UKC

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/coaching-instructing-and-the-law

Without dissecting the tragic story in question on the link I am hoping someone can enlighten me on how it is possible to assemble a quick draw incorrectly as seems to have happened in this awful case. Images of how it is possible to construct a QD incorrectly might be helpful in avoiding similar incidents.

Replies only to point above please, not a dissection of the case in point.

In reply to Johnny_Grunwald:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/deadly-quickdraws-open-sling-rubber-band-accident

In reply to elsewhere: That's not it and according to the more careful reporting of the accident, had nothing to with what happened to the poor kid.

The investigation reportedly showed that a rubber keeper band was used incorrectly, as shown in the picture http://www.dpmclimbing.com/sites/default/files/uploads/images/6350896188554...

In reply to Johnny_Grunwald:

As to how it happened, I think there's been a suggestion that they were assembled by someone who was with the group, but wasn't themselves a climber - and so presumably had no real idea of what they should look like, or how they were used?

In reply to Carolyn:

This is the most likely way that something so tragic could happen. a less likely way this could happen is through negligence of a competent person.

In reply to Johnny_Grunwald:
Use a SIMPLE, single sling, quickdraw. Put a krab at either end ensuring one end is dedicated to clipping bolts and the other end is dedicated to accepting the rope. End of.


If you want to get complex with longer slings, multi-draws, extendable quickdraws any other geeky terms you can think of really, really, work out why you want to get complex.

If you just want to clip bolts then just use a straightforward 'draw.

That avoids some of the issues of 'how do I assemble a 'draw'.

In reply to Johnny_Grunwald:




Did folks miss that request?

It WAS quite clear?

In reply to andyathome:

It's not really possible to answer the question 'how did this happen?' without referring back to the case the question is centered on.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=68190

Details and video on the link

It was discussed in length at the time.

In reply to andyathome:


I think the issue in this case may centre on how the shop 'assembled' the draw which would unfortunately invalidate your first statement. Most quick draws these days have those little rubber stoppers which (as shown in the videos above) can misbehave under certain situations.

If only life were black and white.

In reply to Run_Ross_Run: Again, the problem shown on that video has nothing to do with fatal accident in Orpierre.

In reply to Johnny_Grunwald:

The video link supplied explains it perfectly, so thanks for that. In keeping with one of the other comments, I have always used simple quick draws, sling and x2 crabs so I was genuinely interested in how something so simple could fail. I will carry on keeping things simple I think.

In reply to Johnny_Grunwald:


As Toby has explained, the video demonstrates one way in which failure could happen.

However, as far as I understand, it's not believed to be what happened in the sad incident you refer to - where it seems the quickdraws were simply assembled incorrectly, probably by someone who couldn't reasonably have been expected to know what was correct, and what was incorrect.

I realise that involves some degree of comment on the incident, but I can't see how it's possible to answer your question without.

In reply to Johnny_Grunwald:


Arrggghhh! Did you actually read any of the the other posts on the thread?

<knocks head against brick wall>

In reply to TobyA:

TBF Toby, this is partly down to the BMC and UKC promoting this video at the time, the BMC Office came onto one of the threads and said they would probably update things but they haven't.

I remember them being very lackadaisical about it at the time, saying it didn't really matter if it was the wrong info because it was still good info!

In reply to winhill:

Well, unless we're overlooking something, the article:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/deadly-quickdraws-open-sling-rubber-band-accident

Has been updated? It's not an article on that specific case. But let us know if that's not clear from reading it.

In reply to TobyA:

I have not stated anywhere that it did.
The op asked a question 'how was is possible'. I posted a link answering that question.

Suggest you bang that head of urs a bit less from now on.

In reply to Run_Ross_Run:

From the OP

"how it is possible to assemble a quick draw incorrectly as seems to have happened in this awful case"

From the UKC link:

"please note this video was made around 4 years ago, and not in response to this accident"

In reply to Team BMC:

It isn't that clear and if not read carefully implies that it's the rubber band that caused the accident rather than some freak orientation of the slings etc, does this mean that using duct or similar tape is OK or not using anything, other than common sense or lack thereof, will prevent cross loading or unclipping?

Tito's case, AFAIA is completely different as it was wrongly assembled and then the wrongly assembled quick-draws where placed onto the route by a non or inexperienced climber without being checked, that caused the accident? However this is linked to the original BMC article and video above and could easily cause confusion and imply this was the mode of failure in Tito's case!

Maybe keep it completely separate with a clear explaination and stick a photo such as http://www.dpmclimbing.com/sites/default/files/uploads/images/6350896188554... but add incorrectly assembled quick-draw with danger of death warnings onto the photo so it's not pulled from the internet for use on 'how to assemble a quickdraw' in yet another court case!!!!

In reply to winhill
Thanks. I couldnt be ar#ed to copy and paste the text at the time.

In reply to Ron Walker:

We were updating our quickdraw article that you linked at the time of the Tito accident, and I decided to cover the two main hazards together, the idea being people would rather read one web article than two. Both hazards are covered with photos and text in the article. I don't really understand where the confusion comes in, but then I wrote the article!

In reply to Dan Middleton, BMC: I think people just don't read very carefully, as some of the post above in this thread strongly suggest! It seems the Johnny the OP here has taken away completely the wrong information on what happened in this sad case for instance.

In reply to Johnny_Grunwald:

I think a repeat of this Tragic Accident could be avoided by doing away with the external rubber Ring Keepers, and only buying Draws with attached internal Keepers a la DMM Draws (Other brands are available)

In reply to Dan Middleton, BMC:

Dan, the only photo is the fifth in a series, many people won't get that far, I didn't til I saw the reply from BMC Office.

Also it's most likely the wrong image, grimper corrected to the one Toby A linked to above, the rubber is on the wrong end, it should be on the bentgate, not the straight (the original photo was based om info supplied by the police, I guess it's possible that was how the draws were put together but not likely, I don't know if grimper checked before updating their image to the second one)

I think the UKC article with the same vid has been updated to try to convey the sense that it doesn't apply to Tito's case but this thread seems to show that people are still confused.

BTW Here's the original post explaining that you were on holiday at the time:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=556851&v=1#x7421874

In reply to TobyA:

Toby, I have taken away the information which I required, but thanks for worrying. It may not have been precisely pertinent to the case in point but it answered my question which may have been poorly framed.

In reply to Johnny_Grunwald:

But you said the video explained it, when it was the photo that (almost) explained it.

In reply to Run_Ross_Run:

The video in that link has naff all to do with the accident we are not discussing.

In reply to Johnny_Grunwald:

Well only in the sense that if you asked "what is 4 + 4?" and someone told you 5, that they would have answered your question.

This thread really has disappeared down the rabbit hole!

In reply to andyathome:

Aiy, seem to be going round in circles now.

hey ho.