UKC

Has anyone here ever sent there child on a school organised ski trip?

If so was it during term time or during school holidays?

I am asking to try and work out if a ski trip should be classed as a holiday or part of the physical education for the child - this relates to the utterly silly Education (Pupil Registration) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2013

In reply to rogersavery:

Always during February half term holiday at my school.

In reply to rogersavery:
I've taught quite a few kids on school ski trips (I'm an instructor in the Alps) and we have a lot that come out through the winter. I've had a assess a fair few of them as they were using skiing as one of the sports for their PE GCSE, AS or A level (or whatever they are called now I can never remember)
So I reckon that could definitely be made as part of their education. We always include some geography too - glacial valleys and avalanches etc...

In reply to rogersavery:

Not direct experience, but I know the local schools definitely organise ski trips in term time. The secondary one also refused to authorise (last year, when they still had the option) family ski trips in the same week.....

In reply to Carolyn:

To be fair to the school, decisions about whether to authorise term-time holidays often include (or rather, often used to include) some consideration of how the pupils concerned are getting on, what important activities are going on for them and what their attendance has been like previously so that's not necessarily as hypocritical as it sounds. Similar considerations would apply to whether pupils were permitted on the school ski trip.

In reply to rogersavery: Any residential trip provides a valuable educational experience, whether you look for more easily accepted teaching objectives (like understanding glacier formations) or not. A week away from family and 24 hour responsibility is not a 'holiday' for the staff. What normal person goes 'on holiday' with a selection of work tasks? In my view a school ski trip should be viewed as a special lesson; like one of those 'all singing all dancing' learning experiences that OFSTED seems to expect teachers to deliver these days in order to engage the children properly. (So rants an ex teacher!)
I do accept however, that school ski trips have often been tarnished by the behaviour of both pupils and adults. Remember that the organisation of supervision often allows a differentiation between time 'on duty' and 'off duty' and to this end teachers frequently pay to subsidise the presence of extra adults to create an increased adult: student ratio.
The word 'holiday' should be kept to describe the time the parents spend away from their children while they are away skiing.
Congratulations to ANY teacher who continues to give children experiences of education outside the classroom. Well done to any head teacher that has the courage to authorise term time skiing.

In reply to rogersavery:

My kids went during school time in January.

They were Year 9 I think so I guess the GCSE problem didn't come into it.

The worse bit was that the school decided to coach from the Midlands to Italy and for some unfathomable reason the kids were on a coach for over 30 hours. Grim. We were told to send pack lunches, breakfasts, dinners....

In reply to rogersavery: I organised and led two school ski trips in the mid-2000s.

1. Both trips took place during school time.

2. The trips were justified by reference to the learning opportunities that would take place during the trip.

3. The costs of the trips were cheaper during term time, and this was still the case even when the costs of cover were included.

4. The trips were scheduled 2 weeks prior to the half-term holiday period to allow those teachers accompanying the trip a reasonable chance to recover afterwards.

In reply to rogersavery: Yes my 13 yo went during term time in February this year. However she told me that the school has now switched this to Feb half term next year onwards.

In reply to rogersavery:

Of course it's educational in the same way that it counts as CPD for doctors, dentists, lawyers, engineers etc.

Particularly, in their case, time spent in the bar

In reply to Trangia:


Networking with colleagues, of course?

Having discussed the local ski trips with teachers, I don't have the impression they regard it as a chore, either. It's so unpopular that they have more staff volunteering to go than they can justify taking

(And in response to someone earlier - the teenager I know who was refused permission for a family trip went on to get A & Bs at A level, before going off to do a ski season before uni.... certainly not struggling at school)

In reply to Trangia: Actually, re-consider the educational learning and assessment aspects for pupils.

There were students who received very good grades because of the assessment filming of their PE skiing electives at GCSE and A level. A number became involved in the sport and are still skiing (dry slope, indoor slope and alpine) - long after their peers have ceased any meaningful form of exercise.

A significant number of students did not engage with team sports or a considerable part of the PE curriculum. After these trips, a number went on to climbing, mountain biking, D of E.

In reply to Dee:


Ye gods! Time to recover? Poor things

I wonder how on earth the rest of the skiing population manage to go skiing and then turn up for demanding jobs on Monday morning?

And as another poster says - the teacher places are oversubscribed so its not as if anyone is drawing the short straw

In reply to Babika: I am afraid you don't seem to have a clue about just how draining these trips are. Not only do you have to get the kids up and ensure they get breakfast, ski (often with beginners) all day, entertain all evening, you also have to keep them in their own rooms/ hotel at night. 6.30am to well past midnight was common. Was it worth it? Of course. After over 20 trips though I decided to be selfish and concentrate on me! This was partly because we volunteered to give up our half-terms or Easters to take other people's kids away. Some people may pack their kids off and not care about them but we did our best to ensure they were safe 24 hours a day. Naturally, kids want to get out, get drunk, shag each other etc.... that's part of the 'game' but we put in the effort to take our responsibility seriously! Often we took 'extra' staff to be more efficient but this meant staff were paying for the privilege of looking after other people's kids as well as donating their time.



There may be plenty of volunteers but that doesn't mean they won't come back shattered. While some people may come back from a ski holiday and be able to hide away eg in an office, in a school there is no hiding place on that first Monday.

Staff who do these residential trips don't want sympathy but so often there is just no awareness of what the demands actually are.... and that includes Heads/colleagues who don't contribute to such valuable extra-curricular activities themselves.

In reply to rogersavery:

Just checked ours - Easter Holidays.

In reply to Babika: Yes, 24 hours on call. If necessary stay at the hospital overnight with injured pupils (Italian law), students carrying walkie-talkies through airports (watched students being led away, later released) etc. Deal with parents and headteacher because pupils have fallen out and injured each other; pupil gets kicked out of ski school because of poor behaviour (endangering whole group and refusing to follow instructions - you'll recall the court case which ran and ran regarding a VI Former who ignored the teachers and was paralysed?) Other health and safety issues (access to alcohol in France at age 15), general welfare calls (eating, drinking sufficient water, suncreams...), teachers skiing with the groups. The LA I worked in had suffered fatalities on ski trips and, following reviews, sought to do everything to the highest standards.

earldonwhu is spot on - it's doing the job properly to bring people's children back as safely as possible from an enjoyable experience. Being shattered in a classroom and maintaining the same high expectations as my colleagues is difficult - I also recognise the lack of awareness from senior management.

Yes, I attended ski trips as a pupil and there is a world of difference from then and now (especially in the legal interpretations, case histories and parental expectations).

In reply to Babika: The other aspect I'd draw your attention to is that of the role of the trip leader, as opposed to supporting staff and volunteers.

Finding people who would be trip leaders was difficult because the number of people prepared to lead those trips decreased (see also union guidance on trips, the increased awareness of litigation, demands of school work - academic targets and appraisal criteria, organisers moving school/promoted...). I witnessed a number of trips cease as a result of these factors. However, there was never a shortage of staff prepared to volunteer to support the trip.

In reply to Babika:

Are you really so thick as to equate going on a week's ski holiday with running a school ski trip with fifty teenagers?

I'll tell you what - you have a go, and then come back and tell us all how easy it is.

Knob.

In reply to rogersavery: I failed to mention the hours spent collecting money and contacting parents before the trip even goes.

In reply to rogersavery: Actually I should say that for all the negatives, the trips I did were among the most rewarding things I have done in teaching. The progress made from complete beginners to vaguely proficient is rapid. The improved relationships with awkward pupils carry on back to school..Years later when I meet former pupils it is things like ski trips which are remembered most fondly.

In reply to earlsdonwhu: Totally agree.

Both my kids went on school ski trips, one in year 6 in term time, the other in years 10 and 11 in half term. The junior school trip was very much an educational experience for the children, being abroad away from home for a week. At the junior school we used to take our kids out of school for family trips, and whilst the school didn't actually authorise them, they didn't make life difficult for us. I'm not sure how educational the year 10/11 trips were, although my son was assessed for skiing for gcse pe on the year 10 one.