UKC

Just got back from a trip to Kalymnos and was pretty shocked by the crappy belaying of almost all Italians using gri-gris. Most of the time the belayers just let go of the dead rope when the climber was resting and on a couple of occasions I noticed the belayer trying to chat up girls completely ignoring the climbing partner (other than to let rope out). No such slack attitude with Any other nationality.

Anybody explain why the difference? Technical understanding of gri-gris limits? Lack of caring? Laziness?

In reply to FatAz:

Did anyone get dropped?

In reply to FatAz:
My Italian friend can belay perfectly well with a gri gri.

In reply to FatAz:

Not ideal, but it's fairly unlikely a gri-gri will unlock if it's already locked with someone's weight on the end.

If wanting to do that, a quick overhand knot in the dead rope or clove hitch onto another krab would make it safe.

Neil

In reply to FatAz: Don't reckon that it is just the Italians that are bad at belaying on the Gri-Gri or any other device for that matter. I have climbed all over Europe and have seen some terrible belaying regardless of nationality. So to make comments about one nations climbers is rather unfair!

In reply to FatAz:

It proves beyond a reasonable doubt that too much pizza, pasta and wine is bad for belaying.

In reply to FatAz:

Misusing grigris is a universal trait, not just confined to Italians.

"on a couple of occasions I noticed the belayer trying to chat up girls" - okay, this might be an Italian trait

In reply to FatAz:

Basic linguistics. It's impossible to communicate in Italian without waving your hands about. Therefore to chat up girls Italians need to take their hands off the dead rope.

In contrast girls can be chatted up in English or German without use of the hands. French and Spanish require only one hand.

In reply to Jus:


Not brilliant for climbing either, I've found..

In reply to FatAz:

Not uncommon (from all nationalities) but sloppy. And even more worrying with the GG2, which seems to be more prone to slipping. I wouldn't tolerate anyone belaying me in this fashion.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


That where I've been going wrong all these years trying to learn french

Have nothing against Italians in general and the GG2 may lock well (ignoring its greater propensity to slip which I had no knowledge of), but shouldn't it be better to stand by the saying better safe than sorry and in Kalymnos it was only Italians (not all, but a sizeable proportion) who were belaying like this. There may be loads of ways to make the GG safer, but surely the easiest is just holding on to the dead rope. I mean come on, you don't even need to apply any force, just hold the thing.

In reply to FatAz: I wouldn't want to put money on it but I seem to recall that when the GriGri first came out it was advertised as as an auto-locking device. Myself and my peers at that time certainly bought them on that understanding so we were quite peeved when we were later told we were using them in an unsafe manner. I now use a Mammut Smart and consider it a better device and the design doesn't really encourage you to let go of the dead rope.

In reply to FatAz:

I personally think it's a cultural thing, with countries who are less H&S orientated as the UK being a bit more relaxed about things that 'could' go wrong.

The worst belaying I've seen was someone who was using a grigri as described by the OP but then when changing to an ATC again took their hand off the dead rope. eek! After a very hasty (swear) word to them it turned out he had never used one before and was borrowing it from his partner as he'd forgotten his gg. Just assumed it auto locked too!

In reply to Derry:

I have more than once acught myself with my thumb on top of an ATC when giving out rope. Not a huge issue in itself, I think, but it shows just how difficult it is to maintain separate sets of habits for separate devices.

In reply to FatAz: Come on guys! The grigri allows for that sort of use (I am referring to letting go of the dead rope): one should only be careful if she is using a brand-new rope, and buy a cinch if her rope has very small diameter. Anyway, if you hold a grudge against Italians because they send harder or have more success with women than you do, stop whining, train harder, get tanned and change haircut. I am joking, of course!!! But having climbed in many crags in Italy (I am Italian myself)I have never witnessed any accident due to poor use of the grigri. F

In reply to fezzi:

Looks like you agree with the OP then?

In reply to Vince McNally: Leaving the joke aside, it is pretty clear that I don't. What the OP describes does not seem to me a mistake in using the device. Grigris are meant to be used that way. Basic argument a contrario: if they did not function that way, why inventing them in the first place, instead of continuing to use already existing belay devices? In any case, experience of their functioning provides even stronger evidence than this that when the climber is resting the belayer can let go of the dead rope. Federico

In reply to fezzi: See my response above. In reality I think everyone accepts that GriGris will lock and that it's just Petzl covering themselves. I've just got back from Kalymnos and saw numerous climbers belaying and NOT keeping hold of the dead rope. I wonder if it's something to do with the Brit and Germam mentality when it comes to "rules".

In reply to GridNorth: I didn't know that Petzl advises to hold your hand on the dead rope.

In reply to fezzi:

See diagram at the bottom of Page 1:

http://www.petzl.com/files/all/technical-notice/Sport/D14-GRIGRI2.pdf

"Always hold the braking side of the rope."

In reply to Fraser:
I don´t hold the read rope when I´m ascending with a Grigri, nor when I stop om it abseiling. The Grigri was originally designed with this in mind.

In reply to fezzi:


But why do so? It's not strenuous to keep a hand covering it. What else is a belayer doing with his hands?

In reply to GridNorth:

I've also recently changed from using a GriGri to a Mammut Smart which I have found to be brilliant.
If you don't know how to use a GriGri this Steve McClure video explains it http://www.dailymotion.com/us/relevance/search/Grigri/1#video=x50vsu

In reply to Fraser:

A friend of mine was quite seriously hurt when a gri-gri wasn't being held and didn't lock. He hit the ground.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

There is quite a bit of information missing from this statement that might help to mitigate the incident - what rope was being used, was it threaded the right way, was the belayer stopping the camming action (as I've witnessed with dangerous frequency)?

In reply to higherclimbingwales:
Surely the problem is not holding the dead rope while the climber is moving and the rope is feeding. Once the device is loaded by a fall / rest and the rope is stationary it will hold so the hand on the dead rope can be released - but only after the device is 'locked'. The accidents I've heard about are from the GriGri failing to hold the initial force without a hand on the dead rope (usually because of someone holding it open, occasionally because of compression of the device blocking the camming, and occasionally because of rope slipping).
Petzl also say to never rope-solo on a shunt, but that seems perfectly safe (by climbing standards) if done properly and with correct backup. I guess they have to cover themselves by saying never let go of the dead rope.
That said, I would be interested if anyone has knowledge of GriGri's dropping someone once already 'locked'.

In reply to FatAz: VIDEO REVIEW: Assisted-braking Belay Devices
added Feb/2011, see all Edelrid, Mammut, Petzl, Climbing Technology or Trango---- The Italian click up is the best auto locking belay device as reviewed on UKC I'm suprised they did'nt have one.

In reply to Jamie B: Put your hands in your pockets if you're cold; grab something to eat, etc.

In reply to Andy Nisbet: Very sorry to hear this.

In reply to Fraser: Thanks for pointing this out. I am quite surprised.

In reply to fezzi:


Feel free to do that while I'm slumped on the rope. But before doing so would it be asking too much to spend five seconds putting an overhand knot on the bight on the rope? Thanks.

In reply to Jamie B: It's arguably quicker to feed a bight through the crab and hook it over the grigri. takes about 2 seconds.

What happens if the device is loaded and activated properly by a falling or sitting climber, the belayer removes their hands from the rope but then the climber pulls up on the wall, deactivates the locking action and then gently sits down again?

In reply to jwa: usually, there is enough friction from the diameter and weight of the rope to re-engage the device. there is a possibility that this might not happen if you have new skinny ropes with a dry treatment on them.

In reply to Jamie B:

Didn't you say girls were present ??

In reply to Erstwhile:

Italians talk with their hands. Well known stereotype, that

In reply to GrahamD:

Yes, I already noticed that. I was thinking of something different ...

In reply to jimtitt:

I wasn't saying it was right or wrong, simply pointing fezzi to Petzl's advice which he/she was clearly unaware of.

I appreciate it's a 'personal choice' thing, but I go ballistic if my Gri-ri-using belayer doesn't always hold the dead end of the rope when I'm leading. If something does go wrong for whatever reason, chances are it's me that's going to get hurt, not them. Accidents happen, so why take the risk and not always keep hold of the dead end of the rope?

In reply to Fraser:

Indeed. And if you *do* need to let go, shove an overhand on the bight into the rope, so if the Grigri did fail the knot would stop when it hit it.

FWIW, if ascending on a Grigri I do that as well, same with others I've seen doing this e.g. wall staff.

Neil