UKC

Don't know why this popped in to my head, but if Scotland vote for independence, What happens to the Union Jack? Does the blue get taken out of it?

In reply to Derry: fair question and one we have discussed in our house!

oh and what about Gretna Green too.... will it still provide those short order weddings to us south of the boarder?

will those from north of the boarder be required to apply of a visa to work in the UK as Scotland wont be part of the EU... lots of unanswered questions.

also they get to vote to leave, do we get any say in if they stay or we kick them out?

In reply to Derry:

Since there is no proposal currently to get rid of the Union of the Crowns which this flag comes from, to the best of my knowledge, all of the relevant countries can still use it.

It's the Union of the Parliaments that this is about.

Of course in practice people might choose not to fly it or create a new one.

In reply to Derry:

The Union flag still has the cross of St Patrick in it, much to the annoyance of some in Ireland, so I guess the flag will still have the cross of (St Andrew?)

In reply to blurty:

Would that Cross be something to do with Northern Ireland.......

In reply to Derry:
>> I saw a flag in a garden when I was going north towards the Scottish border, near Carlisle last month. It was the union flag with the saltire removed.

In reply to Little Brew:

Ah yes, good point

In reply to Derry: I think what remains of the UK should have a new flag how about a big hand giving a two fingered salute?

In reply to Derry:

Just get over it folks.


(Wasting my breathe of East Belfast no doubt. They'll want to stArt a war because somebody's stolen THEIR flag.)

In reply to mockerkin:

This?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/13/article-0-0F71B62B00000578-770_63...

In reply to Steve John B:

Yep That is VERY appropriate.... No backbone!

In reply to Padraig:

What if it had 3 German stripes across the front?

In reply to Derry:

Ironic that Scotland puts the blue into the Union Jack but feck all blue into Westminster.

In reply to Saor Alba:

I know a few Bowling clubs in Scotland who will still want to fly the Union Flag (and salute the portrait of the Queen,) even if Scotland is Independent.

They will also be very unhappy if the flag is changed, but as you say there is no need to do so.
All this is pretty trivial to me, but deadly serious to some others.

In reply to Little Brew: No. St Patrick's cross was added c1800 when The Kingdom of Great Britain became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Its place on the flag has nothing to do with Northern Ireland, other than the fact that that fragment of Ireland remains a part of the UK. (I think hardened Loyalists would prefer a St George's cross anyhow)

In reply to Derry:

If Scotland leave the Union i'm hoping for a mile wide exclusion zone between us and them, a la Korea, with watch towers and propaganda being broadcast from from loud speakers every day.

I'd also be hoping for a similar level of economic and social breakdown up there, to continue the Korea analogy... And every now and then their leader (Salmond?) would say something really douchy or there'd be a news report about him discovering Unicorns or something... Oh, wait....

In reply to Derry: Who cares? When we have a flag with Earth on it and no-one starves in the face of massive overproduction of food, I might wave a flag like that. Until then...

In reply to Chambers:

When we have a flag with Earth on it and no-one starves in the face of massive overproduction of food

Out of interest, as you're a restaurant chef, how much food do you throw away?

Replace the blue with green (may be a problem with the Basques) - Get Wales in on the act.

In reply to Fat Bumbly2:

A dragon in the middle?

implications for a lot of other countries too who have the union flag on their national ensign too. Oz, NZ + a load of other pacific islands.

In reply to Derry:

not to mention the underwear of all the edl and bnp supporters.

In reply to Derry:
We folk from the Scottish/English borders will revive our old reiver economy and rip off everyone who dares to cross OUR border! May the Scottish and English reivers ride again!
Those who don't understand, I give you this clue ISBN 0-00-272746-3

In reply to Derry: I got given a hypothetical brief for a redesign for the Union Jack if Scotland get independence. It's only slightly interesting to me as I am not invested in this country even though I reside here. I think it would have to be revolutionised in order to bring a new 'identity' to Britain.

If it were to be evolved as a design it would perhaps include Wales and Northern Island into the visuals, eg. dragon/green, however I think that to revolutionise it, the flag would need a point of difference from the Union Jack and so it would have to look completely different. The Union Jack has lots of negative connotations as well as positive, and I would not be sad to see it go. It is a symbol however, and if a total re-design were to occur it would have to be something people either love or hate.

In reply to emmathefish:

It's an excellent flag and a widely-recognised national brand because it is utterly unmistakeable as British, unlike all those crummy tricolours which are so interchangeable that personally I can never remember which is which. It would be madness to change it.

As for Scotland they already prefer the Saltire anyway and plaster it all over in their desire to put a kilt on everything.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

I do wonder if you think about statements like that last one. You can hardly move in certain places for the Union Flag but you are quite happy to criticise others for the same thing.

Also, flying the Scottish flag in Scotland is hardly a huge surprise but you appear to be quite concerned about it.

In reply to Derry:

The Wessex regionalist party has a green Dragon as its Flag.

Personally, when we Finally win Independence for Wessex, i think our Flag should be a jolly roger.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:


ha ha ha, that's funny! you know i used to travel to london for the day pretty much every week a few years ago and i can honestly, hand on my heart, say i never once saw anyone flying the St George cross from their house...

i mean, they wouldn't, would they?



maybe we'll issue some of you with special "you can come climbing here as long as you take your litter home with you" visas for all the supportive climbers on UKC

In reply to Saor Alba:

I wasn't having a dig (well, not much of one) but on a recent trip to Edinburgh we were struck by the way everything had to be Scottish-ised and not just in the shops selling shortbread, whisky and tartan trews along the Royal Mile. Even the out of town charity shops had to have the word 'Scotland' or 'Scottish' bolted on. The first one I noticed was Shelter, which in England gets by with being just plain Shelter but in Scotland it has to be 'Shelter Scotland' and once you've spotted this little fetish it is the same everywhere. Age UK becomes Age Scotland etc etc. Is there a worry that people will forget what their country's called if they don't read it every 30 seconds? It just seems a bit silly really.
As for the flags, I've never seen anywhere that flies the flag more, with the possible exception of the USA. The only time I see anything like as many Union Flags in England is in tourist traps like Trafalgar Sq and even then its the Union Flag rather than the English one..
Granted you will see a lot of flags of St George in England during the World Cup but, of course it's a long time since Scotland had that excuse isn't it? OK, that last bit WAS a dig!

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

ah good points...

but a lot of the laws are different up here, so many agencies and companies probably have to have different versions to take into account those differences. I assume they also have a different funding source so have to differentiate from their counter parts elsewhere in the UK?

it's funny, I guess we see differences more than "normal". maybe I noticed more red crosses in London because they are unusual up here and vice versa?

oh and here's something that might tickle you...

almost all the "Scottish" shops in Edinburgh are owned by one family... who emigrated here from India

edinburgh certinaly does kitch well enough

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

It doesn't *have* to be Scottish-ised. It's the choice of the company or individual and clearly many are making that choice.

The exact same is true for London with it's Union Flags. Perfectly natural with it being the capital city of the UK.

You make a good point about Shelter and this is mirrored with multiple other organisations. I would point out the "National" Trust, RSPCA, and multiple other organisations which by name you would expect to be UK wide but in reality are concentrating on England or England and Wales.

The worry is that organisations such as the SSPCA were losing a lot of funding and donations as the RSPCA never pointed out that they don't do anything in Scotland. The same is true for others. This is a serious issue. Shelter Scotland does what it says on the tin. Shelter should be called Shelter England.

I don't care about football anyway. You aren't going to win so there is no point in me getting worked up about it.

In reply to Saor Alba:


I think the subtle, though important, difference between London (and it is mainly a London thing) and Scotland is that in London it's manly for the tourists and parting them frm their cash wheras in Scotrland it seems to be mainly for the natives and I find all this rabid nationalism a bit feeble and old hat.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

Didn't you give Edinburgh as an example. I have heard they don't have tourists there!

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

I don't think putting a flag up is rabid nationalism. You will have to ask the people in Edinburgh you met if they are rabid nationalists.

In reply to The New NickB:

Sure. The City Centre/Royal Mile area is prime tourist fleecing territory, the streets are paved with shortbread and the whole place is Brigadooned to within an inch of its life but we were staying with friends well out of the city so saw both faces of the city and it was almost laughably over-Scotished.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

So they place, The Royal Mile (!), is full of rabid nationalists?

In reply to Saor Alba:

Come on. I've seen you argue the independence case often enough to know you are smarter than that.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

lol, is there a ukc version of godwins law when an English man calls independance minded Scots "rabid" and the Scots point on the English presses comments about 1966 world cup win over Germany? Nationalism is a bit feeble and old hat? On yer sel son!

<gaffaw>

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

I'm just talking about your views on flags. I don't think there any connection and you seem to believe there is an issue with this. If people want to put up a flag for their country let them.

In reply to Saor Alba: Oh I've no objection to them putting up the flags. I just feel entitled to have a little chuckle at it.

In reply to Saor Alba:


So you wouldn't say that all the George Crosses we see these days is anything to do with the rise of the BNP and other extreme right parties in England? Nothing to do with nationalism at all?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

So you wouldn't say that all the George Crosses we see these days is anything to do with the rise of the BNP and other extreme right parties in England? Nothing to do with nationalism at all?

I don't personally believe in displaying my Countries Colours.
However, I think you're making a massive assumption in mentioning the 'BNP and other extreme right parties in England' and it's impact on the displaying of flags.
Isn't it possible for someone to be proud of their own Country and still have respect for others?

In reply to MJ:

Not if you're English, apparently.

In reply to MJ:

The St George's Cross isn't the national flag though, that is still the Union Jack. Flying a St George's Cross on a permanent basis, or a Union Jack for that matter, means something particular, wouldn't you say?

Why would anyone be proud of their country rather than many others anyway?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Why would anyone be proud of their country rather than many others anyway?

Does it really matter if someone is proud of their school/village/town/city/county/place of work, etc.?
As long as it doesn't become a source of bitterness, resentment or hatred, then who really cares?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Flying a St George's Cross on a permanent basis, or a Union Jack for that matter, means something particular, wouldn't you say?
But not necessarily anything sinister. On my way into town today a hotel was flying the Union Flag flanked by the Cross of St George and the Yorkshire Rose. So far as I know there no meetings of the BNP, EDL or KKK planned today

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

The St George's Cross isn't the national flag though

I'm sure it's the national flag of England. Isn't it?

Don't go to Norway or the USA then - flags everywhere, especially in the latter who chose "separation".

Union flags are becoming a common sight now, as Nos are making their presence felt. Now that is a political statement, both sides have a valid claim to the saltire.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Interesting isn't it, how flags in England are negatively associated with the BNP / EDl, yet in Scotland proudly with the country.

In reply to stroppygob:

I know.

The absurdity of grown men furiously arguing over a a piece of cloth flown and representing some terrible threat for which they can provide no evidence but are certain exists, is...well...absurd.

In reply to Chambers:

You know what? I actually agree with you .

In reply to MJ:


But what does it mean? People say it but I wonder what the actual sentiment is and where it comes from. I can only see pride in something has done one oneself, I find it difficult to understand what it means to be proud of what other people do, especially countries as no one would deny that they have not only done good things. If Christianity sees pride as a sin it is clearly not as simple as many appear to think when the actually announce that they are proud of something.

In reply to MJ:

Depends what you mean by nation, politically England is not an independent nation, our only legitimate flag is the Union Jack from a political point of view, and has been for three centuries.

In reply to Saor Alba:


And yet over the centuries many grown men have killed and died over these bits of cloth.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


I had a few slightly different thoughts about that when I found this painting of St George on Wikipedia...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Saint_George_-_Carlo_Cri...

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I think you have minority ideas about nationality as you appear to think it is about legitimacy, international recognition and logic rather than allegiance or sentiment based usually on the accident of where we are born.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:


You should visit the Loch Ness Experience at Drumnadrochit, it flies the Union Flag , and refers to the Loch as a Lake, the people on the ticket counter have English accents.

Yep come to Scotland as a tourist, and get the real 'Scottish' welcome.

But I guess you can't see any problem with that?

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

And I too will continue to laugh at football ( and other sports) supporters who at the same time as being 'nationalistic' also support local teams who have a large number of foreign players in them.

It is all money these days, national pride takes poor second place.

In reply to Jim C:

I can't see any problem whatsoever with the staff on the counter having English, Polish or Pakistani accents. Can you?

In reply to Derry:

anyway, on a thread about flags, no-one has posted this

youtube.com/watch?v=UTduy7Qkvk8&

very remiss of me, I do appologise!