UKC

One that got me scratching my head.

What if an entity containing a possessive apostrophe takes ownership/possession of something else?

e.g. "The Trophy of Johnstone's Paint" should be pronounced "The Johnstoneses Paint Trophy" shouldn't it?

In reply to Chris Harris:


I think a double apostrophe would be technically correct, albeit almost unforgivably anoraky.

So if Birmingham City's ground needed a new paint-job, you might say "The painting of St Andrew's' south stand started this morning"...

In reply to Chris Harris:

technically yes but that's a bad example - you wouldn't use a possessive when talking about the Carling's Cup, the or the Milk's Cup as it used to be, or the Capital One's Cup or whatever it is now.

In reply to ripper:

Ah yes, the old attributive vs possessive debate... is "Champions League" morphologically analogous to "Sharps Bucket" or to "Ladies' Toilet"? Is it a league for putting champions in, or a league that belongs to champions?

(The latter, if you ask me.)

In reply to Chris Harris:

No. The trophy is associated with the paint, which happens to be associated with Johnstone. It would therefore be Johnstone's Paint's Trophy. If it were associated with Johnstone it would be Johnstone's Trophy and the paint wouldn't get a look in, unless it were Johnstone's Paint and Trophy.

It might be a paint trophy (i.e. a picture), in which case it would be Johnstone's paint trophy.


Johnstones would be a plural of Johnstone. If they had a trophy it would be the Johnstones' Trophy. If the name was Johnstones (as in Jones), then one variant of the plural would be Johnstoneses (the other just being the Johnstones). If they has a trophy, then it would be the Johnstoneses' Trophy.

In reply to Tim Chappell:
I would call that a Champion League, but I am a dimwit.

In reply to nniff:

As per my prior post, I politely disagree. The Johnstone's Paint Trophy could refer to a trophy in any sport/genre/pastime/discipline, that is is sponsored by Johnstone's Paint. If Johnstone's Paint sponsored more than one sport/genre/pastime/discipline then I grant you that more distinction/resolution would be required.

In reply to Chris Harris:

I'm surprised that people are so baffled by this. It really isn't a problem for the simple reason that 'Paint Trophy' becomes a compound noun, similar to that used in newspaper headlines every single day. The people to whom the paint trophy pertains are called Johnstone, so here the possessive remains Johnstone's.

In the present day and age, one can even imagine some people wanting to drop that single apostrophe, just as Waterstones have with their bookshops. It would then be a triple compound noun/name, 'Johnstones Paint Trophy'

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

That is what I said.

Are you sure that Waterstone's have done that? How recently did that change? The change in signage may not have reached my branch. I have met some of the Waterstone family and perhaps the ownership has spread across them so that "Waterstone's" is less accurate than "Waterstones'" by which point I would not blame anyone for dropping that final apostrophe / quotation mark

In reply to Blue Straggler:

The Waterstones apostrophe appears to have been missing for a couple of years (January 2011) unless it reappeared again.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=waterstones+apostrophe&ie=UTF-8&o...

In reply to Carolyn:

Thanks. I have not looked at a Waterstones sign for a while.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Yes, and a fuss was made about it in some literary/publishing circles.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
The Waterstones storm was quite amusing, and worked well as a PR wheeze. Mark my words, in a hundred years we'll all wonder what the fuss was over apostrophes, they'll slowly disappear, like the stops in eg and ie, as we all get less and less used to 'correct' usage. Go on, prove me wrong

In reply to SteveRi:

I'll prove you right with my science fiction novel (being published next month) set in 2037, in which all apostrophes have disappeared.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Damn, thats good proof!

In reply to Carolyn:

I checked my local branch whilst I was walking through the town centre on Tuesday evening (en route to the cinema to watch "Prisoners", which was good). The apostrophe is there! Provincial East Midlands market town. Our "Waterstone's" only opened in around 2007-8. Maybe they are allowed to keep the apostrophe for a minimum period, and it will disappear next year. This at least explains why I had to ask about it earlier in the thread.