/ Good, safe, grit E3s

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Owen W-G - on 07 Oct 2013
Just come back from first grit trip in about 18 months and surprised myself but getting a good few of the apparently harder E2s done - Regent Street, Black Hawk Bastion and Cave Eliminate.

Give me suggestions for some E3s to have a go at. I've done Long John's Slab, San Melas, Telli, Parallel Piped (surely only E1!) and Jetrunner. Not really a safe selection, mostly they got done before I became a dad.

Ideal route would have hard, well-pro moves above a clean fall out zone and a decent rest both before and after crux! Anything fitting that description?

Asp is on the to do list. Time for tea has been removed.
johncoxmysteriously - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Owen W-G:

King Kong and Rat Scabies.

However, these are only worth trying if you're good at mantelshelfing.

jcm
conorcussell - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Owen W-G: Tippler Direct, Wall of Horrors, Western Front, Big Greeny, Grand Illusion
Coel Hellier - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Owen W-G:

Boot Hill (Cratcliffe), safe fallout zone.

Appaloosa Sunset (Five Clouds), safe enough on the crux.

Waterloo Sunset (Gardoms), run out but safe enough fallout zone

Improbability Drive (Plantation), hard crux but safe.

Mike Highbury - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Owen W-G:
> Time for tea has been removed.

Why? Because you've done it or it's too soft or you don't fancy climbing those bloody cracks again?
Owen W-G - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Owen W-G:

Thanks all
Hugh Cottam - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Owen W-G:

Emerald Crack (Chatsworth)
Gates of Mordor (Millstone)
Twikker (Millstone)
The Asp (Stanage)
Boulevard (Lawrencefield)
Smear Test (The Roaches)
The Grader (Wilton)
Comedian (Hen Cloud)
Electric Circus (New Mills Tor)
Mangled Digit (Running Hill Pits)
Supercrack (Wilton)
Time for Tea (Millstone)

ERH - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Owen W-G:

Get up here to Almscliff and do the big 3!

Great Western is laced with gear (for an E3!)
Wall of Horrors and Big Greeny are both safe, but you can have some air time
1poundSOCKS - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to ERH: Western Front?
ERH - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to ERH:

Oh, and fingerknacker Crack at Caley is beautiful!
ERH - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

HAHAHAAH! I'm an idiot -yeah :)
Jonny2vests - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Owen W-G:

> Ideal route would have hard, well-pro moves above a clean fall out zone and a decent rest both before and after crux! Anything fitting that description?

I don't think Twikker has been mentioned yet, great fun, rests before cruxes, feels long for grit. The peg with tat on the first overhang is (was?) worthless.
Coel Hellier - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:

> I don't think Twikker has been mentioned yet, ...

Isn't it also quite hard for E3? The first overhang, and into the layback, is hard, go-ey and run-out, and the second crux is desperate. Not quite a route for someone finding their way into E3.
Cake - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:
He did say he wanted hard moves.

Also, Emerald Crack (Chatswoth)is safe and brutal, I believe. But I'm not getting on it any time soon.

Cake
Coel Hellier - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Cake:

> He did say he wanted hard moves.

Well yes, but people pushing into E3 who ask for "hard moves" generally mean that, because the moves are hard, the gear will be good and the hard bit won't be sustained and strenuous. Generally they are not asking for it to be hard, strenuous and run-out and at the upper limit of the grade!
DubyaJamesDubya - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:

Sentinal Crack?
Adam Long - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:

Twikker isn't really a hard E3, its miles off being E4. More like two tough E2s with a crouch in a cave to rest in between. Don't remember a run-out, though I always carry tricams & small tcus on quarried grit.
Coel Hellier - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Adam Long:

This gives some support to the idea that it is a tough E3. http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10746

Whether it is runout depends on how much you trust the old peg, and how much strength you have to hang around on the overhang and layaway moves immediately after it.
Jon Stewart - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Owen W-G:

Bit left field this one, and bound to be ridiculed, but I think Censor is quite safe. It has small gear, you can place a few bits, then committing moves above it with a safe fall zone. You get another piece in the steep climbing and then you're on easy ground (albeit with no gear, but it's 4c - you can't really moan about unprotected 4c on an E3, surely?).
alasdair19 on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Owen W-G: Curbar!! cause it's safe and once persuaded that the E2s are hard hard hard you won't be dissapointed when you dog them...

eldar crack is amazing as is left eliminate, watch out for the e2 on the far right of the main bit its really hard.

really keen to try soyuz down graded in the guide because its not hard enough to be e2 at curbar!!!

emerald crack is on my go back to when I'm feeling good really enjoyed seconding it.
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Dave Warburton - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Owen W-G:

Atomic - Slipstones
abcdefg - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Owen W-G:
> ... surprised myself but getting a good few of the apparently harder E2s done - Regent Street, Black Hawk Bastion and Cave Eliminate.
>
> Give me suggestions for some E3s to have a go at ...

You're bidding against yourself, Sir! 'Black Hawk Bastion' *is* E3.
Jonny2vests - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:

Depends what you're up for. I agree its has tough cruxes, I also agree that its miles off E4 or even sandbag status. As Adam says, you could almost have a kip before each of the cruxes, which balances it out nicely. If you get lucky with the cruxes (or have a bit of beta), it's piss, one of those routes you can lap once you know.

Run out? Maybe a bit, you might be able to mitigate that by being belayed from the big ledge rather than the ground.

If you want hard, just down the way is Saville Street, which is a bugger. And Gates of Mordor the other way is a pump fest with a sucker punch at the end.
DubyaJamesDubya - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to abcdefg:
> (In reply to Owen W-G)
> [...]
>
> You're bidding against yourself, Sir! 'Black Hawk Bastion' *is* E3.

But it shouldn't be. E2 5c is fair if you get the moves right.
TimB - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> (In reply to Owen W-G)
>
> Bit left field this one, and bound to be ridiculed, but I think Censor is quite safe. It has small gear, you can place a few bits, then committing moves above it with a safe fall zone. You get another piece in the steep climbing and then you're on easy ground (albeit with no gear, but it's 4c - you can't really moan about unprotected 4c on an E3, surely?).

The top is OK, but my memory of the bottom half involves half-in RPs, a single Friend half that barely held it's own weight and the certain conviction that falling off the crux would be one of the worst ideas ever.

I am prepared to accept that I muffed up the small gear lower down, and missed something on the steeper bit before the crux rockover, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone looking for stuff at the safer end of E3, brilliant though it is.

However, I'd add The Swan (Roaches) as "scary but safe", maybe Tippler Direct at Stanage (although I haven't done this), Boot Hill at Cratcliffe, Stormbringer at Gardoms if you can mantle, Crocodile at Gardoms for something slightly bolder, Waterloo Sunset at Gardoms for something bolder still (but still less dangerous than Censor), Rainy Day Blues at Turning Stone and The Logic Book at Stanage if you're feeling technically competant.

Dave Garnett - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to TimB:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
> [...]
Stormbringer at Gardoms if you can mantle,


I agree that it's safe in that you won't go far, but that mantle is desperate and the shin damage horrible! I thought I was pretty good at mantleshelves but maybe I needed longer legs.
TimB - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Dave Garnett:

I thought that shorter legs would have helped!

I did manage to escape without any shin damage, reversed to the ground and I am now resting between attempts (so far for about 15 years, but it is quite tiring).
Coel Hellier - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to TimB:

> I am now resting between attempts (so far for about 15 years, but it is quite tiring).

!
johncoxmysteriously - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to TimB:

>and The Logic Book at Stanage if you're feeling technically competant.

No shit. I thought this was impossible. I also thought it was E2 6a in my guidebook at the time, although it may have received a long overdue upgrade.

jcm
Jon Stewart - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to TimB:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
> [...]
>
> The top is OK, but my memory of the bottom half involves half-in RPs, a single Friend half that barely held it's own weight and the certain conviction that falling off the crux would be one of the worst ideas ever.

For the crucial gear I placed a good small wire and a good small cam. I could have placed more too. The cam on the steep bit seemed fine to me. Often I think on routes like this the placements get significantly better over time.

In general I only do scary E3s on grit (the protected ones are too hard) but this one I thought was a good balance of gear, fall-zone and excellent, reasonable climbing.
Jonny2vests - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Owen W-G:

Boulevard and Billy Whizz? The latter being the harder of the two, yes it is E3.
Jonny2vests - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Owen W-G:

Traveller in Time at Ramshaw is brilliant and safe, especially with a size 6 camalot.
Si dH - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:
On Censor...are you able to place the small gear pre-crux from a comfy position, or else go up to it and reverse fairly easily if you get pumped...or are you already fully committed and on steep ground before you find out whether you trust it?
Thanks
Dave Garnett - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:

> (In reply to Owen W-G)
>
> Traveller in Time at Ramshaw is brilliant and safe, especially with a size 6 camalot.

Yes, and the mantel is a sight easier than Stormbringer!
Dave Garnett - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:

> (In reply to Owen W-G)
>
> Boulevard and Billy Whizz? The latter being the harder of the two, yes it is E3.

Really? You're inspiring me to give Boulevard a try. I thought BW was hard onsight.
Si dH - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Dave Garnett:
Boulevard is a bit technically harder and more sustained but is less pumpy and doesn't have such a stopper move when you are pumped at the top. Not much in it overall but I'd just about go with the given grades.
Si dH - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to TimB:
How safe really are The Swan and Crocodile...? They both look awesome but the Swan looks ridiculously bold and Ive heard the gear on Crocodile is shocking...
Robert Durran - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Hugh Cottam:
> (In reply to Owen W-G)
>
> Emerald Crack (Chatsworth)
> Gates of Mordor (Millstone)
> Twikker (Millstone)
> The Asp (Stanage)
> Boulevard (Lawrencefield)
> Smear Test (The Roaches)
> The Grader (Wilton)
> Comedian (Hen Cloud)
> Electric Circus (New Mills Tor)
> Mangled Digit (Running Hill Pits)
> Supercrack (Wilton)
> Time for Tea (Millstone)

I think it is no accident that 8 of those are on quarried grit!
Surely for a "proper" gnarly grit E3 tick, it's got to be on natural grit, otherewise you might as well be in Pembroke or somewhere ;-)

metal arms on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Si dH:
> (In reply to TimB)
> Ive heard the gear on Crocodile is shocking...

I fell off onto the cam and it held which was nice. It doesn't look particularly inspiring though.
Hugh Cottam - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Robert Durran:

I think you'll find some of the best routes at E3 are on quarried grit. Which incidentally is nothing like Pembroke. What have you done on quarried grit Rob?
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Robert Durran - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Hugh Cottam:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)

> I think you'll find some of the best routes at E3 are on quarried grit.

Yes indeed, but it's a completely different beast to natural grit.

> Which [qurried grit] incidentally is nothing like Pembroke.

I don't know.....it's got holds and gear.

> What have you done on quarried grit Rob?

A lot more above E2 than on natural grit!
Jon Stewart - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Si dH:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
> On Censor...are you able to place the small gear pre-crux from a comfy position, or else go up to it and reverse fairly easily if you get pumped...or are you already fully committed and on steep ground before you find out whether you trust it?
> Thanks

Easily reversible. It's one of those where I went up and placed a bit, came back, went up placed a bit more and checked the first bit, then came all the way down to the ground for a think about whether it was safe. Decided it was, then went up and committed, and was delighted to find more gear on the way up. Nice route, climbs on proper holds and everything, no gritstone unfathomableness.
Coel Hellier - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Si dH:

> ... but the Swan looks ridiculously bold

If, in addition to the rope on your left, you have a rope going rightwards to the tree (and possibly a second belayer), to thus hold a swing, then it's only fairly bold, not ridiculously bold. Mid-E3 perhaps.
Alex@home - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:

does anyone ever do it by going up the mincer, placing gear under the roof and then climbing back down before going up the swan?
it's been on my list for a while and i was thinking of trying it that way, but is the tree just a simpler way of achieving the same thing?
w.pettet-smith - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Owen W-G: ontos at bamford fits the bill perfectly.bit of an unsung gem. severe, then two hard (6b!) moves with perfect bomb shelter and fall zone, then happy vs romping. also another vote for king kong.
and the swan is not safe or soft. smear test is though, longish fall but good fall zone. also the strangler at stannage worth a punt. given e4 but as safe as the others mentioned and not much harder. great arrete climbing to boot and piss for the tallish. easier than archangel, telli, boulevard and twikker in my book.
oh and flute of hope and rasp direct!
getting me excited thinking about all these great routes!
w.pettet-smith - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to w.pettet-smith: and another thing! fading star at stanage. weird 6b mantel, good gear, good zone. nicer and safer to to it with the saliva start out right
Jonny2vests - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Will & Coel:

Is The Swan as reachy as it looks?
Jonny2vests - on 09 Oct 2013
In reply to Dave Garnett:
> (In reply to Jonny2vests)
>
> [...]
>
> Really? You're inspiring me to give Boulevard a try. I thought BW was hard onsight.

Well, I onsighted it, but I didn't onsight BW. Shortarses like me have a tough time with BW, I still can't do it clean everytime.
TimB - on 09 Oct 2013
In reply to Si dH:
> (In reply to TimB)
> How safe really are The Swan and Crocodile...? They both look awesome but the Swan looks ridiculously bold and Ive heard the gear on Crocodile is shocking...

As someone else says, The Swan isn't soft, but with a sling on the tree it felt exciting rather than OMGIMUSTNOTFALLOFF dangerous. I did however get monstrously pumped and ended up hanging of a friend in the cracks.

I don't remember the gear in Crocodile in detail (again, this was over 10 years ago) so it can't have been that bad. It felt safer than Waterloo Sunset, but not by much.
Coel Hellier - on 09 Oct 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:

> Is The Swan as reachy as it looks?

I'm medium height and didn't find any reachy moves. (I'm not sure where you think "looks" reachy; if it's the step up at the end of the traverse, that's done on a pebble foothold, and is not particularly reachy.)
Jonny2vests - on 09 Oct 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:
> (In reply to Jonny2vests)
>
> [...]
>
> I'm medium height and didn't find any reachy moves. (I'm not sure where you think "looks" reachy; if it's the step up at the end of the traverse, that's done on a pebble foothold, and is not particularly reachy.)

From memory, it looked as though you end up traversing with hands and feet in different horizontal breaks. From the ground, the distance between them looked reachy, but I know appearances can be misleading.
Dave Garnett - on 09 Oct 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:

You could always try Up the Swanee, which foot traverses the handholds!

I should add that I was put off the Swan after watching someone gibbering after reaching the crack, where I had assumed it was all over. I often look at and wonder though. Maybe Coel can pursuade me!
Coel Hellier - on 09 Oct 2013
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> I was put off the Swan after watching someone gibbering after reaching the crack, where I had assumed it was all over.

The crack is fairly tricky, but you can slam in some jams and some cams so you shouldn't be "gibbering".
Dave Warburton - on 02 Nov 2013
In reply to Owen W-G: And also E3/4 borderline The Great Santini at Dovestone nr Skipton - well worth popping in for that and Full Throttle (which is super).
craggyjohn - on 02 Nov 2013
In reply to Owen W-G: why has noone mentioned Censer at Stanage - much better gear than the guidebook indicates, and only run out a bit at the top, when it doesn't matter
footwork - on 02 Nov 2013
In reply to Owen W-G: Censor has been mentioned.

Pathos - really only E2
Charming Crack - definitely E3 ;)
Tippler direct - hard

As was said above, the big 3 at the cliff are really good.
silo - on 02 Nov 2013
In reply to Owen W-G: Chee dale has lot of good E3's
Wizzy - on 02 Nov 2013
In reply to Owen W-G:

Western front
Wall of horrors
The big Greeny

All hard for the grade, but there are safe

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