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Back in May I posted in order to find out if climbers would like to see Highway One fully bolted. It would appear from that discussion that the majority would like to see it remain as it is; i.e. a mostly-bolted route which needs wires for start and finish. Fair enough.
However, there was almost unanimous support for installing a proper twin bolt abseil station, to obviate the need for a scramble up vegetated slopes, and an even more vegetated exit on to the path.
Would anyone object to this?
However, there was almost unanimous support for installing a proper twin bolt abseil station, to obviate the need for a scramble up vegetated slopes, and an even more vegetated exit on to the path.
Would anyone object to this?
In reply to bpmclimb: Was there really? Well take this as a no because it's utterly unnecessary.
If you can place a 4 wire then you can find a safe way off, for Goodness' sake.
If you can place a 4 wire then you can find a safe way off, for Goodness' sake.
In reply to bpmclimb:
Theres an area meet next Thursday in Bristol i believe.
Bring it up there if you think it needs discussing, would be my Advice
Theres an area meet next Thursday in Bristol i believe.
Bring it up there if you think it needs discussing, would be my Advice
In reply to bpmclimb: I would think that people climbing E4 would be able to deal with vegetated top outs?
In reply to bpmclimb:
Unnecessary convenience bolting. I would object, albeit mildly. Haven't you got better things to do?
jcm
Unnecessary convenience bolting. I would object, albeit mildly. Haven't you got better things to do?
jcm
In reply to bpmclimb:
Personally, its way above my bumbly Flailings, but i feel a disturbance in the Force over Spreading Lower offs in the region. Dont think it would be popular
Personally, its way above my bumbly Flailings, but i feel a disturbance in the Force over Spreading Lower offs in the region. Dont think it would be popular
In reply to bpmclimb:
Given that the crag already has a mixture of bolt lower offs for other 'pure' trad lines and given that Highway One isn't exactly what you would call a 'pure' trad line then two solid bolts to belay off at the top would be an intelligent addition.
It's a manky quarry FFS!
Given that the crag already has a mixture of bolt lower offs for other 'pure' trad lines and given that Highway One isn't exactly what you would call a 'pure' trad line then two solid bolts to belay off at the top would be an intelligent addition.
It's a manky quarry FFS!
In reply to all:
Hmm… so far, 4 against, 1 for, 1 neutral. I'm surprised, frankly, since there's already a lower-off of sorts at the top out to the climb (which itself is almost completely bolted) - just doesn't happen to be a safe one. So it would be more of a like-for-like replacement than a new installation.
While we're on the subject, there's some good harder sport climbs at PQ which are rather neglected (in fact they're almost never done). I'm sure part of the deterrent is the uncertain situation with finishing and lowering off (to put it mildly). One or two strategically placed abseil stations would help to save the climbs in question from complete neglect and obscurity.
BTW my interest here is that I am putting together a chapter on PQ for the next guidebook (along with several other crags in the area), and am just trying to get all these sorts of issues addressed now, as well as reclimbing/ressurecting routes, assessing grades, clearing areas under climbs, pruning brambles, taking out litter, etc, etc. All of which voluntary. I'm not looking for a medal or anything - I only mention it in the hope of forestalling any further snide remarks about finding something better to do with my time.
At the end of the day, nobody need worry, I'm not going to wade in and place bolts against the general consensus.
Hmm… so far, 4 against, 1 for, 1 neutral. I'm surprised, frankly, since there's already a lower-off of sorts at the top out to the climb (which itself is almost completely bolted) - just doesn't happen to be a safe one. So it would be more of a like-for-like replacement than a new installation.
While we're on the subject, there's some good harder sport climbs at PQ which are rather neglected (in fact they're almost never done). I'm sure part of the deterrent is the uncertain situation with finishing and lowering off (to put it mildly). One or two strategically placed abseil stations would help to save the climbs in question from complete neglect and obscurity.
BTW my interest here is that I am putting together a chapter on PQ for the next guidebook (along with several other crags in the area), and am just trying to get all these sorts of issues addressed now, as well as reclimbing/ressurecting routes, assessing grades, clearing areas under climbs, pruning brambles, taking out litter, etc, etc. All of which voluntary. I'm not looking for a medal or anything - I only mention it in the hope of forestalling any further snide remarks about finding something better to do with my time.
At the end of the day, nobody need worry, I'm not going to wade in and place bolts against the general consensus.
In reply to The Pylon King:
Yep, that's what I would have thought. Is it possible that some of the above objections are based more on general principles than on a clear and accurate memory of the climb in question (especially the nature of the ground above the climb)?
> (In reply to bpmclimb)
>
> Given that the crag already has a mixture of bolt lower offs for other 'pure' trad lines and given that Highway One isn't exactly what you would call a 'pure' trad line then two solid bolts to belay off at the top would be an intelligent addition.
>
>
> Given that the crag already has a mixture of bolt lower offs for other 'pure' trad lines and given that Highway One isn't exactly what you would call a 'pure' trad line then two solid bolts to belay off at the top would be an intelligent addition.
>
Yep, that's what I would have thought. Is it possible that some of the above objections are based more on general principles than on a clear and accurate memory of the climb in question (especially the nature of the ground above the climb)?
In reply to bpmclimb: I climbed there a few weeks back and thought the bolted lower-offs on the other slab were great. I can't see any reason why Highway One shouldn't have one given the overall context -- it being an almost-a-sport-route in a manky quarry with a history of bolting.
In reply to bpmclimb:
Or it could just be theyre shite.
7;^)
> (In reply to all)
>
> While we're on the subject, there's some good harder sport climbs at PQ which are rather neglected (in fact they're almost never done). I'm sure part of the deterrent is the uncertain situation with finishing and lowering off (to put it mildly).
>
> While we're on the subject, there's some good harder sport climbs at PQ which are rather neglected (in fact they're almost never done). I'm sure part of the deterrent is the uncertain situation with finishing and lowering off (to put it mildly).
Or it could just be theyre shite.
7;^)
In reply to bpmclimb:
1. Trad. route with a couple of bolts
2. Mostly bolted with a few gear placements
3. Mostly bolted with a few gear placements + a lower-off
4. ?
You can see where this is going can't you?
I did it at stage one, enjoyed it in this state, and can't see why further bolting is necessary or desirable.
1. Trad. route with a couple of bolts
2. Mostly bolted with a few gear placements
3. Mostly bolted with a few gear placements + a lower-off
4. ?
You can see where this is going can't you?
I did it at stage one, enjoyed it in this state, and can't see why further bolting is necessary or desirable.
In reply to bpmclimb: This thrtead and the way the route has been treated shows why the "thin end of the wedge" argument is fully justified.
In reply to flaneur:
The climb is already at stage 3 on your list (save that the lower-off is a single and rather old bolt), and has been for some time. I'm not quite sure if you're proposing leaving it exactly as it currently is, or debolting it to get back to stage 1.
FWIW my vote would be to put a safer twin-bolt station where the old bolt is. This would scarcely count as "further bolting", and wouldn't change the position of the climb on your list at all - being, as I said above, a simple "like-for-like" replacement of an abseil station.
> (In reply to bpmclimb)
>
> 1. Trad. route with a couple of bolts
> 2. Mostly bolted with a few gear placements
> 3. Mostly bolted with a few gear placements + a lower-off
> 4. ?
>
> You can see where this is going can't you?
>
> I did it at stage one, enjoyed it in this state, and can't see why further bolting is necessary or desirable.
>
> 1. Trad. route with a couple of bolts
> 2. Mostly bolted with a few gear placements
> 3. Mostly bolted with a few gear placements + a lower-off
> 4. ?
>
> You can see where this is going can't you?
>
> I did it at stage one, enjoyed it in this state, and can't see why further bolting is necessary or desirable.
The climb is already at stage 3 on your list (save that the lower-off is a single and rather old bolt), and has been for some time. I'm not quite sure if you're proposing leaving it exactly as it currently is, or debolting it to get back to stage 1.
FWIW my vote would be to put a safer twin-bolt station where the old bolt is. This would scarcely count as "further bolting", and wouldn't change the position of the climb on your list at all - being, as I said above, a simple "like-for-like" replacement of an abseil station.
In reply to Choss:
Yes, that's possible. They look quite good though - I'm hoping to get stuck in to some of them as redpoint projects. If only more of them had lower-offs!
I'm primarily into trad myself, but I do think that if we're going to have sport routes then they should be just that - complete with lower-offs. I don't see any virtue in having a fully bolted climb with an unpleasant and dangerous scramble at the top. That's not purity of ethics in any sense - it's just plain ridiculous, IMO.
> (In reply to bpmclimb)
> [...]
>
> Or it could just be theyre shite.
>
> 7;^)
> [...]
>
> Or it could just be theyre shite.
>
> 7;^)
Yes, that's possible. They look quite good though - I'm hoping to get stuck in to some of them as redpoint projects. If only more of them had lower-offs!
I'm primarily into trad myself, but I do think that if we're going to have sport routes then they should be just that - complete with lower-offs. I don't see any virtue in having a fully bolted climb with an unpleasant and dangerous scramble at the top. That's not purity of ethics in any sense - it's just plain ridiculous, IMO.
In reply to Choss:
Thanks, yes - I was already going to come to that meeting, and will raise the matter as you suggest.
> (In reply to bpmclimb)
>
> Why not come and Put it to area meet Next Thursday, get local consensus?
>
> Why not come and Put it to area meet Next Thursday, get local consensus?
Thanks, yes - I was already going to come to that meeting, and will raise the matter as you suggest.
In reply to bpmclimb:
like i said earlier that wall is above my Meagre Scramblings, but if local consensus is to give it a facelift, ill be happy to come help, hold ropes, etc.
like i said earlier that wall is above my Meagre Scramblings, but if local consensus is to give it a facelift, ill be happy to come help, hold ropes, etc.
In reply to bpmclimb: Bolt it
In reply to bpmclimb:
It's not fully bolted, it's not dangerous and it's not even particularly unpleasant.
Jeez, why does we keep having to have this discussion about every route that has a bolt in it. Can't we just leave things as they are? Surely to God we've got better things to do than installing bolts to save people worrying about a ten foot walk past a couple of bramble bushes?
jcm
> I don't see any virtue in having a fully bolted climb with an unpleasant and dangerous scramble at the top.
It's not fully bolted, it's not dangerous and it's not even particularly unpleasant.
Jeez, why does we keep having to have this discussion about every route that has a bolt in it. Can't we just leave things as they are? Surely to God we've got better things to do than installing bolts to save people worrying about a ten foot walk past a couple of bramble bushes?
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Jcm, I think if you look at the post he quoted in his reply it was about the fully bolted routes not highway one.
Jcm, I think if you look at the post he quoted in his reply it was about the fully bolted routes not highway one.
In reply to mozzer:
I was applauding Choss's offer of help - if help was required. A lot of people will spout stuff on the internet but won't come out and get their hands dirty.
As he said:
'but if local consensus is to give it a facelift, ill be happy to come help, hold ropes, etc.' I think the key words are 'local consensus'.
If you feel I think the spirit of climbing is wholesale bolting, you're wrong.
For what it's worth, I led it years ago. I can't remember much about belays/walk-offs, etc and the quarry probably flourishes vegetation that wasn't there back then. So I'm willing to have no vote on the subject and abide by what the majority decides.
Mick
I was applauding Choss's offer of help - if help was required. A lot of people will spout stuff on the internet but won't come out and get their hands dirty.
As he said:
'but if local consensus is to give it a facelift, ill be happy to come help, hold ropes, etc.' I think the key words are 'local consensus'.
If you feel I think the spirit of climbing is wholesale bolting, you're wrong.
For what it's worth, I led it years ago. I can't remember much about belays/walk-offs, etc and the quarry probably flourishes vegetation that wasn't there back then. So I'm willing to have no vote on the subject and abide by what the majority decides.
Mick
In reply to bpmclimb:
I think the problem is that at the moment there is just one dodgy belay bolt at the top so it should either be taken out or done properly.
I think the people best qualified to decide on this would be Martin Crocker, Gordon Jenkins and the first ascensionist Nipper Harrison, all of whom are easily contactable.
I think the problem is that at the moment there is just one dodgy belay bolt at the top so it should either be taken out or done properly.
I think the people best qualified to decide on this would be Martin Crocker, Gordon Jenkins and the first ascensionist Nipper Harrison, all of whom are easily contactable.
In reply to all:
Update: apparently the installation of a proper lower-off (on Highway One) was considered, but the rock thereabouts proved too unreliable. So it looks like we're stuck with the scramble to belay tree, further scramble to the top, and fight through a thicket to gain the path. It is pretty unpleasant at the moment - I will bring secateurs on my next trip and make it less so (although I can't promise to produce the pleasant stroll that some people seem to remember).
Update: apparently the installation of a proper lower-off (on Highway One) was considered, but the rock thereabouts proved too unreliable. So it looks like we're stuck with the scramble to belay tree, further scramble to the top, and fight through a thicket to gain the path. It is pretty unpleasant at the moment - I will bring secateurs on my next trip and make it less so (although I can't promise to produce the pleasant stroll that some people seem to remember).
In reply to bpmclimb:
Why can't you abseil from the belay tree? Stick a chain on it, job done, or am I missing something?
Chris
Why can't you abseil from the belay tree? Stick a chain on it, job done, or am I missing something?
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Have you done or seen the climb?
> (In reply to bpmclimb)
>
> Why can't you abseil from the belay tree? Stick a chain on it, job done, or am I missing something?
>
> Why can't you abseil from the belay tree? Stick a chain on it, job done, or am I missing something?
Have you done or seen the climb?
In reply to The Pylon King:
>
>
Yes I have done (and seen) the climb.I believe it was E4 6a at the time. If I recall correctly we abseiled off though that may be bull!
Chris
>
>
> Have you done or seen the climb?
Yes I have done (and seen) the climb.I believe it was E4 6a at the time. If I recall correctly we abseiled off though that may be bull!
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
yeah you probably abbed off of the single bolt, thats what most people do.
Its a dodgy bolt though.
> (In reply to The Pylon King)
>
> [...]
>
> Yes I have done (and seen) the climb.I believe it was E4 6a at the time. If I recall correctly we abseiled off though that may be bull!
>
> [...]
>
> Yes I have done (and seen) the climb.I believe it was E4 6a at the time. If I recall correctly we abseiled off though that may be bull!
yeah you probably abbed off of the single bolt, thats what most people do.
Its a dodgy bolt though.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
The tree is small, and isn't ideally placed, being a bit off line and halfway up a (approx 15m) vegetated slope (with some loose rock). As things stand, I would recommend coming back down to belay at the top of the actual climbing, using a long rope to the tree to back up the dodgy bolt, then scramble to the top when both up the route.
> (In reply to bpmclimb)
>
> Why can't you abseil from the belay tree? Stick a chain on it, job done, or am I missing something?
>
>
> Chris
>
> Why can't you abseil from the belay tree? Stick a chain on it, job done, or am I missing something?
>
>
> Chris
The tree is small, and isn't ideally placed, being a bit off line and halfway up a (approx 15m) vegetated slope (with some loose rock). As things stand, I would recommend coming back down to belay at the top of the actual climbing, using a long rope to the tree to back up the dodgy bolt, then scramble to the top when both up the route.
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