UKC

an 'interesting' experience this saturday.
-The ice was in a mess with rebar showing through in many places. all the routes were stepped out.
-poor/rude service akin to herding cattle.
-staff with little to no knowledge doing inductions/lessons
-£18 for a day membership/session!
-no supervision of the wall
-safety rules blatantly ignored
-ropes with the sheath showing

saying that i did enjoy it, but its an accident waiting to happen.

I should think this thread will be deleted but i hope someone reads it.

In reply to franksnb:
What did you say to the staff?

In reply to 999thAndy: I had the same experience, minus rude staff! Place was beat up badly! No one climbing apparently a staff shortage obviously no improvent since my last visit 2weeks ago, Hardly a Great Endorsement after the induction/members only farce

In reply to franksnb:

Surprised to find out it's now £30 for an induction. To be honest I think this is prohibitively expensive and quite ridiculous when those who already have experience are forced to fork out for what is essentially someone watching you belay.

I understand there are health and safety reasons why people have to be inducted but I don't remember paying anything like that (in fact I don't remember paying anything at all) to become a member of Glasgow Climbing Centre where you could be shown the ropes by an experienced friend and then simply demonstrate your ability to belay to a member of staff.

I see no reason why a similar approach could not be taken here.

I think they have to make their mind up whether they want to cater for regular climbers or market the place as a one off experience gimic.

In reply to franksnb:

I was there on Wednesday night. It was a bit hooked out in places but the climbing was fine (you could make it harder by not hooking!) and the condition of the ropes was good.

I wasn't registered on their computers but the desk staff managed to get it sorted out so I could climb without an induction by liasing with the Ice Factor.

It was quite an expensive evening but I enjoyed it. Had to pay £25 in total.

I doubt your thread will be deleted.

In reply to Wee Davie: it seemed everyone paid a different amount. Even in our wee group. I was only a tenspot

In reply to franksnb:

Strange post.

The ice is beat up that's true, but it is a sign of how busy it is and how little staff there are. Chris who works on it is a decent chap and not rude and is aware the ice needs patched up. He has been doing all night fixing sessions but he just can't do it himself. I believe they are planning on hiring some more staff to help out. You need to be creative to avoid hooking.

It only costs £10 a pop once you are registered. If you need to hire kit then buy your own.

Do you expect them to have someone standing at the wall the full opening hours? You have been assessed at an induction or shown you are a member of a climbing wall and know how to belay. Can you now show some self reliance?

What safety rules are being ignored?

Do you mean the core and not the sheath showing? I have been on every single rope and not noticed any that are dangerous and none which have the core showing.

In reply to Milesy: Have to say beyond some inexperience of the desk staff and them still finding their feet and yes the accepted bad wear right now on the walls I have to agree with Milesy. . Chris is a great guy, really committed to making it work but is under resourced right now and trying to do his best. The ropes are checked regularly and I know of at least one swapped out pronto after someone put an axe straight through it.

Maybe its me but after I pass induction and go to climb I don't expect anyone to watch me, surely safety is my job as a climber and checking ropes and making decisions to climb or not is part of it?

Just my opinion as always but Id rather support them (he has mentioned volunteers helping to patch walls) that bash what is a great facility that I use loads.

In reply to The Big Man:

>it seemed everyone paid a different amount. Even in our wee group. I was only a tenspot

It'll be a tenner for me too. I had to pay the tenner plus a joining fee of £15 to the Ice Factor to get registered on the system. Turns out since I hadn't been to the Ice Factor in the last year I wasn't a member.

Glad I didn't have to go through an induction...

In reply to franksnb:

I'm with Milesy and coachmacca on this one too I'm afraid.

Yes the ice is in a bit of a bad way - Chris had a week off when it wasn't getting the attention it needs on a day by day basis which meant it got a bit out of hand.

I haven't seen any dodgy ropes; on top of that - the guys there always seem to be tidying the ropes up to ensure that they're not being stepped on.

The prices are really decent in my opinion: £10 to climb, £10 for hire of all the kit (axes, harness, belay plate, helmet, boots, crampons). Compare that with GCC where it's £7.80 to climb and £5 for a harness, belay plate & shoes. That's the same kind of ball-park.

Can you elaborate on the poor/rude service akin to herding cattle? Are you meaning at the front desk or on the wall?

You can also daisy chain up your own ropes once finished with them and help look after the wall as well. We are all adults.

In reply to zebidee: One point, correct me if I'm wrong but it doesn't cost £30 to register at GCC. I think it's £10 or free for students. I think that is a lot more reasonable.

GCC have also offer unlimited climbing for £27 per month. The ice wall would definitely benefit from something like this. With the present pricing structure I would never go more than once a week and even then only in the run up to winter. I simply couldn't justify the cost.

I just hope they are willing to take feedback and adapt as time goes on. To keep my interest they would also have to introduce some new features such as actual route setting on the dry tool wall. Would also like to see more dry tooling options such as a low level dry tooling circuit wall.

Just my thoughts.

In reply to Wee Davie: I've not been for a year and still a member!

In reply to franksnb:

I went twice last week, and Chris and the guys were nothing but friendly.

I wouldn't want folks watching over me too much, although they were always there with less-experienced groups.

The ice does need work for sure, but as Milesy says, Chris is aware. I suggested that they could maybe have a wee volunteer night where we got to climb for free, but did an hour packing.

I have climbed on every rope too, and only noticed the one in the chimney had a frayed sheath. I pointed it out, and Chris is going to replace it, (though I feel it's only superficial, and you could pull it past to belay with it 'dead').

I don't think it's an accident waiting to happen, especially given their entrance requirements, (which are a little tiresome I accept).

I'll be there again this week I think......

In reply to franksnb:
Thanks for the feedback Frank.
Not sure I can agree with most of your comments though.
The Ice Wall has been incredibly busy over the half term holidays and unfortunately, this means the ice will get hacked - a bit like any of the popular winter climbs, when lots of bodies go on it, they get carved up. It takes about 5 days for ice to reform and therefore, during peak periods like half term, there is simply no way of repairing quickly enough.

Sorry you felt the service was rude, I was working on Saturday, and there was maybe 2,000 people through the doors, so it is always going to be a bit hectic, but I'd like to think all the staff here give a good account of themselves. I certainly didn't witness any rudeness and was on ticket desk / reception / ice wall throughout most of the day.

£18 for a day session, that is correct. The pricing structure is set up so that :

A. IF you do the induction / are a member of Ice Factor or an existing MIC then the price is £10. That is because, you will then have benefited from coaching and technique training (which is not only for safety, but ensures much less damage to the ice wall).

B. If you are an existing winter climber and don't want to do the induction - take out ice factor membership (£15) and then pay £10 to climb every time at Snow Factor

C. If you are an existing winter climber, don't want the induction, or membership - pay £18 - seem fair enough, hence the reason the wall is so popular.

The supervision of the wall is just the same as Kinloch, a pool of qualified Duty Managers, who take it in turn to examine the people climbing on the wall - their job is the safety of users / not to comment on techniques.

Safety rules are not blatently ignored. The same ABC policy as Kinloch is adhered to

Ropes with sheath showing. A bi-product I'm afraid of lots of people not doing induction / not being Ice Factor / Skilled Ice Climbers - means that we are replacing ropes on a near daily basis - but the ropes are replaced - not ignored. We have standard PPE checks throughout each day.

Folks, I appreciate the feedback, good and bad. The Ice Wall is in Glasgow, so is mega busy at peak times, ice is going to get chopped up faster than we can repair it during those periods, but the safety of users remains paramount. Thanks to those of you who put some balance into Frank's comments.
Cheers
Jamie

In reply to jampot:

ignoring feed back or getting defensive is the first step on the journey to failure!

the rude staff were on the front desk and the herders at the rental desk. a member of my party just helped himself to kit as no one mans the ice wall desk it seems!

I never met jamie, I bet he's a smashing chap. i don't blame him personally for the poor condition of the wall, that would be daft. they need more staff clearly. it doesn't change the fact that the quality was down. my suggestion would be to mobilise the community; if i lived in glasgow i would give a few hours of my time to packing ice.

the girl (who im sure is also super nice) seem fairly inept, ignore my and my collogues flagrant abuse of safety and equipment rules. now this in itself is fine because i am aware of the dangers BUT a newb with the induction under his or her belt will not be, in this case noticing safety issues is really important.

I didn't observe any coaching and technique training, £30 induction is just bleeding your customer. again i didn't see one of jamie's sessions, maybe its awesome in which case there is a serious disparity in quality of 'teaching'.

I paid 18 quid because this was the cheapest option (i have a feeling some will do this irrespective of experience) no one asked me if i was competent or check my competence or check i had the correct equipment.

I think having vertical point rental crampons would reduce wear on the wall. at the moment they are all mountaineering (as far as i noticed) horizontal crampons. not suitable for steep ice.

jamie have you got a beard? if so i saw you on my way out, nice beard.

In reply to franksnb:

The fact remains the majority of scottish winter climbers (in my observarion) wear G12 crampons out in the wild. That is what I wear in the wild and that is what I will wear to the wall. While your Grivel Rambo and steep ice crampons are good for road side steep ice, they are less useful for a day out on The Ben or the Cairngorms (** in my opinion) where the technical climbing is a small part of the day.

** Last winter I seen someone having real difficulty descending No 4 gully in a pair of DMM Terminators.....

In reply to Milesy: my point was that vertical crampon points would do less damage to the wall.. so they would be better buying them for rental purposes in the future. personally I also use horizontal point.

i know someone that can climb grade III ice in trianers, so what.

In reply to jampot:

Jamie

For what it's worth, I was along there today again and think it's great. Obviously it's getting a bit stepped out but I'm sure you guys will catch up.

I'd quite like to see a monthly membership deal as well to save a bit of cash if possible.

Only other thing I'd love to see would be a dedicated dry tooling wall. Central Scotland really needs this!

Great training venue, nice chilled out staff, glad we have this preseason option now...

Cheers

Jon

I have been going twice a week and on some nights it has been really busy with some of us climbing for 4 hours or more solid at a time. The wall is obviously going to get broken down faster than it can be built up at present. That is a lot of action and much more than even honey pot routes in the wild will see.

Most people who are climbing regularly are using their own gear, not the rental gear. Some people I have spoken to have their own gear but still went and rented for the induction before coming back with their own stuff. And the more "newbies" climb then the more likely they will be to get their own gear soon enough. They are actually in the process of looking into getting different axes and crampons from ellis brigham for people to try out directly at the wall and then buy them if they like them.

In reply to franksnb: Lots of comments on both sides which I think overall is always positive - shows everyone has passion about the sport so only improvement and progress can come hopefully on all sides.

Final parting shot from me would be again to re-iterate the team are great, Andy Mallinson taking the time to set up the partner board has been been a really proactive piece on his part, effectively corralling the rest of us to help get folks together and onto the wall and the coaching he offered on site (hopefully getting paid to do it !) has been invaluable to me !

There are a core of great guys trying to make it happen , lets focus on supporting them and making sure the experience only gets even better - I for one am happy to support practically with ice maintenance etc but I want some more coaching off Andy in return

In reply to franksnb: Another positive review here. I've been along three times now and had no problems with staff / prices etc. I went for the induction first time round and it was very informative.

Last time I was there it was slightly stepped out but nothing major. I'd expect that every now and again, just like climbing real routes.

In reply to franksnb: I popped along the wall last week and what I did notice was it was really cold. Perhaps they could get some of those patio heaters for you to stand under. It would save using the hand dryers in the bogs to heat your hands up between routes.

In reply to jampot: Me and a mate enjoyed our first session today, very quiet, we were the only two there for the first couple of hours, with only two other pairs on the ice when we left. The stepped out ice on the routes was no big deal, they required less effort but were no less enjoyable, just meant we could do more of them (my glass is always half full!). Likewise with JohhnyW, only frayed sheath we found was in the corner chimney, and this didn't compromise safety. Only a 45 minute drive away, I'm sure I'll be back on my midweek rest days throughout the winter months when the weather is pish ootside.

In reply to franksnb: Vertical points and horizontal crampons will in fact do a fairly similar amount of damage to the ice. A comparison could be made between good technique and bad with, as you may have guessed, good footwork doing less damage. I have seen all too many people kicking with all their might in an attempt to gain purchase when a gentle and well placed tap would be far more effective.

In reply to Milesy: Folks just to add I was down last night and was great to see how busy it was again. Lots of different levels of skills and still some new inductees so its certainly a healthy community.

While yes there is some wear on the ice its still completely climbable and if anything more interesting and at times challenging while at the same time ok for newbies as there are plenty hooks and steps.

Thanks again to Paul and John for partnering and especially to John for his great coaching - or as he put it "tips to stop you killing me"

In reply to coachmacca:

Aye, there are plenty of hooks and steps all right!
Hooking rebar just adds to that experience.
Still, better than what was on offer before, it will take time to settle down and should becoem an even better venue.
Was also along last night, had the place to ourselves until 7ish, then it got steadily busier but always something to climb/hook on.

In reply to Pids:

Hi All,

Packing/ice making taking place on the wall tonight.....

But still plenty of space to climb whilst we're working !

ANdy

In reply to franksnb: Before I climbed on the wall I nipped in for a look spoke to the staff to ask if I could take my 13 year old daughter in to climb once I was inducted (I am SPA and MLC qualified ) the staff couldn't
have been more helpful .They got me to speak to Jamie (The Boss ) he couldn't have been any nicer took me through for a look at the wall and talked about where we had climbed genuine nice guy .
The wall itself is a bit pocketed and rebar showing but you can be delicate
and work round the pockets ,thought I was back in Rjukan . If you go around looking for perfect ice outside all winter you wont do many routes in a season (although we have been spoiled last few winter's ). Last winter my first route was on 4 November last route was 14 april ,I encountered worse than rebar and pockets . I think you should take it for what it is ,like an indoor wall training and introducing more people to the sport . Frank i think a lot of people on here (of older ilk ) would have first used crampons and axes on railway sleepers and telegraph poles so think yourself lucky you don't smell the creosote (or cheese).
Kenny