/ Smiling Buttress First Ascent

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ben8522 on 03 Nov 2013
Tyler Landman has made the first ascent of Smiling Buttress at Curbar
Source @moonclimbing
Offwidth - on 03 Nov 2013
In reply to ben8522: what a star!
Michael Hood - on 03 Nov 2013
In reply to ben8522: Somebody enlighten me where this is at Curbar, the name's not familiar to me.
Aly - on 03 Nov 2013
In reply to Michael Hood: The short wall facing End of the Affair. It features as one of the 'projects' in Hard Grit
ericinbristol - on 03 Nov 2013
In reply to ben8522:

Wow! Looking forward to hearing more.
The Pylon King on 03 Nov 2013
In reply to ben8522:

Wasnt it supposed to have an english 7c move on it?
Dispater on 03 Nov 2013
In reply to ben8522:

Wow. How long ago was Hard Grit filmed? Mid-nineties?
JimboWizbo - on 03 Nov 2013
In reply to Dispater: 97 I think?
Offwidth - on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to The Pylon King:

7c was pure hyperbole UK tech grades are very wide at the top. However as a microroute in an area popular with wads it has had a lot of suitors so this is a very significant ascent, even if it would be a boulder problem in the US.
The Pylon King on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to Offwidth:

Yeah hyperbole is good. Hyperbollox? :)
Double Knee Bar - on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to ben8522: Big big news, well done Mr Landman.
pasbury on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to Double Knee Bar:

Sick hard according to Mr Moon!
Franco Cookson on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to pasbury:
> (In reply to Double Knee Bar)
>
> Sick hard

is that some sort of STI?


Would be interesting to hear more info on this. Obviously heard of the old project, but just quite how trad is it and how hard is it?


Good job anyway,
Offwidth - on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson:

It defeated many of the best until now so 'sick hard' is a pretty good description. My view on grades at the very top is that we won't know for a few decades as so few people operate at this level that any current consensus might be very morpho (the grade given might even be too low a grade for a nominal average).
Franco Cookson on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to Offwidth:

I'm not so sure. I reckon if people keep an eye on what people are better at now than they used to be and what people will improve at, then grading shouldn't be too far out. Boulder strength, endurance... these things are all around in much bigger masses and need to be given less weight when grading.

But that's off topic anyway...
Bulls Crack - on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Franco Cookson)
>
> It defeated many of the best until now so 'sick hard' is a pretty good description. My view on grades at the very top is that we won't know for a few decades as so few people operate at this level that any current consensus might be very morpho (the grade given might even be too low a grade for a nominal average).

Think we can safely say its going to be 7b or more though
Ramblin dave - on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to ben8522:
But what's he ever done on...

Oh, okay, fair enough.
Offwidth - on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson:

You might think that wouldn't you but then look how many top-end or groundbreaking routes in history got regraded (up and down). I'd say its very much on topic if it gets given 7a.
Franco Cookson on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to Offwidth: Grades above English 6b need slimming. The problem is people are afraid of being seen as not modest. I think anything in the high font 8s needs to be english 7c or the whole tech grade system is just ridiculous. That's not to say that there's anything wrong with the adjectival grades at all. Perhaps font 8a-8b should be english 7b? font 7b- font 7c+ english 7a?
Coel Hellier - on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson:

> Grades above English 6b need slimming. The problem is people are afraid of being seen as not modest.

You are entirely right Franco, and are perhaps the perfect person to knock sense into people on this issue! Grade things properly (that is, with appropriately high numbers) and don't listen to detractors.
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slinky wizard - on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to ben8522:top effort an outstanding ascent of a last great problem
Double Knee Bar - on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson:
> (In reply to pasbury)
> [...]
>
> is that some sort of STI?
>
I had a go, thought it was stick hard.
Adam Long - on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson:
> (In reply to pasbury)
> [...]
>
> but just quite how trad is it and how hard is it?

Not trad at all - a headpointed highball above a load of mats. Dropping the last move could be messy, but otherwise pretty safe.

How hard - no idea. Hard section is just a couple of moves, so yeah either UK 7c or at least 'proper' 7b!
mark20 - on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to Adam Long:
Looking forward to seeing the photos...
JIMBO on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson: the trouble is the tech grade is meant to describe the hardest single move... much of the font grade is describing a longer sequence of many hard moves... so a font 8a might be lots of english 6b or one 7b
Franco Cookson on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to JIMBO: I'm not sure that's always true. In the Moors at least font grades are applied to single moves. So a route can have a font 7b, followed by a font 7c+, followed by a font 7c, which together would be well into the font 8s.
galpinos - on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson:

Boulder problems in the NYMs have more than one grade? Madness.

Font grade describe the difficulty of the problem, not an individual move. A one-move 7B will have a singular harder move than those that exist in a 6 move 7B for example.
Franco Cookson on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to galpinos: nah, im talking about crux sequences of routes.
galpinos - on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson:
> (In reply to galpinos) nah, im talking about crux sequences of routes.

Sequence - which could be multiple moves?
Franco Cookson on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to galpinos: yeh, exactly.
JIMBO on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson: so we're agreed then that british tech grades describe single moves but font grades describe sequences :-)
Franco Cookson on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to JIMBO: My point was that font grades can be used to describe either. Similarly, due to difficulties in defining 'a move', a tech grade may be have some variation in it's length move.
JIMBO on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson:
> ... defining 'a move'

One hold to another?
Franco Cookson on 04 Nov 2013
JIMBO on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson: nice... still one hold to another. The bits in between are clearly not holds since they cannot be 'held'
john arran - on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to JIMBO:

Never quite as simple as one move to another as the same route may have several viable crux sequences and maybe use different holds.

It always struck me as one of the more obvious difficulties of the tech grade in that it relied on people agreeing what constituted a move.

Indeed some routes I've done have alternative sequences that are individually easier but take longer meaning that some people prefer to do a harder single move instead of a sequence of slightly easier ones to the same end. What would be the tech grade then: the harder single move that most do or the easier moves that only stamina weaklings like me would do to avoid having to pull hard? ;-)

There's no real answer to this because I think it's fundamentally impossible to identify a single agreed hardest necessary move on many routes. Somehow the tech grade is still useful in spite of this - I suppose because most routes will be climbed roughly the same way by most people - but I still think that a Font grade is conceptually more useful.
JIMBO on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to john arran: quite agree... the old tech grade is not a good descriptor when things get hard. However Franco (at least how I read it) was suggesting that font grades could be converted to tech brit grades, which I don't feel it can without looking at the moves individually.
Franco Cookson on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to JIMBO: The great thing about font grades, is that they're so versatile. You can divide a route up into any size you want with font grades. It can me single leg movements, or the entire route - 30 font grades, or a single one. Obviously the fewer divisions you have, the harder the font grades will be. If you divide the route up into individual moves, then of course a conversion with tech grades is possible.
JIMBO on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson:
I completely agree with what you are saying except with the original statement...

> Perhaps font 8a-8b should be english 7b? font 7b- font 7c+ english 7a?

... unless the caveat of a 'single move' is applied... whatever that might be ;-)
Offwidth - on 04 Nov 2013
In reply to JIMBO: .... and bearing in mind they are down to possibly 5a now on the other channel given how easy he made it look ;-)
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pasbury on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to Offwidth:

I guess you have to make moves like that look easy or you're off.
CurlyStevo - on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to pasbury:
is there a video of the climbing?
tom84 - on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson:

nice one ukc, lets have a grade discussion as usual.

well done ty, awesome
galpinos - on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:
> (In reply to pasbury)
> is there a video of the climbing?

Ben Pritchard filmed it. No idea how it'd get released but at least it will be quality, whatever format it comes out in!
Jamie B - on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to galpinos:

> Ben Pritchard filmed it. No idea how it'd get released but at least it will be quality, whatever format it comes out in!

In the meantime, has anyone got a picture that shows the line?

galpinos - on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

No line marked but the butress is here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/62390144@N02/8384700998/

ericinbristol - on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to galpinos:

Really pleased to hear that. Can't wait.
Franco Cookson on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to tom84: seems quite appropriate. It'll probably end up being a pretty benchmark climb in the upper tech grades. How many english 7bs exist at all?
Offwidth - on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson: Most of the very hardest boulder problems?
tom84 - on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to Franco Cookson:

none. theres no english grading system.
Gordon Stainforth - on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to tom84:

Are you splitting hairs re. the British technical grading system? Or British bouldering grading system? for example. And what's the Southern Sandstone grading system if it's not English (English, because it doesn't quite align with rest of UK technical grades)?
tom84 - on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

no, just presenting facts and being awkward gordon. but more importantly in my first post stating general discontent with yet another great piece of climbing being discussed by letters and number.
The Pylon King on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to tom84:

It probably wouldn't be great if the letters and numbers were not impressive.
Jamie B - on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to galpinos:
> (In reply to Jamie B)
>
> No line marked but the butress is here:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/62390144@N02/8384700998/

Which part of that picture?
alooker - on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to Jamie B: centre of the photo, there's a smile/nike tick with some chalk on, I think it goes from there, to the break then to the top.
Spike - on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

I don't know for sure but I'd guess the buttress with the smile on it? kind of third major buttress from the left.

S
Wiley Coyote - on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to ben8522:

I've never heard of him. What's he ever done on.... Oh hang on.
Michael Gordon - on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

One of the comments near the bottom explains where it is. Good line!
Ramblin dave - on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to Wiley Coyote:
I already did that one...
Bulls Crack - on 05 Nov 2013
In reply to tom84:
> (In reply to Franco Cookson)
>
> nice one ukc, lets have a grade discussion as usual.

It would be odd if people didn't wonder.
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Offwidth - on 06 Nov 2013
In reply to tom84:

These grades came from southern sandstone who borrowed the idea from font. Add mystique and grade creep et voila: 'UK' tech. Maybe we should have stuck with the original.

In that linked photo Smiling Buttress is the one just left of centre. On the left side wall is a faint white crescent which is the smile feature.

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