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This is the result of a beer-fueled conversation with a friend I hadn't seen in months last night. He's a smart and well rounded guy, so I respect all of his opinions.
Anyway, I mentioned my long term plans to move away from London up north, probably to Manchester. He strongly opposed the idea and managed to discern that part of my motive is to become more independent from family and build my confidence. And being able to climb more regularly too.
He told me it wouldn't solve my issues. That real confidence only comes from within, not how we interact with the world, and that fake confidence is the same thing as real confidence after a while. I agree with the latter part, since being able to fake confidence should in itself give you confidence. But I disagree about the first. Surely confidence comes from how we perceive ourselves, and if we respond to the world as we expect of ourselves or better than we improve our self perception.
What do you think? Is any venture which has as an aim the building of confidence doomed to failure, regardless of the successful completion of the task?
Anyway, I mentioned my long term plans to move away from London up north, probably to Manchester. He strongly opposed the idea and managed to discern that part of my motive is to become more independent from family and build my confidence. And being able to climb more regularly too.
He told me it wouldn't solve my issues. That real confidence only comes from within, not how we interact with the world, and that fake confidence is the same thing as real confidence after a while. I agree with the latter part, since being able to fake confidence should in itself give you confidence. But I disagree about the first. Surely confidence comes from how we perceive ourselves, and if we respond to the world as we expect of ourselves or better than we improve our self perception.
What do you think? Is any venture which has as an aim the building of confidence doomed to failure, regardless of the successful completion of the task?
In reply to Trevers:
No!
I think we should make choices that increase rather than erode our self-confidence. I used to do a job that eroded my self confidence, because I didn't believe in it. When people asked me what I did for a living I was embarrassed to tell them. When I was at work, I felt like a fraud, as I sat in meetings and had to spout off about stuff I didn't really know enough about. All of this was bad for my self confidence.
I'm now part way through a venture to work in a profession I believe in, and already it has increased my self confidence. When I'm finally qualified and experienced and actually good at it, I think that this will really help me feel more confident, as I will have put a huge investment and effort into changing my life, and achieved it successfully.
Even as a thoroughly pessimistic person, I still believe that success in this venture will increase my confidence (and it's going very well, there's pretty much no way I'm going to fail).
Confidence can come from knowing yourself well and making choices that end you up in the right "niche". Choosing the right people, relationships, jobs, locations, hobbies, etc all contribute to confidence. Poor choices in these things can erode confidence.
> What do you think? Is any venture which has as an aim the building of confidence doomed to failure, regardless of the successful completion of the task?
No!
I think we should make choices that increase rather than erode our self-confidence. I used to do a job that eroded my self confidence, because I didn't believe in it. When people asked me what I did for a living I was embarrassed to tell them. When I was at work, I felt like a fraud, as I sat in meetings and had to spout off about stuff I didn't really know enough about. All of this was bad for my self confidence.
I'm now part way through a venture to work in a profession I believe in, and already it has increased my self confidence. When I'm finally qualified and experienced and actually good at it, I think that this will really help me feel more confident, as I will have put a huge investment and effort into changing my life, and achieved it successfully.
Even as a thoroughly pessimistic person, I still believe that success in this venture will increase my confidence (and it's going very well, there's pretty much no way I'm going to fail).
Confidence can come from knowing yourself well and making choices that end you up in the right "niche". Choosing the right people, relationships, jobs, locations, hobbies, etc all contribute to confidence. Poor choices in these things can erode confidence.
In reply to Trevers:
We are more or less the same age and I did a similar thing almost exactly a year ago, moving from the North of England to Glasgow for various reasons.
Why is you friend so opposed to the move? It must be more than your motives, I've met a few people most would consider 'Well rounded' who have lived their entire lives in the same city and can't imagine life outside or why anybody would want to leave permanently. Does he feel as though he will lose a close friend forever?
Surely confidence comes from experience, regularly 'coming out of your comfort zone' to use that awful phrase.
It has been said before on these forums that life changing decisions can take a long time to adjust to. It might take six months for you to stop kicking yourself for causing a load of upheaval in your own life but if you think it will be better in the long term, get on and do it!
We are more or less the same age and I did a similar thing almost exactly a year ago, moving from the North of England to Glasgow for various reasons.
Why is you friend so opposed to the move? It must be more than your motives, I've met a few people most would consider 'Well rounded' who have lived their entire lives in the same city and can't imagine life outside or why anybody would want to leave permanently. Does he feel as though he will lose a close friend forever?
Surely confidence comes from experience, regularly 'coming out of your comfort zone' to use that awful phrase.
It has been said before on these forums that life changing decisions can take a long time to adjust to. It might take six months for you to stop kicking yourself for causing a load of upheaval in your own life but if you think it will be better in the long term, get on and do it!
In reply to Trevers:
No, and I also agree with Jon's comment:
"I'm now part way through a venture to work in a profession I believe in, and already it has increased my self confidence. When I'm finally qualified and experienced and actually good at it, I think that this will really help me feel more confident, as I will have put a huge investment and effort into changing my life, and achieved it successfully. "
Confidence comes from competency and or aptitude. You can be either naturally gifted at something and therefore be confident in your ability / knowledge or you need to work at something in order to get knowledgable, experienced etc. (competent).
However, I disagree with your comment "faking confidence". In my opinion people who fake confidence come across very quickly as "people who fake confidence" which (again IMO) gives the opposite impression.
Also Trevers, don't listen to your friend . . . . . go for it. As a 48yr old I can tell you you will regret it in later years. E.g. when I was in my 20's I saved about 8 or 10k to go travelling (mainly surfing) around the world but was persuaded by my dad to by a house with it instead. I now have lovely big house but I also have an overwhelming desire to travel around the world and, with being 48, am always paranoid that when I finally get the chance to do it I'll be too old and unfit to enjoy it.
No, and I also agree with Jon's comment:
"I'm now part way through a venture to work in a profession I believe in, and already it has increased my self confidence. When I'm finally qualified and experienced and actually good at it, I think that this will really help me feel more confident, as I will have put a huge investment and effort into changing my life, and achieved it successfully. "
Confidence comes from competency and or aptitude. You can be either naturally gifted at something and therefore be confident in your ability / knowledge or you need to work at something in order to get knowledgable, experienced etc. (competent).
However, I disagree with your comment "faking confidence". In my opinion people who fake confidence come across very quickly as "people who fake confidence" which (again IMO) gives the opposite impression.
Also Trevers, don't listen to your friend . . . . . go for it. As a 48yr old I can tell you you will regret it in later years. E.g. when I was in my 20's I saved about 8 or 10k to go travelling (mainly surfing) around the world but was persuaded by my dad to by a house with it instead. I now have lovely big house but I also have an overwhelming desire to travel around the world and, with being 48, am always paranoid that when I finally get the chance to do it I'll be too old and unfit to enjoy it.
In reply to Trevers: have you ever thought that your friend is displaying 'fake self confidence' here.
I suspect he doesn't want you to move away for him not you.
You are clearly showing sufficient self confidence in making plans to move away from London.
Do it if you really want to. As another has said, if you don't you may regret it in later life. If you do move and don't like it you can always move back.
Often people advise against life changing actions because of their fear of the unknown on behalf of the person making the change.
If you have put in place enough to ensure your move is safe, go for it.
I suspect he doesn't want you to move away for him not you.
You are clearly showing sufficient self confidence in making plans to move away from London.
Do it if you really want to. As another has said, if you don't you may regret it in later life. If you do move and don't like it you can always move back.
Often people advise against life changing actions because of their fear of the unknown on behalf of the person making the change.
If you have put in place enough to ensure your move is safe, go for it.
In reply to Trevers:
Real confidence is internal but most of us have to develop that and thus fake confidence helps to build that.
As you say confidence is how we perceive ourselves. It is that which needs to be worked on. If you do not work on that then no amount of fake confidence will help
Real confidence is internal but most of us have to develop that and thus fake confidence helps to build that.
As you say confidence is how we perceive ourselves. It is that which needs to be worked on. If you do not work on that then no amount of fake confidence will help
In reply to Trevers:
To me it is a mix.
You grow real confidence through knowing that you are capable.
You learn that you are capable, through experience.
You gain experience by pushing at your comfort zone.
I don't think that 'fake confidence' eventually turns into real confidence, but maybe by pretending you are confident, you might actually push your comfort zone, which will give you the experience to develop real confidence.
Maybe your family are a bit over protective of you, and so end up stopping you just doing things for yourself?
But then there are people with plenty of experience, who are still not confident - so I do think it is partially internal, and to do with how you see yourself. Go with your heart - in the end, if you try moving and it doesn't work out, you can always move back. And it will give you a different perspective on your family and life at home if nothing else.
To me it is a mix.
You grow real confidence through knowing that you are capable.
You learn that you are capable, through experience.
You gain experience by pushing at your comfort zone.
I don't think that 'fake confidence' eventually turns into real confidence, but maybe by pretending you are confident, you might actually push your comfort zone, which will give you the experience to develop real confidence.
Maybe your family are a bit over protective of you, and so end up stopping you just doing things for yourself?
But then there are people with plenty of experience, who are still not confident - so I do think it is partially internal, and to do with how you see yourself. Go with your heart - in the end, if you try moving and it doesn't work out, you can always move back. And it will give you a different perspective on your family and life at home if nothing else.
In reply to Trevers: Sometimes you just have to say "bugrrit, I'll do it anyway". Friends and family can erode, whether deliberate or not, your self-confidence to the point you _think_ you don't have any. If you have a dream, or opportunity, grab it with both hands, make it happen, and dont look back. You'll make mistakes for sure, but in later life you will regret the things you didn't do more than the things you did.
In reply to Trevers:
Also, think of it this way: London offers a lot of jobs that can only be done there, and has world class arts and culture. But if these things aren't your priorities, then a northern city like Manchester, Leeds or Sheffield offers far higher quality of life. Everything is A LOT cheaper. The countryside and crags are A LOT nearer. Climbing on Stanage (or Almscliffe or wherever) if you have a couple of spare hours any time of the year is amazing. As a climber, it's dead easy to meet people who are into the same stuff and have a similar view of life.
My advice would be: think practically, don't ruminate. What are your priorities? How can you achieve them?
Also, think of it this way: London offers a lot of jobs that can only be done there, and has world class arts and culture. But if these things aren't your priorities, then a northern city like Manchester, Leeds or Sheffield offers far higher quality of life. Everything is A LOT cheaper. The countryside and crags are A LOT nearer. Climbing on Stanage (or Almscliffe or wherever) if you have a couple of spare hours any time of the year is amazing. As a climber, it's dead easy to meet people who are into the same stuff and have a similar view of life.
My advice would be: think practically, don't ruminate. What are your priorities? How can you achieve them?
In reply to Jon Stewart:
You say that as if those three cities are kinda sorta the same. Worth noting perhaps that in terms of arts/culture and general bustling, cosmopolitan big-city-ness Manchester is in a different league to Leeds or Sheff.
> London offers a lot of jobs that can only be done there, and has world class arts and culture. But if these things aren't your priorities, then a northern city like Manchester, Leeds or Sheffield offers far higher quality of life.
You say that as if those three cities are kinda sorta the same. Worth noting perhaps that in terms of arts/culture and general bustling, cosmopolitan big-city-ness Manchester is in a different league to Leeds or Sheff.
In reply to deepsoup:
Yes, absolutely. Not so good for evening cragging though (but better for weekend trips to N Wales and Lakes). As I say, it's all about priorities.
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
> [...]
>
> You say that as if those three cities are kinda sorta the same. Worth noting perhaps that in terms of arts/culture and general bustling, cosmopolitan big-city-ness Manchester is in a different league to Leeds or Sheff.
> [...]
>
> You say that as if those three cities are kinda sorta the same. Worth noting perhaps that in terms of arts/culture and general bustling, cosmopolitan big-city-ness Manchester is in a different league to Leeds or Sheff.
Yes, absolutely. Not so good for evening cragging though (but better for weekend trips to N Wales and Lakes). As I say, it's all about priorities.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
But pretty good for evening cragging - far, far better than London! There are 8 trag crags within 11 miles of Manchester city centre...
> Yes, absolutely. Not so good for evening cragging though
But pretty good for evening cragging - far, far better than London! There are 8 trag crags within 11 miles of Manchester city centre...
In reply to Jon Stewart: You should come to Cardiff.
In reply to Trevers:
This is a well-known theme (at least in Greek literature and I am sure in others) e.g. http://www.flashpointmag.com/polis.htm - there are others too on the same theme that I'v come across. The premise is that unless you change yourself things won't be different in another place, your problems will still follow you. I think there is some truth in this but it depends...
...back to reality, London can be a tough place to live (expensive, everything takes ages, not necessarily very friendly etc) - I am about to move out myself. So I guess the answer is it depends what kind of problems you are hoping to get away from - some might follow you but others won't.
Also, since we're at it, this is one of my favourite poems: http://www.cavafy.com/poems/content.asp?cat=1&id=74
In summary, it really is the journey and not the destination that matters - so I'd say do the move if that's what you feel is the best thing to do, try things out, learn from it and try to enjoy it. All places have positives and negatives... You can always come back to London if things don't go to plan and you would have learned something at the very least.
I think life is too short for playing it safe and not following your dreams - everybody makes mistakes and no one can tell you whether this will work out or not, so you might as well try it and make the most of it!
Just my 2p...
(PS I am really not a literature buff, in fact the complete opposite but these are the two things that have stuck from school so hopefully there's some meaning in them).
This is a well-known theme (at least in Greek literature and I am sure in others) e.g. http://www.flashpointmag.com/polis.htm - there are others too on the same theme that I'v come across. The premise is that unless you change yourself things won't be different in another place, your problems will still follow you. I think there is some truth in this but it depends...
...back to reality, London can be a tough place to live (expensive, everything takes ages, not necessarily very friendly etc) - I am about to move out myself. So I guess the answer is it depends what kind of problems you are hoping to get away from - some might follow you but others won't.
Also, since we're at it, this is one of my favourite poems: http://www.cavafy.com/poems/content.asp?cat=1&id=74
In summary, it really is the journey and not the destination that matters - so I'd say do the move if that's what you feel is the best thing to do, try things out, learn from it and try to enjoy it. All places have positives and negatives... You can always come back to London if things don't go to plan and you would have learned something at the very least.
I think life is too short for playing it safe and not following your dreams - everybody makes mistakes and no one can tell you whether this will work out or not, so you might as well try it and make the most of it!
Just my 2p...
(PS I am really not a literature buff, in fact the complete opposite but these are the two things that have stuck from school so hopefully there's some meaning in them).
In reply to Trevers:
I take issue with confidence being classed as a single entity; you can be confident in your ability to do a single task, but still have low confidence that you will be accepted by others, for example. However, I would agree that confidence comes from within. IMO, it is being able to fully accept yourself, and have self knowledge of what your strengths and weakness are.
Does that mean that external circumstances have no impact on confidence? Not at all. How can you know where your strengths and weaknesses lie if you never take a chance and see how you respond to a change or an event? How can you accept yourself when you aren't living a life that is true to yourself? I can see where your friend is coming from, but our inner selves are in constant interaction with the outer world, and I think it would be very difficult to isolate the two. Introspection and working on psychological issues that have stifled our confidence throughout our lives is hugely important, but at some point you have to put that into practice and see where the chips fall.
I take issue with confidence being classed as a single entity; you can be confident in your ability to do a single task, but still have low confidence that you will be accepted by others, for example. However, I would agree that confidence comes from within. IMO, it is being able to fully accept yourself, and have self knowledge of what your strengths and weakness are.
Does that mean that external circumstances have no impact on confidence? Not at all. How can you know where your strengths and weaknesses lie if you never take a chance and see how you respond to a change or an event? How can you accept yourself when you aren't living a life that is true to yourself? I can see where your friend is coming from, but our inner selves are in constant interaction with the outer world, and I think it would be very difficult to isolate the two. Introspection and working on psychological issues that have stifled our confidence throughout our lives is hugely important, but at some point you have to put that into practice and see where the chips fall.
In reply to Trevers: I not sure your friend is as smart or well rounded as you think he is. Or maybe it was just the beer, talk to him when your sober next time, you might get more sense out of him.
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
+1
Simply moving to a new location in the belief that things will magically improve won't work, but moving with the aim of changing your lifestyle, or in conjunction with getting a job that you really believe in will work, if you put the effort in.
Faking confidence may well work short term, for example being out of your comfort zone chairing a meeting or giving a presentation, but it's a lousy mantra to live by.
> (In reply to Trevers) I not sure your friend is as smart or well rounded as you think he is.
+1
Simply moving to a new location in the belief that things will magically improve won't work, but moving with the aim of changing your lifestyle, or in conjunction with getting a job that you really believe in will work, if you put the effort in.
Faking confidence may well work short term, for example being out of your comfort zone chairing a meeting or giving a presentation, but it's a lousy mantra to live by.
In reply to Trevers:
Thanks for the thoughts everyone, some interesting ideas and very reassuring.
I know the northern cities well. Lived in Leeds for 4 years and I've had numerous nights out in Manchester and Sheffield. Definitely feel better suited to those cities than to London.
I was bothered I guess because I do have misgivings about moving. I can't quite work out whether it's nervousness at leaving everything behind, or a real feeling that it would be a mistake. In the long run, I stand to regret more by not going though.
Thanks for the thoughts everyone, some interesting ideas and very reassuring.
I know the northern cities well. Lived in Leeds for 4 years and I've had numerous nights out in Manchester and Sheffield. Definitely feel better suited to those cities than to London.
I was bothered I guess because I do have misgivings about moving. I can't quite work out whether it's nervousness at leaving everything behind, or a real feeling that it would be a mistake. In the long run, I stand to regret more by not going though.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
That really depends where you live in Manchester.
> (In reply to deepsoup)
> [...]
>
> Yes, absolutely. Not so good for evening cragging though (but better for weekend trips to N Wales and Lakes). As I say, it's all about priorities.
> [...]
>
> Yes, absolutely. Not so good for evening cragging though (but better for weekend trips to N Wales and Lakes). As I say, it's all about priorities.
That really depends where you live in Manchester.
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