In reply to gurumed:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
It seems more like you want this route to remain an E4, rather than "just a 6c" for the satisfaction of your own ego.
> Why does he want the route to remain without bolts? The answer is quite simple; vanity.
I sounds to me quite different.
Robert does come across rather angry, while being protectionist. But you come across as rather selfish.
Your argument seems to be:
"I don't feel safe on the route as an E4, therefore i want it to be bolted, so I climb the route within my personal comfort zone."
While Roberts seems to be:
"Arrgggghhhhhh! Stop sticking bolts in Trad routes you ar*e!"
I think Robert you do need to relax a bit, your anger really isn't helping you here much, and Gurumed, can i suggest that its ok to just accept that there are some routes you might never get to climb, theres plenty of routes i would love to do, some maybe i'll be good/strong/insane enough to get up one day, others i never will. Thats fine with me.
Both of you agree your just both too polarized in your views here.
Regardless of the argument between the two of you, i've just seen that the route in question is a 2 star Trad route. With, from what i can gather from the previous thread, unclimbed rock around it in the quarry.
Can i first ask why a two star trad route should be bolted when there is room around it to create new f6c sport routes on the blank space around it?
I can understand it the route had become dangerous or changed somewhat due to rockfall etc, but seems like the only problem was caused by an oversight in management, which has, with the lower-off in place, been managed in the best comprise possible to protect what seems to be an almost-classic judging by the 2 stars.
I'd go as far as saying that the route with bolts in place (and all retro-bolted routes in fact) automatically loses whatever stars it has.
Simply put, the nature of the route is changed. I personally have to agree with Robert here. a lower off maintains it an as E4 6a**, whereas with bolts, it IS 'just another 6c' sport route in a quarry. I'd say the head game of placing thin protection on 6a UK tech and the head game of linking 6c french moves are totally different beasts. As i say, the very 'feel' of the route has totally changed.
Sounds like there is more space in the quarry, and looking at the Logbook page on here the Trad does outweigh the Sport currently, surely a better solution would be focusing everyone energy on bolting totally fresh lines while maintaining the Trad that exists?
Seems to be the best balance all round really, not just in this quarry, but pretty much everywhere.
I guess that reads as i'm on the side of the "Protectors of Trad", but i am supportive for the establishing of routes of all kinds, Sport/Trad/Bouldering etc, as long as any existing routes/problems are respected, especially starred ones.
Chasing the tick is fun, but so is Climbing itself quite frankly. Shouldn't be all be working on raising our game to the challenge of the climbs level rather than lowering it to ours?
And having lots of fun in the process of course.
(I am aware the last bit makes me sound like some kind of rock-hugging hippy...)