/ Harrison's Rocks toilet block- please sign the petition
The petition is directed towards SPORT ENGLAND Uk who under the terms of a lease with the Forestry Commission have a duty to operate and maintain Harrision's Rock's Car Park, Jullie Tullis camp site and Toilet block in the interest of Rock Climbers, walkers and the residents of the village of Groombridge.
The toilet block has remained closed for over six months now with Sport England holding funding and responsibility to complete repairs having done nothing to bring the facilities back into use, their only actions appearing to be with the lessor to demolish the block, despite their moral obligation to complete repairs and maintain usage.
I hope all UKCers will support this campaign, even if you are not a fan of Southern Sandstone. It's all we've got down here and the permanent loss of toilet facilities is likely to result in the surrounding woods becoming littered with loo paper and shit in much the same way that parts of Font have been affected, an inevitable result of increasing footfall to the rocks and area, particular at summer weekends.
Thanks for this. We have a great team of qualified tradesmen lined up. Sport England have refused us access to complete a survey and are refusing point blank for any remedial work to take place- very obstructive, so much for the 'big society'.
Local climbers are dealing with a 'jobs worth' situation where climbers are not effectively represented - have no voice - the sports council have agreed with the forestry commission to demolish the block next November when the lease runs out- meanwhile they can't be bothered to solve the problem on behalf of climbers( we are a minority sport! - sic)
Please could I ask that you circulate the link to club members and informal groups of climbers? Hopefully someone with power and influence will take note.
Looking at previous threads, it appears the BMC also prefer not to have the toilet block repaired, favouring demolition and a bigger car park. Will a petition to SE help if they know that climbers own representitive body don't support it ?
I don't think that presents the BMC's position at all.
I missed the last Sandstone Volunteers Group meeting as I was in Russia, but at the Sandstone Open Meeting I went to in May it was put forward as a bit more complicated than just getting a team together and doing the work (otherwise Malcolm McP and his tame plumbers and sparkies would have been in there the next day!). It was presented at that meeting as being quite a tricky set of legal responsibilities between Sport England, the Forestry Commission and the BMC, with various requirements in leases, some parties preferring demolition etc. It wasn’t possible for the BMC just to take on the lease or to just go in and dpo interim repairs.
It seemed back than that the HRMG (Harrison’s Rocks Management Group) and BMC were doing all they could through normal channels, but that the Forestry Commission and Sport England were being particularly obstructive.
As I said, I missed the last SVG meeting acouple of weeks ago, but would be interested to know what information was presented there that might have a bearing on this. I'm sure it was discussed and some ideas put forward. Anyone have a set of minutes and could post the relevant section?
A* Al thank you.
> I don't think that presents the BMC's position at all.
it does from this ?
2 days in and over 100 signatures.
That's great! Keep it up UKC!
The relevant bit is:
<<However the BMC thinks that a far better use of the money SE have set aside for repairs, would be to use it in re-landscaping the upper car park to provide as many spaces as possible, rather than invested in a resource that only has an 18 month lifespan. >>
Sport England would, under the terms of the lease, be required to return the building to the Forestry Commission in the same state they received it in, so have put aside money to make the repairs required to do so. However, once the block is returned to the FC, IT (the FC) intends to demolish it, even though it would now be in good condition, so the funds spent on it would be wasted.
My understanding (from attending several Sandstone Open Meetings and SVG group events in the last 2-3 years) is that the BMC's position is that IF THE TOILET BLOCK IS TO BE DEMOLISHED ANYWAY then the funds earmarked for its repair would be better spent on improving the parking. That doesn't mean the BMC wants to see it demolished.
The BMC has said that it doesn't have the funds to run the car park AND to maintain, repair and run the toilet block. The voluntary car park charge barely covers the cost of collecting it as so many people don't bother to pay.
All kinds of options to retain the toilet block have been discussed, and the BMC is certainly, as far as I can tell from the various meetings, keen to see it refurbished and in use. A much better idea of the BMC's position can be obtained by attending Sandstone Open and SVG Meetings where HRMG and BMC officers give more detailed insights into legal and financial positions than they can in brief articles on websites where the main message was for people to stop using the campsite pending a solution being found.
I did sign the petition, BTW.
Thanks for signing rob
This is a fast moving situation the politics really need a full understanding But please help by asking others to sign- the ordinary climber bod needs a voice.
This is the nub of it Mr. Woolsack. If we lose it it will never come back. In the mis- quoted words of Dennis Gray " responsibility was passed on from the sandstone climbers club to the BMC "
Could I draw attention to the remarks of a surveyor who visited the site? Please follow petition link and read comment number 5.
> It wasn’t possible for the BMC just to take on the lease or to just go in and dpo interim repairs.
> It seemed back than that the HRMG (Harrison’s Rocks Management Group) and BMC were doing all they could through normal channels, but that the Forestry Commission and Sport England were being particularly obstructive.
done and spread about a bit on Fb
It's worth it just for the traverse :-)
If people paid the suggested charges for parking it probably would. I did a count one evening and less than 20% of the cars leaving dropped money in the box.
It is a ridiculous situation, but sadly there are many climbers out there who don't/won't pay for parking even though the money used to go towards maintaining the site and loos. There is a surprising number of climbers who have the attitude that "climbing, and access for climbing, should be free", but they are sadly misguided in this instance, because the voluntary car parking charge was for parking (with loo facilities), not the climbing. There is totally free access to the rocks.
There are also a large number of walkers, and dog walkers who use the car park and loo facilities.
Yes it's very sad that this situation had been reached, but demolishing the loo block is a retrograde step, and it needs putting into repair which is what Sport England covenanted to do. They should honour their obligation.
After that it will be up to the climbing fraternity and local walkers and dog walkers to find a way of keeping the loos in repair, which is separate issue to the current problem.
The money is there apparently with Sport England- Please dont confuse with climbers voluntary contributions for car parking (Which when collected are granted by the Julie Tullis trust to support Woman's and disabled expeditions )
Please keep this thread clear of other (important as they may be issues;) BUMP!
Please spread the word and keep bumping this thread
> It's worth it just for the traverse :-)
Thanks for this Al. Has anyone actually done the traverse- I thought It was mythology...
Have now refreshed my memory of whats been said on this (in public) via all the articles/ press releases published - does anyone know why pay to park was dismissed by the forestry commission?
Cheers, and keep up the good work.
> Thanks for this Al. Has anyone actually done the traverse- I thought It was mythology...
Well I can't remember if I ever actually did it all in one, though it was usually well chalked up when I was a regular, I certainly did long sections of it.
Thanks for your brilliant support- a fantastic response so far.
Could I ask that if you have not already done so you circulate the link via face book and twitter?
If you belong to a club please circulate and encourage others to join the campaign?
With enough signatures Sport England will take note I'm sure.
Did you know that back in the '70s it only took 270 signatures to get the loos and car park built there in the first place?
Can you imagine the state of the rocks and woodland if the tens of thousands of people who have visited the rocks since then had not had the facility?
"the BMC's position is that IF THE TOILET BLOCK IS TO BE DEMOLISHED ANYWAY then the funds earmarked for its repair would be better spent on improving the parking."
so presumably the BMC don't in theory support your petition which wants the funds spent on repair, regardless of whether the block is demolished next year ?
Have you visited Harrison's?
I think the BMC really wants the facility, but is at odds about how to successfully manage it .The BMC need to persuade Sport England (who have the lease) and the forestry commission (who leased it to them) to see sense.
The car park and toilets were built for a very good reason in the 70's. The reasons haven't changed. To compare with Stanage is strange. If you gave peak climbers the chance of a civilised crap rather than ducking down behind a boulder, wouldn't they take it? The point is we have something which we could lose unless climbers get behind the idea of saving the facility. I hope the BMC will not abandon southern climbers and work with Sport England on our behalf.
Sorry Al, I've just reread your post and now realise what you were driving at. Bump!
I'm working on the tee shirt and mug design as we speak!!!!
229 signatures this morning ! Great effort UKC !
Even if you dont/never intend to climb here you should sign it.
Otherwise all those southern climbers will be disgusted by the state of the area and start heading north and crowding the crags up here!!!!
> Even if you dont/never intend to climb here you should sign it.
The very points I made on my thread "The Silent Majority", but thanks to those who have chosen not to remain silent, and a further nudge to those who may still be thinking about it.
BTW to anyone who wants to remain anonymous, you can chose to sign without your name being published.
> There's been talk of locals getting together and sort it out
^^^This is the future.^^^
If the BMC want/feel the need to chuck the towel in then it'll be local management that will see it survive. Seems a shame that the world needs to end in November 2014
I'd like to agree- but thanks to all the people who are signing!
We're all on the same side I guess.Its great to see that so many people are reading about the issues and some people at the far ends of the earth have taken time to sign.
By signing your also supporting the legions of young people who have been to Harrisons with youth groups/ scouts etc who will not have a voice with Sport England or the BMC- Now there's another silent majority.
Yes, proir to starting this petition a large number of local climbers seemed to have permission from the BMCs Harrisons Rocks Management Group to conduct a survey with a view to bringing the block back into use ASAP.
The group had a qualified surveyor and certified trades people with a variety of skills to do a 'big society' approach to the problem. However, when Sport England found out they stopped the project in its tracks by denying access on H&S grounds- hence the petition as the way forward. The view of the qualified surveyor (who managed to visit once) was that the block could be brought back into use very easily. (See his comment on the petion website) I can kind of see it from the Sport England view- but I also happen to think the H&S risk of human detrius in the waterways and woodlands around the crag is much bigger and Sport England's stance adds to this risk on a daily basis and that they have sole responsibility for the unfolding (toilet paper joke?) situation.
Done. Shared. Bump.
I think that's a FOI request- its a public body and those figures should be in the tax payers domain.
I think it's pretty clear that not a lot (nothing) has been spent on maintenance this year- because the place is closed!
And sadley that not enough had been spent on maintenance in previous years to get to the point that they are condemning it now.
> I think that's a FOI request- its a public body and those figures should be in the tax payers domain.
> I think it's pretty clear that not a lot (nothing) has been spent on maintenance this year- because the place is closed!
> And sadley that not enough had been spent on maintenance in previous years to get to the point that they are condemning it now.
I may give them something to do then. Let us see what they have *not* been spending
Come on climbers! If you've just got in from the wall like me sign the petition and show you care!
Now over 350 signatures
That's fantastic- spoke to lots of people at the wall last night who have still to sign- lets set a target of at least 500... what do people think?
Let's see what we get..
Great- well done. I believe FOI rules say 21 days to make a return to the request.
If you have signed and are reading this please could you send on the link via facebook and twitter or to your climbing club members who may not have seen the petition yet.
Come on UKC! This is a great cause and the signatures have been coming in steadily for the past couple of days. Don't let the momentum wane. If you haven't signed yet, please do, and persuade your friends, partners/spouses and family to join in. We are now just 13 signatures short of 400 which shows the strength of feeling here.
Great! Thank you!
Thanks for the re tweet Mile End wall
402 signatures! Brilliant, yes, lets hope we will reach, and exceed 500?
Come on UKC. If you havent signed the petition do something for your sport!
> Come on UKC. If you havent signed the petition do something for your sport!
Ahem, climbing is not a sport.
But I've signed it anyway. :)
I wont go there!
Lunch Bump- Please sign! 431 have!
I think it's a daily commitment, with cleaning and ensuring consumables are refreshed. It's also important that camp site dues are collected. I personally think it need managing effectively and professionally rather than relying on the great and the good...
I believe in the good intentions of the BMC, Forestry Commission and Sport England but recon that the processes of stakeholders working together to look after the facility effectively on behalf of climbers has broken down, and all three need to re-read their mission statements before they meet together next. If the funding from Sport England, the good will from the Forestry Commission and the a shoulder to the wheel from the BMC don’t come together in a meaningful way our (minority) sport has really been shat on and the efforts of out predecessor in gaining the facility wasted.
I think that (at the time of writing) nearly 500 climbers all saying the same thing is very powerful, a bit like an electronic mini version of the mass trespass of kinder scout where just 400 ramblers from Manchester made the same statement.
Come on all climbers- do something that will make a difference Sport England are now watching the petition- it's time to have our say as a sport!
The response has been overwhelming. Great to see the climbing community and locals so united.
Just 16 signatures short of 500 now! Come on ukc.....
Fantastic! Now past the 500 mark. Well done UKC please keep up the momentum and continue to tell your friends , who may not have seen it yet, of this petition.
Sport England can't continue to ignore this strength of feeling
Just a thought. I haven't been up to Harrisons for a few weeks now. You may have already done it, but I wondered if prominent notices on the Notice Board and on the doors to the toilet block itself, drawing attention to the petition and link aimed at climbers, walkers and dog walkers are worth considering? I'm not certain if there is a warden any more, but if there is maybe he/she could do this?
I'm down there on Sunday so I'll put some notices up then!
If you're seeing this for the first time please sign.
Bump! Who wants to be # 550?
Breaking news .....Sport England, the forestry commission, the BMC and the parish council are to meet on 4th November to discuss the toilet block (and therefore camp site's ) future.
A copy of the petition will be given to Sport England then, but they are already aware to this rank and file response -There are currently 562 signatures - please could I urge all to circulate the link and encourage others to sign? As public bodies the organisations involved must surely want to take notice of climbers wishes.
Yeah brilliant - people are really wanting to go for a civilised pooh!
Just back from Harrison's - what a sorry state everything locked up in the autumn gloom. A lovely building though. It will be a shocking shame to lose it....
600 and counting! Brilliant!
Ok so has everyone lying in bed an extra hour asked there partner to sign?
Not many climbers out today- but ive put the link up!
Thank you all who do know why the amenities are so important at Harrison's
In reply to DingBat:
Has anyone from the BMC signed yet?
Let's keep bumping this thread guys. More people need to sign
I'll keep asking - has anyone from the BMC lifted their mouse? - we want to know that you are onside with access and "Working for climbers, hill walkers & mountaineers"
Keep signing! Thanks to those climbing walls who are now promoting the petition!
Signed. Number 673.
Thanks Craig. This thread has had nearly 4,000 views on UKC now and may well reach 700 signatures soon. The comments on the petition web site are well worth a read to see how important the reopening of this facility is.
Now on 678. Come on UKC just another 22 signatures and it'll be 700, so if you haven't signed yet PLEASE do!
> Now on 678. Come on UKC just another 22 signatures and it'll be 700, so if you haven't signed yet PLEASE do!
Have you managed to track down some of the schools and youth groups who use the facility?
No, but I've been in touch with a climbing wall I use regularly, and also with a freelance instructor who has signed.
They are the real silent majority that this petition is trying to support...
> Has anyone from the BMC signed yet?
Well BMC? Has anyone from the BMC signed yet? If not, why not? I can't believe the BMC is unaware of this petition.
I've had 3 responses from BMC officials all citing different disappointing reasons for not wanting to sign. The reality is that the BMC has sport England as their paymaster and this relationship seems to stifle what I would hope for from the representative body that's taken my subs since 1978.
I did get an offer from one official to write an update, of the current situation. The only thing on the BMC website is the notice of closure and intention to bulldoze- so an official update might be nice for the 700 folk who have signed the petition.
I don't want to alienate or demonise anyone helping to find a solution - we are all on the same side I hope. I do feel that more could and should be done- this is the Information Age. Our BMC has an iPhone app and now it's own tv stream channel surely we can have an update ?
> I hope all UKCers will support this campaign, even if you are not a fan of Southern Sandstone. It's all we've got down here and the permanent loss of toilet facilities is likely to result in the surrounding woods becoming littered with loo paper and shit in much the same way that parts of Font have been affected, an inevitable result of increasing footfall to the rocks and area, particular at summer weekends.
So if you lose your toilet facility permanently, why should that cause the surrounding woods to become littered with loo paper and shit. Just do what dog owners do and pick it up with a plastic bag and take it away, not difficult.
> Just do what dog owners do and pick it up with a plastic bag and take it away,
or toss it into the nearest bush?
No seriously, you know and I know that realistically folk don't always do the sensible thing. Toilet blocks are the norm for camp sites in a civilised society, and this is all about preserving an amenity, so PLEASE sign the petition.
Please come and climb at Harrison's then sign the petition
Can we push it over 700 signatures tonight???
Yes well done that man !
Over 700 signatures now
I hope nobody's anti BMC but I do think its legitimate to question actions and choices they make on our behalf. Its democracy and accountability in action when it happens!
704 good and great have signed. No, Alan James hasn't yet- but there's plenty of time before the petition is handed to Sport England on the 4th November. It might be that the petition hasn't been visible enough .....
It´s Alan´s choice to tell people whether he has signed or not, I´d have asked his permission before starting yet another witchhunt.
Yes you're right. Apologies Alan- still time to sign the petition.
Are you going to list the other 99% of registered UKC users who haven't signed? Including myself now, whatever the merits of the case.
Thanks Paul. I'll apologise again.
Please sign the petition. It's a great resource for all climbers, a great camp site next to the rocks etc
Lunch time bump
That's a tad petty, don't you think? If you feel you should sign it, sign it. No reason you can't do that *and* get pissy with DingBat.
Thanks. Climbing is a broad church and clearly not everyone wants to keep and improve the amenities climbers have. I'd invite all who've never climbed there to come and see Harrison's camp at the Julie Tullis, drink a pint of Harvey's and sit round the fire and enjoy the truly inclusive atmosphere. I'll remind myself this is a petition about the closure of the amenities up until the lease expires November 2014. Thanks to all those from UKC who are signing. I hope it will make a difference when parties meet.
On 718 signatures now. Brilliant response- keep it coming!
Morning bump. Please keep those signatures rolling in.
726 and counting.... I heard from Elizabeth Holley BMC Regional Development Officer (London & South East) yesterday that the BMC would update everyone on the current situation.
Remember, the only thing they have said publicly so far is that there is no money, and no will to keep the amenities open, so I hope there will be some glimmers of hope in this new statement.
Please keep bumping and signatures rolling in! Support is growing in many areas outside this forum.
Come on UKC, help by singing this grass roots petition
I spoke to the surveyor who visited the toilet block recently. He said that with the volunteer labour of qualified (climber) tradesmen already assembled it would only cost £1,000 to £1,500 to sort out the problems and get the block open.
Why can't the BMC negotiate with Sport England to let this happen?
> I'm curious to know why Sport England don't intend to renew their Lease see http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=567671
> It seems that they are just dumping (no pun intended) their support towards climbing as a sport?
I also fail to see why they feel that maintenance of a toilet block doesn't fit in with their funding remit. It certainly does according to the statements on their website. I think if it were a badminton facility in a leafy borough with a good throughput of fatties it would be a different story. Maybe we don't tick enough of their boxes any more?
It is very strange that the support for this long term commitment is ending given the doubling of the size of the grant made to the BMC from Sport England. Did they simply forget to include outdoor climbing in the South East in the bid? Or was there a conscious decision? If so where was the consultation with climbers in London and the SE area and where are the meeting minutes?
It really shouldn't be an insignificant irritating issue for the BMC to address.From the BMCs own web pages:
"London and the South East have the highest number of BMC members."
Still waiting for news. I'm expecting "Mother knows best"
Please see BMC thread. At last Dave has written something, though we're no closer to understanding many things
Have you seen what Dave Turnbull is saying on the other thread titled "Harrison’s Rocks - BMC position & update" ? Reading this and the London and South East Area Meeting minutes things are becoming clear.
Basically, we're being let down really badly by the BMC. They really haven't challenged the other stakeholders regarding keeping the amenities open and don't appear to want to
We have been SO let down by our 'professionals'.
Dave Turnbull and the executives need a fresh approach- what about it Dave?
There is a rank and file demand for the BMC to show leadership with negotiations with Forestry Commission and Sport England.
800 signatures now.
Simon far far away seems to have hit a nail on the head!
Have you seen the trend line on the statistics tab of the petition?
Only bears shit in the woods.
The response to the petition today has been fantastic - 3 more to sign to make 100 signatures in a single day. Fantastic response.
Keep spreading the word. Some folks are finding out about this fiasco for the first time.
> The response to the petition today has been fantastic - 3 more to sign to make 100 signatures in a single day. Fantastic response.
> Keep spreading the word. Some folks are finding out about this fiasco for the first time.
Nonsense! No organisation is perfect but people with your view are very much in a minority. Climbing is full of opinionated folk so being right for everyone is impossible anyhow. However, if a clear groundswell of members push on an issue they will always take it up.
> However, if a clear groundswell of members push on an issue they will always take it up.
Hmmm...the locals here, who put in vast amounts of voluntary labour in crag maintenance, may find that hard to swallow. We've been banging on about the toilet block for several years now and above the level of Harrison's Rocks Management Group, it seems to be a one-way street.
In my work life, something like this would be sorted out in a few weeks. There's the groundswell here, in spades, and a lot of goodwill and willingness to put time into doing what's needed, but at the national level there just seems to be a "roll over and accept Sport England/ the FC's position" attitude.
I was defending the BMC at the start of this thread, but as I've become more aware of what's being going on (having midsed a fairly crucial meeting), it seems as if all the ideas, initiatives and desire to get stuck in has been coming from locals with little or no support from the hierarchy.
Signed this morning.
This was the first place I ever climbed over 30 years ago, an amazing place with a great atmosphere. Julie Tullis taught my parents to climb here. Don't let this place fall into ruin - sign the petition please!
> Nonsense! No organisation is perfect but people with your view are very much in a minority. Climbing is full of opinionated folk so being right for everyone is impossible anyhow. However, if a clear groundswell of members push on an issue they will always take it up.
Well I don't know about nonsense Offwidth, talking to people, this is how they feel, so the BMC needs to deal with the perception as well as the reality. I do agree with you about groundswell. The stats page on the petition web site shows that more and more people are finding out about the demise of the amenity.
Read the comments page of the petition: these are not UKC people, I think everyone on UKC (except most paid executives and offices of the BMC) have signed the petition long ago. The petition continues to grow because people can't believe what's happening and how little the BMC has done / is doing to retrieve the situation.
Over 900 now!
P.S. It looks like you work/have worked for the BMC (?guidebooks)??
Morning bump. Come on UKC one final push over the weekend and there should be over 1,000 signatures by Monday which is the deadline for the meeting between the BMC, FC and Sport England. If you haven't signed yet, PLEASE do and spread the word.
Keep it live! We may get past the 1000 mark today
I'm not asking you to like everything they do, just don't deny the good work they do do and that in some of the thinks you dislike you may be in a minority position. I got into guidebooks because I thought they had some usability and grading issues in otherwise excellent researched volumes. The huge amounts of work I did was purely voluntary (and I'm pleased to have been part of a transformation from problematic to exemplary in the areas I was concerned with). If you think something is wrong, volunteering to help resolve the issue and lobbying from the inside is better than throwing eggs from the outside.
956 climbers say this is important. Please help by signing the petition!
Now just 31 signatures short of 1,000
and now 1,078
I normally like an al fresco shit in the woods at Harrisons
Not a lot of choice at the moment. Watch out for ferocious squirrels.
Now over 1,150
Any news on today's meeting??
Please see end of
Skirmish won. Amenities to reopen. Hurrah!
Sport England have agreed to get the toilet block up and running again by January. The Forestry Commission have agreed to keep the toilet block if a non-commercial organisation (meeting their funding requirements) takes on the lease in November 2014. The Parish Council are keen to help find a solution to the long term future of the car park, toilet block and campsite.
What great news. Power to the (sandstone) people!
The petition has achieved it's objective, so don't you think it would now be appropriate to close it?
There's still the little matter of finding a suitable body to take over the lease!
I am tending to agree. Many people are just becoming aware of the issues and the stakeholder's responsibilities. As the petition owner I feel that to keep it live gives parties with interest in the whole matter a focus and bulletins and updates can be given to them as a critical mass.
Meanwhile.... Richard Fox, a non-climbing dog walker who brought parties together for yesterdays' meeting has asked me to make this announcement regarding the meeting outcomes:
“ Pending the Parish Council’s formal announcement all I can say is that it was a very productive meeting and agreement was reached that will enable the toilet block and general facilities at Harrison's Rocks to reopen. We have had assurances that this will be in January 2014 after remedial repairs have been carried out. We also agreed what has to be done to secure the long term and we will be working with the Parish Council and the main stakeholders to prepare for a practical and sustainable entity to be put in place before the current lease expires.”
I hope the BMC will take a centre stage role in securing the long term future for climbers.
And the lights are on centre stage....
It would have been nice for the petition owner to issue some kind of announce to those that signed to let them know the outcome - I had to go rummaging around to find out if anything happened as a result...
I have not posted because until copies of the minutes taken from the meeting of 4th November are published by the parish council, nothing is certain.
I will post to the petition web site over the week- end detailing where the campaign is currently.
Thank you for your support
Great news from Scott Titt at the London and South east Region BMC meeting at the Alpine Club. For the right (scale of) redevelopment Sport England's ongoing commitment to Harrison's may well be forthcoming.
And thanks for all you've done. I have no doubt that without your petition there would be no camp site next year.
Beers on me in the Junction.
what he said was that sport england may be able if asked to use some capital from the accumulated reserve to build a smaller more sustainable scheme. he was clear that there would be no ongoing funding from sport england,
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