/ New Goretex Pro Membrane.

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Oceanic - on 22 Sep 2013
Gore say that they have made the new Goretex Pro fabric upto 28% more breathable than the previous generation of Goretex fabrics. Apparently they have done this by making the membrane entirely from ePTFE.

Does anyone know any more about this? I'm guessing that they have found a way to do without the PU inner layer?
AdCo82 on 22 Sep 2013
In reply to Oceanic:

Yes a layer has been removed. The coats are a lot lighter and feel thinner.

What else would you like to know? I've tested one of the Mountain Equipment jackets and they are nice.

AT
Oceanic - on 22 Sep 2013
In reply to An Triubhas:

> What else would you like to know?


If they've taken away the PU layer, what prevents the ePTFE from being damaged by sweat?

Have they taken the approach used by Event and lined the pores with an oleophobic chemical? If so, does this mean that Goretex Pro is now air permeable?
ciaran1999 - on 22 Sep 2013
In reply to Oceanic:

I had some training in the new Gore too. Gore keep their lips pretty sealed about the exact technologies and only really mentioned that the membrane was now multi-layer ePTFE. I did question them when they stated the jackets were now designed to last for two hundred days of 'hard mountain use'. I thought that an odd thing to specify given that the jackets are designed for guides, alpinists and back-country skiing. The trainer was pretty sharp in his reply and said guides replace their jackets every season anyway.

Maybe the new jackets aren't designed to last as long and so don't require as durable a membrane? Am pretty curious about this myself so will keep an eye for any other info
newhey - on 22 Sep 2013
In reply to Oceanic:

Forget goretex or event. My Rab neo stretch is the only thing that has ever worked. Amazing fabric but not promoted by one of the big companies.
Gob_Stopper on 22 Sep 2013
In reply to ciaran1999:

If they're quoting 200 days hard use then that'll put off the vast majority of UK punters. FWIW I think eVent is the better fabric in my experience. Not tried neoshell though.
Timmd on 22 Sep 2013
In reply to ciaran1999:
> (In reply to Oceanic)
>
> I had some training in the new Gore too. Gore keep their lips pretty sealed about the exact technologies and only really mentioned that the membrane was now multi-layer ePTFE. I did question them when they stated the jackets were now designed to last for two hundred days of 'hard mountain use'. I thought that an odd thing to specify given that the jackets are designed for guides, alpinists and back-country skiing. The trainer was pretty sharp in his reply and said guides replace their jackets every season anyway.
>
> Maybe the new jackets aren't designed to last as long and so don't require as durable a membrane? Am pretty curious about this myself so will keep an eye for any other info

That's very interesting. I'd guess they've been given that lifespan because they don't last as long because of the membrane.
Morgan Woods - on 22 Sep 2013
In reply to Gob_Stopper:
> (In reply to ciaran1999)
>
> If they're quoting 200 days hard use then that'll put off the vast majority of UK punters. FWIW I think eVent is the better fabric in my experience. Not tried neoshell though.

I've prob done about 4 years or 120 days of hard use in my old proshell (Arcteryx Beta AR) and it's still going strong. I would be happy to replace it after about the same again if I had to.
Siward on 23 Sep 2013
In reply to ciaran1999:
> (In reply to Oceanic)
>
> they stated the jackets were now designed to last for two hundred days of 'hard mountain use'.

Just goes to show what drives the faster, lighter, stronger zeitgeist- frequent replacement, low durability, better suited to the high street than the mountains. Is that unfair? Also has to be borne in mind that these sort of jackets aren't repairable in any meaningful sense of the word.
ScraggyGoat on 23 Sep 2013
If they are honest and tell us all that it only last 200 days, that one winter chimney thrutch, or one tumble that its likely shredded. Plus they provide more durable alternatives, I have no complaints.

But if they scream from the roof tops that its the best thing since sliced bread, that its everything that you could ever want in one package; lightweight, tough and durable, then they deserve to get a slagging..........
ciaran1999 - on 23 Sep 2013
In reply to Oceanic:

Quite a good link here with most of the information we got and a review. Interestingly though, while this review also states 200 days of hard use I cannot find it in any of the literature (I haven't looked all that hard to be fair though).

http://www.gearinstitute.com/getschooled/item/gore-tex-launches-new-pro-shell

To be fair to Gore-tex the new jackets are great in comparison with older membranes, but I think its pretty interesting how they seem to be moving away from their old Guaranteed for life towards this very finite proclamation. Hard to know what to expect these days with everything getting so light. I've just went through a lightweight Montane Event jacket in six months mostly just cycling in and out of work with it. I'd quite like to try a Neoshell these days. Still yet to hear any complaints about them.
Oceanic - on 23 Sep 2013
In reply to ciaran1999:

If I could buy a jacket (with modern styling) made from the same fabric that my 1980s Berghaus Extrem jacket was made from, I would buy it, despite the breathability being less than the modern iterations of Goretex.
GrendeI on 23 Sep 2013
In reply to ciaran1999: Stating the amount of days use is absolutely no new thing and has very little to do with the just the membrane.

Long ago Arc'teryx stated in a video that their new pro-shell jackets will withstand 60-80 days of hard use, which at the time was apparently more than double that of other brands standards.

That was 2009/10 or something. The big factor now is the face fabrics and liners, the materials that are coming out are much much better, allowing for membranes that are thinner with less requirement for PU barriers that are detrimental to breathability.

I seriously doubt the 200 day quota has anything to do with the membrane on its own. Normally it defines the amount of use a garment can undergo without losing core properties or beginning to fail in any way, without receiving proper care. Generally due to wetting out, caused by abrasion of the fabric or contamination by oils or other substances that will cause water to soak in.
Oceanic - on 23 Sep 2013
In reply to GrendeI:

Original Goretex had serious durability problems due to using a membrane made entirely from ePTFE, so I think discussion of the durability of the membrane is valid, given that Gore has decided to return to a membrane made solely from ePTFE.
ciaran1999 - on 23 Sep 2013
In reply to GrendeI:

Are you suggesting that it is not possible to reproof a coat after two hundreds days? Aside from rips and tears I have never worn through either a liner or a face fabric. This would suggest that the usable life-time of a gore-tex jacket is based more around the life-time of the waterproof membrane than that of its other parts.
GrendeI on 23 Sep 2013
In reply to Oceanic:
> (In reply to GrendeI)

> Original Goretex had serious durability problems due to using a membrane made entirely from ePTFE,

Yes, but most of those were due to de-lamination of the membrane from face and inner fabrics due to contamination by dirt, bodily grease, oils etc or due to leakage caused by impregnated dirt.

> so I think discussion of the durability of the membrane is valid, given that Gore has decided to return to a membrane made solely from ePTFE.

Depends what you interpret as membrane durability, they're pretty sturdy things, and durable in their own right. Its a porous material that fails when it becomes impregnated with contaminants (eVent suffers terribly from this and is ePTFE). I don't know if they have found a way to protect the membrane structure, eVent was supposed to have done this (and that clearly didn't work). The only way to protect an open pore membrane is by increasing the performance of the materials it is sandwiched between and the quality of water repellency of fabric coatings.

If discussing membrane durability you are essentially discussing what will make it fail. And apart from catastrophic tearing or abrasion, the only issues will lie in factory construction failure or contamination though use. Thus keeping it clean and well maintained will in turn keep it waterproof and breathable and thus inevitably durable.
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GrendeI on 23 Sep 2013
In reply to ciaran1999: No, I mean that when manufacturers say the jacket will last for 200 days use, this means that there will be no detriment to the garments performance during this time, such as leakage or fabrics de laminating from the membrane itself without requiring care. All WP/B membrane fabrics will work better if well maintained, properly cleaned and re-proofed.

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