/ Mens WC Road Race

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andy guppy - on 29 Sep 2013
British team WTF..........it was cold and raining so we all went back to the bus!!!
Need to grow a pair and follow the rules......especially Rule 5
Guppy
JamButty - on 29 Sep 2013
In reply to andy guppy: Yep tuned in for the last 2 hrs to find they'd all buggered off. Didn't see the events earlier, but in the interviews they just said it wasn't their day and the weather was crap.
Poor show I think Brits!
tim000 - on 29 Sep 2013
In reply to andy guppy: not much point in flogging yourself in those condition if you miss the split . find it amazing that not one of the 8 GB team managed to make the front bunch though.
woolsack - on 29 Sep 2013
In reply to andy guppy:
> British team WTF..........it was cold and raining so we all went back to the bus!!!
> Need to grow a pair and follow the rules......especially Rule 5
> Guppy

I don't blame them. Looking at the crashes, if you've no hope of winning and a good chance of giving yourself a huge setback to the winter training if you stack why not be sensible?
Byronius Maximus - on 29 Sep 2013
In reply to andy guppy:

Froome is way too skinny to have much of a chance of thriving in those kind of condition, it looked pretty brutal. Given that he was the team's best shot at the win and had missed the selection, it's hard to blame them for pulling out.

*spoilers*


Great riding by Costa to win though, letting Nibali wear himself out chasing and then knowing that Valverde wouldn't chase his team mate at the end. A great finish to a tough race.
Escher - on 29 Sep 2013
In reply to Byronius Maximus:
> (In reply to andy guppy)
>
> Froome is way too skinny to have much of a chance of thriving in those kind of condition, it look
>
> *spoilers*
>
>
> Great riding by Costa to win though, letting Nibali wear himself out chasing and then knowing that Valverde wouldn't chase his team mate at the end. A great finish to a tough race.

*yet more spoilers - look away now*

Still, should've been Purito's race. If Piti hadn't sat in when Jrod was caught and counter attacked as a good team mate would have done then one or other of them would have taken it. With it likely being Jrod. But instead Valverde sat in the wheels as usual not sure when to make his move. Costa showed the master of sucking how to really suck. Valverde was too busy thinking of himself to do anything decisive, at least Purito attacked and attacked, he deserved the win. I realise that you've got to get across the line first but those that have panache have the edge. Gilberts attack last year had that. Still at least Piti didnt get it, that would have been like the Olympic RR. The final was good but there was a lot of preamble to get there. The womens race was a better spectacle. But that's one day races for you. Bring on the spring classics!
kevin stephens - on 29 Sep 2013
In reply to Escher: Where was it shown on TV? Any chance of repeats or downloads?
Enty - on 29 Sep 2013
In reply to andy guppy:

Totally agree. Brailsford needs to add the number 5 to his magnificent numbers game.
Jill douglass was interviewing G and Froome and they were saying c'est la vie that's what happens in weather like this. I wonder if Cancellara or Gilbert would have given the same interview? No f*cking chance.
Everyone slags the Spanish for being pathetic when the going gets tough. Well they had 2 in the mix + Costa.
Come on DB - you've got the results by numbers, now give us some old fasioned passion. Sooner rather than later before the love affair ends.

E
Enty - on 29 Sep 2013
In reply to kevin stephens:

BBC2 live all afternoon.

E
kevin stephens - on 29 Sep 2013
In reply to Enty:
bugger! Missed it and no replays
HughM - on 29 Sep 2013
In reply to Enty:

For me, the most annoying thing was how they wasted so much energy leading the peloton for the first 100km. Utterly pointless. It left Froome completely isolated. If a couple of team mates could have stayed with him for the first 3 laps until the Italians eased up, he might have made it to the end (although he never had any chance of wining anyway).

As for Wiggins....
johnj on 29 Sep 2013 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
In reply to andy guppy:

They did as well as they could given the situation presented to them, that's bike racing so easy to get dropped.
johnj on 29 Sep 2013 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
In reply to HughM:
> (In reply to Enty)
>
> For me, the most annoying thing was how they wasted so much energy leading the peloton for the first 100km. Utterly pointless. It left Froome completely isolated. If a couple of team mates could have stayed with him for the first 3 laps until the Italians eased up, he might have made it to the end (although he never had any chance of wining anyway).
>


I agree the tactics did seem very naÔve.
Enty - on 29 Sep 2013
In reply to johnj:
> (In reply to andy guppy)
>
> They did as well as they could given the situation presented to them, that's bike racing so easy to get dropped.

For the last hour there were lots of riders in that bunch of 50 who shouldn't have been there because on paper they didn't have the numbers. BUT THEY WERE F*CKING THERE.

E
Enty - on 29 Sep 2013
In reply to andy guppy:

Froome - It's only the worlds and it was raining. What was G talking about when he said oh the rain didn't suit Brad?

WTF

Pathetic.

E
johnj on 29 Sep 2013 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
In reply to Enty:

That's because they were in the right place at the right time, just the way that it works sometimes.
Enty - on 29 Sep 2013
In reply to johnj:
> (In reply to Enty)
>
> That's because they were in the right place at the right time, just the way that it works sometimes.


Right palce at the right time at The Worlds? You're joking? Coincidence that 9 Italians and no Brits at the right palce at the right time?

E
johnj on 29 Sep 2013 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
In reply to Enty:

Yeah the way the course bottlenecked in key places ment you needed to make the cut, the British didn't read the race and went off the back, the Italians pulled their share like the brits did early on and still got nothing, such is life.
Mike Highbury - on 29 Sep 2013
In reply to andy guppy:
> British team WTF..........it was cold and raining so we all went back to the bus!!!
> Need to grow a pair and follow the rules......especially Rule 5
> Guppy

The Brits do or, better, Brailsford does racing by numbers just not that number.
steev on 29 Sep 2013
In reply to andy guppy:

I thought the team had their bikes stolen? Just so happened to be during the race is all.
abr1966 - on 29 Sep 2013
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to andy guppy)
>
> Froome - It's only the worlds and it was raining. What was G talking about when he said oh the rain didn't suit Brad?
>
> WTF
>
> Pathetic.
>
> E

+1, seemed a poor effort to me and given up too easily.......they were riding for their country!!
Minneconjou Sioux - on 30 Sep 2013
In reply to HughM:
> (In reply to Enty)
>
>> As for Wiggins....

Well, he'd already done his job in the ITT, wasn't ever going to win this one, hates the rain and its the last race of the season. Not sure that grit and determination would be worth much under those circumstances....

...But Froome was supposed to be up for this although he looked f**ked on the TTT and did nothing in Canada the week before.....

Still very disappointing
Glyno - on 30 Sep 2013
In reply to kevin stephens:
> (In reply to Enty)
> bugger! Missed it and no replays


http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03c6lh9/Cycling_World_Road_Championships_2013_29_09_2013/
Jamie Abbott - on 30 Sep 2013
In reply to andy guppy: I'm guessing if it was a point-to-point race they'd have been less guys drop out; it's surely going to be more tempting to throw in the towel when you pass close to the team bus each lap!

Cheers,
Jamie
woolsack - on 30 Sep 2013
In reply to andy guppy: Looks like it was a fantastic experience for riders judging by this footage!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOl2OPjewOE
Minneconjou Sioux - on 30 Sep 2013
In reply to woolsack:

Excellent bit of footage though.
John Rushby - on 30 Sep 2013
In reply to Enty:

Do you think part of the problem was that even though most of the team comprised Sky riders, they brought personal issues with Froome to the fore?

Cav even though he rides for another team is always going to be an exception, he seems to rise above all that and would race his own shadow anyway.
stewieatb on 30 Sep 2013
In reply to andy guppy:

Did anyone else notice that Rodriguez 'finished' at the first sponsor's banner on the road, rather than the actual finish line? I think he would have lost anyway, but a bloody stupid mistake.
andy guppy - on 30 Sep 2013
Dave Kerr - on 30 Sep 2013
In reply to stewieatb:
> (In reply to andy guppy)
>
> Did anyone else notice that Rodriguez 'finished' at the first sponsor's banner on the road, rather than the actual finish line? I think he would have lost anyway, but a bloody stupid mistake.

I thought he just sat up.

Rui Costa is a bit of a surprise but not a total wildcard. It was a properly tactical battle on that last lap and I really feel for Joaquim 'always the bridesmaid' RodrŪguez.
Dave Kerr - on 30 Sep 2013
In reply to andy guppy:

Don't get me wrong, I love Brad but...

I wonder if those folks talking about Brad reinventing himself as a classics rider were watching?

What's the opposite of flahute?
paget - on 30 Sep 2013
In reply to andy guppy: I think it's easier said than done. We don't have massive depth riders available with a winning record, or history as a country with one day classics. Which essentially this was.
The riders we fielded aren't successful specialists in this type of race, but who else would you field? We don't have any classic winners, unless you pull Hoban out of retirement!
Top athletes especially cyclists know when it's going well or not, should they risk their livings when the result is inevitable for them?
I'm sure some of the other post writers are on here are race winning cyclists at a top level, so I'm surprised there so critical.
abr1966 - on 30 Sep 2013
In reply to paget: i agree in part but what icouldn't settle with was that they were not riding for their team but representing their country...
Minneconjou Sioux - on 30 Sep 2013
In reply to Dave Kerr:
> (In reply to andy guppy)
>
> Don't get me wrong, I love Brad but...
>
> I wonder if those folks talking about Brad reinventing himself as a classics rider were watching?
>
> What's the opposite of flahute?

But it is clear that Brad can't go down hill in the rain. That is a head issue and needs a little more work than simply suggesting that he grow a pair.
Dave Kerr - on 30 Sep 2013
In reply to Minneconjou Sioux:
> (In reply to Dave Kerr)
> [...]
>
> But it is clear that Brad can't go down hill in the rain. That is a head issue and needs a little more work than simply suggesting that he grow a pair.

That's a different issue altogether. My point was directed at those who thought he could become a classics rider. The classics require just such grit and determination in the face of adversity as he failed to demonstrate on Sunday.

And again I add that I think he is an awesome rider. Just not that kind of awesome.
Arms Cliff - on 30 Sep 2013
In reply to abr1966:
> (In reply to paget) i agree in part but what icouldn't settle with was that they were not riding for their team but representing their country...

Surely that's the point - why would they want to risk their livelihood for the year with their team just for one day representing their country. What if Froome had finished in 73rd or something but Thomas and Wiggins had put themselves out for a few months to get him there - how much better would that be?!

Have a look at the collection of DNF's here: http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/uci-road-world-championships-2013/elite-men-road-race/results lots of classics specialists and other double hard bastards.
JLS on 30 Sep 2013
In reply to paget:

I think part of the problem is that GB/Sky have a philosophy where the win is everything, second is nothing. This is great when you've got the guys suited to and trained up for an event but falls in it's face when you have to try and wing it with an inappropriate and under prepared team.

This has given us two Tour champions so I doubt we want to go back to the days of plucky Brits finishing a commendable 34th.

Dave Kerr - on 30 Sep 2013
In reply to andy guppy:

As others have mentioned, the worlds is a special case for a variety of reasons.

It's probably the only race most folks will do in national teams so it tends to split loyalties and magnify enmities.

Let's be honest it's not about the taking part, it's about the medals and if you've been dropped form the main field you might as well stop. Who puts 'finished the world champs' on their palmares?

Many riders are there to do a job of work and when they've done it they might as well stop. It's a long season after all.

Your legs are your livelyhood and there's no point in jeopardising that just to finish an hour down in 50th place. They are professionals, and that means making decisons amateurs might not like.
andy guppy - on 30 Sep 2013
In reply to Dave Kerr:
That maybe true....however even the coach was very disappointed by the attitude of the team
Ellingworth was critical of his team.

"We should be very disappointed," he said.

"The lads' attitude wasn't where it needs to be, to be honest. I'm not sure they really took this on thinking it was going to be as hard as it actually was."
and
"All of them sat on the bus with 100km to go is very disappointing. Luke (Rowe) and Cav (Mark Cavendish) were average, the other guys were well below average," said Ellingworth.
What more is there to say......except Follow RULE 5
Guppy
JYates on 01 Oct 2013
In reply to andy guppy:
I've been following the worlds.....but what does rule 5 mean? I've not heard it mentiond.
Minneconjou Sioux - on 01 Oct 2013
In reply to JYates:
> (In reply to andy guppy)
> I've been following the worlds.....but what does rule 5 mean? I've not heard it mentiond.

Accepting the risk that you are taking the piss:

http://www.velominati.com/the-rules/
Escher - on 01 Oct 2013
In reply to andy guppy: This'll be the same Ellingworth who only has plan A when it comes to one day races, sit on the front all day. He's done amazing things for BC but being a classics tactitician isn't one of them. He wants to be taking a look at himself too before he levels criticism in others. Or is he pointing fingers to deflect criticsm of GBs tactics for which he is responsible? It might've worked in Copenhagen but that was a one off.
John Rushby - on 01 Oct 2013
In reply to andy guppy:

I think this may reveal some of the Team GB naievity that Sean Yates has commented about. they're all about GC, and have not been schooled in the classics like a lot of other DS'.

Maybe G and especaily Stannard can be worthwhile replacements for Flecha and Knees can go hard but I don't see Sky challenging on the classics until they get themselves the right DS. I always expected Roger Hammnond to get offered this role but maybe his time at Disco worried the saints at Sky.

THat said, Servais Knaven is a past Paris Roubaix winner so maybe he should be given a greater role.
John Rushby - on 01 Oct 2013
In reply to John Rushby:

Excepting Knees, for SKy I read Team Gb to a greater extent.

Is thyere anyone on the UK scene who could potentially be included to pull the team through shit weather?

Kristian House maybe. Dean Downing?
johncoxmysteriously - on 01 Oct 2013
In reply to JLS:

>part of the problem

Part of what problem? You can't win them all. Once one race is gone, the priority is the next one. Finishing races without being in contention is not the objective.

jcm
Henry Iddon - on 01 Oct 2013
In reply to andy guppy:

BC and Sky could do with basing themselves in Belgium - so those coming through the U23 system get used to some hard one day racing. Instead on poncing around in Italy.

You can train all you like in the sun and using power metres for Spring Classics but what UK U23 riders need is experience in shit weather on hard roads without race radios. That experience will cross over in to one day events like the Worlds and Olympics.
Enty - on 01 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:

Wow you've hit the nail on the head there Henry.

E
Enty - on 01 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to JLS)
>
> >part of the problem
>
> Part of what problem? You can't win them all. Once one race is gone, the priority is the next one. Finishing races without being in contention is not the objective.
>
> jcm

OK John so why with 2 laps to go when all the Brits had bailed the Belgians and Italians still had almost full squads racing when the majority of them weren't in contention?

Climbing off just because you think a podium place has gone is pathetic - I used to do it until I realised what a cnut it was making me look amongst the other riders and that's on a lowly chipper standard.

E
Enty - on 01 Oct 2013
In reply to andy guppy:

I'm actually really angry about this. I'm glad I didn't go all the way to Florence to cheer the lads on (I nearly did)

I think it's now been proved that numbers, power, heart rates, good planning etc etc can win you a grand tour but grit, passion and determination can win you a classic or the Worlds.
As was proved in the Olympic RR in London and on Sunday.

My love affair with DB, SKY and th current British Cyling way is waning.

I mean - grabbing a rower and turning them into a cyclist just because they can make the numbers and win a medal - WTF?

E
Henry Iddon - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to JLS)
>
> >part of the problem
>
> Part of what problem? You can't win them all. Once one race is gone, the priority is the next one. Finishing races without being in contention is not the objective.
>
> jcm

Climbing off cos you aint gona win is pathetic. End off. GB riders had a responsibility to the jersey on their back, BC members and lottery ticket buyers who put them where the are. Funny how when there is no good news that DB keeps his head down and leaves Ellingworth to fend off the flack. Brailsford is as much a prima donna as some of the riders.

johncoxmysteriously - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:

>Climbing off cos you aint gona win is pathetic. End off.

Rubbish. You see that list someone published earlier of the 'pathetic' cyclists who DNF this one?!

This attitude reminds me of those idiots who criticised Paula Radcliffe for not staggering on in the Olympic marathon to finish 15th.

jcm
johncoxmysteriously - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Enty:

> I mean - grabbing a rower and turning them into a cyclist just because they can make the numbers and win a medal - WTF?

Eh? I don't see anything wrong with that. If they can 'make the numbers and win a medal' then that boils down to being better at the task in hand than the other alternatives. Why on earth wouldn't you go with the best performer?

>I think it's now been proved that numbers, power, heart rates, good planning etc etc can win you a grand tour but grit, passion and determination can win you a classic or the Worlds.

You mean like the same team (give or take) did in 2011?

jcm
Enty - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Enty)
>
>
> You mean like the same team (give or take) did in 2011?
>
> jcm

Perfect example. It was flat and the weather was nice - that race was won by playing the numbers game.


Anyhow - if I race on Saturday and there's a break of 3 or more up the road which are too far ahead to catch should I just climb off?

E
johncoxmysteriously - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Enty:

Oh, fair enough. You mean it takes passion, grit and determination to win the worlds except when GB does it.

Up to you whether you climb off once you can't win. If 45th place is important to you, go ahead and fight for that.

jcm

Henry Iddon - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I think climbing off because you aint gona win is pathetic. Especially when a whole team climbs off.

I appreciate that some riders will have a team roll to play then call it a day - thats pro bike racing. But for team leaders such as Froome to climb off is pretty poor in my book. And it doesn't set a good example to young riders either.

Taking your view to its ultimate conclusion would result in only one finisher per race - ie you wouldn't be fussed if every one who wasn't going to win climbed off. Wouldn't be very entertaining would it? Lets be honest a large part of Pro sport is to provide entertainment and be a type of 'theatre'.

I assume you've experience of elite sport and found 'packing' to be a productive process for your athletic career.
SI - profile removed on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Couldn't agree more, if you've no chance of winning, finish the race and see how you do, if you're going for a podium and you're not going to get it why risk losing other races? It was disappointing to see them all drop but it would have been equally shit if they were ten minutes down the road. The commentator saying ' and the British team are still ten minutes down the road' every twenty minutes wouldn't have improved things for me in the slightest.

If I won the road race I wouldn't care whether the entire field finished or not one of them did. I win's a win. Cycle racing is hopelessly unpredictable, possibly one of the least predictable sports out there for a one day race. The British team have have been outstanding the last few years, possibly the best sport team we've ever produced. I for one well revel in their victories and still enjoy the racing when the can't contest. Some of the attitudes on this thread astonish me, I'm sure it's a British thing.
johncoxmysteriously - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:

> I assume you've experience of elite sport and found 'packing' to be a productive process for your athletic career.

On the contrary, I haven't. That's why I have more sense than to criticise those involved in it when I have little or no idea or what drives their choices. We'd be better off if others followed my example.

jcm
Henry Iddon - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Henry Iddon)
>
> [...]
>
> On the contrary, I haven't. That's why I have more sense than to criticise those involved in it when I have little or no idea or what drives their choices. We'd be better off if others followed my example.
>
> jcm

Thats the rub. While never a European Pro I have raced at an elite level on a bike so do understand what it takes. And while appreciating the Worlds is at the end of the season for a lot of riders I still find the conduct of most of the GB team to be pretty poor.
As do many other well informed commentators.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2013/sep/30/great-britain-cycling-world-championships-flop

johncoxmysteriously - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:

You sure that's the right link? What struck me about it was exactly that he didn't criticise the riders' conduct; obviously it was a poor performance, but that's a different thing.

It also struck me that one of his points was that the poor performance arose because the riders had done too much riding and another that it arose because they'd done too little. Perhaps I didn't grasp the subtleties of his thinking.

jcm
johncoxmysteriously - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:

>While never a European Pro I have raced at an elite level on a bike so do understand what it takes

Really? You've ridden the TdF? I had no idea.

jcm
johnj on 02 Oct 2013 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
In reply to Henry Iddon:

You may have a point if you have a 100% finish rate from every single event you've ever entered.
johncoxmysteriously - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon/Enty etc:

Well, if it was me, Iíd be thinking, ďright, on the one hand, itís f8cking pouring, Iím cold, we have no chance of getting anywhere, precious little chance of even getting the sponsorís logo on TV, the roadís wet and Iím certainly not pushing on and risking breaking a bone and being out for weeks, I could sit up and just ride in but if I do and catch a chill which turns into a chest infection it could set my winter training back weeks, so thereís a strong case for packing it in, but on the other hand, I have to consider that if I do thereíll be a load of squawking on the internet.

I donít think Iíd find that a very difficult decision. Which part of elite bike racing am I failing to comprehend, then?
Henry Iddon - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I didn't say I'd ridden at Pro Tour level - I said I'd ridden at an Elite level - Premier Calendar UK races, Tour of Lancs, international events in UK and 4 rides in the FBD Milk Ras a UCI 9 day stage race in Ireland, World Master on the track.

I also had a staff role within the Recycling MG-X Power Team which was UCI registered.

I only ever climbed off twice other than due to mechanical issues. Once was in the Tour of Lancs when I'd been up all night before stage 1 photographing election results when Labour got in. ( 1996 ? )

The only other time was after stage 5 of the FBD Milk Ras - I got the shits after day one due to bad water at the hotel. And rode the next 4 stages ( mainly around 100 miles each) having eaten nothing but custard and rice crisps.

I'm not one to spout bull, but don't tell me I've never suffered on a bike or in competitive environments,

Fot the record I'm also a former member of the Great Britain Speed Skiing Team.

As you say I know very little about elite sport.

Henry Iddon - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

So if an England footballer thinks " ah this game is lost I'll just potter about for the last 20 minutes" is that acceptable?

If an England Rugby Union player was to easy off for the last 15 mins cos he was scared of getting an injury would that be acceptable?

England are loosing in the Ashes so Andrew Straus takes it easy and doesn't dive for a catch incase he scuffs his knee - is that acceptable?

They were in the World Road Race Championships representing Great Britain - not the same as riding a regular Pro Tour event.
Henry Iddon - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Even the GB DS wasn't impressed

Only Cavendish and Rowe were spared of criticism.

"I think Luke Rowe and Cav were ok, average. The other guys were well below average," Ellingworth told Cyclingnews.com

However obviously you've a more rounded opinion of the whole affair - Ellingworth obviously knows least of all....
johncoxmysteriously - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:

That doesn't sound like elite to me. I've been ranked about 850 in the world at chess, but that doesn't make me an elite chess player by any manner of means. Still, it's a matter of words.

As to your comparisons, I donít find them very helpful. Thereís a big difference between short-term sports depending on physical skill as well as endurance, and long-term endurance events, where competitors commonly drop out.

Anyway, lose the posturing. You think these guys have never suffered on a bike? As I said before, two-thirds of the field didnít finish, including Evans, Quintana, Porte, Martin, Roche, Hoogerland, Hushovd, Bozic, Contador, van Garderen, Sanchez and so on. I donít think these guys need lectures even from someone of your elite accomplishments on the proper competitive spirit.


jcm
johncoxmysteriously - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:

I'm getting bored with this. You seem to be a fool.

Obviously it was a poor performance. That's what Ellingworth was saying.

However, what he wasn't saying was, "In spite of their poor performance, the boys should have stayed on their bikes and grafted to the finish in order to secure 45th place." The only place I've seen anyone say that is various blowhards in internet comment forums.

jcm
woolsack - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Henry Iddon)
>
> That doesn't sound like elite to me.

They don't exactly hand out honorary Elite Race licences

Elite sits at the top of a load of points scoring race finshes in first Cat 4, then Cat 3, Cat 2 and Cat 1. To get to Elite you would be a well above average rider

johncoxmysteriously - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to woolsack:

Oh, I see, you mean "Elite" is a term of art in cycling? That would explain it, certainly. (elite with a small e does not = 'well above average'. 8c climbers are well above average but they're not elite.)

Not comparable, I dare say, but I always enjoy the American use of "Master" in chess to mean "semi-beginner", as compared to say Russia, where the term means something.

jcm
andy guppy - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
It appears that the only fool on this thread is you.....you need to check your facts....and stick to something you understand CHESS!!! WTF
Guppy
Henry Iddon - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

4th, 9th. 13th in BBAR - British Best All Rounder Time Trial comp.

3rd in Lake Land and Lancs Div RR

10th in World Master Points Race. ( 30 - 35 Age Group )

33rd FBD Milk Ras on GC ( When it was a 9 day )

PB 176kmh at Les Arcs FIS World Cup Speed Skiing ( inc full season on FIS Speed Skiing Circuit )

As you say I have no experience of the upper echelons of Sport, and am certainly not what could be described as anything getting close to an Elite sports person. You're right I'm a fool and not much better than most local keep fit people.

You're wrong on this one. Jog on.
Henry Iddon - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

If you wish to learn anymore about the emotions and philosophy of sport then let ma know and I'll send a copy of my 1999 MA Thesis - "Photography, Embodiment and the Athletic Experience"

I'm sure you'll find the bibliography a rich seam of reading for the dark winter months.

For example this is an excellent collection : Philosophic Inquiry in Sport by Morgan and Meier
It really gives an insight in to the minds and issues surrounding sport - elite and otherwise.

http://www.amazon.com/Philosophic-Inquiry-Sport-William-Morgan/dp/0873227166

Obviously as a keen outdoors man, with an understanding and passion for what motivates people I'm sure you'd also love the excellent 'Philosophy, Risk and Adventure Sports' by Mike McNamee

http://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Risk-Adventure-Sports-McNamee/dp/0415351855/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&...

Hugh Cottam - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:

Why not put the rest of your CV on. Perhaps JCM will give you a job!
Calder - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
>
> So if an England footballer thinks " ah this game is lost I'll just potter about for the last 20 minutes" is that acceptable?
>
> If an England Rugby Union player was to easy off for the last 15 mins cos he was scared of getting an injury would that be acceptable?
>
> England are loosing in the Ashes so Andrew Straus takes it easy and doesn't dive for a catch incase he scuffs his knee - is that acceptable?
>
> They were in the World Road Race Championships representing Great Britain - not the same as riding a regular Pro Tour event.

All of your scenarios would ruin the spectacle. Sundays race would have been no more exciting if several plucky Brits were in a following group with no chance of winning.

So, am I disappointed they didn't do better? Yes. But do I give a flying that they got off their bikes early? No. They were out of contention already, so it had no bearing on my enjoyment of the race. They'll know there are lessons to be learnt - they're professionals after all, and wouldn't have had the success they've already has without learning from experience.

As for your thesis... Get over yourself.
Henry Iddon - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Calder:

Forgive me but Mr Cox called me a fool - I was simply illustrating that I have a vague understanding of sport and issues around it. Is that a problem?
Henry Iddon - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Hugh Cottam:

ha ha true - alas he thinks I'm a fool so doubt I'd make 2nd round of interviews - even if I did and it was raining I'd be pushed to show up unless I was certain to win the job ;)
John Rushby - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:

Yeah

but whathaveyoudoneongrit

?
Calder - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:

Well it's not evident in your arguments, such as in your comparison of Sundays race to other sports.
Henry Iddon - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Calder:

Ok I know nothing about top end cycling or other sports. Not a jot about it. I appreciate you know vastly more. Sorry.

What I do know is that when someone pulls on a national team jersey they should show it the respect it deserves. Oh Froome is....
woolsack - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:
> (In reply to Calder)
>
> Forgive me but Mr Cox called me a fool - I was simply illustrating that I have a vague understanding of sport and issues around it. Is that a problem?

Mr Cox is having a quiet day at the office, no juicy 'no win-no fee' cases to chase today
johnj on 02 Oct 2013 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
In reply to Henry Iddon:
> (In reply to Calder)
>

> What I do know is that when someone pulls on a national team jersey they should show it the respect it deserves. Oh Froome is....

Has it ever occurred to you that on the day he might of done the best that he could?
andy guppy - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to johnj:
or the drugs ran out .....:]
johnj on 02 Oct 2013 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
In reply to andy guppy:
> (In reply to johnj)
> or the drugs ran out .....:]

You'll have to expand on this point?
John Rushby - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:

Henry

Question - as you've been at the sharp end of cycling. I just about managed a late sub and half a cap at hockey.

Going back to the Wegelius days - is it still seen as something pro riders have to do as an obligation (Cav excepted) ?

Do they still ride to team not national orders?

Is it not fair to say the UK team got a bit of bad luck - Stannard (who could have been in the mix at the end)

Also, since the Worlds tend race like a Crit - off like bloody rats up a drain pipe from the off, why not climb off if you're not in the mix? this is where the comparison to athletics breaks down - the individual runs the race. There "might" be a pacer but it's not team effort.

Perhaps that's the differance, the younger guys who did the whole Gb Youth thing felt obligated, while the older guys and Froome especially did not.



aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand as a total aside, does the Froome / Wiggins thing remind you of Roche / Visentini?

andy guppy - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to johnj:
Having destroyed everyone at the TdF [and the rest of the season] why such a piss poor performance at the WC...... did the drugs ran out or maybe he needed to try a little harder...Rule 5 :]
guppy
johnj on 02 Oct 2013 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
In reply to andy guppy:
> (In reply to johnj)
> Having destroyed everyone at the TdF [and the rest of the season] why such a piss poor performance at the WC...... did the drugs ran out or maybe he needed to try a little harder...Rule 5 :]
> guppy

So let me get this right, now you're implying they doped through the tour and didn't dope for this hence the change in form, and if they'd just manned up they would have won?
andy guppy - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to johnj:
None of the comments on this thread are actually about Froome or any of the team winning the WC.....there about the poor performance/attitude shown.
All in the bus with a 100km to go.....they really needed to show some pride in representing Team GB.
Guppy
johnj on 02 Oct 2013 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
In reply to andy guppy:

Yes everyone can see that they underperformed, some people seem to think that that's just the way it works out sometimes, and others seem to think that they didn't try hard enough. You're not going to get everyone to agree as everyone has their own view on the matter.
johncoxmysteriously - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:

Look, the reason I called you a fool was that you appeared to be incapable of rational thought. Blustering about your qualifications instead of replying to the point isn't exactly contraindicating the initial impression. Having said that, on the basis of your performance in this thread I'm amazed you were able to obtain an MA, so congratulations on that.

You said that Froome & Co. should have chugged on to the finish instead of getting off their bikes and that not doing so was 'pathetic'. I disagreed. You then posted a couple of links to people saying they'd performed poorly and discussing why, which you seemed to imagine supported your view. In fact, they were of no relevance whatsoever. We can all agree they performed poorly; the question was whether having performed poorly they should then carry on flogging themselves to please you.

I (and others) then pointed out that two-thirds of the world's top 200 or so cyclists had also climbed off their bikes once their chance was gone, implying that if you thought such behaviour was pathetic and a raft of Grand Tour, classic and stage winners took the opposite view, perhaps you don't know quite so much about elite sport as you think. You don't seem to have an answer to that, not surprisingly since it's difficult to imagine what answer there could be.

As to whether your cycling was at an 'elite' level, it's a matter of words. Myself, I reserve 'elite' for people who compete in events the public has heard of. But if you want to extend it far enough downwards to include yourself, go ahead.

jcm
Nick Wallis on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to andy guppy: The bottom line: Team GB are representing their Country. I think it's unacceptable for none of the team to finish. There are many, many very able cyclists who would give their right arm to be in that position, but who don't get on the team. Frankly if at least some of Team GB can't be arsed to put the effort in to at least finish, then their places should go to those that would. Sure they're not going to get a high placing, but it's way way better than a long list of DNF's. If I were the DS, they'd all get a rocket up their arse.
ads.ukclimbing.com
johncoxmysteriously - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Nick Wallis:

Gosh, if only Paolo di Canio were the British team's DS. Imagine that.

jcm
John Rushby - on 02 Oct 2013
In reply to Nick Wallis:

Would it be a fair analogy to compare flogging yourself to death to finish 97th to just trying to on sight a route and failing, preferring to walk way than headpoint it and undermine the worth of it, knowing it's doable?

The Worlds is all about 1,2,3. The rest is numbers. Why risk a faceplant on wetn, newly laid tarmac with that nice oily top layer?
SI - profile removed on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to John Rushby:
> (In reply to Nick Wallis)
>
> The Worlds is all about 1,2,3. The rest is numbers. Why risk a faceplant on wetn, newly laid tarmac with that nice oily top layer?

Erm... because you're representing your county? Have you know honour Rushby? I'd happily risk losing all my front teeth and breaking both my collar bones to save the Glorious Nation of Britannia from humiliation by coming 45th in a bike race.

People like you disgust me.
Escher - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Elite refers to a category of racing licence relating to the number of points earned through competing in lower categories http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/road/article/roadst_Road-Categories_Classifications
Enty - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to John Rushby:
> (In reply to Nick Wallis)
>
>
>
> The Worlds is all about 1,2,3.

It is about 1,2,3.
But on Sunday with 10km to go it was about 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, - 40.

If you'd told Rui Costa he would be world champ 25km out he'd have laughed at you. I'm sure he and Cancellara and Gilbert et al were all suffering just as much as the Brits were half way through the race.

Gotta be innit to win it. That's my point.

E

BelleVedere on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Henry Iddon)
>
> That doesn't sound like elite to me. I've been ranked about 850 in the world at chess, but that doesn't make me an elite chess player by any manner of means. Still, it's a matter of words.
>
>

No it's an actual catagorisation used in british cycle racing: which goes from 4th cat, 3rd cat, 2nd cat, 1st cat, elite. Saying you're an elite rider means you've won enough points to progress to that category. But you knew that already didn't you?
Enty - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to BelleVedere:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
> [...]
>
> No it's an actual catagorisation used in british cycle racing: which goes from 4th cat, 3rd cat, 2nd cat, 1st cat, elite. Saying you're an elite rider means you've won enough points to progress to that category. But you knew that already didn't you?

A bloody high standard too in the UK. I was training in Mallorca in March with a group of Elites - you might have heard of Stephen Burke, Dean Downing and Malcolm Elliot.

E
Jim Hamilton - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Enty:

Is there a great moral difference between Wiggins stopping in this race and his decision to pull out of the the Giro, which I see you and Henry Iddon agreed with at the time ?
Enty - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Jim Hamilton:

I didn't know any of the lads last weekend had chest infections. Obviously they made the right decision to pack but then again they shouldn't have started in the first place.

E
Jim Hamilton - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Enty:

but apparently many in the Giro had that illness, but "soldiered on" and recovered to finish.
Henry Iddon - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Jim Hamilton:

In the Giro Wiggins was riding for his trade team. At the Worlds he was riding for his country. There is a difference.
Henry Iddon - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I didn't say they should have chugged to the finish. ( Feel free to quote me )

My opinion is they should have raced with more commitment. My link underlines other failures in the BC system which should also be addressed to improve GB's performance in major one day events such as the Worlds and Olympics. Lets not forget that the reason British Cycling invested a huge amount of time and money to set up the Sky team was in order to improve Great Britain's performance at such one day events.

I see no reason to reduce the matter the cheap personal comments about whether or not I deserve academic qualifications based on an online thread in a forum that often reduces itself to simple 'pub banter'.

Enty - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Jim Hamilton:
> (In reply to Enty)
>
> but apparently many in the Giro had that illness, but "soldiered on" and recovered to finish.

The Sky team doctor told Wiggins to quit. Who else on the other teams got the same advice from their doctors but decided to carry on - I'd be interested to know.


E

woolsack - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)

>
> I see no reason to reduce the matter the cheap personal comments about whether or not I deserve academic qualifications based on an online thread in a forum that often reduces itself to simple 'pub banter'.

Unfortunately that is what you get with the Fabulous Mr Cox
johncoxmysteriously - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to BelleVedere:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
> [...]
>
> No it's an actual catagorisation used in british cycle racing: which goes from 4th cat, 3rd cat, 2nd cat, 1st cat, elite. Saying you're an elite rider means you've won enough points to progress to that category. But you knew that already didn't you?

No. But (a) HI wasn't talking about cycling as such but 'elite sport' and (b) if that all one means is a particular formal level in UK cycling one would do better to say Elite.

Still, whatever. We can all agree that HI has competed in cycling at a level a good deal above most if not all of us and a good deal below the guys he's criticising.

jcm
johncoxmysteriously - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:

>I see no reason to reduce the matter the cheap personal comments about whether or not I deserve academic qualifications based on an online thread in a forum that often reduces itself to simple 'pub banter'.

A bit rich coming from someone whose first thought was to pull rank by pointing out that I had no experience of 'elite sport', don't you think?

jcm
johncoxmysteriously - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
>
> I didn't say they should have chugged to the finish. ( Feel free to quote me )
>

Certainly.

"I think climbing off because you aint gona win is pathetic." (Henry I, about 40 posts higher up)

jcm
elliptic on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> HI wasn't talking about cycling as such but 'elite sport'

*sigh* what he said was:

> While never a European Pro I have raced at an elite level on a bike

And you actually quoted that line yourself upthread.
johncoxmysteriously - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to elliptic:

Indeed, but before that he said "I assume you've experience of elite sport and found 'packing' to be a productive process for your athletic career.", seeking to imply that he had and I hadn't experience of 'elite sport'.

Anyway, neither HI nor anyone else has answered the obvious question; was it just Froome et al who were pathetic for climbing off, or does the same criticism apply to Contador, Sagan, Evans, Martin and the other gentlemen I listed higher up?

jcm

woolsack - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
>
>
> Still, whatever. We can all agree that HI has competed in cycling at a level a good deal above most if not all of us and a good deal below the guys he's criticising.
>
> jcm

Same license

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/points?&person_id=5948&year=2013&d=4
http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/points?&person_id=67070&year=2013&d=4
http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/points?&person_id=53305&year=2013&d=4
Enty - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Evans crashed and packed - fair do's. Sagan crashed, chased back on and got 6th. Thanks for the examples John.

E
johncoxmysteriously - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Enty:

True; wrong Sagan.

Still, OK - are we saying that the vast majority of the following are also "pathetic".

DNF Youcef Reguigui (Algeria)
DNF Enzo Moyano (Argentina)
DNF Cadel Evans (Australia)
DNF Cameron Meyer (Australia)
DNF David Tanner (Australia)
DNF Mathew Hayman (Australia)
DNF Michael Matthews (Australia)
DNF Richie Porte (Australia)
DNF Rohan Dennis (Australia)
DNF Rory Sutherland (Australia)
DNF Bernhard Eisel (Austria)
DNF Georg Preidler (Austria)
DNF Markus Eibegger (Austria)
DNF Matthias Brandle (Austria)
DNF Riccardo Zoidl (Austria)
DNF Kanstantsin Siutsou (Belarus)
DNF Bjorn Leukemans (Belgium)
DNF Johan Vansummeren (Belgium)
DNF Maxime Monfort (Belgium)
DNF Murilo Antonio Fischer (Brazil)
DNF Rafael Andriato (Brazil)
DNF Spas Gyurov (Bulgaria)
DNF Christian Meier (Canada)
DNF Francois Parisien (Canada)
DNF Janier Acevedo Calle (Colombia)
DNF Jose Cayetano Sarmiento Tunarosa (Colombia)
DNF Miguel Angel Rubiano Chavez (Colombia)
DNF Nairo Alexander Quintana Rojas (Colombia)
DNF Winner Anacona Gomez (Colombia)
DNF Andrey Amador Bikkazakova (Costa Rica)
DNF Gregory Obando Brenes (Costa Rica)
DNF Kristijan Durasek (Croatia)
DNF Radoslav Rogina (Croatia)
DNF Frantisek Rabon (Czech Republic)
DNF Jakub Novak (Czech Republic)
DNF Martin Hunal (Czech Republic)
DNF Stanislav Kozubek (Czech Republic)
DNF Matti Breschel (Denmark)
DNF Jose Ragonessi (Ecuador)
DNF Daniel Teklehaymanot (Eritrea)
DNF Jani Tewelde Weldegabir (Eritrea)
DNF Meron Russom (Eritrea)
DNF Alo Jakin (Estonia)
DNF Gert Joeaar (Estonia)
DNF Tanel Kangert (Estonia)
DNF Jussi Veikkanen (Finland)
DNF Christophe Riblon (France)
DNF Warren Barguil (France)
DNF Dominik Nerz (Germany)
DNF Bradley Wiggins (Great Britain)
DNF Christopher Froome (Great Britain)
DNF Geraint Thomas (Great Britain)
DNF Ian Stannard (Great Britain)
DNF Joshua Edmondson (Great Britain)
DNF Luke Rowe (Great Britain)
DNF Mark Cavendish (Great Britain)
DNF Stephen Cummings (Great Britain)
DNF Ioannis Tamouridis (Greece)
DNF Ho Ting Kwok (Hong Kong, China)
DNF King Lok Cheung (Hong Kong, China)
DNF Peter Kusztor (Hungary)
DNF Daniel Martin (Ireland)
DNF Matt Brammeier (Ireland)
DNF Nicolas Roche (Ireland)
DNF Sam Bennett (Ireland)
DNF Alessandro Vanotti (Italy)
DNF Diego Ulissi (Italy)
DNF Ivan Santaromita (Italy)
DNF Luca Paolini (Italy)
DNF Rinaldo Nocentini (Italy)
DNF Alexey Lutsenko (Kazakhstan)
DNF Andrey Zeits (Kazakhstan)
DNF Andris Smirnovs (Latvia)
DNF Viesturs Luksevics (Latvia)
DNF Gediminas Bagdonas (Lithuania)
DNF Ramunas Navardauskas (Lithuania)
DNF Bob Jungels (Luxembourg)
DNF Sea Keong Loh (Malaysia)
DNF Hector Hugo Rangel Zamarron (Mexico)
DNF Juan Pablo Magallanes Aranda (Mexico)
DNF Uri Martins (Mexico)
DNF Adil Jelloul (Morocco)
DNF Essaid Abelouache (Morocco)
DNF Ismail Ayoune (Morocco)
DNF Lahcen Saber (Morocco)
DNF Reda Aadel (Morocco)
DNF Johnny Hoogerland (Netherlands)
DNF Laurens Ten Dam (Netherlands)
DNF Robert Gesink (Netherlands)
DNF Sebastian Langeveld (Netherlands)
DNF Tom Dumoulin (Netherlands)
DNF Tom Jelte Slagter (Netherlands)
DNF George Bennett (New Zealand)
DNF Jack Bauer (New Zealand)
DNF Sam Bewley (New Zealand)
DNF Thor Hushovd (Norway)
DNF Maciej Bodnar (Poland)
DNF Michal Kwiatkowski (Poland)
DNF Przemyslaw Niemiec (Poland)
DNF Szmyd Sylwester (Poland)
DNF Andrť Fernando Cardoso (Portugal)
DNF Serghei Tvetcov (Republic of Moldova)
DNF Alexandr Kolobnev (Russian Federation)
DNF Ivan Stevic (Serbia)
DNF Juraj Sagan (Slovakia)
DNF Martin Velits (Slovakia)
DNF Matej Jurco (Slovakia)
DNF Patrik Tybor (Slovakia)
DNF Peter Velits (Slovakia)
DNF Borut Bozic (Slovenia)
DNF Grega Bole (Slovenia)
DNF Janez Brajkovic (Slovenia)
DNF Kristijan Koren (Slovenia)
DNF Mugerli Matej (Slovenia)
DNF Daryl Impey (South Africa)
DNF Reinardt Janse Van Rensburg (South Africa)
DNF Alberto Contador Velasco (Spain)
DNF Egoi Martinez De Esteban (Spain)
DNF Jose Herrada Lopez (Spain)
DNF Luis Leon Sanchez Gil (Spain)
DNF Samuel Sanchez Gonzalez (Spain)
DNF Fredrik Carl Wilhelm Kessiakoff (Sweden)
DNF Tobias Ludvigsson (Sweden)
DNF Martin Elmiger (Switzerland)
DNF Mathias Frank (Switzerland)
DNF Michael Albasini (Switzerland)
DNF Michael Schar (Switzerland)
DNF Oliver Zaugg (Switzerland)
DNF Sebastien Reichenbach (Switzerland)
DNF Rafaa Chtioui (Tunisia)
DNF Andriy Khripta (Ukraine)
DNF Mykhaylo Kononenko (Ukraine)
DNF Sergiy Grechyn (Ukraine)
DNF Vitaliy Buts (Ukraine)
DNF Yaroslav Popovych (Ukraine)
DNF Andrew Talansky (United States of America)
DNF Christopher Horner (United States of America)
DNF Matthew Busche (United States of America)
DNF Taylor Phinney (United States of America)
DNF Tejay van Garderen (United States of America)
DNF Carlos Jose Ochoa (Venezuela)
DNF Freddy Vargas (Venezuela)
DNF Jackson Rodriguez (Venezuela)
DNF Pedro Sequera (Venezuela)
DNF Yonathan Monsalve (Venezuela)
DNF Yonder Godoy (Venezuela)

Actually, I was too generous - that's 140 odd, more than twice the number that finished. Let's say 70% of the world's elite did the same. All pathetic?

jcm
Enty - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Enty:

Ha ha Nibali crashed too - I didn't know that.

ďI had bad luck,Ē Sagan told VeloNews. ďIím satisfied with sixth place. Itís another experience that I can use in the future.Ē <i/>

E
johncoxmysteriously - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to woolsack:

I have the same driving licence as Jensen Button. Administrative classifications don't tell you much.

jcm
Henry Iddon - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Henry Iddon)
> [...]
>
> Certainly.
>
> "I think climbing off because you aint gona win is pathetic." (Henry I, about 40 posts higher up)
>
> jcm

Forgive me for being pedantic but my above quote doesn't seem to contain the words - chugged to the finish.
Henry Iddon - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Henry Iddon)
>
> >I see no reason to reduce the matter the cheap personal comments about whether or not I deserve academic qualifications based on an online thread in a forum that often reduces itself to simple 'pub banter'.
>
> A bit rich coming from someone whose first thought was to pull rank by pointing out that I had no experience of 'elite sport', don't you think?
>
> jcm

I was simply stating that I have knowledge of the activity being discussed - there was no intention to 'pull rank'. Neither was I making comment on anyones academic achievements.
johncoxmysteriously - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:

Indeed not. That was my paraphrase. Why, you thought they should have continued racing hard to the finish even once they had no chance of a decent finish?! That's even more bizarre.

It would be interesting to know how many riders who were behind, say, Froome when he abandoned finished in, let's say, the top 20. Does anyone?

jcm
johncoxmysteriously - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:

>I was simply stating that I have knowledge of the activity being
discussed - there was no intention to 'pull rank'.

Bollocks. You were implying that I didn't and therefore your opinion was worth more than mine.

jcm
Enty - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Enty)
>
> True; wrong Sagan.
>
> Still, OK - are we saying that the vast majority of the following are also "pathetic".
>
>
> Actually, I was too generous - that's 140 odd, more than twice the number that finished. Let's say 70% of the world's elite did the same. All pathetic?
>
> jcm

My pathetic comment was regarding the Froome and G interview shrugging their DNf's off and blaming the rain.

E

woolsack - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to woolsack)
>
> I have the same driving licence as Jensen Button. Administrative classifications don't tell you much.
>
> jcm

An apples and pairs example. You'll need to get off your arse, lose the stabilisers and pedal furiously before you'll have an Elite race license. You don't just apply for an Elite race license, you earn it through results and performance
ads.ukclimbing.com
johncoxmysteriously - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Enty:

Yes, I'm really referring to HI's comment that climbing off the bike once you have no chance to win was 'pathetic', when in reality it appears to be the norm.

Though mind you I think the rainís a big factor in the number of DNFs. Itís one thing to chug on in normal conditions, another when itís more than usually dangerous. I didnít see the interview, but I think that would have been a fair enough point to make.

jcm
Mike Highbury - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to woolsack:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
> [...]
>
> An apples and pairs example. You'll need to get off your arse, lose the stabilisers and pedal furiously before you'll have an Elite race license. You don't just apply for an Elite race license, you earn it through results and performance

Oh get a grip. There is the world of difference between being a member of a UCI world tour team and an amateur with an Elite licence.
johncoxmysteriously - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to woolsack:

Goodness me, this really is getting tiresome. I appreciate that driving licenses and race licenses are not the same thing. I was attempting, facetiously, to point out that just because one administrative category covers two riders, that doesn't mean they're performing at the same level. Obviously they're not FFS. CF and BW are Grand Tour winners. How many of those raced in whatever HI was racing in?

jcm
Enty - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Mike Highbury:
> (In reply to woolsack)
> [...]
>
> There is the world of difference between being a member of a UCI world tour team and an amateur with an Elite licence.

About 50 grand a year and the chance to ride your bike for 30 hours a week.

E
FrankBooth - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to andy guppy:
Interesting that Wiggins dislike of the rain was cited as a reason to drop out. When Wiggins decided to enter the Tour of Britain, he knew more than anyone that the likelihood of it bucketing down, which of course, it did for most of the race. Clearly, he also knew his likelihood of winning was very high, so on balance he was quite prepared to accept the discomfort when the personal glory of the win on home territory was up for grabs.

Having said all that, I don't personally think there's anything wrong with the team taking a 'if you can't win, call it a day' approach - providing it was just that - a team decision, agreed before the start. If Froome had a realistic chance of winning, I think the rest of the team should have been prepared to dig deep and see give him the best chance.
Henry Iddon - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Henry Iddon)
>
> >I was simply stating that I have knowledge of the activity being
> discussed - there was no intention to 'pull rank'.
>
> Bollocks. You were implying that I didn't and therefore your opinion was worth more than mine.
>
> jcm

I wasn't implying anything. I was simply stating my position as someone with experience of cycle racing. What may I ask is yours?
johncoxmysteriously - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:

>What may I ask is yours?

What does that have to do with it? I thought you werenít trying to pull rank?

Anyway, none, of course. I am simply relying on the judgment of BW and CF, who I believe do have some experience of cycle racing, and indeed that of the 143 gentlemen I listed above, who collectively must have more experience of cycle racing even than you, I would have thought.

jcm
johnj on 03 Oct 2013 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
>
> Evans crashed and packed - fair do's. Sagan crashed, chased back on and got 6th. Thanks for the examples John.
>
> E

Sagan was very lucky where he crashed and got a bike change at the feed station which at that point the front runners were almost at a standstill, Evans crashed hard on the fast part of the circuit and the circumstances to get back on would have been more difficult.

I watched the whole race, I failed to understand what sort of plan the British team had by riding at the front for majority of the long circuit, whilst many other teams where sat well back wrapped up warm, due to the weather the pace wasn't even that high.

I think also what a lot of people have failed to grasp is due to the crit style of the laps, many of these riders who were dropped from the peloton would have eventually have been very close to getting lapped which at that stage would have been pulled out by the organizers, so once you're off the back and no chance of getting back on everyone sits up. Also I think all this talk of pride of the GB shirt is just some form of patriotic bull, just another bike race.
Enty - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johnj:
> (In reply to Enty)
> [...]
>
> Also I think all this talk of pride of the GB shirt is just some form of patriotic bull, just another bike race.

My beef is that this never seems to apply to the Italians.

E
johnj on 03 Oct 2013 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
In reply to Enty:

Oh yeah the Italians put on a world class event, and rode like lions and still came away with nothing. We did underperform that is for sure. British cycling has come a long way in the last few years, Hopefully they can learn from this.
Hugh Cottam - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Enty:
Well they were pretty half-hearted during the war. The only country they beat then was Abyssinia.
Henry Iddon - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

It's not a question of 'rank'.

Is it not a question of informed opinion?

I don't doubt that a proportion of those riders who DNF'd had valid reason to do so - injury, illness, crashes, having played a team roll etc. The two protected Irish riders crashed as I understand it - therefore there was no further need for Sam Bennett and Matt Brammeier ( a personal friend) to continue.

The debate isn't about the reasons for every individual failing to finish - but about about the casual and poor effort / poor management of the GB Team in general. Particularly of the team leader.
Enty - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johnj:
> (In reply to Enty)
>
> Oh yeah the Italians put on a world class event, and rode like lions and still came away with nothing. We did underperform that is for sure. British cycling has come a long way in the last few years, Hopefully they can learn from this.

I've been to watch the worlds twice and been lucky enough to hang out for the day with a bunch of Italians. On one occasion with a couple of ex pros who had organised food and drink for the fans. The pride these folk had in the team was amazing. Just being able to watch the team battle it out to the end was enough. On one occasion they were luck and won on one occasion they got nothing.

Now, my Brit friends who stood for 7 hours in the rain in Florence......

E
johncoxmysteriously - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:

>It's not a question of 'rank'.

Is it not a question of informed opinion?

I don't see the difference.

>The debate isn't about the reasons for every individual failing to finish - but about about the casual and poor effort / poor management of the GB Team in general. Particularly of the team leader.

Not as far as I'm concerned. I only replied to your specific comment that it was pathetic to get off your bike once the chance to win had gone, which was, and remains, rubbish, as evidenced by the fact most of the field did the same thing.

jcm

IainRUK - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon: I do generally agree. I hate the idea put forwards that winners never quit. They do all the time. But it has to be rare and for a reason, an injury. Some factor driving it. Not just bad race. In ultra's its awful because slower runners push this motion that people don't quit. They do all the time, but only when they know continuing risks the rest of the season. If Froome et al quit before that point it is shocking.
johncoxmysteriously - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

Yeah, but bike racing is different. Continuing in the rain always risks injury - indeed death, if you want to get melodramatic about it.

jcm
johncoxmysteriously - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

>But it has to be rare

After all, repeating myself, 70% of the race saw fit to 'quit' including quite a few 'winners'.

jcm
Henry Iddon - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to IainRUK)
>
> Yeah, but bike racing is different. Continuing in the rain always risks injury - indeed death, if you want to get melodramatic about it.
>
> jcm

How do you know it's different ? You admit to having none or very little first hand experience of cycle racing.

The risk of injury is there whatever the weather, puncturing on a fast decent, dusty surface, touching wheels. Wet weather may increase the risk but racing in the dry isn't risk free.

The key issue is:

Is it acceptable for a rider representing their country, and in a protected rider roll, and who's national team has spent a significant amount of time and money invested in their development, to simply climb off and DNF because the weather is poor and they don't feel they have the form to win when there is a significant part of the racing still to go.

I personally don't think that is acceptable.

johncoxmysteriously - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:

>How do you know it's different ?

How do I know that bike racing is different from endurance running?!

Well, fuq me, that's a tricky one. Let's see. Let's just say I guessed, shall we?

Here's a question for you. How do you know that shagging badgers is different from flower arranging? After all, I'm assuming you've never tried either of them, certainly not at any elite level.

jcm
johncoxmysteriously - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:

>Is it acceptable for a rider representing their country, and in a protected rider roll, and who's national team has spent a significant amount of time and money invested in their development, to simply climb off and DNF because the weather is poor and they don't feel they have the form to win when there is a significant part of the racing still to go.

Agreed; that is the question. A moment ago, when you were blustering about something different, you said the question was different and much wider, including, e.g., the poor management of the GB team, but hey, whatever.

What it comes down to therefore is that you think something is "not acceptable" (one of those phrases which *invariably* sets off the bullshit detector of the wise reader), whereas 70% of the world's actual, y'know, elite cyclists think it's normal.

jcm
Henry Iddon - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

yet again you revert to petty remarks
Henry Iddon - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Henry Iddon)
>
> >Is it acceptable for a rider representing their country, and in a protected rider roll, and who's national team has spent a significant amount of time and money invested in their development, to simply climb off and DNF because the weather is poor and they don't feel they have the form to win when there is a significant part of the racing still to go.
>

>

This is the central issue.

The point I raised about GB planning etc is a broader issue. I consider it important to take an overview as well as look at the specifics of an issue.

Enty - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to andy guppy:

You guys having fun. I'm at The Groseau, just failed to redpoint my 7b for the nth time. More fun than Ukc though.

E
Calder - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
> [...]
>
> >Is it acceptable for a rider representing their country, and in a protected rider roll, and who's national team has spent a significant amount of time and money invested in their development, to simply climb off and DNF because the weather is poor and they don't feel they have the form to win when there is a significant part of the racing still to go.
>
> This is the central issue.
>
> The point I raised about GB planning etc is a broader issue. I consider it important to take an overview as well as look at the specifics of an issue.

So what you're saying is that you think they should have chugged to the finish?
Nevis-the-cat - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Enty:

I note Michelle Cound has piped up, having a go at the armchair critics about them all quitting.

I'd love to see a naked margarine smeared bitch fight between her and Kath Wiggins. My money's on Kath if only because they make Lancastrian children fight for food with starving dogs.
Enty - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Calder:
> (In reply to Henry Iddon)
> [...]
>
> So what you're saying is that you think they should have chugged to the finish?

Personally I don't think anyone should have chugged to the finish. But they should have put the weather and crashes to the back of their minds and concentrated on who to be near when the main splits of the day started (like the Italians and The Belgians did)


E
andy - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to Calder)
> [...]
>
> Personally I don't think anyone should have chugged to the finish. But they should have put the weather and crashes to the back of their minds and concentrated on who to be near when the main splits of the day started (like the Italians and The Belgians did)
>
>
> E

Agree absolutely - they rode a shit race. But once they'd cocked up I can't see the problem with them getting off. All this "pride in the jersey" is a massive bag of poo - as Wayne "the badge kisser" Rooney. Particularly, as the non-elite JCM points out, they could put their fitness at risk for no reward.
Henry Iddon - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to Calder)
> [...]
>
> Personally I don't think anyone should have chugged to the finish. But they should have put the weather and crashes to the back of their minds and concentrated on who to be near when the main splits of the day started (like the Italians and The Belgians did)
>
>
> E

Exactly
andy - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:
> (In reply to Enty)
> [...]
>
> Exactly

Isn't that what john's been saying - they shouldn't have missed the breaks, but once they did and were out of it, who cares what they did. Unless I've misunderstood what you were saying earlier I thought your point was that they should have carried on regardless?

(Never done a bike race, cycling proficiency in 1972).
IainRUK - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to andy: But you don't know whats going to happen. I am a fan of being in it to win it. Certainly if I pulled out of a GB race because I was no longer in contention I would not get a vest again. That's for sure. I think its almost a lack of respect for the rest of the field (which is understandable because slefishness must be an important streak in being that good).. imagine races where only 5 riders/runners finish each race because all 50 just want to medal.
ads.ukclimbing.com
johncoxmysteriously - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

You know 70% of the field didn't finish, Iain, right? Including, I think I'm right in saying, every TdF winner in the field (not that the TdF is the be-all and end-all, but still).

Different sports have different customs.

jcm
Henry Iddon - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

Exactly.

Given the quality of riders in this years GB Team a better performance - either as a tangible result or the number of riders who finished the race and played a part within it - should have been expected.
andy - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon: I'm now not clear what your problem is - earlier it seemed to be that you thought that for the honour of wearing the jumper they should have ridden to the finish regardless, yet this says (and I agree) that they should have done a whole lot better than they did (which seems to be the consensus amongst most commentators).

Once they'd screwed up (and I assume that at your/their level there's a point at which you know you're not getting back on), what would you have preferred they did?
Alun - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:

> Is it not a question of informed opinion?

No. The moment somebody feels the need to start mentioning their qualifications in order to to try and reinforce their point is, in my view, the moment at which they begin to lose ground in any debate. If you have to say "trust me, I have more experience than you", then you are not doing a good job of convincing others of why you are right.

FWIW I wasn't too impressed with Team GB pulling out of the race either, but neither do I think it was 'pathetic'.
IainRUK - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Yeah but I think the top riders are more likely to pull out, inherent selfishness and success go hand in hand. There have been a few articles on Wiggins's selfishness this week. But I think its to be expected.

They are in it to win it and finishing 14th or 30th in the WC means little to them. I can understand it, but don't think it should happen.
johncoxmysteriously - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

>Yeah but I think the top riders are more likely to pull out

More likely than who? There's 140 odd riders pulled out. They can't all be TdF winners.

jcm
Enty - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to IainRUK)
>
> You know 70% of the field didn't finish, Iain, right?
>
>

Lets break this 70% down into sub-groups.

Those who had a serious crash
Those who had a minor crash with no team car near
Those who simply bonked
Those who had technical issues
Those who didn't like the rain


E

Enty - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

You shouldn't compare the TDF with one day classics and The Worlds John.

E
Henry Iddon - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to IainRUK)
>
They can't all be TdF winners.
>
> jcm

No there is only one winner / finisher as everyone else has pulled out !
IainRUK - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: But you highlighted every TDF winner did. That did not surprise me. Those guys would have expected to medal or do well.

However I also think you have to consider the schedules of these riders. Top marathoners will do 1-2 max 3 marathons a year. Top riders seem to compete almost continually through the season so will need to minimise damage and recover asap. So in that regard I can understand it, just don't agree with it.
Enty - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Enty:

When G cracked his hip in the TDF, in an interview he said "There's no way I'm quitting it's the TDF after all"

A bit differnt to his interview on Sunday.

E
Henry Iddon - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Alun:

Mt Cox rubbished my opinion.

I simply stated my previous experiences to underline the fact that I have some experience of the matters to hand.

Is that wrong.

Mr Cox also reverted to cheap comments about my academic qualifications. I assume you thing that that is perfectly acceptable.

Pint anyone?
johncoxmysteriously - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
>
> You shouldn't compare the TDF with one day classics and The Worlds John.
>
> E

No, sure. I'm just pointing out that there were some pretty damned hard cyclists who didn't consider that this notion of carrying on to the finish in pouring rain once their chance had gone was a good idea.

jcm
johncoxmysteriously - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:

Nothing cheap about them. On the basis of your contradictory contributions to this thread, you seem to be someone who struggles to grasp the use of words as a vehicle for conveying meaning as opposed to one for relieving your feelings. In academic circles, this is generally a handicap. It's impressive that you were able to overcome that to the extent of achieving an MA.

jcm
Henry Iddon - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Evidently you thing it's some sort of amusing caper to make personal attacks about peoples academic achievements and or potential.

I'm all for a bit of heated debate and banter / pss taking on forums such as this but I think it's pretty cheap to make comments such as your recent ones regarding my writing and academic achievements.

If I were to put links to my writing on this page I would no doubt be accused of 'pulling rank' .

May I enquire how you manage to function professionally when discussing a matter with a person with whom you disagree, and without resorting to personal attacks?
Enty - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to andy guppy:

Right then Gups - It's the Race of the Falling Leaves this weekend. Won last year in the pissing rain by Joaquim Rodriguez (where have I heard that name before?)
So how are the Sky boys going to perform. No chance of any of them winning this hilly race so why should they even bother turning up?

E
andy guppy - on 03 Oct 2013
In reply to Enty:
Haha....if it rains they all might as well stay in the bus as well and keep warm as Froome/Wiggins wont win:]
Guppy

Nibbles for me.....he did finish the WC didn't he !!!....even in the rain and after a crash!!! ....defo RULE 5
Guppy
andy guppy - on 04 Oct 2013
In reply to Enty:
It will be really interesting to see if any of the British lads finish this weekend.......similar conditions to the WC are forecast!!!!...or will they have to try a little harder on Sunday as Sky pays the wages!!!!
Guppy
alan wilson on 04 Oct 2013
In reply to andy guppy: I was impressed by Uran crashing badly on that curve and still finishing in a good spot, so he might be a decent wager. Maybe the new WC will get things off to an early start unlike Giblets this year.

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