UKC

http://www.break.com/video/why-you-shouldnt-rock-climb-2529520

In reply to Simon_Sheff: Or place better cams.

The whole film is linked from and discussed a bit on this thread: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=565609 it's a good film.

In reply to Simon_Sheff:

Yeah i know its mental - perfect wire slots!

I know people who do this all the time
.
I always go for nuts and then use cams as last resort, also means ive got the cams still there in an emergency.

In reply to The Pylon King:

Well perfect wire slots are also perfect cam slots ! A crap wire placement will pull out just as a crap came placement will.

Surely everyone slams in a cam into a perfect wire placement when pumped silly and a quick clip is a must ?

In reply to Simon_Sheff:


Aren't the lessons "don't place crap gear and then rest on it"?
And maybe "don't take a penduluming lob on a slabby route"? (at least it looks quite slabby)

In reply to The Pylon King:


Likewise. But I've also got pumped stupid trying to place the perfect nut when I should have just plugged in a cam and kept moving - more than once!

In reply to Jamie B:

I don't know about you, but all my cams have their own krab on them so plugging in and clipping is as fast as it can be. Worry about extending after making the clip !

In reply to GrahamD:


Yes, exactly, keep the cams for when you really need them!!

I have also placed a nut out of desperation and sat on it only for it to pop out and send me down a few metres. There is no way I am going to ignore a parallel sided crack crack with a cam though. Lots of times I have fired a cam in, found some nut placements in other cracks and then claimed the cams back for later, and who hasn't walked a cam up a crack with them as well?

In reply to Simon_Sheff: that looked painful. I got the impression he was going to rest on the gear and it ripped. unfortunate rather than stupid.

In reply to GrahamD:


Should be noted as well that this is I think probably the 13th pitch (not including 300 mtrs of scrambling that includes moves up to N5, so about 4c), and a lot of those pitches are 50 mtrs, up to N6+ (maybe E2-ish). Then there's still another good few pitches to go. So I expect the guy was in a hurry and already reasonably tired.

Accidents happen, and people make mistakes or get unlucky, at least they had gone and had a go at what has to be one of the finest routes in Europe.

In reply to Jamie B:

Yup... been there

E

In reply to Simon_Sheff: Perhaps a better watch phrase would be "Don't use a sh1t gear placement when you can use a good one." There is nothing inherently wrong with cams. Obviously a well placed cam is much better than a crap nut placement.

In reply to GrahamD:

No.

Good nut placements are tapered.

Good cam slots are usually parallel. If the cam walks into a wider part.....

In reply to The Pylon King: as ive only got 5 cams gotta use them effectivly so use nuts whenever possible and save my cams for desperate/quick need..

In reply to Simon_Sheff: youtube.com/watch?v=MW1teH6k9xo&

In reply to Rick Graham:



Talking about slightly tapered placements, as in the video - not in general. If there is a slight taper it increases the holding power of the cam immensely

In reply to Simon_Sheff:

It was a shit bit of gear, the accident didn't have to happen. He had but and cam opportunities galore.
Go pro .........,,

In reply to Simon_Sheff:

I think he thoroughly deserved all he got, purely for wearing a video camera on top his head.

In reply to Simon_Sheff:

Is it just me, or are Euro climbers far more cam-happy than we are?

In reply to Jamie B:

Being cam happy makes lots of sense when the route is 300+ Mtrs & every minute counts. Even more so if the weather is questionable or the last lift down is at 17.00hrs & the alternative is a 3 hour descent trudge fest!

In reply to Simon_Sheff: Atleast the bloke has a sense of humour, posting it on break...

In reply to Jamie B:

Or just less nut happy?

In reply to Fredt:

What an absolute clown you are! Amish boy!

In reply to walts4:


More like a 1000 mtrs in this case, and the descent requires roped climbing and an abseil followed by a multi hour trudge.

In reply to TobyA:

A great undertaking no doubt. I don't see what that has to do dogging it with a bit of shit gear, especially when options aplenty. It never looked like a good placement.

In reply to Hirosim:
Its easy to be wise in retrospect.

Without knowing the circumstances its hard to know all the factors involved but as pointed out on routes of this length speed is key and cams are often quicker to place and extract.

Apart from the cam blowing, what was shit about the placement? Perhaps it looked fine and the climber got pumped or didn't have time to place another bit (due to weather changes or taking too long on the route etc)

In reply to CurlyStevo:

After the event is when you've got time to think about what's gone wrong so yes it is easy to be wise in retrospect but it's also worth taking time to think about what went wrong so if you're in a similar position yourself the same outcome doesn't happen to you.


It would be interesting to get a more information about the event, like for instance what the climber themselves thought were the errors they made, I'm sure they've thought about it more than anyone else.


From the blurry view of it on the video it didn't look that fine, it looked like a small mastercam placed shallowly in an uneven bit of crack then rotated outwards as the climber rested on it.

It would be interesting to know if they thought it was fine, I suspect they were just knackered and rested on it despite their better judgement.

In reply to MeMeMe:


Looks to me like he gives it a tug to seat it and it pops,


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:
I think he rests on it look at the angle of his knees.

In reply to The Pylon King:

I agree. Cams are too useful as a get out of jail free card to waste on easy placements.

In reply to MeMeMe:
I've looked at the video a few times and I think the cam looked quite good for a downward fall (without too much side involved). It appears its possible that then his angle on to the placement when resting is too high and he pulls it too much sideways rotating the cam in to a poorer position.

However this is all speculation as I don't really think the video is clear enough to make firm conclusions.

In reply to CurlyStevo:


I think we can all agree with that!

Would be interesting to find out what the climber thought about it all.

In reply to MeMeMe:
by the way I personally agree it would be good hear what the climber thought went wrong.

If he did fall off on to what looked like an OK cam on ground he thought he wouldn't have too much of a problem with, on a long remote mountain route with time pressures I'm not necessarily thinking he did much wrong, he could have just got a bit unlucky. I'm sure we could all could have come unstuck many times in our climbing careers if we'd been a bit unlucky.

(I'm playing devils advocate here and suggesting an alternative scenario that could have happened with reasonable likely hood given the quality of the video, rather than suggesting this is what happened)

In reply to Simon_Sheff:
did he have nuts on him? (lots of French climbers don't carry nuts on alpine routes of this length for example)

had he already used the nuts of that size?

In reply to MeMeMe:


Agreed

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Looked like he only one piece of gear in below him. Anyway this is about fault or making excuses, none of of us were there. It was clearly a bit of shit gear though, i wouldn't of sat on it

In reply to Hirosim:
We don't know he sat on it deliberately, perhaps he fell when the footage cuts and the cam fails as he grabs it to get back on the rock. I'm just making the point that there is a lot of speculation going on here.

In reply to Hirosim:

So if you were there, pumped out your box, fingers uncurling, and unable to retreat to a rest... what exactly would you have done instead?

It's all part of the game, isn't it. It's easy to say you wouldn't do x and y, but when you up to your neck in desperation and tiredness things aren't necessarily thought through all that rationally.

In reply to Calder:

Good point


I guess if this video had been one of him putting in a nut, testing it, and falling, there would be a flood of comments saying, "why didn't he just stuff in a cam?"

In reply to Calder:

The only reason this case is different to any number of cases we have all been involved with at some point is:

a) he didn't get away with it
b) he filmed it

Anyone who hasn't ever been in that sort of situation clearly isn't trying.

In reply to Calder:


Put some more gear in on the way up, and not left it so late. Its not like he had to climb to that point to get gear in is it

In reply to Hirosim:
Out of interest have you done many 1000 metre long rock climbing routes?

It's very hard to know someone's experience level when their profile is as light as yours is.

BTW I thought the spacing of gear was about right given the route length, his last bit was around 2 metres before the bit that popped. But I've only done 1 route of that length. My experience was that when you're climbing very long rock routes some corners have to be cut and realistically this is going to increase the risk of more serious injury in a fall.

In reply to Hirosim:


>It was clearly a bit of shit gear though, i wouldn't of sat on it


I bet you're a bit harsh when you ARE finding fault.