/ scary documentary about teens and pron

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girlymonkey - on 06 Oct 2013
maybe this is old news to some of you, but I found this pretty scary.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/porn-on-the-brain/4od#3584064

coinneach - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to girlymonkey:

I remember scary documentaries about " video nasties" and "snuff movies"
coinneach - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to coinneach:

First I've heard about "pron" though
Chambers - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to coinneach:
> (In reply to coinneach)
>
> First I've heard about "pron" though

Funnily enough, when I was writing a dissertation on the effects of free and easily accessible pornography on young people I mistakenly typed 'pron' into Google and got more results than I did when I typed 'porn'.

Speaks volumes, I think.

andyathome - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to girlymonkey:

I would say - don't worry too much :-)

The quality of the porn you are going to be able to access through the internet is likely to continue to improve as the web develops.
Chambers - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to andyathome: Are you suggesting that porn has improved?
girlymonkey - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to Chambers: I was just mentioning this typo to my husband and telling him about your search results. He said it's often spelt like that on purpose to avoid filters. Seems to me that filters should be smart enough for that!

To all you who are saying it's not that alarming - I think it really is. Some teenagers have no idea about real sex, they go into relationships thinking it's normal for sex to be violent, and designed to gratify the bloke rather than both parties. There was a guy in the programme who found porn more satisfying than sex, and when he spoke about sex it was all about him. It's not healthy!
Rob Exile Ward on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to girlymonkey: 'when he spoke about sex it was all about him.' Er ... I don't want to disillusion you or anything but sometimes that's how blokes are - when joshing with each other, at any rate.

How they are with their partners in private may, of course, be rather different.
Chambers - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to girlymonkey: Damn right it's not healthy. What we're talking about here is the objectification of the female form as something that can be bought and sold and treated like dirt. I accept that there are some women who appear to enjoy being f*cked up the poo-chute and adore being splatted in the face by fat bastards with enough to buy them, but I can't help thinking that those young girls are doing it for the money and not for the fun that's in it.
Chambers - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to Rob Exile Ward: Is that how you are, Rob?
girlymonkey - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to Chambers: totally agree with you, well put! This documentary was just looking at the affects on the teenage viewers, but the industry behind it is a whole other mess entirely.
girlymonkey - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to Rob Exile Ward: But that wasn't him joshing with friends, it was an apparently serious discussion with the journalist guy. Worth a watch to see if you think he is joshing, I didn't think he was. OK, so he seemed to be on the extreme end of the problems, but still pretty alarming.
BigBrother - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to girlymonkey: Good old Channel 4. As well as this anti porn programme they helpfully offer links to 'The joy of Teen Sex' 'Sex Toy Stories' etc etc
Kimono - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to Chambers:
> (In reply to coinneach)
> [...]
>
> Funnily enough, when I was writing a dissertation on the effects of free and easily accessible pornography on young people I mistakenly typed 'pron' into Google and got more results than I did when I typed 'porn'.
>
> Speaks volumes, I think.

entered into google
pron: 34,900,000
p0rn: 944,000,000

so, not volumes then
winhill - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to girlymonkey:
> (In reply to Chambers) the industry behind it is a whole other mess entirely.

I thought that's what the tissues are for?
Chambers - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to Kimono:
> (In reply to Chambers)
> [...]
>
> entered into google
> pron: 34,900,000
> p0rn: 944,000,000
>
> so, not volumes then

I wrote that particular piece ten years ago. Maybe kids learned how to spell 'porn' in the intervening decade. ;)

David Martin - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to girlymonkey:
> (In reply to Chambers) Some teenagers have no idea about real sex, they go into relationships thinking it's normal for sex to be violent,

No doubt some teenagers think its fine to drive at 100 in a 30mph zone because they watch fast cars on television, some think its possible to pile-drive people in to the ground because they watched a bit of WWF. But most people either watch sensible, if sometimes violent, viewing and make an objective justification on what is right and isn't. Should we ban tele too?

Same goes for porn. Believe me, the vast majority of porn is not violent. The apparent belief that its all about abuse and pedophilia seems to be nothing more than media hype.

As for porn being more satisfying than sex, so what if the guy feels that way?
David Martin - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to Chambers:
> (In reply to girlymonkey) Damn right it's not healthy. What we're talking about here is the objectification of the female form as something that can be bought and sold and treated like dirt.

Errr, is that porn in general? Or just a particular type of porn - and if so, how much of it?

Or should we just done our puritan's hats and find a witch to burn?
Chambers - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to David Martin:
> (In reply to girlymonkey)
> [...]


> Same goes for porn. Believe me, the vast majority of porn is not violent. The apparent belief that its all about abuse and pedophilia seems to be nothing more than media hype.

I violently and fiercely disagree with most of your post, but I'm just going to pick on this bit for now. Why, first of all, should I believe you? In fact, the moment you say 'believe me' I doubt the veracity of your assertions. My research is limited, to be sure, but my conclusions look pretty f*cking unassailable from where I'm sitting. How many people choose a career in the porn industry? How many parents want their children to grow up to become porn stars?

Look at it another way. When people are born into a warzone war is normalised, right?
>
> As for porn being more satisfying than sex, so what if the guy feels that way?

So what? Are you for real? The guy needs help. Actually, he needs a revolution. But that's another story.

John1923 - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to girlymonkey:

The following things are also true.

- Countries where porn is legal are also countries where women's rights are taken seriously.

- Porn is the only industry where women are paid more than men.

- Women founded and own many of the major porn production companies (In stark contrast to the tech industry that grew alongside porn)

- Men who watch porn are not more misogynistic than men who don't, the only correlations with misogyny are men who watch bondage or rape porn.

- As porn consumption exploded the number of rapes fell, this is true across the UK, the USA and Europe.

The empirical evidence suggests that porn consumption is probably harmless, and the growth of a legal pornography market has correlated with an improvement in woman's rights.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Chambers - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to David Martin:
> (In reply to Chambers)
> [...]
>
> Errr, is that porn in general? Or just a particular type of porn - and if so, how much of it?
>
> Or should we just done our puritan's hats and find a witch to burn?

Listen, I like watching people f*ck for fun. Just so we're clear about that. But porn is about people f*cking for money. And when you enter into that kind of wage-slave contract with the fat bastard market economics take over.

Chambers - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to John1923:
> (In reply to girlymonkey)
>
> The following things are also true.
>
> - Countries where porn is legal are also countries where women's rights are taken seriously.

Bullshit. Legal and illegal are irrelevant terms. Countries in which there is talk of anyone's rights are countries where people don't have rights. That'll be all countries, then.
>
> - Porn is the only industry where women are paid more than men.

Yeah. So what?
>
> - Women founded and own many of the major porn production companies (In stark contrast to the tech industry that grew alongside porn)

Not true. Capital is genderless.
>
> - Men who watch porn are not more misogynistic than men who don't, the only correlations with misogyny are men who watch bondage or rape porn.

Empirically non-verifiable.
>
> - As porn consumption exploded the number of rapes fell, this is true across the UK, the USA and Europe.

Evidence?
>
> The empirical evidence suggests that porn consumption is probably harmless, and the growth of a legal pornography market has correlated with an improvement in woman's rights.
And global warming is a myth, says the research funded by huge multinational corporations which benefit from the wholesale despoliation of our planet.

So, closing question: Would you be happy if your daughter was a porn star?
John1923 - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to Chambers:
> Bullshit. Legal and illegal are irrelevant terms. Countries in which there is talk of anyone's rights are countries where people don't have rights. That'll be all countries, then.
> And global warming is a myth, says the research funded by huge multinational corporations which benefit from the wholesale despoliation of our planet.
> So, closing question: Would you be happy if your daughter was a porn star?

I was going to post references, but these replies make me think that you are a troll.

In response to your closing question. I respect women, even if they are naked, and have sex. My daughter's body is her own, and she has a right to do whatever she wants with it.
John1923 - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to Chambers:
> Not true. Capital is genderless.

What does this mean?
Chambers - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to John1923: Yeah, motherf*cker. I'm a troll. I live under a bridge over a river and gobble up goats when they come trip-trapping over my bridge. Now answer the question.

Is it ok for people to be slaves if they consent to being slaves?
Chambers - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to John1923:
> (In reply to Chambers)
> [...]
>
> What does this mean?

It means that capital - wealth invested to make more wealth - doesn't have genitals.

aln - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Chambers: Shona! Welcome back.
aln - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Chambers:
> (In reply to John1923)
>
> Is it ok for people to be slaves if they consent to being slaves?

Yes.
Timmd on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to aln:
> (In reply to Chambers)
> [...]
>
> Yes.

Purely out of interest from a philosophical point of view, why yes?
Timmd on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to aln: Don't want to seem argumentative, just interested. (:-))
David Martin - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Chambers:

You for real?

How many choose a career in the porn industry? A fair number.
How many parents want their children growing up to be porn stars? Not many.

...and your point is? Not many parents want their kids to be binmen, peasant farmers, factory or service workers. Every parent wants little Rupert and Penelope to play the claranet and not the drums. Doesn't make drums bad. Doesn't make porn violent or damaging to those who watch it either. If its not good for teenagers perhaps teenagers shouldn't be watching it, or perhaps they should be having more mature discussions about sex with their kids....or perhaps that's damaging as well?

I guy who prefers porn to sex needs help? I presume anyone who diverts from your narrow view on sexuality also needs help (or perhaps curing)?
andrewmcleod - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to John1923:
> - Men who watch porn are not more misogynistic than men who don't, the only correlations with misogyny are men who watch bondage or rape porn.

Not sure that bondage porn (at least normal bondage porn which is quite emphatically consensual, often to the point of having a post-session interview) is a problem?
stroppygob - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Chambers:
> (In reply to John1923) Yeah, motherf*cker. I'm a troll. I live under a bridge over a river and gobble up goats when they come trip-trapping over my bridge. Now answer the question.
>
> Is it ok for people to be slaves if they consent to being slaves?

Outed yourself yet again Shona/Gudrun. Your not even good at trolling, you miserable little man.

JoshOvki on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to girlymonkey:

Some people on this thread should never look at the upperfloor website!
deepsoup - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to andrewmcleod:
> Not sure that bondage porn (at least normal bondage porn which is quite emphatically consensual, often to the point of having a post-session interview) is a problem?

I'm curious about that too. John - you mentioned sources. Can you post a link to whatever it is that says there's a correlation between bondage-related porn and misogyny? (And not between porn in general and misogyny.)
deepsoup - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to JoshOvki:
> Some people on this thread should never look at the upperfloor website!

<goes off to google internet filth..>
Well, certainly not while they're at work they shouldn't!
dunc56 - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to girlymonkey: Sorry I hate it when people say this - but I have not read all the thread.

Could you explain to me why the lad who "went to the toilet" had anything to do with porn. He saw a flash of some young lady and was aroused. Isn;t that what boys do ?
JoshOvki on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to deepsoup:

Ah...yeah. Not work safe people!
Chambers - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to David Martin:
> (In reply to Chambers)
>
> You for real?

Yep. And you need to do some research.
>
> How many choose a career in the porn industry? A fair number.

Needing cash is a choice, is it?

> How many parents want their children growing up to be porn stars? Not many.

My case is having a rest.
>
> ...and your point is? Not many parents want their kids to be binmen, peasant farmers, factory or service workers. Every parent wants little Rupert and Penelope to play the claranet and not the drums. Doesn't make drums bad. Doesn't make porn violent or damaging to those who watch it either. If its not good for teenagers perhaps teenagers shouldn't be watching it, or perhaps they should be having more mature discussions about sex with their kids....or perhaps that's damaging as well?

You don't think that objectifying people and turning them into commodities to be bought and sold is damaging?
>
> I guy who prefers porn to sex needs help? I presume anyone who diverts from your narrow view on sexuality also needs help (or perhaps curing)?

Your presumption makes a fool of you. Although it's very amusing to be accused of having a 'narrow' view of human sexuality.

Chambers - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Chambers: And, actually, you're wrong about the clarinet. I want my son to play bass.
Chambers - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to stroppygob:
> (In reply to Chambers)
> [...]
>
> Outed yourself yet again Shona/Gudrun. Your not even good at trolling, you miserable little man.

I'm actually six feet tall and thirteen stones of seething testosterone, mofo. What's your problem?

John1923 - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to deepsoup:

Here is a thorough review, which expresses the exasperation of social scientists when confronted with the anti porn mob.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160252709000715

As for the bondage paper. I read it a long time ago, and I only keep track of references relevant to work.

I had a quick Google and couldn't find it. I agree that some outlets highlight consent. It is possible that the paper's definition of bondage porn included some rape porn, and that skewed the results. But I really don't remember.
browndog33 - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Chambers: You've got one hell of a bad attitude!
stroppygob - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Chambers:
> (In reply to stroppygob)
> [...]
>
> I'm actually six feet tall and thirteen stones of seething testosterone, mofo. What's your problem?

My problem? I have a low tolerance of trolls like you. Tha's all.

MG - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to stroppygob: Whoever he is he is pretty clearly not Shona. Nor a troll. Odd maybe.
Enty - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to girlymonkey:

I'm lucky I'm not 13 years old now with all the top class porn available, I'd be blind with a right arm like Popeye - making do with a copy of Razzle with the pages stuck together was enough back in the early 80's.

E
Chambers - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to browndog33:
> (In reply to Chambers) You've got one hell of a bad attitude!

Thanks. That's the nicest thing anyone ever said to me on UKC.

Chambers - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to stroppygob:
> (In reply to Chambers)
> [...]
>
> My problem? I have a low tolerance of trolls like you. Tha's all.

Right. Just as well that I have a very high tolerance threshold of delusional mofos, then. ;)

Chambers - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to MG:
> (In reply to stroppygob) Whoever he is he is pretty clearly not Shona. Nor a troll. Odd maybe.

Dammit! How nice do I feel now? There was me thinking that life couldn't be any better under capitalism, and all of a sudden I'm being told that I'm both odd and have a bad attitude. It just gets better. Cheers, folks.

Chambers - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to John1923:
> (In reply to deepsoup)
>
> Here is a thorough review, which expresses the exasperation of social scientists when confronted with the anti porn mob.
>
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160252709000715

Not a very thorough review at all. Superficial, to say the least. But sociologists have never had anything useful to say.

girlymonkey - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to girlymonkey: Stop being so mean to each other! It was meant to be a discussion, not slagging match! (I know a lot of these threads go that way on here, but there's no need for it! If you were face to face I doubt you would be so rude to each other)
I think a particularly relevant point in the documentary was that teenagers want to push boundaries and be 'extreme'. So when many people on here were teenagers, getting hold of a dirty magazine was pushing boundaries and being extreme. This material was pretty tame compared to what kids will find now on the internet to push boundaries. In order to be extreme now, it gets pretty sick. So young teens are being exposed to hardcore porn before they have ever even kissed another person. This is where their sex education is coming from in many cases.
Obviously parents and schools need to have much more open discussion about sex and porn. Sadly, this seems to be something that many will be reluctant to do. (sex ed when I was at school was from a biology text book. Never once were STDs mentioned, we were never shown a condom, there was no chat about relationships. I hope it has moved on from that, but I'm sceptical!)
As for the porn industry - this is my biggest objection to porn. I'm fairly sure you would be hard pushed to find anyone who really wanted to be a porn star! People end up there because they are desperate for money. It is a hugely degrading life, and you are redundant when younger people come along. This article appear on the beeb a couple of weeks ago: http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/24172195. Aside from that, there's the number of people who will be forced into it. It will happen, as there is money to be made in it.
SI - profile removed on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to girlymonkey:
>Some teenagers have no idea about real sex, they go into relationships thinking it's normal for sex to be violent, and designed to gratify the bloke rather than both parties.

Well your expirences of sex are different to mine... Me and my mate were talking about this and we both discovered as we approached thirty that the girls we slept with prefer it 'rough'. We were both pretty suprised.

Fwiw I don't think porn is a bad thing, we're animals, we like to kill and f*ck - the more we simulate it the less likely we are to do it. If these women weren't porn stars many of them might be prostitutes (I can't see a difference) and that wouldn't really help anyone.

Any teenager who thinks every sexual encounter should end in a facial is unlikely to remain in the gene pool long, or to put it more sensibly they'll soon learn when they start doing it.

doz generale - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to girlymonkey:

> As for the porn industry - this is my biggest objection to porn. I'm fairly sure you would be hard pushed to find anyone who really wanted to be a porn star! People end up there because they are desperate for money. It is a hugely degrading life, and you are redundant when younger people come along. This article appear on the beeb a couple of weeks ago: http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/24172195. Aside from that, there's the number of people who will be forced into it. It will happen, as there is money to be made in it.

This is just not true, Most people in the Porn business in the UK and USA do it because they like being paid lots of money for having sex. Porn stars are attracted to the money but to say that they are all doing it because they are desperate for money is a joke. I would even hazard a guess that most porn actors enjoy what they do.
Ciro - on 07 Oct 2013
> As for the porn industry - this is my biggest objection to porn. I'm fairly sure you would be hard pushed to find anyone who really wanted to be a porn star!

A browse through http://www.reddit.com/r/gonewild might change your mind on that (NSFW obviously)

I do agree there's a problem with young people's attitudes to sex coming from hard core porn, however I think the crux of the matter is poor sex and relationship education.
David Martin - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to girlymonkey:
> As for the porn industry - this is my biggest objection to porn.
> I'm fairly sure you would be hard pushed to find anyone who really wanted to be a porn star!

Maybe true, but I'm sure not many people want to be binmen either. I taught English to a couple of bar-girls/prostitutes when working in SEA. Their perspective on the industry, which I would put on a lower level than the porn industry, was interesting. While not seeing it as a life-long job, it beat hands down working in the tuna canning and garment factories they had come from and was a choice they made so they could enjoy the trappings of a more luxurious life (i.e. handbags, phones, clothes). I imagine the porn stars may or may not like the job, it probably has its ups and downs, but perhaps they feel a lot better in that line of work than flipping burgers or pumping gas.

Whether we personally fancy the business or not surely doesn't mean we have the right to ban it, does it? Its certainly mutually exclusive of teenagers watching hard-core.

> People end up there because they are desperate for money. It is a hugely degrading life, and you are redundant when younger people come along.

That's the same for billions of people around the world. If you are concerned about people stuck in degrading and dangerous work I suggest you stop shopping at Primark, buy only ethically sourced goods and accept a 20% increase on all goods and services you buy.

All the points you mention are typical of so many jobs and the tone sounds very subjective...again, it has nothing to do with teenagers or absuive sex and just sounds like you believe porn is intrinsically wrong.

The stuff comes in all shapes and sizes, to believe its all abuse seems absurd.
John1923 - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Ciro:

Yea, that kind of amateur porn is killing off the professionals. Who can compete with free?

I also agree that we should teach our kids good sex education. So that they learn that porn is just an action movie, exaggerated to be fun to watch, and very unrealistic.
Chambers - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to girlymonkey:
> (In reply to girlymonkey) Stop being so mean to each other! It was meant to be a discussion, not slagging match! (I know a lot of these threads go that way on here, but there's no need for it! If you were face to face I doubt you would be so rude to each other)

They can't help themselves. The moment you start challenging their preconceived notions they start having knee-jerk reactions. You've just got to be patient.
Chambers - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to doz generale:
> (In reply to girlymonkey)
>
> [...]
>
> This is just not true, Most people in the Porn business in the UK and USA do it because they like being paid lots of money for having sex. Porn stars are attracted to the money but to say that they are all doing it because they are desperate for money is a joke. I would even hazard a guess that most porn actors enjoy what they do.

Really? You'd hazard a guess? I thought so. You might like to investigate the ways in which young girls usually enter the porn industry. And, incidentally, high salaries in the porn industry are rare. Mostly the money is just enough to cover drug habits and keep 'em coming back next week for a part in the latest sick fantasy of a fat middle-aged man.

Incidentally, I'm not anti-porn. I'm opposed to capitalism and the way in which it poisons and perverts every human impulse in the pursuit of profit.

Tall Clare - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to girlymonkey:
>
>
> As for the porn industry - this is my biggest objection to porn. I'm fairly sure you would be hard pushed to find anyone who really wanted to be a porn star!

A friend's mum runs a youth project in a run down area of a large regional city, and she *does* deal with young women who aspire to work in porn - they see it as glamorous and a way to earn good money. I was pretty surprised by that but if you're third generation unemployed, unskilled, and the only 'pretty'/rich women you see are in porn, then I imagine it makes sense.
David Martin - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Chambers:
> (In reply to doz generale)
> Incidentally, I'm not anti-porn. I'm opposed to capitalism and the way in which it poisons and perverts every human impulse in the pursuit of profit.

So we become a socialist utopia tomorrow and some nice lady notices that guys will offer things (I suppose yours would be a cashless society, so lets say an extra bread ration) in return for a few pictures of her and her best friend fvcking each other. How are you going to stop her?
Chambers - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to David Martin:
> (In reply to girlymonkey)
> [...]
>
> Maybe true, but I'm sure not many people want to be binmen either.

Really? Now that the refuse industry has been utterly monetised it's a pretty cushy job, and it pays well.

I taught English to a couple of bar-girls/prostitutes when working in SEA. Their perspective on the industry, which I would put on a lower level than the porn industry, was interesting. While not seeing it as a life-long job, it beat hands down working in the tuna canning and garment factories they had come from and was a choice they made so they could enjoy the trappings of a more luxurious life (i.e. handbags, phones, clothes).

Degrading yourself in one way is pretty much the same as degrading yourself in any other way. The point here is that workers are forced by economic necessity to sell their labour-power to employers in return for a wage or salary. Now if someone decides that it's better to get shagged up the poo-chute and exposed to sexually-transmitted diseases because it affords them the luxury of handbags and phones, I suspect that that says much more about how awful life is in factories than it does about how great a career in the porn industry is.


I imagine the porn stars may or may not like the job, it probably has its ups and downs, but perhaps they feel a lot better in that line of work than flipping burgers or pumping gas.

Perhaps? You imagine?
>
> Whether we personally fancy the business or not surely doesn't mean we have the right to ban it, does it? Its certainly mutually exclusive of teenagers watching hard-core.

No point in trying to ban it. If there's profit to be made the porn will be made.
>
> [...]
>
> That's the same for billions of people around the world. If you are concerned about people stuck in degrading and dangerous work I suggest you stop shopping at Primark, buy only ethically sourced goods and accept a 20% increase on all goods and services you buy.

This is a really daft argument. Why do you think that outlets like Primark exist? They exist because, in a world where the vast majority don't have access to the best that we can produce there's a huge market for cheap, shoddy shit. (And incidentally, that's a fairly good description of most pornography.)
>
> All the points you mention are typical of so many jobs and the tone sounds very subjective...again, it has nothing to do with teenagers or absuive sex and just sounds like you believe porn is intrinsically wrong.
>
> The stuff comes in all shapes and sizes, to believe its all abuse seems absurd.

It's only absurd if you think it's okay for a small minority of the population to exploit the majority.
andrewmcleod - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Chambers:
> [...]Mostly the money is just enough to cover drug habits and keep 'em coming back next week for a part in the latest sick fantasy of a fat middle-aged man.
>
> Incidentally, I'm not anti-porn.

Really not anti-porn? :P

Because you sound pretty anti-porn, and assuming all porn stars are drug addled is pretty judgemental (not a terribly socialist attitude). As is assuming all porn users are fat, and that all porn fantasies are 'sick'... Is it possible that some women actually like having sex in a way you don't really approve of? Or perhaps you think the 'weaker gender' needs protection from abusive male pornographers?

I'm not arguing that there isn't a minority or majority of porn stars who are convinced into it and don't really enjoy it, but in a world that really did have a glorious socialist utopia, or whatever, there would still be people making porn for free.

In reply to Chambers:
> I imagine the porn stars may or may not like the job, it probably has its ups and downs,

Indeed :P
ice.solo - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to girlymonkey:

as a teenager i often thought the kids not into porn were just as weird as the kids who were too into it. from what i recall, their reasons were usually related to religion or a disgust/shame at intimacy and the human form.

porn nowadays is much less seedy. some of the content is maybe evolved onwards just like everything else, but pre-internet porn for teenagers was the same a drugs, requiring a contraband system to get hold of it, usually involving dodgy adults at some stage. it certainly wasnt free. like the silk road thing going on now, the web took out the middle men who bolstered the numbers of dodgy people involved.

as a kid i think the process of procurement was more damaging than the material. in fact, i wonder how things were for gay kids, in an age when porn for their turn-ons was hard to find. must have been hard not feeling catered to.
ripper - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to ice.solo:
> (In reply to girlymonkey)
>
>
> pre-internet porn for teenagers was the same a drugs, requiring a contraband system to get hold of it, usually involving dodgy adults at some stage. it certainly wasnt free. as a kid i think the process of procurement was more damaging than the material.

Apart from good old hedgerow porn, of course...
ice.solo - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to ripper:
> (In reply to ice.solo)
> [...]
>
> Apart from good old hedgerow porn, of course...

A blank spot in my knowledge of porn, whats hedgerow porn? Dare i ask?
ripper - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to ice.solo: why it's the cuddly, quaint old system of free porn distribution that relied on finding abandoned copies of publications like Fiesta in hedgerows, on grass verges, in the roadside gutter, etc. Probably best not to think about how they came (sorry) to be there...
KellyKettle - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to ice.solo: Pornographic material discarded or secreted somewhere outside...
Ciro - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to ripper:

The alternative free porn distribution system was shoplifting.

I'm fairly sure getting it from the internet is healthier.
Knitted Simian - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Chambers:

I think you spunked your right to occupy the moral high ground when you called someone a motherf*cker.


The dark side of porn is about power, and the abuse of power is something seen on the right and the left of politics - it's not something solely the preserve of capitalism.

Personally I think the toddlers and tiaras, Miley Cyrus, the Daily Mail side bar and the way society forces women (and men) to adhere to some unattainable idealised stereotype is more deleterious. Much of this is not mysogeny.
Cú Chullain - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to ice.solo:
> (In reply to ripper)
> [...]
>
> A blank spot in my knowledge of porn, whats hedgerow porn? Dare i ask?

Hedgerow porn, also known as ‘grumbleweed’, was in the 70s and 80s a common feature of rural area carpark’s and woodland, typically it would consist of a few battered pages of Razzle or Fiesta, or on rare occasions if you hit the jackpot, a full intact magazine that had not been molested by badgers or become victim of inclement weather. Such magazines typically featured dirty stories, adverts for niche products and a photo feature of ‘Dawn, 28, from Essex’ who was typically a large Rubenesque housewife with large non-cosmetically enhanced breasts and bush like Terry Waite’s allotment. Upon the finding of such ‘literature’ your status around school was enhanced immeasurably as all the other scamps would offer sweets, the Beano or their pocket money to have a peek at the bongo mag. Of course this status of porn baron was often short lived as other wildcat prospectors would invariable find their own stash of jazz mags and open up competition. Summer months when the harvest of magazines reached its zenith total market situation was a common state of affairs leading to aggressive porn wars.
ripper - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Cú Chullain: Excellent - but unless I'm very much mistaken I'm pretty sure Dawn, 28, was in fact from Doncaster.
ice.solo - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Cú Chullain:

wow. i had no idea. no wonder hedgerows are so vigorously protected, playing such a large part of many peoples formative years.

points for the best written post in months as well.
Simon4 - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Cú Chullain: Ah, the romance of the dear, dead days before the internet!

Your so-evocative post is almost a sort of poetry manqué.
Cú Chullain - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Simon4:

Kids have it easy these days
MJ - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to ripper:

why it's the cuddly, quaint old system of free porn distribution that relied on finding abandoned copies of publications like Fiesta in hedgerows, on grass verges, in the roadside gutter, etc.

I found some whilst walking the dog a couple of months ago. Was casually flicking through the contents, when some other walkers went past. I gave them a cheery hello, they just looked at me blankly and carried on walking.
JohnnyW - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Simon4:
> (In reply to Cú Chullain) Ah, the romance of the dear, dead days before the internet!
>
> Your so-evocative post is almost a sort of poetry manqué.

Ditto. Very well-written. I am of that vintage, and always wondered where it came from? Surely folks could find a more secure, weather-proof hiding place!? :)
Enty - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to ice.solo:
> (In reply to ripper)
> [...]
>
> A blank spot in my knowledge of porn, whats hedgerow porn? Dare i ask?

Similar to roadside porn. Often seen when out on your bike. Was a great article by Tony Bell in Cycling Weekly many years ago.

E
ripper - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to girlymonkey: as someone (on here?) said a while ago, I think this was a service provided by local authorities back in the day. It's probably been contracted out now, which would explain why the level of provision has dropped off so woefully.
woolsack - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Ciro:
> (In reply to ripper)
>
> The alternative free porn distribution system was shoplifting.
>
> I'm fairly sure getting it from the internet is healthier.

^^Can't mention that without Ian Dury's classic 'Razzle in my Pocket'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hT5iIAe43Y
Dax H - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Cú Chullain: Best post ever and it brings back so many memories.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Chambers - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to andrewmcleod:
> (In reply to Chambers)
> [...]
>
> Really not anti-porn? :P

Really. I've already made it clear that I like watching people f*ck.
>
> Because you sound pretty anti-porn...

Not if you pay attention to what I'm saying

> and assuming all porn stars are drug addled is pretty judgemental (not a terribly socialist attitude).

Not what I said. Don't become another SirChasm with his reductio ad absurdum nonsense.


As is assuming all porn users are fat, and that all porn fantasies are 'sick'...

Again, not what I said.


>Is it possible that some women actually like having sex in a way you don't really approve of?

Nah. I have no disapproval of any act performed by two or more people so long as it's consensual.


>Or perhaps you think the 'weaker gender' needs protection from abusive male pornographers?

I don't consider females to be a weaker gender.


>
> I'm not arguing that there isn't a minority or majority of porn stars who are convinced into it and don't really enjoy it

Good. 'Cos that'd make you really foolish. But we're not talking about 'convinced', here, we're talking about people being coerced. It's not porn per se that I oppose, but coercion.

>but in a world that really did have a glorious socialist utopia, or whatever, there would still be people making porn for free.

I'm not advocating utopia, just a practical alternative to capitalism that@ll provide a decent framework for people to develop and fulfil themselves, and yeah, there'll be lots of porn, if thast's what you want to call it. As my comrade Lenny pointed out elsewhere, he don't like that term. And, indeed, I prefer the term erotica. But whatever you want to call it in a new form of society, it won't be predicated upon the making of a profit.

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