UKC

Hello

In an attempt to bag a 10k PB this winter I am following a (HR-based) training plan for the first time (a free one courtesy of Garmin Connect).

All is going well, but one of the workouts for next week is as follows:

1. Warm Up
2. 7 min - Zone 4 -Threshold Pace
3. 3 min - Zone 4 - 10k Pace
4. 3 min - Recover
5. Repeat x3, cool down

Now to my simple mind, Zone 4 is Zone 4 is Zone 4, but from the above this cannot be the case (unless it just means 10 min - Zone 4, in which case surely it would just say that).

My guess is that Threshold Pace relates to high end Zone 4, while 10k Pace refers to low end Zone 4, but is there anyone out there with a good knowledge of HR Zones who can confirm whether this is correct. If I am wrong, what should I be doing for this interval session.

Thanks

In reply to fiendoidel: http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/running/determining-functional-thres...

threshold is the maximal running pace an individual can sustain for an effort of approximately 45 - 60 min in duration

Presumably you have a target pace for 10k

In reply to fiendoidel: considering the default zones are 10% bands I would think the zone 4 in that workout is a guide. A very rough one at that.

As Grumpy says your threshold is your 60min pace. In a lot if runners that IS their 10k pace.

If you go to www.mcmillanrunning.com you'll get a pace calculator/race predictor. Put in your recent 10k time. Look for the vLT figure that's your Lactate Threshold (LT) pace.

In reply to DancingOnRock: h...

In reply to DancingOnRock:

Ah, that explains things. The McMillan site was very useful, thanks.

So if 10k time > 60 mins, then Threshold Pace is faster than 10k Pace
and if 10k time < 45 mins, then Threshold Pace is slower than 10k Pace

My current PB is 48:51 (run in training) and my goal is to get to 44:59, which I hope to manage with 4 runs/week for the next 12 weeks. Now I just need to decide whether to run that session using my (McMillan-calculated) current paces (vLT-4:58 min/km and 10k-4:53 min/km) or my target paces (vLT-4:36 and 10k-4:30). I think I will probably (have to) go for somewhere in between.

Can't say I'm looking forward to the 3 x 10mins of the close-to-puking running that is required.

Thanks again.

In reply to fiendoidel: The exercise only works if your 10k pace is less than vLT. You're doing 7mins at vLT which as you can easily sustain this for an hour is not a problem. This doesn't mean that after an hour of running at that pace you crash and burn, it means that after an hour your lactate levels start to rise.

You're only running 3mins at 10k pace which is going to be about 600m.

The exercise is designed to improve your lactate threshold.

In reply to fiendoidel:

Train on pace not HR, 4 x 1 mile with 3 minute recovery at 10% faster than 10k target, 10 milers at 10% slower than 10k target. Lots of steady running.

In reply to DancingOnRock:


Hmmm, I thought that the idea of LT was that you did crash and burn after 1 hour. i.e. It is an effort level at which Lactate rises from the off, but at a rate that only results in that level of exertion becoming unsustainable after 60 mins, due to the accumulation of lactate. Maybe, I'll go away and do some more reading.

I guess the take-home message is that I should run pretty hard for 7 mins (bottom end of Zone 4) and then run even harder for 3 mins (top end of Zone 4).

In reply to The New NickB:

Yes, but I guess that only really works if you have the option of flat runs. I have difficultly finding anything that doesn't go up and down (not huge hills, but enough to add or subtract 1 min/km to my pace), which is why I like HR as it gives me a better guide to effort level.

In reply to fiendoidel:

Where do you live? 1 minute a k is a huge amount.

In reply to The New NickB:

Just outside Cardiff.

Maybe I just don't try hard enough when running uphill - I tend to sit on a relatively constant HR of about 150-155bpm on most runs, regardless of terrain. But I reckon that 1min/km is probably about right for the difference between running up and down a noticeable slope of any distance.

Given that my usual steady flat pace is probably about 5min/km, 30secs up or down from that is only plus or minus 10%. I am comfortable saying that I probably run 10% slower up a hill than on the flat and 10% faster down a hill than on the flat.

In reply to fiendoidel:

Right I follow, a minute between fastest and slowest pace on a typical run rather than a minute a k between flat and undulating hills. It's harder on the hills, but it's your average that you need to think about. I live in the south Pennines so reasonably hilly as well.

In reply to fiendoidel: it doesn't matter about the gradients for the paces because that's already taken into account with your test 10k at race pace.

In reply to The New NickB:

I find it hard to judge pace and particularly average pace because I find the feedback quite slow (effectively one data point every km, rather than the constant monitoring afforded by HR). That situation has probably come about because I have become so used to constantly checking my watch, rather than running on feel. I'll try doing some of my steady / long runs based on pace (leaving my HR monitor at home) and see how I get on. Thanks

In reply to DancingOnRock:

Yes, in that it gives me a pretty good idea of overall pacing.

No, in that I purposfully ran the test run in the flattest part of Bournemouth (along the promenade), so negliable elevation loss/gain - so my vLT figure based on that run won't help me to judge if my pace is too high/low when I am halfway up a 1km slope of 2%.

In any event, I think I have decided that, for my level of running, I am probably trying to be too precise and, on my original question, I will just go out and run like a B@~st@rd (that's Zone 4 btw) for the full ten minutes.

In reply to fiendoidel: You need to understand what HR training is all about and the purpose of each run.

Intervals as you describe them there are to work on your vLT. Running flat out wont do that. Run your 10k and note your HR then use that HR on your hilly runs for your 10k.

Go back on the flat and run 30mins at your vLT. Note your HR and use that for the LT part of your hilly run.

In reply to DancingOnRock:

Thanks for the response and apologies for the few additional qestions - I am quite interested in this and would like to get it right:


Could you recommend a good source of information on this?


Does this 10k have to be in a race setting? From the little reading I have already done I understand that there is a difference between what one can sustain during a race versus a training run (even if you convince yourself that you are trying as hard as you would during a race)


Does that mean use the HR as measured above (whether that be a race or a training run) as the HR for the 10K pace section of the interval in my original post?


This sounds similar of a LTHR test (average HR over the last 20 mins of a 30 min all-out time trial with no pace or HR guidence). Would I be better off just doing a LTHR test to get an accurate figure based on my current fitness? If not, do I used the vLT that is estimated by the McMillan site, which is based on a run I did in June, or do I use the vLT for my target of 45mins?

Thanks

In reply to The New NickB: 10% of 10k pace is still quick. I do 10k around 5:30-5:35 min miling so 10% of that is about my marathon pace, which I wouldn't classs as steady running.

I'd ignore HR and just run, get the miles in first.

In reply to IainRUK:

I wouldn't class it as steady either, it is hard graft over 10 miles, took me to a big 10k PB. Lots of steady running as well.

In reply to The New NickB: Ahh OK..

"10 milers at 10% slower than 10k target. Lots of steady running."

I read that as 10% off being steady running.. yeah I do simimilar, 12-13 milers close to marathon pace, but on trails so maybe 40seconds off.. but very flat so holding pace isn't too hard. But they are hard sessions.

I do most of my running in the high 6's, even mid 7's. This morning was 7 miles at 6:50 pace and thats pretty normal for a 7 am run now. I do think you have to listen to your body, last night I did a 14 miler at 7 pm out on country roads, set off around 7 min mile but knew I was struggling so just ignored my watch and probably did 8 min miles for the 2 hours, then this morning felt better and pushed it a bit. Hopefully I'll then be Ok for a harder session tonight.