: Er, I'm confused now, so you do condone beheadings?

In reply to David Martin:

Agreed.

You could take this further and say open combat is the same just at a longer distance!

In reply to ice.solo:

Yeah. I hope these Russia US talks continue and extend to violence reduction/peace talks.

In reply to Papillon:

I believe they're trying to get something together.

Does anyone else think that the only way this can end without a lot of bloodshed is to partition the country? I just can't see the two sides cohabiting peacefully again for many many years.

In reply to Removed User:

maybe, but i see it more partitioned like somalia rather than sudan, ie rather than separate, fairly stable states, one or two stable areas with other areas uncontolled and shifting between groups. assad my well regain control of damascus, or hole up in another city and claim a new seat of power, but elsewhere its hard to see him ever having full rule again - too much blood has been shed.

thing with partitioning is it rarely goes well. usually theres mass atrocities when populations shift (syria is already a classic example from the carving up of the post-ottoman era), and then for decades theres enclaves and unrecognized states that foster unrest. true, tho, it may be a better alternative than any other going.

an issue i see also with partition is that of islamist held areas forming fundamentalist mini-states. possibly like whats happening in pakistan, these areas become backward and attractive to those with agendas unhealthy to the larger region.

In reply to ice.solo:

Yes, I don't disagree with any of that but surely this where the UN can play a role by attempting to ensure that a transition is made as peacefully as possible. I think it would be essential that some sort of agreement is made between the two sides first. How did the partition of Cyprus unfold? From what I remember it was relatively bloodless.


Regarding Islamist mini states. I wonder if the Syrian people would really put up with foreign fundamentalists telling them how to live in their own country.

No good solutions though, only some may be less bad than others.

In reply to Enty: It's a bit like letting kids watch Jeremy Kyle.

In reply to shaun l:

Ok just to clear things up once and for all. No I don't condone beheadings. Especially public ones with kids watching - this is what shocked me on the news last night.

However, I can see a limited case for the death penalty in as humane way as possible. Vacuum chamber or lethal injection. Paerticulary for cases like April Jones and the Indian woman on the bus. I say that more so as the father of a little girl.

I don't really want to argue about the difference between the beheadings on the news last night and a muredering rapist getting a lethal injection. I can see a difference maybe some people can't.

E

In reply to David Martin:

I know what weapons do in the battle field. I can also see the difference between a soldier joining up, then knowingly going into battle and getting horrendously maimed or killed by some horrible weapon and a summary execution like a beheading. But then we're off on the Geneva convention thread again.

E

In reply to Removed User:

UN maybe, but it grinds slowly and they need a mandate to even start, which can be vetoed by the security council and weve just sat thru all that. even something like no fly zones and sanctuary zones are hard to enforce over a scape as complex as what syria has become. unlike iraq and the balkans (sort of), things are not very defined for most of it. the kurds would do ok, but partitioning ideologies more so than ethnic groups is complex.

cyprus was one of the better partitions - but theres been many more that have been the darkest moments of humanity. cyprus was between 2 modern recognized states, with formal militaries over defined territories. syria lacks many of those elements.

islamist enclaves: i can see it. they need not be foreign at all, as we are already seeing jihadist groups taking hold. like what exists elsewhere, there may be locals with a minority of foreign instigators not unlike what we see in lebanon, iraq and afghanistan.
without a functioning state (of any sort) its very difficult to intervene to protect populations within syrias borders. with sovereignty gone, one set of rules goes and others initiate.

In reply to Enty:

While they are in the midst of war, its unsurprising though that more immediate forms of justice and retribution occur. I think we'd all like those in charge to be the sorts who like Mozart and listen to Gardeners Question Time, but those are hardly the types who are going to be calling the shots in the midst of a civil war.

I wouldn't hold a beheading against the Syrians, especially from the relative safety and civility of peacetime England.

In reply to David Martin:

After a hard long think about it neither would I to be honest. I draw the line at taking kids to watch though.

E

In reply to David Martin:


Exactly the same people who listen to Mozart and Gardner's Question Time I would of thought. Sunday school teachers and good muslims. Normal people.

D

In reply to Enty:

On this site go to photos 49&51

http://withoutsanctuary.org/main.html

Nice wee site that shows you the real America,there are plenty more photos from the 50's showing smiling kids at the lynching of a Black,lovely country...really lovely!

You are of course completely correct about the Islamic fundamentalists wanting to show kids beheadings,it's quite normal in the lovely Saudi Dictatorship that we support and America props up,just one fundamentalist country to another,putting the fun into fundamentalism.

In reply to Removed User:

I can't see a partition working at all. I would prefer to see it ending up something like Lebanon, which isn't great but there is a political role for former terrorists rather like we have in N Ireland. And it's a democracy (at least a bit). Tho I'm happy for someone with more knowledge of Lebanon to point out why this is a bad idea...

In reply to Gudrun:

this is your most random useless post yet...
When did the US ever deny their history of racist abuse. Its why they hold people like MLK so dearly.

I'm not saying there still isn't racism but this is hugely historic.

In reply to Enty: Fair enough, I was just pointing out that although these events are savage most people would watch whatever country they're from. FWIW I'm not against capital punishment on moral grounds simply because of miscarriages of justice.

Personally I think we should leave them to it, not because I don't care but because I think we will simply make things worse and inevitably support which ever

In reply to Enty: side best serves our purposes. I do hope we can do something to help the civvies though.

In reply to IainRUK:


Remind me of the black prison population again.

I know you live in the current fascist heartland and feel compelled to support these monsters but don't try and pull your metaphorical blanket over my head.

In reply to Gudrun: I know.. but there's also class issues. But that is a long way from public beheadings watched by kids. You showed clips of the 'real america' almost all pics were from 1910.. I saw one from 1960..so it wasn't the real america.

How the hell did I offer any support. As usual.. twist and manipulate.

You showed totally unneeded images to back up an argument which you obviously had sod all support for.. hence why go back 100 years..

In reply to Enty:


So, f*ck the Geneva Convention, then? In which case using chemical weapons is also fine?

It has to be made absolutely clear that war crimes committed in Syria will be pursued, dispassionately, but relentlessly, and that there will be no exception.

In reply to IainRUK:

You saw one from 1960.

'totally unneeded images'

I agree in wishing these horrific and repugnant pictures of life in the rascist parts of the US didn't exist.

But.

Contrary to your superficial analysis,they are needy (to African American if not white commentators) in evaluating deeply unpleasant and racist but realistic truths about American class war.

In reply to Gudrun: So 1960... 53 years ago.. before the human rights movement. Look there are still issues in the US, we know that, so look for stuff say in the last decade. Its not good, but a shed load better than many places... or have you not been there?

In reply to Dominion:


But all of our and the hundreds of US empires war crimes...................................................................................................................................................................................?????????????

In reply to Gudrun:

No, thats not the truth, that was the truth. Not now. They did exist, now don't. I'm not saying race crime doesn't exist but not mass lynchings, mock courts.

Come on be sensible. The US isn't perfect, but Powell reckons he'd not have made it so high in the UK as he thinks the UK is more racist institutionally. The problem with the US is the black/poor association, so its hard to disconnect causation and correlation. But look at areas like Camden, NJ, white or black those kids are screwed from birth. Thats not a race issue.

In reply to Gudrun: According to you.. not by all law experts.. the iraq war itself was fiercely debated. It wasn't clear at all.

In reply to Gudrun:

I say it again.

It has to be made absolutely clear that war crimes committed in Syria will be pursued, dispassionately, but relentlessly, and that there will be no exception.

In reply to IainRUK:

no Ian,i could not go to such a f'in fascist f*ckland,and even if i was gifted a three week stay in some f'in posh Manhatten penthouse f'in halfwit view to die for suite!

Do you know what?

You can stick the f'in racist US and all it f'in stands for up your arse!

In reply to Gudrun: What a lovely person.. so get your impressions from the US via 100 year old pictures..

Here's what france is like.. https://www.google.de/search?q=1910+france&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv...


sod going to china.. this is it.. https://www.google.de/search?q=1910+france&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv...

FFS..

In reply to Dominion:

But they wont, without exception. Russia will go out of its way to ensure that wont happen.
War is war, especially civil war.

In reply to IainRUK:Come on be sensible. The US isn't perfect, but Powell reckons

youtube.com/watch?v=znQe9nUKzvQ&

'i'm a field negro !'

In reply to IainRUK:

Don't be silly, Iain, Gudrun doesn't need to leave the UK to pronounce on conditions in countries she has never visited.

In reply to Gudrun: Travel by youtube.. here's another great resource.. wikipedia.org

All I'm saying.. is as travelled.. experienced.. I don't think the US is that much more racist than the UK. In fact I think Eastern Germany/Poland and much of eastern europe is far more openly racist.

But you cannot really class the US as one country. I imagine china is similar. Its like classing Europe as one. The South West states are so different due to the people and environment, immigrant issues, than say Boston, or the New England area.

Portland, OR is incomparable to the flyover states. And I've not seen it all but spent weeks/months at a time in TX, Az, Me, Ma, Va, OK and also visited many of their surrounding states. And its all so different. Much like Europe.

In reply to off-duty:

And that applies to all the many countries you scream an opinion on but have only seen on a map.

In reply to Gudrun: So you are saying thats valid?

In reply to Gudrun: You can judge a country by 100 year old photos?

In reply to IainRUK:
So you try to denounce the works of a great man by the media in which he is shown,how pathetic!

When do you get your Fascist sorry US citizenship ?

You will make a perfect candidate!

UK to US no difference but for some US cock sucking!

Full marks!

In reply to Gudrun:

You serious?

E

In reply to IainRUK:

I also find it a bit tiresome when people trot out the old "Well the USA are the only country to have ever used Nukes in anger".... like it's relevant to what's happening now.

Weak argument Gudrun I'm afraid showing lynchings form the 50's.
Turned into a good thread though. Thanks people.

E

In reply to Gudrun:

I love how your only form of defense is attack. Personally I find that international travel, and more importantly, spending a considerable amount of time in individual countries gives you a better perspective on society, not just within the UK.

You haven't visited America though, have you? Or Syria. Or anywhere else in the middle east.
Or in fact any of the communist/socialist utopias you profess to love - like Czechoslovakia or Chile?

And just to state the obvious - I'm not naming any countries here that I haven't spent any time in.

In reply to off-duty:

I should have known an anti-rascist comment would insight the ire of on-duty, hahahaha!

In reply to off-duty:

Ooh fancy that i have been to quite a few f the former Communist peace camps.ie.Russia,CZech Repupublic,slovakia,E.Germany,etc etc
that you speak of !



sorry as ever.......to spoil your wee fascist dream

hahhaha

In reply to Gudrun:

As I said - attack being your best/only form of defense.

You appear to be the only person flinging around racist comments - Powell as a "field negro". That's pretty poor, even for you.

In reply to Enty:

Weak argument!

Whereas your arguement is unadulterated shit!

But good effort...for you anyway!

In reply to off-duty:

Hahaha!

But it's true!

Give me an arguement and not your usual right-wing i wear a tit on my head pish !

gimme something(arguement) to get my teeth into and i'll rip it to shreddeeeees!

In reply to Gudrun: well watch football.. Heskey? who abused him? Its all on line.. go to your favourite youtube.. worst area in Germany for racism? Rostock..

In reply to Enty:

At best most were 1910 or earlier..

In reply to Gudrun: How can I be a candidate? Have some US knowledge..

Of course I aim to move to the US. I love the place. I've lived in England, Wales, Scotland, NZ, Germany and many many months in the US. For me I love the US.

In reply to Gudrun:
Comrade Mary Doll, You support police states, and dictators who murder their own kids,

http://www.channel4.com/news/syria-al-bayda-massacre-war-crime-video

In reply to IainRUK:

You don't say!

do you spit or swallow?

In reply to Gudrun:

I imagine you have the same racist views on Obama, Condoleeza Rice, Clarence Thomas (just to name a few successful African-American political figures)

In reply to dek:

and your support of your beloved and adored Israel dek!

you are jewish right?

In reply to Gudrun: Good argument.. so no actual comeback. Go there and judge. I'd go to Russia, anywhere safe tbh. I like experiencing new areas, its why I move around.. you just read wiki..

In reply to off-duty:

Oh yawn!
look take the tit off your head!

Oh it's part of it ! shit sorry i didn't know!

So Malky X is a rascist!

give it your best shot...i'll answer in in my sleep ...yawn!

In reply to Gudrun:
Naw Doll, not a 'Joo' but what's that got to do with your 'argument''?! Just tell us if you're smoking yet crack pipe , as you're spouting more shite than normal?

In reply to IainRUK:

This time in English

In reply to Gudrun:

Hmm, random insults. No actual answers.
Other than the fact that clearly you DO believe that any successful black political figure must be a "field negro".

As usual your inability to conduct any form of civilised discussion is tedious and childish.

I'm out.

In reply to dek:

Ah i could have sworn you were,so just a Muslim hater then and no i've ran out of crack and am now smoking an exhaust pipe.But even if i was taking all the drugs known to man combined i would still make mince-meat out of you and your childlike comments.

In reply to Gudrun: did you watch the video? how can you condone that? None of us condone the rebels work which is as bad. This just has to stop. You seem to need to go either or..

In reply to Gudrun: I will travel.. you won't. You judge by wikipedia. Answer my last question and stop firing defensive questions.

In reply to Gudrun:

wow.. jesus.. you need to lay off that shit.. calling others for making childlike comments.. fook me..

In reply to off-duty:

is *your* answer that Malky X is a racist like you made out then?

And yes some(as in CR and CP as well as BO) successful African Americans do and i mean do not represent the black population but the rich white minority that you for one(inthe UK) ....protects!

In reply to Gudrun:
Oh dear Mary Doll, that's hard tae 'swallow' you've still to make mincemeat out of a single poster here, admit it, you're just a Tory diehard, trolling.

In reply to IainRUK:

Seriously WTF?
I wont travel WTF?
i judge by Wiki WTF?
What Question?and stop F'in about!

In reply to IainRUK:

Imaging getting stuck in a lift with Shona/Nae/Gudrun?!

In reply to dek:

what was it ?

12 cans for the price of 6 tonight and you have dun in 9 b4 thinking i know wot i'll post some f'd up vacuous drunken sadshit b4 i go and piss the bed?

In reply to Gudrun:

Mary Doll, acting Gallus, doesn't mean you're not still as nutty as a squirrel shit.

In reply to Gudrun: Wow Gundrun! you really are the most aggressive, ignorant and out of touch twit that ever posted on this site. Reading your pathetic childlike arguments gets more painful every time. For the record, I couldn't be more anti of most US foreign policy, but your hate filled bile does nothing but persuade me maybe i need to reconsider. Ben

In reply to Enty:

For a serious answer, have a look at the peace process in Ulster.