UKC

Hello all,

I'll be in the market for a new phone reasonably imminently - mine (Samsung Galaxy S2) is now out of contract, two years old, being argumentative about spontaneously flattening its battery and the back keeps falling off, but I'll keep going with it until all this starts to impede functionality.

I do use the functionality of a smartphone - the phone itself, the camera, five email accounts, GPS/maps/satnav, internet - so I'd like another smartphone, that will last at least two years without falling apart. But I've been pondering...

We hear on the news about mining in corrupt African states for precious metals to go into smartphones, and Chinese workers committing suicide in Apple factories - is there such a thing as a more ethical smartphone or is it 'just the price we pay' for modern technology?

In reply to Tall Clare:


At a rate lower than the societal average - it's just that the factories are ma-hooo-sive. If you compare working in the factories to the subsistence level farming that people are fleeing to the factories from, I don't have a problem with that - it's not different to the process the UK went through with the cotton mills etc., except a lot less awful.

In terms of the rare earth elements etc., I don't think there is much you can do, other than making kit last as long as possible, having it recycled for these to be reclaimed, and buying second hand to reduce demand for raw materials.

In reply to Tall Clare:

Timely, just this morning got the Ethical Consumer newsletter, which has a feature it on this very topic:

http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/ethicalreports/mobilesreport.aspx

In this report we look at the ethical performance of companies producing mobile phones and also the companies running mobile phone and broadband networks in the UK.

Er, not read it though.

In reply to Tall Clare: Note this

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=567177

In reply to Tall Clare:

Have a look at http://www.fairphone.com/

In reply to Tall Clare:

Have you looked at the Fairphone:
http://www.fairphone.com/

I don't suppose it's ethically perfect, but it's a start.

In reply to tony and r0b:

I've always had phones on contract through Orange, so a new phone is 'free' (i.e. I've paid for it over the preceding year or two through the contract fees) - if you buy a phone like the Fairphone you can get cheap deals from mobile operators, right? This Fairphone looks very interesting, and as it runs on Android it's a familiar platform (always good!)

In reply to Tall Clare:

No, as far as I can tell, Fairphone's won't be available on contracts, and with a manufacturing quantity of only 25,000, I doubt the major providers will be interested. You can get SIM-only deals with most providers.

In reply to tony:

Sorry, that's what I meant but failed to say - Mr TC's just said the same as you. I'll do some further investigation...

In reply to Tall Clare:


yep for sim only deals also look at giffgaff (uses o2's network) as well as the regular suppliers

couple of points about the fairphone
it's not 4g (may not be important to you, but they are marketing it as fairly future proof) and also the CPU and RAM are i guess mid range at the moment how will they compare to lower spec phones in 3 years?

will it still be useful in 3 or 4 years time? don't know... have a galaxy s2 myself and after the most recent android update (4.1.2) it got earlier in the year, is still going strong 3 years after i bought it (agree with the battery comment though... BTW a replacement back for it shouldn't be too expensive)

In reply to Tall Clare:

more food for thought:
http://www.monbiot.com/2013/03/11/smart-phones-dumb-companies/

In reply to Tall Clare: Anything that contains rare metals from DRC is unlikely to be ethical.

In reply to Tall Clare:
I'd certainly consider buying the phone upfront and either getting a Sim-only deal or PAYG. That way you aren't caught up in this mindset of regularly replacing your phone.

I'm not convinced Apple are any better or any worse than other manufacturers, but I've had an iPhone for two years without any issues, and can't see myself looking to replace it any time soon

In reply to Tall Clare:

Timely. Saw this article in the Nat Geo Photo edition onSunday. Very interesting reading. Doubtful any electronics on earth are ethical. The ethical thing to do, it would seem, is to stop throwing stuff away and re-cycle what we've got. We're shockingly wasteful, but it's encouraged so we spend money. Profits first as always....
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/10/conflict-minerals/gettleman-text?...

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Definitely! I got my first smartphone as a contract phone (£25p.m. for 2 years), then moved to a (permanent, so won't go up in after an "intro period" and I can cancel at one month's notice at any point) SIM-only contract with the same settings and same network for £10p.m. - so I effectively spent £360 (£15*24) on what was probably a £240 phone... That said, I still use it (4 years in), so have now got my money's worth, and am looking to replace it as everything's failing at once. It'll still be cheaper to buy a new handset outright.

In reply to PeterM: Exactly, I would have assumed the best thing overall was to get a second hand phone.

Cheers,

FT.

In reply to Tall Clare:

The most ethical thing to do is to buy the most technically advanced smartphone available in order to encourage maximum investment in new technologies and the fastest possible rate of technical progress.

The faster smartphones improve the quicker every other application which makes use of silicon chips and software will improve because smartphones and the network infrastructure that serves them are the financial driver for the whole electronics industry and the platform for new software applications.

Keeping up the rate of progress means more advanced healthcare, safer cars, more power efficient electronics and faster progress to replace physical items with electronic counterparts. The energy and resources in the smartphone itself are trivial compared with the energy and resources consumed in the services that can be replaced by using the smartphone. Think about all the paper and transport involved in producing books which are now downloaded electronically and the jet fuel that would have been needed to take people to a physical meeting that can now take place via Skype and the power that has been saved by the development of LED lighting.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

I can see a certain logic to that argument, but to reduce it to a personal level, what if you're someone who tends to read secondhand paper books and who works from home 90% of the time?

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Obviously....consume more.. that'll save the planet and make it more equitable and ethical. Can't see how that could possibly bother the poor in places like the Congo who I'm sure are just desperate for a faster tablet, safer car and better medical imaging, and a new faster laptop for Skypeing the family, oh and the demand for LED bulbs in their shacks and tents has skyrocketed.... Jeez, talk about first world ethics and problems....

I think Tom was being both somewhat facetious and also probably correct. When there has been moral outrage against sweatshops and they have been closed, the workers have gone from crap jobs to even crapper jobs. The real problem is not (just) that poor people in foreign countries have to work for peanuts making fancy stuff for us rich people, its that so much inequality exists that those are the best options available to them. Taking away those options doesn't help; creating new ones (Fairtrade etc) does.

I convinced myself the other day that closed borders, to prevent economic migration, can be worse than slavery. When people kept slaves it was a horrendous violation of human rights - but slave owners were obligated to at least care for their slaves. Now we just close up our walls and still effectively force people to do work for us but we don't care to take any responsibility for the people who (effectively) work for us.

In reply to PeterM:

Actually LEDs are ideal for off grid lighting in Africa because they are rugged, have long lifespans and are low energy allowing them to run off rechargable batteries topped up by solar panels. And one of the features that is getting demanded in that market is a connector for charging cellphones.

From http://www.i-sis.org.uk/LightingAfrica.php :

"According to Lighting Africa, the African market for off-grid lighting products is projected to grow at 40 to 50 percent annually, with 5-6 million African households owning portable lights (primarily solar) by 2015 [8]. In 2010 alone, the sales of solar portable lanterns that have passed Lighting Africa’s quality tests grew by 70 percent in Africa, resulting in more than 672 000 people with cleaner, safer, reliable lighting and improved energy access.

....

The new-generation lamps offer features that consumers are demanding, such as cell phone chargers. The prices of light-emitting diodes (LEDs), solar components, and batteries have also fallen sharply over the five past years. As a result, off-grid products are more affordable for low-income households."

In reply to Tall Clare: The talked about Fairphone on recent episode of "Click" on the World Service. http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/worldservice/digitalp/digitalp_20131022... It wasn't super-interesting but OK, I just find Gareth and Bill a very calming and steadying presence in my life. When podcasts first started and there so few available, they were one - so I got into the habit of listening back then and never stopped, despite rarely being that interested.

It's like a cup of tea: you are rarely desperate for one, but they fit into life smoothly and are nice enough.

In reply to Tall Clare:

I'd still say the most ethical thing if you want a new phone is to buy the one you want most. Buying the best phone encourages the industry to continually improve their products and keeps the pace of innovation high which will benefit everyone.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

I'll be hanging onto mine for a while yet - I don't quite get the impulse to queue for the latest phone and chuck the last one aside.

In reply to Tall Clare:
As others have said, there isn't really a mainstream ethical smartphone available at the moment - all the main manufacturers have blood-soaked hands, and the biyearly contract cycle encourages you to replace your phone before strictly necessary.

Buying a phone SIM free and then taking a SIM only contract is often the best bet.

Another factor to consider is that, with Android phones, you get what you pay for. Cheaper handsets tend to be frustratingly slow and have serious performance issues. The S2 was a flagship when it came out, so you'll have to go for something like the S3 or Xperia Z (or better) to get something with similar performance.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh: Aiming to have things more ethically produced is important too, as well as helping to speed up progress.

In reply to Tall Clare:

I don't get that impulse either, unless there is something revolutionary in the new model like the first iPhone. My approach is to upgrade every 2 or 3 years depending on when my contract is ready to let me upgrade and there is a real technical improvement in the new model. My old phone then gets handed down to the kids. So a phone will last between 4 and 6 years depending on whether the older kid destroys it before it gets to the younger one.

The thing I wouldn't do is buy an older model or a less attractive model because it had an 'ethical' label. Older models or lower specification models will have a shorter useful lifespan as new software expects better processors and screens than they have available.

There are good technical reasons why smartphones are not modular. Everyone has thought of this and it just doesn't work because when size and shape of critical components change due to improvements you get a box packing problem, the electrical interconnectivity between components is difficult to arrange, the way the technology improves is to get more functionality on a single chip so if you draw static boxes between subcomponents based on what can be done in 2013 you won't be able to take full advantage of the technology capabilities in 2015 and the extra packaging at the module level just increases size, cost and weight.

As for tantalum capacitors, there's not much choice until someone invents a better capacitor and the funding for that innovation will come from people buying phones.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:



Theoretically, couldn't the funding also come from lots more people buying more ethical phones?

Ethically produced is one thing, ethically functioning is another.

I'd like a phone with open sourced hardware and software. But, I mostly have to concede defeat there and use a phone I don't trust.

In reply to needvert:

hardware difficult?

Software, roll with Orbot on TOR

In reply to Choss:

If only it were that easy. There's a lot more to it.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Apart from foregoing a phone altogether that statement is probably quite correct! Your comments about LED light are also spot on <pun intended> I've a mate who is a spark and for the last year the firm he works for have just sent the guys out all over the country just to replace bulbs and tubes for LED lighting. He's just finished off the Nationwide bank and hes starting on a hospital trust contract down sarff now. The saving LED offers over a long term period is apparantly huge.
Back on thread, Clare a new battery and back cover for your S2 costs pocket change from ebay. Consider changing your contract to sim only and buying a second hand phone if you want an upgrade. Although, by buying second hand you are fueling the buying new market in a way. Things to consider are the cost of repair parts, a screen for the S3 for example costs £120 just for the part. An iphone 4s screen costs £25 and can be fitted at home. The 4s is still a great phone and a 'minter' can be had for about £160, whatever you do then perhaps the biggest ethical statement you can make is to NOT sell on your old phone once it is replaced. The S2 is worth £77 on envirophone ATM, attractive yes but it'll most likely be sent overseas for recycling and that may mean sweat shops and poor working conditions. Give it away or smash it with a hammer!

In reply to wilkie14c:

But... but when I sold my last phone (a Nokia) on Envirophone the £75 I got funded the purchase of Eric the cat from the RSPCA!

I do already have a spare battery for my S2, and the back will shortly be sporting some white gaffer tape to solve that particular problem.

Some very interesting thoughts on this thread.