/ Harrison's Rocks toilet block- please sign the petition

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DingBat - on 18 Oct 2013
If you've ever used the facilities at Harrison's rocks you'll want to sign the online petition link below.

http://www.petitions24.com/reopen_harrisons_rocks_toilet_block

The petition is directed towards SPORT ENGLAND Uk who under the terms of a lease with the Forestry Commission have a duty to operate and maintain Harrision's Rock's Car Park, Jullie Tullis camp site and Toilet block in the interest of Rock Climbers, walkers and the residents of the village of Groombridge.

The toilet block has remained closed for over six months now with Sport England holding funding and responsibility to complete repairs having done nothing to bring the facilities back into use, their only actions appearing to be with the lessor to demolish the block, despite their moral obligation to complete repairs and maintain usage.


IPPurewater on 18 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: Signed.
phildavies84 - on 18 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Done
Choss on 18 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

Done
DreadyCraig - on 18 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Some information on why the toilet block has stayed closed here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=68223
FB - on 18 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: Could I make a suggestion why don't a load of us spend a couple of weekends doing the work (there must be loads of tradesmen who are climbers + helpers could get this done for little money with the leftover used to maintain the facilities or a small chrge to use like London rail stations. Just my 10p's worth
jsmcfarland - on 18 Oct 2013
In reply to FB:

There's been talk of locals getting together and sort it out

http://www.southernsandstoneclimbs.co.uk/

Al Evans on 19 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: Signed from Spain.
Trangia - on 19 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

I hope all UKCers will support this campaign, even if you are not a fan of Southern Sandstone. It's all we've got down here and the permanent loss of toilet facilities is likely to result in the surrounding woods becoming littered with loo paper and shit in much the same way that parts of Font have been affected, an inevitable result of increasing footfall to the rocks and area, particular at summer weekends.
DingBat - on 19 Oct 2013
In reply to FB:
Thanks for this. We have a great team of qualified tradesmen lined up. Sport England have refused us access to complete a survey and are refusing point blank for any remedial work to take place- very obstructive, so much for the 'big society'.
Local climbers are dealing with a 'jobs worth' situation where climbers are not effectively represented - have no voice - the sports council have agreed with the forestry commission to demolish the block next November when the lease runs out- meanwhile they can't be bothered to solve the problem on behalf of climbers( we are a minority sport! - sic)
Please could I ask that you circulate the link to club members and informal groups of climbers? Hopefully someone with power and influence will take note.
woolsack - on 19 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: Is it worth signatories sending a few emails of complaint in to Sport England as well requesting they abide by their obligations?
Al Evans on 20 Oct 2013
In reply to woolsack: I like this cause so I just thought I'd bump the petition.
Gordon Stainforth - on 20 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

Done.
Fishmate - on 20 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

done
Jim Hamilton - on 20 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

Looking at previous threads, it appears the BMC also prefer not to have the toilet block repaired, favouring demolition and a bigger car park. Will a petition to SE help if they know that climbers own representitive body don't support it ?
fawlty on 20 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: signed.
Rob Naylor - on 20 Oct 2013
In reply to Jim Hamilton:

I don't think that presents the BMC's position at all.

I missed the last Sandstone Volunteers Group meeting as I was in Russia, but at the Sandstone Open Meeting I went to in May it was put forward as a bit more complicated than just getting a team together and doing the work (otherwise Malcolm McP and his tame plumbers and sparkies would have been in there the next day!). It was presented at that meeting as being quite a tricky set of legal responsibilities between Sport England, the Forestry Commission and the BMC, with various requirements in leases, some parties preferring demolition etc. It wasn’t possible for the BMC just to take on the lease or to just go in and dpo interim repairs.

It seemed back than that the HRMG (Harrison’s Rocks Management Group) and BMC were doing all they could through normal channels, but that the Forestry Commission and Sport England were being particularly obstructive.

As I said, I missed the last SVG meeting acouple of weeks ago, but would be interested to know what information was presented there that might have a bearing on this. I'm sure it was discussed and some ideas put forward. Anyone have a set of minutes and could post the relevant section?






SimonCRMC - on 20 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

Signed
DingBat - on 20 Oct 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
A* Al thank you.
Michael Hood - on 20 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: Signed
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Jim Hamilton - on 20 Oct 2013
In reply to Rob Naylor:
> (In reply to Jim Hamilton)
>
> I don't think that presents the BMC's position at all.
>
https://thebmc.co.uk/harrisons-toilet-block-and-campsite-closed

it does from this ?
Trangia - on 20 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

2 days in and over 100 signatures.

That's great! Keep it up UKC!
DingBat - on 20 Oct 2013
In reply to Al Evans:


ping!
Rob Naylor - on 20 Oct 2013
In reply to Jim Hamilton:

The relevant bit is:

<<However the BMC thinks that a far better use of the money SE have set aside for repairs, would be to use it in re-landscaping the upper car park to provide as many spaces as possible, rather than invested in a resource that only has an 18 month lifespan. >>

Sport England would, under the terms of the lease, be required to return the building to the Forestry Commission in the same state they received it in, so have put aside money to make the repairs required to do so. However, once the block is returned to the FC, IT (the FC) intends to demolish it, even though it would now be in good condition, so the funds spent on it would be wasted.

My understanding (from attending several Sandstone Open Meetings and SVG group events in the last 2-3 years) is that the BMC's position is that IF THE TOILET BLOCK IS TO BE DEMOLISHED ANYWAY then the funds earmarked for its repair would be better spent on improving the parking. That doesn't mean the BMC wants to see it demolished.

The BMC has said that it doesn't have the funds to run the car park AND to maintain, repair and run the toilet block. The voluntary car park charge barely covers the cost of collecting it as so many people don't bother to pay.

All kinds of options to retain the toilet block have been discussed, and the BMC is certainly, as far as I can tell from the various meetings, keen to see it refurbished and in use. A much better idea of the BMC's position can be obtained by attending Sandstone Open and SVG Meetings where HRMG and BMC officers give more detailed insights into legal and financial positions than they can in brief articles on websites where the main message was for people to stop using the campsite pending a solution being found.

I did sign the petition, BTW.
DingBat - on 20 Oct 2013
In reply to Rob Naylor:
Thanks for signing rob
This is a fast moving situation the politics really need a full understanding But please help by asking others to sign- the ordinary climber bod needs a voice.
Chris
woolsack - on 20 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: Seems utterly ridiculous that a perfectly good facility is earmarked for demolition simply because it can't be agreed who will run it. Repairing it isn't the issue, a volunteer force has already been assembled. Even more ironic given the billions spent last year on white elephants that were used for a mere matter of months
DingBat - on 20 Oct 2013
In reply to woolsack:
This is the nub of it Mr. Woolsack. If we lose it it will never come back. In the mis- quoted words of Dennis Gray " responsibility was passed on from the sandstone climbers club to the BMC "
DingBat - on 20 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Could I draw attention to the remarks of a surveyor who visited the site? Please follow petition link and read comment number 5.
Jim Hamilton - on 20 Oct 2013
In reply to Rob Naylor:
> (In reply to Jim Hamilton)
>
> It wasn’t possible for the BMC just to take on the lease or to just go in and dpo interim repairs.
>
> It seemed back than that the HRMG (Harrison’s Rocks Management Group) and BMC were doing all they could through normal channels, but that the Forestry Commission and Sport England were being particularly obstructive.
>
Why can't HRMG/BMC go in and do interim repairs if they have/had? the contract to manage the place ?
Guy Atkinson - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
done and spread about a bit on Fb
Al Evans on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Guy Atkinson: Come on guys, every UKCer that has ever climbed at Harrisons or intends to one day HAS to sign this petition.
It's worth it just for the traverse :-)
ti_pin_man - on 21 Oct 2013
what an odd situation. this campsite needs an owner who can charge enough to maintain the toilet block for all. if not everybody will be knocking this down and it will be lost.
Rob Naylor - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to ti_pin_man:

If people paid the suggested charges for parking it probably would. I did a count one evening and less than 20% of the cars leaving dropped money in the box.
ti_pin_man - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Rob Naylor: so we need a petition to ourselves to pay up? rediculous.
Trangia - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to ti_pin_man:

It is a ridiculous situation, but sadly there are many climbers out there who don't/won't pay for parking even though the money used to go towards maintaining the site and loos. There is a surprising number of climbers who have the attitude that "climbing, and access for climbing, should be free", but they are sadly misguided in this instance, because the voluntary car parking charge was for parking (with loo facilities), not the climbing. There is totally free access to the rocks.

There are also a large number of walkers, and dog walkers who use the car park and loo facilities.

Yes it's very sad that this situation had been reached, but demolishing the loo block is a retrograde step, and it needs putting into repair which is what Sport England covenanted to do. They should honour their obligation.

After that it will be up to the climbing fraternity and local walkers and dog walkers to find a way of keeping the loos in repair, which is separate issue to the current problem.
ti_pin_man - on 21 Oct 2013
petition signed but it doesnt look good as even the BMC wont take ownership of the loo and are saying in terms of cash, the money is better spent on the crag car park. Some organisation needs to buy the loo/site IMHO. Cant the BMC buy it? or maybe a whip round ? I dunno, it just looks doomed to be demolished and nobody likes poo-ing in the woods.
DingBat - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to ti_pin_man:
The money is there apparently with Sport England- Please dont confuse with climbers voluntary contributions for car parking (Which when collected are granted by the Julie Tullis trust to support Woman's and disabled expeditions )
Please keep this thread clear of other (important as they may be issues;) BUMP!
DingBat - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: 150 have now signed!
Please spread the word and keep bumping this thread
puppythedog on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: DOne and Done.
DingBat - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to puppythedog: Thanks- Bump!
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DingBat - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Guy Atkinson) Come on guys, every UKCer that has ever climbed at Harrisons or intends to one day HAS to sign this petition.
> It's worth it just for the traverse :-)

Thanks for this Al. Has anyone actually done the traverse- I thought It was mythology...
fawlty on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: Have a bump.
Have now refreshed my memory of whats been said on this (in public) via all the articles/ press releases published - does anyone know why pay to park was dismissed by the forestry commission?
Cheers, and keep up the good work.

f
Dervish - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

Signed.

Al Evans on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
> [...]
>
> Thanks for this Al. Has anyone actually done the traverse- I thought It was mythology...

Well I can't remember if I ever actually did it all in one, though it was usually well chalked up when I was a regular, I certainly did long sections of it.
DingBat - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
Thanks for your brilliant support- a fantastic response so far.
Could I ask that if you have not already done so you circulate the link via face book and twitter?
If you belong to a club please circulate and encourage others to join the campaign?
With enough signatures Sport England will take note I'm sure.

Did you know that back in the '70s it only took 270 signatures to get the loos and car park built there in the first place?
Can you imagine the state of the rocks and woodland if the tens of thousands of people who have visited the rocks since then had not had the facility?
Jim Hamilton - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
> With enough signatures Sport England will take note I'm sure.
>
from above :-

"the BMC's position is that IF THE TOILET BLOCK IS TO BE DEMOLISHED ANYWAY then the funds earmarked for its repair would be better spent on improving the parking."

so presumably the BMC don't in theory support your petition which wants the funds spent on repair, regardless of whether the block is demolished next year ?
Al Evans on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Jim Hamilton: But how can you have a campsite, and even if you scrap that, a major car park at a crag without a toilet block, even Stanage doesn't do that and the open ground for toilet facilities there are vast compared to Harrisons.
DingBat - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Jim Hamilton:

Have you visited Harrison's?

I think the BMC really wants the facility, but is at odds about how to successfully manage it .The BMC need to persuade Sport England (who have the lease) and the forestry commission (who leased it to them) to see sense.

The car park and toilets were built for a very good reason in the 70's. The reasons haven't changed. To compare with Stanage is strange. If you gave peak climbers the chance of a civilised crap rather than ducking down behind a boulder, wouldn't they take it? The point is we have something which we could lose unless climbers get behind the idea of saving the facility. I hope the BMC will not abandon southern climbers and work with Sport England on our behalf.

DingBat - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
Sorry Al, I've just reread your post and now realise what you were driving at. Bump!
woolsack - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: Bump for a dump!
DingBat - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to woolsack:
I'm working on the tee shirt and mug design as we speak!!!!
I like climbing - on 21 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Signed.
DingBat - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to I like climbing:
229 signatures this morning ! Great effort UKC !
cfer - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: Done and shared on my fb page
cfer - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: Whats disappointing is only 230 signatures but over 1900 views on this thread.....

Even if you dont/never intend to climb here you should sign it.


Otherwise all those southern climbers will be disgusted by the state of the area and start heading north and crowding the crags up here!!!!
Trangia - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to cfer:
> (In reply to DingBat) Whats disappointing is only 230 signatures but over 1900 views on this thread.....
>
> Even if you dont/never intend to climb here you should sign it.
>
>
>

The very points I made on my thread "The Silent Majority", but thanks to those who have chosen not to remain silent, and a further nudge to those who may still be thinking about it.

BTW to anyone who wants to remain anonymous, you can chose to sign without your name being published.
woolsack - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to jsmcfarland:
> (In reply to FB)
>
> There's been talk of locals getting together and sort it out
>
> http://www.southernsandstoneclimbs.co.uk/

^^^This is the future.^^^

If the BMC want/feel the need to chuck the towel in then it'll be local management that will see it survive. Seems a shame that the world needs to end in November 2014

3 Names - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

signed
Al Evans on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: Why am I getting e-mails because I have signed the petition? Is this a spam?
cb_6 - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: signed.
DingBat - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to cfer:
I'd like to agree- but thanks to all the people who are signing!
DingBat - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to Trangia:
We're all on the same side I guess.Its great to see that so many people are reading about the issues and some people at the far ends of the earth have taken time to sign.
By signing your also supporting the legions of young people who have been to Harrisons with youth groups/ scouts etc who will not have a voice with Sport England or the BMC- Now there's another silent majority.
DingBat - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to woolsack:
Yes, proir to starting this petition a large number of local climbers seemed to have permission from the BMCs Harrisons Rocks Management Group to conduct a survey with a view to bringing the block back into use ASAP.

The group had a qualified surveyor and certified trades people with a variety of skills to do a 'big society' approach to the problem. However, when Sport England found out they stopped the project in its tracks by denying access on H&S grounds- hence the petition as the way forward. The view of the qualified surveyor (who managed to visit once) was that the block could be brought back into use very easily. (See his comment on the petion website) I can kind of see it from the Sport England view- but I also happen to think the H&S risk of human detrius in the waterways and woodlands around the crag is much bigger and Sport England's stance adds to this risk on a daily basis and that they have sole responsibility for the unfolding (toilet paper joke?) situation.
DingBat - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
bump!
jrace70 - on 22 Oct 2013
Done!
kedvenc72 - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
done
nickcrowhurst - on 22 Oct 2013
Done.
woolsack - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: Does anyone know the sort of sums of money that Sport England were floating around for running the campsite, car park and toilets?
lorentz - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

Done. Shared. Bump.
Graham C - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

done
DingBat - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to woolsack:
I think that's a FOI request- its a public body and those figures should be in the tax payers domain.

I think it's pretty clear that not a lot (nothing) has been spent on maintenance this year- because the place is closed!
And sadley that not enough had been spent on maintenance in previous years to get to the point that they are condemning it now.
woolsack - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
> (In reply to woolsack)
> I think that's a FOI request- its a public body and those figures should be in the tax payers domain.
>
> I think it's pretty clear that not a lot (nothing) has been spent on maintenance this year- because the place is closed!
> And sadley that not enough had been spent on maintenance in previous years to get to the point that they are condemning it now.

I may give them something to do then. Let us see what they have *not* been spending
DingBat - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to woolsack:
Come on climbers! If you've just got in from the wall like me sign the petition and show you care!
Bump!
DingBat - on 22 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: bump!
Trangia - on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

Now over 350 signatures
DingBat - on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to Trangia:
That's fantastic- spoke to lots of people at the wall last night who have still to sign- lets set a target of at least 500... what do people think?
DingBat - on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to Trangia:
lunch bump
woolsack - on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: I've sent in a FOI request to SE for details about the FC lease and the maintenance contract with the BMC. I can't see I'm stirring anything that isn't going to die of natural causes anyway.

Let's see what we get..
DingBat - on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to woolsack:

Great- well done. I believe FOI rules say 21 days to make a return to the request.
DingBat - on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
If you have signed and are reading this please could you send on the link via facebook and twitter or to your climbing club members who may not have seen the petition yet.
Many thanks.
ads.ukclimbing.com
DingBat - on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Bump
Trangia - on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

Come on UKC! This is a great cause and the signatures have been coming in steadily for the past couple of days. Don't let the momentum wane. If you haven't signed yet, please do, and persuade your friends, partners/spouses and family to join in. We are now just 13 signatures short of 400 which shows the strength of feeling here.

DingBat - on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to lorentz:
Great! Thank you!
DingBat - on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Thanks for the re tweet Mile End wall
Trangia - on 23 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

402 signatures! Brilliant, yes, lets hope we will reach, and exceed 500?
DingBat - on 24 Oct 2013
In reply to Trangia:
Bump!
Come on UKC. If you havent signed the petition do something for your sport!
avictimoftheDrpsycho - on 24 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
> (In reply to Trangia)
> Bump!
> Come on UKC. If you havent signed the petition do something for your sport!

Ahem, climbing is not a sport.
But I've signed it anyway. :)
DingBat - on 24 Oct 2013
In reply to willexodus:
I wont go there!
Thank You.
bump!
DingBat - on 24 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Lunch Bump- Please sign! 431 have!
woolsack - on 24 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: If, and it is a biggish if, the FC were persuaded not to demolish the toilets and/ volunteer labour repaired the toilet block to a safe standard (which it seems is a fairly easily achieved goal), what would the running of the campsite, toilets and carpark entail if a volunteer rota were arranged?
DingBat - on 24 Oct 2013
In reply to woolsack:
I think it's a daily commitment, with cleaning and ensuring consumables are refreshed. It's also important that camp site dues are collected. I personally think it need managing effectively and professionally rather than relying on the great and the good...
Oceanrower - on 24 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: How many can we get attending here to try and force the issue?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=567081

DingBat - on 24 Oct 2013
I personally hope that things will be much clearer by then, I don’t want to see climbers 'rounding' on the BMC although many of us feel completely let down by the current issue. That said I hope its a reasonable size venue...

I believe in the good intentions of the BMC, Forestry Commission and Sport England but recon that the processes of stakeholders working together to look after the facility effectively on behalf of climbers has broken down, and all three need to re-read their mission statements before they meet together next. If the funding from Sport England, the good will from the Forestry Commission and the a shoulder to the wheel from the BMC don’t come together in a meaningful way our (minority) sport has really been shat on and the efforts of out predecessor in gaining the facility wasted.

I think that (at the time of writing) nearly 500 climbers all saying the same thing is very powerful, a bit like an electronic mini version of the mass trespass of kinder scout where just 400 ramblers from Manchester made the same statement.
DingBat - on 24 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
bump!
DingBat - on 24 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Come on all climbers- do something that will make a difference Sport England are now watching the petition- it's time to have our say as a sport!
Trangia - on 24 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

The response has been overwhelming. Great to see the climbing community and locals so united.
DingBat - on 24 Oct 2013
In reply to Trangia:
Just 16 signatures short of 500 now! Come on ukc.....
Trangia - on 25 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

Fantastic! Now past the 500 mark. Well done UKC please keep up the momentum and continue to tell your friends , who may not have seen it yet, of this petition.

Sport England can't continue to ignore this strength of feeling
Jim Walton on 25 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: Never been to Harrison's Rocks, however I feel that the loss of a facility that could be repaired seems daft.

Signed
Trangia - on 25 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

Just a thought. I haven't been up to Harrisons for a few weeks now. You may have already done it, but I wondered if prominent notices on the Notice Board and on the doors to the toilet block itself, drawing attention to the petition and link aimed at climbers, walkers and dog walkers are worth considering? I'm not certain if there is a warden any more, but if there is maybe he/she could do this?
ads.ukclimbing.com
DingBat - on 25 Oct 2013
In reply to Trangia:
I'm down there on Sunday so I'll put some notices up then!
Bump!
DingBat - on 25 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
If you're seeing this for the first time please sign.
Thank you!
DingBat - on 25 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Bump! Who wants to be # 550?
DingBat - on 26 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Breaking news .....Sport England, the forestry commission, the BMC and the parish council are to meet on 4th November to discuss the toilet block (and therefore camp site's ) future.
A copy of the petition will be given to Sport England then, but they are already aware to this rank and file response -There are currently 562 signatures - please could I urge all to circulate the link and encourage others to sign? As public bodies the organisations involved must surely want to take notice of climbers wishes.
woolsack - on 26 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: Fingers crossed for a positive outcome
Trangia - on 26 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

Now 580!
DingBat - on 26 Oct 2013
In reply to Trangia:
Yeah brilliant - people are really wanting to go for a civilised pooh!
DingBat - on 26 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Just back from Harrison's - what a sorry state everything locked up in the autumn gloom. A lovely building though. It will be a shocking shame to lose it....
timmyhobby - on 26 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: done
puppythedog on 26 Oct 2013
In reply to timmyhobby: Hopefully this get's sorted.
Trangia - on 26 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

600 and counting! Brilliant!
DingBat - on 27 Oct 2013
In reply to Trangia:
Ok so has everyone lying in bed an extra hour asked there partner to sign?
DingBat - on 27 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Not many climbers out today- but ive put the link up!
DingBat - on 27 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Thank you all who do know why the amenities are so important at Harrison's
Roland.Online on 27 Oct 2013
Gone done signed it.
DingBat - on 27 Oct 2013
In reply to Roland.Online:
Cheers !
DingBat - on 27 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Has anyone from the BMC signed yet?
DingBat - on 27 Oct 2013

In reply to DingBat:
Has anyone from the BMC signed yet?
DingBat - on 27 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:


Has anyone from the BMC signed yet?
DingBat - on 28 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Let's keep bumping this thread guys. More people need to sign
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Trangia - on 28 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

Morning bump
DingBat - on 28 Oct 2013
In reply to Trangia:
I'll keep asking - has anyone from the BMC lifted their mouse? - we want to know that you are onside with access and "Working for climbers, hill walkers & mountaineers"
DingBat - on 28 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Lunch bump!
DingBat - on 28 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Keep signing! Thanks to those climbing walls who are now promoting the petition!
ccmm on 28 Oct 2013 - 212.219.255.65 whois?
In reply to DingBat:

Signed. Number 673.
DingBat - on 28 Oct 2013
In reply to Craig Mc:
Thanks Craig. This thread has had nearly 4,000 views on UKC now and may well reach 700 signatures soon. The comments on the petition web site are well worth a read to see how important the reopening of this facility is.
Trangia - on 28 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

Now on 678. Come on UKC just another 22 signatures and it'll be 700, so if you haven't signed yet PLEASE do!
Postmanpat on 28 Oct 2013
In reply to Trangia:
> (In reply to DingBat)
>
> Now on 678. Come on UKC just another 22 signatures and it'll be 700, so if you haven't signed yet PLEASE do!

Have you managed to track down some of the schools and youth groups who use the facility?

Trangia - on 28 Oct 2013
In reply to Postmanpat:

No, but I've been in touch with a climbing wall I use regularly, and also with a freelance instructor who has signed.
DingBat - on 28 Oct 2013
In reply to Postmanpat:
Unfortunately not!
They are the real silent majority that this petition is trying to support...
Trangia - on 28 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
> (In reply to DingBat)
> Has anyone from the BMC signed yet?

Well BMC? Has anyone from the BMC signed yet? If not, why not? I can't believe the BMC is unaware of this petition.
DingBat - on 28 Oct 2013
In reply to Trangia:
I've had 3 responses from BMC officials all citing different disappointing reasons for not wanting to sign. The reality is that the BMC has sport England as their paymaster and this relationship seems to stifle what I would hope for from the representative body that's taken my subs since 1978.
I did get an offer from one official to write an update, of the current situation. The only thing on the BMC website is the notice of closure and intention to bulldoze- so an official update might be nice for the 700 folk who have signed the petition.
I don't want to alienate or demonise anyone helping to find a solution - we are all on the same side I hope. I do feel that more could and should be done- this is the Information Age. Our BMC has an iPhone app and now it's own tv stream channel surely we can have an update ?
icnoble on 28 Oct 2013
In reply to Trangia:
> (In reply to DingBat)
>
> I hope all UKCers will support this campaign, even if you are not a fan of Southern Sandstone. It's all we've got down here and the permanent loss of toilet facilities is likely to result in the surrounding woods becoming littered with loo paper and shit in much the same way that parts of Font have been affected, an inevitable result of increasing footfall to the rocks and area, particular at summer weekends.

So if you lose your toilet facility permanently, why should that cause the surrounding woods to become littered with loo paper and shit. Just do what dog owners do and pick it up with a plastic bag and take it away, not difficult.
Trangia - on 28 Oct 2013
In reply to icnoble:
> (In reply to Trangia)
> [...]
>
> Just do what dog owners do and pick it up with a plastic bag and take it away,

or toss it into the nearest bush?

No seriously, you know and I know that realistically folk don't always do the sensible thing. Toilet blocks are the norm for camp sites in a civilised society, and this is all about preserving an amenity, so PLEASE sign the petition.



icnoble on 28 Oct 2013
In reply to Trangia: I will happily sign the petition, as the toilet block is part of the campsite rather than just an unnecessary luxury for climbers.
icnoble on 28 Oct 2013
In reply to Trangia: Signed

Trangia - on 28 Oct 2013
In reply to icnoble:

Thanks!
DingBat - on 28 Oct 2013
In reply to icnoble:
Bump!
Please come and climb at Harrison's then sign the petition
DingBat - on 28 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Can we push it over 700 signatures tonight???
DingBat - on 28 Oct 2013
In reply to icnoble:
Yes well done that man !
ads.ukclimbing.com
Oceanrower - on 28 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: Being fair to the pro/anti BMC signing, can you confirm or deny whether the great and good of UKC (Alan James etc.) have signed?
Trangia - on 29 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

Over 700 signatures now
DingBat - on 29 Oct 2013
In reply to Oceanrower:

I hope nobody's anti BMC but I do think its legitimate to question actions and choices they make on our behalf. Its democracy and accountability in action when it happens!

704 good and great have signed. No, Alan James hasn't yet- but there's plenty of time before the petition is handed to Sport England on the 4th November. It might be that the petition hasn't been visible enough .....
jimtitt - on 29 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
It´s Alan´s choice to tell people whether he has signed or not, I´d have asked his permission before starting yet another witchhunt.
DingBat - on 29 Oct 2013
In reply to jimtitt:
Yes you're right. Apologies Alan- still time to sign the petition.
paul__in_sheffield - on 29 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: it's up to Alan James or anyone else whether he's signs this or not, and not for you to publicise.
Are you going to list the other 99% of registered UKC users who haven't signed? Including myself now, whatever the merits of the case.
DingBat - on 29 Oct 2013
In reply to paul__in_sheffield:
Thanks Paul. I'll apologise again.
Please sign the petition. It's a great resource for all climbers, a great camp site next to the rocks etc
Trangia - on 29 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

Lunch time bump
deepsoup - on 29 Oct 2013
In reply to paul__in_sheffield:
> Including myself now, whatever the merits of the case.

That's a tad petty, don't you think? If you feel you should sign it, sign it. No reason you can't do that *and* get pissy with DingBat.
DingBat - on 29 Oct 2013
In reply to deepsoup:
Thanks. Climbing is a broad church and clearly not everyone wants to keep and improve the amenities climbers have. I'd invite all who've never climbed there to come and see Harrison's camp at the Julie Tullis, drink a pint of Harvey's and sit round the fire and enjoy the truly inclusive atmosphere. I'll remind myself this is a petition about the closure of the amenities up until the lease expires November 2014. Thanks to all those from UKC who are signing. I hope it will make a difference when parties meet.
DingBat - on 29 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
On 718 signatures now. Brilliant response- keep it coming!
Fiskavaig on 29 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: Done
Trangia - on 30 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

Morning bump. Please keep those signatures rolling in.
puppythedog on 30 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: how many now?
DingBat - on 30 Oct 2013
In reply to puppythedog:
726 and counting.... I heard from Elizabeth Holley BMC Regional Development Officer (London & South East) yesterday that the BMC would update everyone on the current situation.
Remember, the only thing they have said publicly so far is that there is no money, and no will to keep the amenities open, so I hope there will be some glimmers of hope in this new statement.

Please keep bumping and signatures rolling in! Support is growing in many areas outside this forum.
DingBat - on 30 Oct 2013
In reply to puppythedog:
bump!
DingBat - on 30 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Come on UKC, help by singing this grass roots petition
Toerag - on 30 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: Signed. Even if it doesn't save the block it shows that another climber cares about not shitting in the woods!
DingBat - on 31 Oct 2013
In reply to Toerag:
I spoke to the surveyor who visited the toilet block recently. He said that with the volunteer labour of qualified (climber) tradesmen already assembled it would only cost £1,000 to £1,500 to sort out the problems and get the block open.
Why can't the BMC negotiate with Sport England to let this happen?
Trangia - on 31 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

I'm curious to know why Sport England don't intend to renew their Lease see http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=567671

It seems that they are just dumping (no pun intended) their support towards climbing as a sport?
woolsack - on 31 Oct 2013
In reply to Trangia:
> (In reply to DingBat)
>
> I'm curious to know why Sport England don't intend to renew their Lease see http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=567671
>
> It seems that they are just dumping (no pun intended) their support towards climbing as a sport?

I also fail to see why they feel that maintenance of a toilet block doesn't fit in with their funding remit. It certainly does according to the statements on their website. I think if it were a badminton facility in a leafy borough with a good throughput of fatties it would be a different story. Maybe we don't tick enough of their boxes any more?
DingBat - on 31 Oct 2013
In reply to woolsack:
It is very strange that the support for this long term commitment is ending given the doubling of the size of the grant made to the BMC from Sport England. Did they simply forget to include outdoor climbing in the South East in the bid? Or was there a conscious decision? If so where was the consultation with climbers in London and the SE area and where are the meeting minutes?
It really shouldn't be an insignificant irritating issue for the BMC to address.From the BMCs own web pages:
"London and the South East have the highest number of BMC members."
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/london-calling-meet-our-new-regional-officer
Still waiting for news. I'm expecting "Mother knows best"
DingBat - on 31 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Please see BMC thread. At last Dave has written something, though we're no closer to understanding many things
DingBat - on 31 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Lunch Bump!
Have you seen what Dave Turnbull is saying on the other thread titled "Harrison’s Rocks - BMC position & update" ? Reading this and the London and South East Area Meeting minutes things are becoming clear.

Basically, we're being let down really badly by the BMC. They really haven't challenged the other stakeholders regarding keeping the amenities open and don't appear to want to

We have been SO let down by our 'professionals'.

Dave Turnbull and the executives need a fresh approach- what about it Dave?
There is a rank and file demand for the BMC to show leadership with negotiations with Forestry Commission and Sport England.
DingBat - on 31 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: bump
Trangia - on 31 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat:

800 signatures now.
Simonfarfaraway - on 31 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: sad to say nothing new there. The BMC has basically got too big for its boots and sadly as its grown its moved away from basics/grass routes intent on growth, self importance, over governance and promoting bizarre things.

Oh welll......
DingBat - on 31 Oct 2013
In reply to Trangia:
Simon far far away seems to have hit a nail on the head!

Have you seen the trend line on the statistics tab of the petition?

Only bears shit in the woods.
edis - on 31 Oct 2013
In reply to DingBat: Come on sign it tweet it re-tweet it, face book it and share as widely as possible. Lets show them we mean business!
DingBat - on 31 Oct 2013
In reply to edis:
The response to the petition today has been fantastic - 3 more to sign to make 100 signatures in a single day. Fantastic response.
http://www.petitions24.com/reopen_harrisons_rocks_toilet_block

Keep spreading the word. Some folks are finding out about this fiasco for the first time.
Trangia - on 01 Nov 2013
In reply to DingBat:
> (In reply to edis)
> The response to the petition today has been fantastic - 3 more to sign to make 100 signatures in a single day. Fantastic response.
> http://www.petitions24.com/reopen_harrisons_rocks_toilet_block
>
> Keep spreading the word. Some folks are finding out about this fiasco for the first time.


Morning bump
Offwidth - on 01 Nov 2013
In reply to Simonfarfaraway:

Nonsense! No organisation is perfect but people with your view are very much in a minority. Climbing is full of opinionated folk so being right for everyone is impossible anyhow. However, if a clear groundswell of members push on an issue they will always take it up.
Rob Naylor - on 01 Nov 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Simonfarfaraway)
>
> However, if a clear groundswell of members push on an issue they will always take it up.

Hmmm...the locals here, who put in vast amounts of voluntary labour in crag maintenance, may find that hard to swallow. We've been banging on about the toilet block for several years now and above the level of Harrison's Rocks Management Group, it seems to be a one-way street.

In my work life, something like this would be sorted out in a few weeks. There's the groundswell here, in spades, and a lot of goodwill and willingness to put time into doing what's needed, but at the national level there just seems to be a "roll over and accept Sport England/ the FC's position" attitude.

I was defending the BMC at the start of this thread, but as I've become more aware of what's being going on (having midsed a fairly crucial meeting), it seems as if all the ideas, initiatives and desire to get stuck in has been coming from locals with little or no support from the hierarchy.
dereke12000 - on 01 Nov 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Signed this morning.

This was the first place I ever climbed over 30 years ago, an amazing place with a great atmosphere. Julie Tullis taught my parents to climb here. Don't let this place fall into ruin - sign the petition please!
DingBat - on 01 Nov 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Simonfarfaraway)
>
> Nonsense! No organisation is perfect but people with your view are very much in a minority. Climbing is full of opinionated folk so being right for everyone is impossible anyhow. However, if a clear groundswell of members push on an issue they will always take it up.

Well I don't know about nonsense Offwidth, talking to people, this is how they feel, so the BMC needs to deal with the perception as well as the reality. I do agree with you about groundswell. The stats page on the petition web site shows that more and more people are finding out about the demise of the amenity.

Read the comments page of the petition: these are not UKC people, I think everyone on UKC (except most paid executives and offices of the BMC) have signed the petition long ago. The petition continues to grow because people can't believe what's happening and how little the BMC has done / is doing to retrieve the situation.

DingBat - on 01 Nov 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Lunch bump!!
DingBat - on 01 Nov 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Over 900 now!
Simonfarfaraway - on 01 Nov 2013
In reply to Offwidth: I just know as a climber of 15 ish years I don't like what the BMC have become, with Web channels, apps, trying to get climbing into the Olympics etc. They seem to just be about 'must make climbing more popular' a lobbying group, instead of focusing on the basics like guidebooks, safety and access - which are a valid use of time/money etc (which they used to).

P.S. It looks like you work/have worked for the BMC (?guidebooks)??
Trangia - on 02 Nov 2013
In reply to DingBat:

Morning bump. Come on UKC one final push over the weekend and there should be over 1,000 signatures by Monday which is the deadline for the meeting between the BMC, FC and Sport England. If you haven't signed yet, PLEASE do and spread the word.
wobble - on 02 Nov 2013
In reply to DingBat:

Signed.
ads.ukclimbing.com
DingBat - on 02 Nov 2013
In reply to wobble:
Keep it live! We may get past the 1000 mark today
Offwidth - on 02 Nov 2013
In reply to Simonfarfaraway:

I'm not asking you to like everything they do, just don't deny the good work they do do and that in some of the thinks you dislike you may be in a minority position. I got into guidebooks because I thought they had some usability and grading issues in otherwise excellent researched volumes. The huge amounts of work I did was purely voluntary (and I'm pleased to have been part of a transformation from problematic to exemplary in the areas I was concerned with). If you think something is wrong, volunteering to help resolve the issue and lobbying from the inside is better than throwing eggs from the outside.
DingBat - on 02 Nov 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
Bump!
DingBat - on 02 Nov 2013
In reply to DingBat:

956 climbers say this is important. Please help by signing the petition!

http://www.petitions24.com/reopen_harrisons_rocks_toilet_block
Trangia - on 03 Nov 2013
In reply to DingBat:

Now just 31 signatures short of 1,000
woolsack - on 03 Nov 2013
In reply to DingBat: Over the 1000 mark now!
DingBat - on 03 Nov 2013
In reply to woolsack:
and now 1,078

birdie num num - on 03 Nov 2013
In reply to DingBat:
I normally like an al fresco shit in the woods at Harrisons
DingBat - on 03 Nov 2013
In reply to birdie num num:
Not a lot of choice at the moment. Watch out for ferocious squirrels.
DingBat - on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Now over 1,150
dereke12000 - on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Any news on today's meeting??
DingBat - on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to dereke12000:
Hi Derek
Please see end of
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=567671&v=1
Skirmish won. Amenities to reopen. Hurrah!
Sarah Cullen - on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to dereke12000:
Sport England have agreed to get the toilet block up and running again by January. The Forestry Commission have agreed to keep the toilet block if a non-commercial organisation (meeting their funding requirements) takes on the lease in November 2014. The Parish Council are keen to help find a solution to the long term future of the car park, toilet block and campsite.
woolsack - on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to DingBat: Big thumbs up for all who have worked so hard to get this to happen!
Gordon Stainforth - on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to Sarah Cullen:

What great news. Power to the (sandstone) people!
dereke12000 - on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to DingBat:

Excellent!!
Trangia - on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to Sarah Cullen:

Great news!
Trangia - on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to DingBat:

The petition has achieved it's objective, so don't you think it would now be appropriate to close it?
Oceanrower - on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to Trangia: I think it should continue, If only to keep the matter in the public eye.

There's still the little matter of finding a suitable body to take over the lease!
DingBat - on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to Oceanrower:
I am tending to agree. Many people are just becoming aware of the issues and the stakeholder's responsibilities. As the petition owner I feel that to keep it live gives parties with interest in the whole matter a focus and bulletins and updates can be given to them as a critical mass.

Meanwhile.... Richard Fox, a non-climbing dog walker who brought parties together for yesterdays' meeting has asked me to make this announcement regarding the meeting outcomes:

“ Pending the Parish Council’s formal announcement all I can say is that it was a very productive meeting and agreement was reached that will enable the toilet block and general facilities at Harrison's Rocks to reopen. We have had assurances that this will be in January 2014 after remedial repairs have been carried out. We also agreed what has to be done to secure the long term and we will be working with the Parish Council and the main stakeholders to prepare for a practical and sustainable entity to be put in place before the current lease expires.”

I hope the BMC will take a centre stage role in securing the long term future for climbers.

ads.ukclimbing.com
DingBat - on 12 Nov 2013
In reply to DingBat:
And the lights are on centre stage....
badwabbit on 13 Nov 2013
This is great news.

It would have been nice for the petition owner to issue some kind of announce to those that signed to let them know the outcome - I had to go rummaging around to find out if anything happened as a result...
DingBat - on 15 Nov 2013
In reply to badwabbit:
I have not posted because until copies of the minutes taken from the meeting of 4th November are published by the parish council, nothing is certain.
I will post to the petition web site over the week- end detailing where the campaign is currently.
Thank you for your support
DingBat - on 20 Nov 2013
In reply to DingBat:
Great news from Scott Titt at the London and South east Region BMC meeting at the Alpine Club. For the right (scale of) redevelopment Sport England's ongoing commitment to Harrison's may well be forthcoming.
Oceanrower - on 20 Nov 2013
In reply to DingBat: 'tis good news indeed.

And thanks for all you've done. I have no doubt that without your petition there would be no camp site next year.

Beers on me in the Junction.
thelurker - on 21 Nov 2013
In reply to DingBat:
what he said was that sport england may be able if asked to use some capital from the accumulated reserve to build a smaller more sustainable scheme. he was clear that there would be no ongoing funding from sport england,

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