UKC

After the discussion in the thread about lethal rhymes...

I'm struggling to think of a situation in which the leader needs to be completely disconnected from their belayer.

In both sport and trad, single and multipitch, if the leader wants to be lowered then the belayer can pay out enough slack for the leader to do his ropework, and if the belayer will second the route then they can be tied in before the leader sets off (hence still anchoring the end of the rope after the belay plate is removed).

The only scenario I can think of where the belayer would hear "safe" and remove themselves from the rope is if they didn't want to second the route, and the leader wanted to abseil instead of being lowered. This can't be a very common occurrence shurely?

Why then do people keep falling off routes due to belayer miscommunication?

In reply to jalien:

I think the call "OK" has played a part in a few ground falls.

In reply to jalien:

I agree with your single pitch lowering scenario, but if there is no lowering, usually a big pile of slack needs to be taken in, are you suggesting that gets passed through the plate?

Tying in at the bottom is good practice, but that's obviously nothing to do with belaying, and it obviously won't always save you if the route is short.

In reply to jalien:

scenario:

Your partner leads a 15m pitch on a 60m rope, they get to the top, set up an anchor and tie in to that, they are now safe. They still need to bring up 45m of rope (minus anchorage rope) before they can belay you. Now you could pay all of that through a belay device, but that is a huge amount of work. Calling safe means they can release the rope from their belay device and you can pull it up at your own will.

In reply to BStar:

Ok, in that case even if the second is tied in to the rope, then the slack means that the leader would hit the deck if they fell off.

In reply to jalien:

I don't think you can lump sport and trad into the same scenario. In trad once the leader has shouted "safe" he/she should be belayed to the stance and independent of any belay protection by from the second. The second needs to take off their belay in order to start seconding the pitch.

Sport is a different scenario where the leader is re-arranging the system in anticipation of being lowered off. It is in isprocess that there is the greatest potential for misunderstanding between the leader and belayer.

In reply to jalien:

Why would they fall off?

E

In reply to jalien:

But because the leader is anchored on at the top it means the leader is safe, the second is either on the ground or anchored on themselves. Both achors are independent with a whole load of excess rope between them. The leader brings up the excess rope until it's tight on the lower climber, they then take ther anchor out and start climbing.

In reply to Trangia:

I weuld add that when seconding multi pitch I tend to carry on keeping the leader belayed even after they have shouted "safe" and only start to dismantle the belay when they shout "climb when you're ready". There is then a delay whist I undo this until I shout "climbing" and start to climb.

In reply to Enty:

Because they were expecting to be lowered, but got taken off.

In reply to Trangia:
>

Most of the people I climb with shout 'safe' when they at the top of the crag (single-pitch) but before they have belayed. Not the 'modern' way of doing things, but we all tend work on the principle that we are unlikely to fall off the top of the cliff.

Multi-pitch, you keep them on until they let you know they are attached. If in doubt, pay out a metre of slack and put an overhand knot in it - you can both get on with stuff, but they are still belayed.

In sport we would never take the leader off (why would you?), unless it was multi-pitch and it was clear they had belayed.


Chris

In reply to lowersharpnose:

Yeah, I think the US style (and air traffic control style) of repeating the instruction back, e.g. "climbing"..."climb on" is safer, as then you know what the "OK" is for and you could shout "stop" or similar if it was heard to be the wrong instruction.

Neil

In reply to jalien: Whenever my 'phone rings in my rucksack and I can't reach it.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I don't do much single pitch trad, the majority is multi pitch, hence I like to stick to the tried and trusted trad calls. The sequence of calls between leader and second is also important because it's often difficult, sometimes impossible to hear in wind. So I have tended to continue this discipline into the rarer occasions when I climb single pitch.

I prefer to be a live old dinasaur than an extinct one!

In reply to Jonny2vests:

I was asking relative to Bstar's scenario. The leaded isn't being lowered they are bringing the second up.

E

In reply to Enty:

Yes. Jalien mixed up staying on belay with being tied on in the OP, which has confused things.

In reply to jalien:

I don't get this. If the leader shouts 'safe' that tends to mean they're safe. What's wrong with taking them off belay? It's probably one of the main reasons they shouted it in the first place.

If you're about to be lowered, why shout 'safe'? Just attach yourself, pull up some slack, rethread, shout or look down for confirmation, then lower off!

In reply to jalien:

Equally if you're about to lower someone why take them off belay?! Makes no sense at all.