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I have just returned a new ME tupilak as having worn it 3 times in continuous heavy rain or continuos light rain I became wet.
I'm looking for a reliable waterproof jacket with good level of breathability as my old Rab event jacket doesn't seem to hold its waterproof ness after 10 or so years, although it hasn't had a great deal of hard use.
Any ideas for a jacket for hiking, scrambling and winter?
I'm looking for a reliable waterproof jacket with good level of breathability as my old Rab event jacket doesn't seem to hold its waterproof ness after 10 or so years, although it hasn't had a great deal of hard use.
Any ideas for a jacket for hiking, scrambling and winter?
In reply to cmr132:
Was something wrong with the jacket? I guess fabrics can fail but this seems very rare.
You don't say what your expectations are or experience is - if you walk up hill in a goretex on day when its not very cold (or actually when it is cold as well) loads of us would get soaked because we sweat much more than any waterproof breathable material can breath.
If you go out on a minging day of wind blown rain, you always get a bit wet, it gets in round the hood - drips down your face or hair, we pull our hoods down for a bit to do something etc etc.
I've not used one but I suspect the Tupilak is about as good a goretex shell as you're going to find. If you were very unlucky and there was something wrong with the material, then surely they just give you a new one. If not I suspect that you're not going to find another jacket that is much better for the same usage.
If it is sweat that is getting you wet, then possible NeoShell or eVent might be better as they seem to breath a bit more, but both have other downsides, eVent in particular seems to need a lot of care to keep it at its best.
> I have just returned a new ME tupilak as having worn it 3 times in continuous heavy rain or continuos light rain I became wet.
Was something wrong with the jacket? I guess fabrics can fail but this seems very rare.
You don't say what your expectations are or experience is - if you walk up hill in a goretex on day when its not very cold (or actually when it is cold as well) loads of us would get soaked because we sweat much more than any waterproof breathable material can breath.
If you go out on a minging day of wind blown rain, you always get a bit wet, it gets in round the hood - drips down your face or hair, we pull our hoods down for a bit to do something etc etc.
I've not used one but I suspect the Tupilak is about as good a goretex shell as you're going to find. If you were very unlucky and there was something wrong with the material, then surely they just give you a new one. If not I suspect that you're not going to find another jacket that is much better for the same usage.
If it is sweat that is getting you wet, then possible NeoShell or eVent might be better as they seem to breath a bit more, but both have other downsides, eVent in particular seems to need a lot of care to keep it at its best.
In reply to cmr132: As Toby says, the Tupilak is about as good a Goretex shell as you can find today.
You may want to think about your clothing system. What were you wearing under the jacket? If it was anything other than one or two lightweight, moisture-wicking layers, then I'm not surprised you got soaked through. Apologies if I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs but your layers need to work in combination to keep you dry. And that means avoiding cotton, or too many layers. Of course you may have suffered a rare poorly constructed garment. In which case you are unlikely to be so unlucky the secodn time round.
Unless you are an ice climber I wouldn't actually recommend the Tupilak. It's very much a climber's garment. You might end up more comfortable in something cut a bit roomier. And perhaps try Goretex Active or Neoshell. But you can't beat Goretex Proshell once you start scraping up mixed chimneys!!
You may want to think about your clothing system. What were you wearing under the jacket? If it was anything other than one or two lightweight, moisture-wicking layers, then I'm not surprised you got soaked through. Apologies if I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs but your layers need to work in combination to keep you dry. And that means avoiding cotton, or too many layers. Of course you may have suffered a rare poorly constructed garment. In which case you are unlikely to be so unlucky the secodn time round.
Unless you are an ice climber I wouldn't actually recommend the Tupilak. It's very much a climber's garment. You might end up more comfortable in something cut a bit roomier. And perhaps try Goretex Active or Neoshell. But you can't beat Goretex Proshell once you start scraping up mixed chimneys!!
In reply to cmr132:
I'm not too sure what was wrong with the jacket but I was soaked after light rain and heavy wind in the Breacons. I''m a scout leader and in the search and rescue and staying dry and comfortable is very important to me even in bad weather. Hard to tell if it was sweat or water but I lost faith in the jacket very quickly. On both occasions I was wearing a merino wool light t shirt and nothing else, I wasn't hot and sweaty.
I'm not too sure what was wrong with the jacket but I was soaked after light rain and heavy wind in the Breacons. I''m a scout leader and in the search and rescue and staying dry and comfortable is very important to me even in bad weather. Hard to tell if it was sweat or water but I lost faith in the jacket very quickly. On both occasions I was wearing a merino wool light t shirt and nothing else, I wasn't hot and sweaty.
In reply to cmr132: Your lucky to have had ten years out of it. My Montane Event fabric coat has never been waterproof since day one. I stay dry when fishing in my 15 year old goretex coat. I try to layer properly but my forearms are wet straight away in the Event coat. The fabric also pilled badly under the arms and the shoulders with only light use. Sometimes wonder if I got a fake.
In reply to cmr132: If you were soaked after light rain I suspect that it's going to be sweat. Especially if the water was beading off the outside of the jacket?
I'd wait until ME return their verdict before looking for another jacket. If they find a fault with the jacket then fair enough, they should replace it. If there isn't then another jacket isn't going to be any different.
I'd wait until ME return their verdict before looking for another jacket. If they find a fault with the jacket then fair enough, they should replace it. If there isn't then another jacket isn't going to be any different.
In reply to cmr132:
If you're in an MRT don't you get issued kit?
> and in the search and rescue and staying dry and comfortable is very important to me even in bad weather.
If you're in an MRT don't you get issued kit?
In reply to cmr132:
Lowland search, we don't get issued with kit. Luckily Cotswold have returned the jacket for a full refund whilst I look at other options.
Lowland search, we don't get issued with kit. Luckily Cotswold have returned the jacket for a full refund whilst I look at other options.
In reply to cmr132:
PARAMO! Could well be too warm for summer, and a little heavier to carry, but for a jacket to put on at the start of the day and take whatever conditions get thrown at it keeping you comfy, they are brilliant!
PARAMO! Could well be too warm for summer, and a little heavier to carry, but for a jacket to put on at the start of the day and take whatever conditions get thrown at it keeping you comfy, they are brilliant!
In reply to cmr132: Will you let us know if there was something wrong with the material? If not, I suspect you are going to be disappointed with any goretex jacket. Unless there was a fabric fault on the Tupilak I wonder if you just have too high expectations of what goretex or similar can do?
In reply to sharpie530:
As long as you don't mind dressing like a pensioner. Not to mention walking like one with all that weight on your back
> (In reply to cmr132)
>
> PARAMO! Could well be too warm for summer, and a little heavier to carry, but for a jacket to put on at the start of the day and take whatever conditions get thrown at it keeping you comfy, they are brilliant!
>
> PARAMO! Could well be too warm for summer, and a little heavier to carry, but for a jacket to put on at the start of the day and take whatever conditions get thrown at it keeping you comfy, they are brilliant!
As long as you don't mind dressing like a pensioner. Not to mention walking like one with all that weight on your back
In reply to BnB:
They are certainly not the best looking brand, although some of their new stuff is getting there. With regards to the weight I always take it that I need one less layer if I have a paramo on. Also I very rarely change layers with the paramo, other than if its cold and I stop for a bit. I just use the zipped vents. In winter I use the mountain vent pull- on with the aspira smock. Neither look particularly good, but they do just work!
They are certainly not the best looking brand, although some of their new stuff is getting there. With regards to the weight I always take it that I need one less layer if I have a paramo on. Also I very rarely change layers with the paramo, other than if its cold and I stop for a bit. I just use the zipped vents. In winter I use the mountain vent pull- on with the aspira smock. Neither look particularly good, but they do just work!
In reply to sharpie530: Paramo do have a large community of fans I admit. A mountain guide acquaintance has been wearing his for 20 years. For those that run fairly warm I think they are a tad cumbersome and lack the flexibility of a modern layering system. Others swear by them.
And after all, it's what makes you happy that matters.
And after all, it's what makes you happy that matters.
In reply to cmr132:
I've been using a Crux Flak for a while and that has been great. Really simple, no frills and very robust. I seem to recall they did a pullover/anorak version as well which would have even more integrity.
I've been using a Crux Flak for a while and that has been great. Really simple, no frills and very robust. I seem to recall they did a pullover/anorak version as well which would have even more integrity.
In reply to cmr132: Ive only got praise for my Montain Equipment Ogre jacket
In reply to cmr132: I was lucky enough to get the new Changabang jacket through my work at a very good price, the only part which gets "wet" is the pockets and it did say that they are not waterproof.
I have felt damp inside of it but that was only from sweat and when looking into the rain, there is a like four holes on the jacket, head, hands and the big one at the bottom.
water can seep in through anyone of these when out walking, or even looking into the rain. Did you have your hood up in the light rain ?
I was told that the only time gore - tex wont be waterproof is when you put a hole in it or fall in to a river.
I have felt damp inside of it but that was only from sweat and when looking into the rain, there is a like four holes on the jacket, head, hands and the big one at the bottom.
water can seep in through anyone of these when out walking, or even looking into the rain. Did you have your hood up in the light rain ?
I was told that the only time gore - tex wont be waterproof is when you put a hole in it or fall in to a river.
In reply to TobyA:
I think the main point should be that any material that breathes, is NOT "waterproof"
Every jacket I've ever had which claims to be waterproof, has wetted out and leaked. Some times after minutes some times after hours. Every single jacket I've had, has cost over £300 and come from all of the top "brands"
Even though they state it's waterproof, you just have to expect that you will get wet eventually.
I think the main point should be that any material that breathes, is NOT "waterproof"
Every jacket I've ever had which claims to be waterproof, has wetted out and leaked. Some times after minutes some times after hours. Every single jacket I've had, has cost over £300 and come from all of the top "brands"
Even though they state it's waterproof, you just have to expect that you will get wet eventually.
In reply to xplorer:
Well all the manufacturers will take issue with that, and say that 20 000 mms is definitely waterproof.
eVent is known to be more prone to leaking because it does not use the PU layer to protect its ePTFE as goretex does. It seems that it is more reliant on you having to clean it carefully and regularly. Once dirty water can move the wrong way through the membrane. My understanding is that Goretex or PU-only waterproof/breathables don't tend to leak, the out layer can wet out - particularly once the DWR wears off - and then they stop breathing, the dampness inside is probably sweat not getting out, not rain getting in.
> I think the main point should be that any material that breathes, is NOT "waterproof"
Well all the manufacturers will take issue with that, and say that 20 000 mms is definitely waterproof.
> Every jacket I've ever had which claims to be waterproof, has wetted out and leaked. Some times after minutes some times after hours. Every single jacket I've had, has cost over £300 and come from all of the top "brands"
eVent is known to be more prone to leaking because it does not use the PU layer to protect its ePTFE as goretex does. It seems that it is more reliant on you having to clean it carefully and regularly. Once dirty water can move the wrong way through the membrane. My understanding is that Goretex or PU-only waterproof/breathables don't tend to leak, the out layer can wet out - particularly once the DWR wears off - and then they stop breathing, the dampness inside is probably sweat not getting out, not rain getting in.
In reply to TobyA:
Once the DWR wears out the garment starts to wet out ie not bead up at all, its then when you ought to think about giving it a re proof in grangers or nikwax (grangers is better though in my opinion).
Once the outer garment wets out the molecular transfer of sweat vapor escaping won't be able to take place, ie air wont pass through water. That's why most people complain about there gore-tex feeling "wet" on the inside if they dont clean and re proof it every now and then.
I have seen loads of people trying to buy new jackets where i work after having there current one for two years and complain its getting wet on the inside so they must buy a new one, and seem quite surprised that they have to re proof it !
> My understanding is that Goretex or PU-only waterproof/breathables don't tend to leak, the out layer can wet out - particularly once the DWR wears off - and then they stop breathing, the dampness inside is probably sweat not getting out, not rain getting in.
Once the DWR wears out the garment starts to wet out ie not bead up at all, its then when you ought to think about giving it a re proof in grangers or nikwax (grangers is better though in my opinion).
Once the outer garment wets out the molecular transfer of sweat vapor escaping won't be able to take place, ie air wont pass through water. That's why most people complain about there gore-tex feeling "wet" on the inside if they dont clean and re proof it every now and then.
I have seen loads of people trying to buy new jackets where i work after having there current one for two years and complain its getting wet on the inside so they must buy a new one, and seem quite surprised that they have to re proof it !
In reply to BarmyAlex118: Or even just iron it.
In reply to cmr132: imho the most important thing with a modern hard shell is fit. as in, does it fit you in the way it was designed to ? modern technical jackets are designed to be close fitting, so if you are a different shape to the manufacturers spec their jacket wont fit you . spend half a day going round lots of shops trying on lots of jackets and you ll soon see that one or two jackets fits you a lot better than the others. they will almost certainly be the jacket that performs the best for you. keswick, ambleside, covent garden are good places to do this. i ve only done this once, because i wasnt paying. half a day in keswick .totally open mind. buy the one that fits best, rather than your favorite brand.
I have reproofed the Rab event jacket without success, its over 10 years old and a wet/snowy day left me rather wet and cold as it soaked through after a short amount of time.
I think perhaps Paramo might be worth a look or a different brand. I don't think I will find out about whether the Tupilak was faulty as Cotswold offered a full refund. It may have been a bad one but afterall I am looking for a jacket that keeps me dry.
I think perhaps Paramo might be worth a look or a different brand. I don't think I will find out about whether the Tupilak was faulty as Cotswold offered a full refund. It may have been a bad one but afterall I am looking for a jacket that keeps me dry.
Did Cotswold actually advertise it as water'proof'?
There is no mention of it being water'proof' on the Cotswold site. Water'proof' & 'heavily water resistant' are 2 different things.
Was it you who just thought gortex was water'proof' maybe?
http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/mountain-equipment-mens-tupilak-jacket-2013-...
.
There is no mention of it being water'proof' on the Cotswold site. Water'proof' & 'heavily water resistant' are 2 different things.
Was it you who just thought gortex was water'proof' maybe?
http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/mountain-equipment-mens-tupilak-jacket-2013-...
.
In reply to Removed UserAvaunt:
> Did Cotswold actually advertise it as water'proof'?
>
> There is no mention of it being water'proof' on the Cotswold site. Water'proof' & 'heavily water resistant' are 2 different things.
>
> Was it you who just thought gortex was water'proof' maybe?
>
> http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/mountain-equipment-mens-tupilak-jacket-2013-...
> .
Yes it's waterproof.>
> There is no mention of it being water'proof' on the Cotswold site. Water'proof' & 'heavily water resistant' are 2 different things.
>
> Was it you who just thought gortex was water'proof' maybe?
>
> http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/mountain-equipment-mens-tupilak-jacket-2013-...
> .
In reply to cmr132:
Yes its 'implied' that way in the add, I went through their add again, in para 2 it says: "but still just as waterproof".
That is misleading advertising wording on the part of Cotswold, the add, inc para 2, does not actually state the jacket is water'proof', but strongly implies that Gortex is waterproof.
I think the OP & maybe others read to much into the adds beyond the adds statements 'as facts'.
What the add does 'not' state is - 'The jacket is waterproof',- it strongly > 'suggests' < that gortex is waterproof but it does not state that as fact either - quote - "but still just as waterproof" - that statement of fact should not be read as "This jacket is waterpoof"...
.
Yes its 'implied' that way in the add, I went through their add again, in para 2 it says: "but still just as waterproof".
That is misleading advertising wording on the part of Cotswold, the add, inc para 2, does not actually state the jacket is water'proof', but strongly implies that Gortex is waterproof.
I think the OP & maybe others read to much into the adds beyond the adds statements 'as facts'.
What the add does 'not' state is - 'The jacket is waterproof',- it strongly > 'suggests' < that gortex is waterproof but it does not state that as fact either - quote - "but still just as waterproof" - that statement of fact should not be read as "This jacket is waterpoof"...
.
In reply to Removed UserAvaunt:
Read the advert any way you like. ProShell has a hydrostatic head of 28,000mm, this is a waterproof product, if it isn't waterproof there is a fault with the garment.
Read the advert any way you like. ProShell has a hydrostatic head of 28,000mm, this is a waterproof product, if it isn't waterproof there is a fault with the garment.
In reply to cmr132:
Quote - a hydrostatic head of 28,000mm -
Well please explain what "hydrostatic head" means in the context of clothing fabric,in a way it can be understood - thanks.
.
Quote - a hydrostatic head of 28,000mm -
Well please explain what "hydrostatic head" means in the context of clothing fabric,in a way it can be understood - thanks.
.
In reply to Removed UserAvaunt: It's goretex, like all goretex things for the last 30 years plus, I suspect that the Tupilak came with a big shiney swing tag yelling "guaranteed to keep you dry!" "engineered for extreme weather" etc etc.
If you want to understand goretex and similar fabrics, including hydrostatic heads, try
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4556
This is also jolly interesting on the business side of it
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/Insane-in-the-Membrane.html?page=...
If you want to understand goretex and similar fabrics, including hydrostatic heads, try
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4556
This is also jolly interesting on the business side of it
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/Insane-in-the-Membrane.html?page=...
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