UKC

This is just bloody atrocious:

http://www.belgeinfo.com/boy-swith-toy-gun-shot-dead-deputy-kills-boy-13-ca...

In reply to Denni: I don't see how you can make that judgement on the information given.
It could be gung ho trigger happy cops or it could be a tragic mistake. You have to remember in America people do actually carry real guns like that, even kids sometimes, and police really do get shot and lots of them, so they their rules of engagement may well differ from ours.
Until more "facts" emerge whos knows?

In reply to Denni:

i'm waiting for further information, if the polices version is accurate then what where they supposed to do ? he had what was believed to be an ak47 and was repeatedly told to put it down and then he turned towards them. the one thing iam decided on is that toy guns are a dumb idea and especially if they look genuine

In reply to Denni:

In the UK I would agree since chances of it being real would be tiny.
In the US odds are trickier.

In reply to Denni:

'It comes a day after a 12-year-old boy in Nevada shot dead a maths teacher at his school'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24648974

In reply to Denni: OMG, they shot a boy with a TOY gun? what is the world coming to when the police decide to execute little boys playing with plastic toy guns. I'll bet the poor lad even had to make the noise of a real gun with his mouth to make it even more real. nananananananannaa

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

He was 20-30 feet away so he may not have heard them telling him to drop the gun and he had his back to the police.

He turns round and they shoot him. Some restraint and common sense should come into play don't you all think?

In reply to higherclimbingwales:


I'm not sure what sort of point you're trying to make but it's a pretty stupid one whatever it is.

In reply to Denni: Not really any more stupid than assuming it's as cut and dry as him turning to the police and them opening fire on him for no reason. I agree that the American police might not be as reserved as british armed police but I don't beleive they would shoot a kid with a toy gun for no good reason.

In reply to Denni:

Last year in america, more people were killed by toddlers with guns than terrorists....

I dont know what to think about this case until the full facts come out but i do know that their guns laws
(or the lack of them)are completely nuts.

This year, whilst visiting alaska, i saw some lovely bright pink fully functioning and completely lethal mini rifles for sale in walmart-a lovely gift for your average 4 year old to play with...disgusting...

Jon

In reply to higherclimbingwales: Given that its the US and the gun had a much higher chance of being real than it would over here, how were the cops supposed to ascertain that it was only a toy? Does an armed cop have to wait until he's shot at before returning fire?

In reply to Siward: Still shocking though

In reply to Siward:

A difficult choice faced by armed response every time they come up against something like this. Snap judgements taken in a split second that will stay with all concerned for ever. Looking at the clip the thing looks pretty realistic (it is mentioned that it may be a replica rather than a toy). How can you tell the difference from 20 - 30 feet?

Whatever happened, a sad loss for the family, but I bet it's not easy for the cops or their families right now either.

In reply to Denni:


As for common sense we don't know the circumstances surrounding the police decision to open fire, but in general terms, since you are making sweeping general statements, can you explain how a police officer exercises "restraint" when faced with what appears to be a lethal weapon being wielded by someone he/she believes is about to kill them? As for the age of the person, that's a red herring, a 13 year old is perfectly capable of aiming and pulling the trigger on an AK47, and as has been pointed out this incident follows a killing made by a 12 year old with a gun.

Fire arms officers have to make very quick decisions. The wrong one, as in this case resulted in the death of a kid with a replica, equally well the wrong decision on their part could have resulted in their own or someone else's death had the gun been real.

In reply to Denni: It's a sad reflection on the whole f*cked-up society.

You don't need to make any judgement about the police to say that it's atrocious that a child is dead. The police officer may have been forced into shooting by the US gun ownership/law/culture that means that the kid might have been armed.

In reply to Denni:
I wonder if the police were wearing those 'webcam' devices which are coming in? Would have been interesting if they had, easier to justify or condemn their actions?

Ultimately, the lads parents should probably have told him that carrying a fake AK47 in public is a very bad idea in USA and if the police arrive, do as you're told immediately.

So I blame the parents, for now.

In reply to Jon Wylie:


Yes and tragedies like this are an inevitable consequence of a lack of gun control.

A tragedy for the family and a tragedy for the police officers who will have to live with this for the rest of their lives.

In reply to Removed User:


...and a highly likely consequence of

a) walking about in a public place with a real (or realistic) firearm

followed by


b) not immediately doing as you are told when challenged by armed police.

In reply to Denni: From what I've read, I think the police were correct in their actions. The lad must have know that police will shoot people with weapons that don't do as they're told, and as far as the police were concerned, it was a weapon. It's not as if it looked like a super-soaker was it?

In reply to Firestarter:


As withnail pointed out up the thread, bright pink M-15s with Hello Kitty logos are quite fashionable in the States. Even if it looks like a kid's toy, it might not be.

In reply to Denni: As others have said, we shouldn't jump to conclusions in this case. It is tragic that someone has been killed, more so perhaps because it was completely needless.

Generally I would be inclined to agree with those arguing the case for the cops being trained professionals with a very hard job to do etc. but all the evidence I have ever seen (which I readily admit is limited and probably biased) suggests that police in the US have a frighteningly casual attitude to shooting and killing. I think of the hunt for the Boston bombers in which there were huge number of police who fired 300 rounds in the general direction of the suspect, who they eventually killed. It strikes me that firstly it is not the job of police to hunt people down and execute them, but that seemed to be their objective. Secondly, if it takes 300 shots to kill one person then they can't be very good shots. The more provincial police (based again on TV coverage) seem to be even worse, any resistance to arrest and the handgun comes out and they start shooting wildy at a fleeing suspect.

In reply to Denni:

Type "Open Carry" into youtube -

youtube.com/watch?v=rzw8jW0aCys&

Seems even if it was real, they still shouldn't have shot him! I wonder how they stumbled across him and decided he was a direct threat compared to the open carry mob - scary!

In reply to Oujmik: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Empire_State_Building_shooting

This was horrific.. 9 people shot by stray bullets..

the US police do shoot too freely, I had a gun pulled on me for a traffic offense.

In reply to IainRUK: They're probably more scared of getting as most Americans, victims of the pro-gun lobby.

In reply to IainRUK: getting shot I meant to say.

In reply to Denni:

Hi folks,
can someone better at googling than me, try and find the state where this happened police rules of engagement?
Cheers, Fen

In reply to Denni: If only they US government could enforce a gun ban. The country clearly needs it. Never going to happen, and utterly unenforceable

In reply to Lukeva: Maybe they could, it's just that they choose to accept big cheques from rich lobbyists.

In reply to Denni:
The reason American police are "free and easy" with their guns is that they have a lot more reason to be fearful. In a society riddled with guns who knows what's coming your way. How many British police have ever looked down the wrong end of a gun barrel? Not many but I'd be surprised if most US police hadn't either had a gun pulled on them or know collegues who had.

The first and third paragraphs here give some context

http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-2012-prelimina...

I got pulled for speeding one night in Yosemite, the very young and very nervous looking policeman held his hand very close to his gun until he found out I was an English tourist and relaxed a bit. I don't blame him in a country with so many guns.

In reply to Denni:

Feel free to volunteer to walk up to any one under the age of 16 in the US, carrying a 'gun' and take it from them.

I give you 6 weeks tops before you come home in a bag.