UKC

Good evening all,

I am fond of using 7mm static cord for building a belay and equalising anchors (multi-pitch). I used to use cordellette slings but personally find them a bit limited. I like the concept of having cord that is adjustable to the endless difference in configuration of belay and stance. Providing the anchors are high in the KN range I also like to belay direct from the focal point as opposed to harness (prefer to be out of the system). I have had a few raised eyebrows by curious climbers regarding my use of cord, many stating their preference towards slings and cordellettes.

Out of interest, what are fellow UKC folks' opinion on the choice between sewn slings and cord?

Regards,

Karl

In reply to Karl087:

I've used a long piece of cord with a fig 8 in each end. I've always called this a cordellette.

How does this differ from what you do?

In reply to Karl087:

why do you want to be out the system?

In reply to Karl087: Hi Dave, I am assuming you mean a single strand cord to thread through gear and back to the focal point?

If i have got this correct - that is what i also employ. Apologies for the terminology, cordellette is something i have picked up from well known manufacturers.

In reply to Karl087: I like to use my rope - means I don't have to carry extra equipment.

In reply to Karl087: Milesy, I have climbed a pitch, set my anchors, clipped to the focal point and belaying the second also from the focal point (just not attached to me). Hope I have made sense...

In reply to Karl087: in multi pitch, 2 55m ropes, tie in to them. Belay off the tie in loops, simples. I have looked at a cord cordilette but unless the anchors are close together you need a lot of cord or lots of slings.

In reply to Karl087: This is a good way of doing though it's something that sometimes works, sometimes doesn't and if you are swinging leads, I find it quicker to use my ropes and belay from the rope loops. Depending on the route I sometimes use a sling for a belay and use my reverso for bringing up my second.

In reply to Karl087: There's sometimes reasons for not using the rope.
Using your plate in guide mode, block leading, no rope left are a few.
I don't really use a cordlette though, I've never really found a situation when either the rope, or normal length slings don't do a perfectly good job.
Why static cord instead of dynamic though?

In reply to Karl087: Hi Jez, I generally am doing all the leading (wife seconds) and through practise have found attaching the rope to anchors is impractical to enable me to push on to the next pitch quicker. The 'boss' likes it too (she knows exactly where to clip into). My only caveat to using the rope is to use her end for an upward pulling anchor if i feel the need on the next pitch.

As for static cord over dynamic, less a little protected traverse, i feel the anchors are suitably weighted by me and second to warrant its use.

In reply to Karl087:

I only find it to be useful when I'm multipitching and not leading through either because of a less able second or because we're leading blocks of pitches.

In reply to Karl087: I've always thought a big length of cord was known as a cordellette anyway ?

For multi-pitch stuff i use a length of six meter, six mil cord for my belays and if the gear is bomber i'll belay off the anchor, much easier for getting the second ready to belay again. I'll only really use the rope if i know that my second is definitely leading through. I find it much cleaner if the anchors are all within reach rather than have a bunch of clove hitches or fig 8 on the bite brought back to my tie in point. Also means less rope used so can gain extra meters on a pitch if need be.

In reply to Karl087:

I hear this a lot, and I don't understand it. Have you tried getting your wife to carry 3 magic carabiners? These are three snap gates used only to attach her to the gear in a trad belay.

You tie in to the gear with the ropes as normal. She arrives and clips her magic krabs to the gear underneath your krabs and ties in just as you did but with her ropes underneath yours. You unclip your ropes and lead the next pitch.

I have timed the time taken to do this and compared it to the time taken when using a 4m sling or equivalent. If you include the time take to unpack and re-pack the sling I can find no time difference.

This is not to say using a long sling or cord isn't a good idea, I just don't buy the quicker or difficult to lead in blocks argument. Keeping separate "magic" krabs is the key - otherwise you will be faffing around all the time taking extenders apart and re-building them.

In reply to Karl087: If you use static cord (spectra I guess?) or slings to make a 'power point' style belay - you should definitely watch http://dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/slings-at-anchors/

Lots of really useful info to think through which is of some relevance here.

In reply to Karl087:

If I'm not using the rope, ie if leading in "guide" mode, I've almost always been able to link the anchors with one 240cm sling, or on a rare occasion that plus a 120cm. On an even rarer occasion (usually in winter where anchors are harder to find) I've had to use the 4m length of 6mm abseil cord that lives at the back of my harness, but this is a faff to set up and then to take down, so I'd prefer that it stayed there and it usually does!

In reply to David Coley:

Time isn't the issue though is it. You set the belay once because focus can lapse when doing it twice which risks mistakes, especially when the stance is tighter with two people. A cordellette trad belay, even hanging, hardly takes that long to set up and dismantle.

In reply to TobyA:

Those illustrate why you never have slack in the system; using a cordellette properly shouldnt be an issue. There was a discussion recently about the different issue of holding forces on different setups here:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=565748&v=1#x7525625

In reply to Offwidth:

Hi,
the reason I mentioned time is because the person I was responding to said a cordellete was quicker.

There are lots of good reasons to use a cordellette, but the approach is not quicker. A lot of people seem to just assume it is.

In reply to David Coley: I find it really beneficial when climbing with less confident people. Sometimes, when the second reaches the stance they'll decide they don't want to lead the next pitch. After having to re-build the rope anchor once or twice because they didn't want to lead the next pitch, I now use a cordalette every time that scenario may occur! Also because it just looks neater and more simple to me that ropes forwards and backwards, and I like things tidy.

In reply to NottsRich:

This is the bit I don't really get (and I use a cordalette often). The re-build or a rope based anchor should take less the <15 seconds or something is wrong.

In reply to David Coley: Is the point that the cord is static? Aren't slings, and for that matter wires/hexes/cams 'static' also? So long as your rope is dynamic, there is no problem really?

In reply to rlines:

I'm not sure what question that was a reply to. So hard to comment.

In reply to Karl087:

I use the rope and tie back, it's simple strong and needs no extra kit. It's a preference, if yours is for cordlette then that works too.

jk

In reply to Karl087: Offwidth, your point about the single focal point is one of the key reasons I employ the cordellette. Once built, it is not touched until the second strips out the anchor before climbing the next pitch. I find it a tidy and easy method to setup. I have tried the magic crabs mentioned but negated it's use by, what I perceive as easier, the cord solution.

In reply to Karl087:

Karl, going back to your original post. Cord is just fine, either with an overhand at each end, or a double fisherman's to form a loop (triple fisherman's if spectra).

This really depends on the strength of your cord and how many points of contacts you have.

I once read an article written by a speleologist that an overhand knot can weaken the cord up to 50%, while a figure of eight is between 20-25% of the rope strength.

After a quick Google search I found a 6mm static rope rated to 8kn and an 8mm rated at 15kn.

Let’s consider a worst case scenario; a climber falling directly onto the belay could generate forces between 7 – 10kn. With an overhand knot on 6mm cord the strength of the cord could be reduced to 4kn and with 8mm cord to 7.5kn. For a single strand belay with two points (and really how perfect can you get both cords equalised? Or keep them that way?) the belay is looking decidedly rocky. These are just theoretical forces and do not take into account real world factors, situations etc.

If you are using a single strand of cord, then it would make sense to use figure of eight knots at the end and have a minimum of three pointy of contact at the belay.

In reply to Jamie Simpson - Alpine Dragons:


Jamie, do you have a reference to that article by any chance?

Thanks

In reply to David Coley:

I couldn't find the one I was looking for, the link is now dead, but I did find this one.

http://tinyurl.com/q5kt8by

From a google search many paged quote 50%. Even some climbing books, but I see no reference to actual data.

In reply to Karl087: Whenever I've heard people talk about cordlettes it's been to describe a large loop of cord tied together with a double fishermans. What you're describing is a snake cord, which can still be used as a cordlette by clipping the two eyes of the knots at the end but also gives you the option of using it open.

I don't use it myself but I don't get peoples objection to it, Andy Kirkpatrick raves about the snake cord, if it's good enough for him...

Advantages:
1) I agree that there are more important things that will make you quicker and a slick climber setting up a belay will probably not notice a difference between the second clipping into each bit of gear with the rope or clipping a powerpoint. It is however a lot simpler, and simpler is good. That is it's biggest advantage imo. Leading all pitches with one second takes a lot of thought if you're building belays with the rope, if you've got two seconds each clipping into each bit of gear when they arrive and trying to worry about stance management as well then why not just use a snake cord and have one clip in point.

2) It's super fast to put away so don't say it'll take ages to tie up, clip the ends, twist it up like a sling and clip it again. Either that or just make forearm length loops and tie a knot it in. There isn't the faff with a snake cord as there is with a 240cm sling.

3) You aren't carrying extra gear, you're carrying different gear. It also serves as a massive amount of ab tat which would probably be in your rucksack. If you're leading all pitches and building belays with the rope it saves you extra carabiners, if you're building belays with slings it saves you slings.

4) It's an extra massive sling if you need it.

5) it's easier to untie than skinny slings.

Despite not using them I don't really see why anyone has a problem with them.

In reply to Sharp:
>

I use one often. One possible issue is that they can lead to people trying to build belays only from placements that are very close to one another. This can mean better or quicker placements are missed, e.g. first piece on next pitch, sling around large block up and right etc.

Of course, one can extend placements, or only use the cordelette when it is good to on a route, however I keep seeing people with them narrowing their circle of vision when it comes to selecting placements for belays.

In reply to Karl087: With double ropes I usually use the ropes to belay with unless I know that I will be leading all the pitches in which case I might use a cordlette or better still a Grivel Daisy Chain. This latter is also useful when using single ropes as it makes equalising the anchors really quick. It can also be used as a cows tail making it very easy to convert from a temporary belay to a permanent one without unclipping.