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Recently I've been doing at least 3 pretty intense (3-4 hours) of indoor bouldering or lead wall climbing. I always really give it 100% and come back absolutely physically knackered.
Recently my right elbow has been sore to the touch (like really bruised) on the outside and I can feel it when I'm warming up. I've recently become a little obsessed with getting a few problems sorted. I've managed to struggle up a font 6b and also managed to get up an overhanging F6b at K2 in Crawley.
Now I know that it might not seem like much, but I'm quite chuffed.
My question is this.. should I take the occasional week or so off and do absolutely no climbing at all - it just feels like my body could do with a rest (although I feel that if I stop for more than a few days I'll go even further backwards)
Recently my right elbow has been sore to the touch (like really bruised) on the outside and I can feel it when I'm warming up. I've recently become a little obsessed with getting a few problems sorted. I've managed to struggle up a font 6b and also managed to get up an overhanging F6b at K2 in Crawley.
Now I know that it might not seem like much, but I'm quite chuffed.
My question is this.. should I take the occasional week or so off and do absolutely no climbing at all - it just feels like my body could do with a rest (although I feel that if I stop for more than a few days I'll go even further backwards)
In reply to Ciderslider: That's a week
In reply to Ciderslider: I got similar problems with my elbow, and I think the main problem was long, hard sessions like you're doing. I now do less than 3 hours, if it's a hard session, and rather than rest I'll do 'easy' sessions where I work my technique on lots of problems that aren't too demanding. Now I don't have any problems with my elbow (or anywhere). I never rest for more than 2 days, or at least I haven't for the last 3 or 4 months.
In reply to Ciderslider:
In a word, yes.
Sounds like your elbow tendon is suffering a bit from over-training. Having experienced a few Winters of deciding to push hard at the wall to come back stronger only to come back injured, I'm taking it easy this Winter and doing about once a week bouldering or leading mixed up with some yoga and weight training (working on the antagonist muscles too). So far so good - I'm not knackered, I'm bendier, and when I do climb I perform better.
In a word, yes.
Sounds like your elbow tendon is suffering a bit from over-training. Having experienced a few Winters of deciding to push hard at the wall to come back stronger only to come back injured, I'm taking it easy this Winter and doing about once a week bouldering or leading mixed up with some yoga and weight training (working on the antagonist muscles too). So far so good - I'm not knackered, I'm bendier, and when I do climb I perform better.
In reply to Ciderslider: well done! A week off is a good idea sometimes, I find it renews my motivation to climb indoors. Do press ups when you warm up and when you finish, really helped sort some elbow and shoulder niggles I had. I try and do shorter sessions so I only need a day or so to feel fully up to training again, longer sessions on occasion though, can't be helped! Goes without saying that decent sleep and diet are of the most importance.
In reply to alooker:
I'm interested in other opinions, however, my personal view is that push ups are not good exercises if you have elbow issues.
OP - better to rest now than have niggles become chronic later.
I'm interested in other opinions, however, my personal view is that push ups are not good exercises if you have elbow issues.
OP - better to rest now than have niggles become chronic later.
In reply to SARS: also, 3 bouldering sessions a week is a lot. Each to their own but I now do 2x bouldering, 2x weights. This way I'm not focusing on the same part of the body too much in one week.
In reply to SARS: it worked for the elbow issues I had earlier this year, that doesn't mean it's a good ex for other elbow ailments, I agree
In reply to Ciderslider:
Take a rest when feeling physically tired.
You'll perform much better being well rested.
I would recommand alternating days of trying to climb hard routes/boulders with days climbing high volume on easier climbs. Also I wouldn't always climb until feeling physically knackered, just set some goals in advance and see how you are feeling afterwards. Still fit afterwards? Great; you are improving.
Push-ups were a good excercise for my elbow problems, but might depend on each case i guess.
Take a rest when feeling physically tired.
You'll perform much better being well rested.
I would recommand alternating days of trying to climb hard routes/boulders with days climbing high volume on easier climbs. Also I wouldn't always climb until feeling physically knackered, just set some goals in advance and see how you are feeling afterwards. Still fit afterwards? Great; you are improving.
Push-ups were a good excercise for my elbow problems, but might depend on each case i guess.
In reply to Ciderslider:
the best way to plateau is to not rest.
developing your rest is as subtle and hard as developing your climbing and/or training. most never do it, and perform below their best their entire performing lives.
the best way to plateau is to not rest.
developing your rest is as subtle and hard as developing your climbing and/or training. most never do it, and perform below their best their entire performing lives.
In reply to Ciderslider: +1 pushups for elbow issues
In reply to Ciderslider:
Mark, the answers to your questions are often already in the text. (Not being smart-arsed.) Follow your feelings.
Are you going even further backwards? It doesn't sound like it. But, even if you were, injury will put you far further backwards. Conversely, often after a rest, people are stronger.
Obviously the hardest thing about resting is the mentally 'letting go' of climbing. And mentally 'letting go' of climbing is (seemingly paradoxically) part of the discipline of climbing. You have to 'let go' to come back. Would totally echo what Ice Solo said above.
In the meantime, here's a little exercise which may help. Elbows tight by sides, hands bunched in fists, thumbs touching, arms extended. Now bring your arms up slowly in a reverse curl, until your fists are by your chest. When you learn the movement, either do it with (very light) weights or just clench your fists/forearms. Do it slowly (harder). A few sets of 20. I don't even bother with weights and it works a treat. Obviously you can do press-ups too (excellent exercise) but, for me, this one is a little gem for elbows.
And relax. As Whillans said, "It (i.e. your coveted route/s will be there next year. The trick is to make sure you are."
Best wishes,
Mick
> it just feels like my body could do with a rest
Mark, the answers to your questions are often already in the text. (Not being smart-arsed.) Follow your feelings.
> although I feel that if I stop for more than a few days I'll go even further backwards)
Are you going even further backwards? It doesn't sound like it. But, even if you were, injury will put you far further backwards. Conversely, often after a rest, people are stronger.
Obviously the hardest thing about resting is the mentally 'letting go' of climbing. And mentally 'letting go' of climbing is (seemingly paradoxically) part of the discipline of climbing. You have to 'let go' to come back. Would totally echo what Ice Solo said above.
In the meantime, here's a little exercise which may help. Elbows tight by sides, hands bunched in fists, thumbs touching, arms extended. Now bring your arms up slowly in a reverse curl, until your fists are by your chest. When you learn the movement, either do it with (very light) weights or just clench your fists/forearms. Do it slowly (harder). A few sets of 20. I don't even bother with weights and it works a treat. Obviously you can do press-ups too (excellent exercise) but, for me, this one is a little gem for elbows.
And relax. As Whillans said, "It (i.e. your coveted route/s will be there next year. The trick is to make sure you are."
Best wishes,
Mick
In reply to Ciderslider:
I personally think you are headed for disaster you should definitely listen to your body and take a week off (or more) when you need it but I am almost sure that it won't solve your pain (as tendons etc won't heal in a week), that is likely to get worse if you continue climbing the same way.
Of course this is only based on guesstimating but my advise would be the following for what it's worth:
1. Don't obsess over grades and tone back the difficulty a notch. Sounds like you are doing 'too much too soon'. 'struggling up' a problem is not what you want to be doing, at least not as your usual training.
2. Focus a lot on HOW you climb. Getting to the top doesn't mean much (in my book at least) if the technique is not right or you injure yourself. It's much easier to build good technique on easy problems and you're likely to pick up bad habits if you push to the limit all the time.
3. Do lots of strengthening for antagonistic muscles eg pushups etc
4. Do a proper warmup and cool down.
5. Don't hang on for dear life when you slip or made another mistake. Better to abort and try again.
I found when I tried to train more that I couldn't sustain 3 or 4 hard bouldering sessions a week - just too much for my body and not enough time to recover. I can do 2 hard bouldering sessions and 1 lighter session of technique training etc. might be work trying to mid things up more. Another route is periodicity...
Hope this helps
I personally think you are headed for disaster you should definitely listen to your body and take a week off (or more) when you need it but I am almost sure that it won't solve your pain (as tendons etc won't heal in a week), that is likely to get worse if you continue climbing the same way.
Of course this is only based on guesstimating but my advise would be the following for what it's worth:
1. Don't obsess over grades and tone back the difficulty a notch. Sounds like you are doing 'too much too soon'. 'struggling up' a problem is not what you want to be doing, at least not as your usual training.
2. Focus a lot on HOW you climb. Getting to the top doesn't mean much (in my book at least) if the technique is not right or you injure yourself. It's much easier to build good technique on easy problems and you're likely to pick up bad habits if you push to the limit all the time.
3. Do lots of strengthening for antagonistic muscles eg pushups etc
4. Do a proper warmup and cool down.
5. Don't hang on for dear life when you slip or made another mistake. Better to abort and try again.
I found when I tried to train more that I couldn't sustain 3 or 4 hard bouldering sessions a week - just too much for my body and not enough time to recover. I can do 2 hard bouldering sessions and 1 lighter session of technique training etc. might be work trying to mid things up more. Another route is periodicity...
Hope this helps
In reply to Ciderslider:
I'd layoff for a bit and then change the way you climb, very often elbow problems never fully resolve and the injuries have to be carefully monitored for the rest of your climbing career.
I'd layoff for a bit and then change the way you climb, very often elbow problems never fully resolve and the injuries have to be carefully monitored for the rest of your climbing career.
In reply to Ciderslider: Another vote for pressups. I think the pain in your elbow is caused by an imbalance in the strength of the tendons on either side of the elbow, which are antagonistic.
By doing so much climbing training (pulling), you're over training one and under training the other (which is for pushing) so it's good to balance it out by doing push-ups at the start and end of every session.
I used to get really sore elbows every session, as well as back/shoulder problems. Press ups have really helped with this.
By doing so much climbing training (pulling), you're over training one and under training the other (which is for pushing) so it's good to balance it out by doing push-ups at the start and end of every session.
I used to get really sore elbows every session, as well as back/shoulder problems. Press ups have really helped with this.
In reply to Joughton: Although that's for my elbow problems, yours might be completely different!
In reply to Ciderslider: Sounds very much like tennis elbow. Tennis elbow affects the outside of the joint when the pain is on the inside it's usually golfers elbow. Think I've got that the right way round but in either case this might help: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=3614
In reply to Ciderslider:
Longer term you need to work out which bit of your climbing aggravates your elbow.
I've a friend who, by realising that the primary driver of his elbow issues was down climbing during aerobic training laps, managed by altering his training and doing the rehab to emerge from a bad bout of elbow issues healed and also stronger.
Longer term you need to work out which bit of your climbing aggravates your elbow.
I've a friend who, by realising that the primary driver of his elbow issues was down climbing during aerobic training laps, managed by altering his training and doing the rehab to emerge from a bad bout of elbow issues healed and also stronger.
In reply to Ciderslider:
Not sure on the rest/overtraining thing but if you are starting to feel it in your elbows I'd advise you start stretching your forearm muscles EVERY DAY. This might help you to avoid it developing into more serios tendonitis/tendonosis....do not ignore the symptoms
Do a bit of googling on forearm stretches
Not sure on the rest/overtraining thing but if you are starting to feel it in your elbows I'd advise you start stretching your forearm muscles EVERY DAY. This might help you to avoid it developing into more serios tendonitis/tendonosis....do not ignore the symptoms
Do a bit of googling on forearm stretches
In reply to geordiepie:
I find stretches help me a lot, more than antagonistic exercises or aerobic exercise (increased blood flow), but best is combination of all 3.
I find stretches help me a lot, more than antagonistic exercises or aerobic exercise (increased blood flow), but best is combination of all 3.
In reply to Joughton: pressups def help with the imbalance but i benefit from a rest here and there from training at the wall etc..maybe thats because im getting on a bit though..
In reply to cliff shasby:
I find leading sustained overhangs indoors causes most my problems, I can climb outside pretty much as much as I like with a few streches here and there.
I find leading sustained overhangs indoors causes most my problems, I can climb outside pretty much as much as I like with a few streches here and there.
In reply to Ciderslider:
Some thoughts:
Go see a good physio. It's worth the money. They should give you exercises to do. Do them.
Investigate the different icing things that people do. Basically very cold for when you've just injured something, long and not so cold for rehabing. This stuff works well for most people.
Reverse wrist curls might help, in addition to press ups.
Don't give it 100% in your sessions. Give it 90% for much shorter times (at least for bouldering). You'll get less climbing done in a day but probably more in a month or three months.
Spend more time on technique. F6b on a wall, even an overhanging one, can be done with plenty of technique and not much effort on your arms. If you're going all out every session there might be more flail than technique, and hence more chance to injure yourself.
And remember, advice from random strangers on the internet is no substitute for seeing a medical professional.
Some thoughts:
Go see a good physio. It's worth the money. They should give you exercises to do. Do them.
Investigate the different icing things that people do. Basically very cold for when you've just injured something, long and not so cold for rehabing. This stuff works well for most people.
Reverse wrist curls might help, in addition to press ups.
Don't give it 100% in your sessions. Give it 90% for much shorter times (at least for bouldering). You'll get less climbing done in a day but probably more in a month or three months.
Spend more time on technique. F6b on a wall, even an overhanging one, can be done with plenty of technique and not much effort on your arms. If you're going all out every session there might be more flail than technique, and hence more chance to injure yourself.
And remember, advice from random strangers on the internet is no substitute for seeing a medical professional.
In reply to ice.solo:
Care to enlarge on this point?
> developing your rest is as subtle and hard as developing your climbing and/or training. most never do it, and perform below their best their entire performing lives.
Care to enlarge on this point?
In reply to Ciderslider:
Yes, take the rest. According to your profile you're the same age as me. I had a coaching session with Steve Mclure last year and most of the session was to do with developing an appropriate training strategy rather than actual 'climbing' coaching. The key thing he said was make sure you're getting enough rest, particularly at my (he actually said 'our') age. You can't train or perform if your body is broken, which sounds like what you're experiencing. It takes longer to heal at our age than when we were younger, so the trick is not to get injured in the first place. What's happened is you've seen marked improvement through training and you're thinking: 'some is good, so more is better', but that's not always the case. Your body needs time to adapt to the new stresses it's being subjected to, so give it that time; you've got to 'play the long game' here.
Gresham also advocates taking a full week off every couple of months.
> My question is this.. should I take the occasional week or so off and do absolutely no climbing at all.
Yes, take the rest. According to your profile you're the same age as me. I had a coaching session with Steve Mclure last year and most of the session was to do with developing an appropriate training strategy rather than actual 'climbing' coaching. The key thing he said was make sure you're getting enough rest, particularly at my (he actually said 'our') age. You can't train or perform if your body is broken, which sounds like what you're experiencing. It takes longer to heal at our age than when we were younger, so the trick is not to get injured in the first place. What's happened is you've seen marked improvement through training and you're thinking: 'some is good, so more is better', but that's not always the case. Your body needs time to adapt to the new stresses it's being subjected to, so give it that time; you've got to 'play the long game' here.
Gresham also advocates taking a full week off every couple of months.
Sounds like you are training well and putting in some good effort. As others have said, getting stronger is as much about the recovery as training. You could consider:
1. Eating some protein within 30 minutes of finishing your session
2. Making sure you get lots of sleep
3. Make sure you have a rest day between sessions
4. Having a longer cycle of training intensity, e.g. a week each of easy, medium, hard, rest. You should be strongest at the end of your rest week.
I would try some of the thing suggested to help sort out your elbow pain, as if it gets worse it could stop you training.
On the technique side, practicing climbing really smoothly is an excellent exercise, but I still believe in also really trying moves that are hard or just beyond what you feel you can do. I think this leads to faster learning and improvements than always staying well within your ability, as long as you don't injure yourself!
1. Eating some protein within 30 minutes of finishing your session
2. Making sure you get lots of sleep
3. Make sure you have a rest day between sessions
4. Having a longer cycle of training intensity, e.g. a week each of easy, medium, hard, rest. You should be strongest at the end of your rest week.
I would try some of the thing suggested to help sort out your elbow pain, as if it gets worse it could stop you training.
On the technique side, practicing climbing really smoothly is an excellent exercise, but I still believe in also really trying moves that are hard or just beyond what you feel you can do. I think this leads to faster learning and improvements than always staying well within your ability, as long as you don't injure yourself!
In reply to Fraser:
How old are you Fraser...your profile doesn't say =]
Was the coaching with Mclure a game changer?
To OP:
Act on it or it will plague you for the rest of your climbing career.
How old are you Fraser...your profile doesn't say =]
Was the coaching with Mclure a game changer?
To OP:
Act on it or it will plague you for the rest of your climbing career.
In reply to French Erick:
Mine doesn't but the OP's does
The McClure session was very good value and without doubt worth the expense. 'Game changer'? Perhaps not but it was very insightful and extremely helpful in focussing the training to suit my personal targets and time schedule. We discussed objectives,strengths, weaknesses, physical condition, training facilities available to me as well as my work/life balance. Taking all these into account he proposed a detailed, (and I think this bit is key) bespoke training regime.
Sometimes all it takes is someone to tell you what to do, even though you probably have a fairly good idea yourself. The difficult part is sticking to the plan.
> (In reply to Fraser)
> How old are you Fraser...your profile doesn't say =]
> Was the coaching with Mclure a game changer?
> How old are you Fraser...your profile doesn't say =]
> Was the coaching with Mclure a game changer?
Mine doesn't but the OP's does
The McClure session was very good value and without doubt worth the expense. 'Game changer'? Perhaps not but it was very insightful and extremely helpful in focussing the training to suit my personal targets and time schedule. We discussed objectives,strengths, weaknesses, physical condition, training facilities available to me as well as my work/life balance. Taking all these into account he proposed a detailed, (and I think this bit is key) bespoke training regime.
Sometimes all it takes is someone to tell you what to do, even though you probably have a fairly good idea yourself. The difficult part is sticking to the plan.
In reply to Ciderslider:
Although I don't rigidly adhere to this I generally aim to overdo it for three weeks in the sense that I am not fully recovered between sessions for that period and then underdo it for a week.
You might be ragged whilst the body struggles to adapt but stick with it though try to distinguish between injury niggles and training fatigue. Your elbow issue is the former.
I try to take a week off 2 or 3 times a year when feeling generally jaded.
In terms of rest between sessions I find it productive to have a day off before maximal strength sessions (typically weighted deadhangs and very occasionally campus board).
If generally focussing on strength/bouldering I find day on/day off works well. Don't go to absolute failure with strength work even if you feel the need to get your moneys worth.
The above is underpinned by articles and studies on periodisation and what I find works.
Although I don't rigidly adhere to this I generally aim to overdo it for three weeks in the sense that I am not fully recovered between sessions for that period and then underdo it for a week.
You might be ragged whilst the body struggles to adapt but stick with it though try to distinguish between injury niggles and training fatigue. Your elbow issue is the former.
I try to take a week off 2 or 3 times a year when feeling generally jaded.
In terms of rest between sessions I find it productive to have a day off before maximal strength sessions (typically weighted deadhangs and very occasionally campus board).
If generally focussing on strength/bouldering I find day on/day off works well. Don't go to absolute failure with strength work even if you feel the need to get your moneys worth.
The above is underpinned by articles and studies on periodisation and what I find works.
In reply to Ciderslider:
Agree with shark. Also think about this: at what intensity are you training? If you are constantly doing sessions at the limit of what you can (currently) do, what are you actually achieving? You are improving your ability to succeed at your current ability level, but at the cost of frequent hard sessions which trash your body. I did this for about 2 years and it led to a solid plateau and lots of frustrating injuries.
Try to make a distinction between training sessions and performance sessions. One is where your aim is to improve by focusing on something specific - volume or technique or intensity, the other is to put in the good performance and get the route/problem done. I've found this helps avoid getting trashed, and actually leads to better improvements.
Agree with shark. Also think about this: at what intensity are you training? If you are constantly doing sessions at the limit of what you can (currently) do, what are you actually achieving? You are improving your ability to succeed at your current ability level, but at the cost of frequent hard sessions which trash your body. I did this for about 2 years and it led to a solid plateau and lots of frustrating injuries.
Try to make a distinction between training sessions and performance sessions. One is where your aim is to improve by focusing on something specific - volume or technique or intensity, the other is to put in the good performance and get the route/problem done. I've found this helps avoid getting trashed, and actually leads to better improvements.
Huge amounts of good advice above - kudos to UKC!
One thing Dave Mac says in his book is that most people can do more training if they increase the variety too. It sounds like all your sessions are quite similar in style, intensity, and duration - so the lesson your elbow is telling you is: that ain't a good idea.
I think rest weeks are ok a couple of times a year, and theyre unavoidable when you've messed up your training intensity and got injured (like now!). But I think scheduling in one rest week a month or something is the wrong lesson to take away, as I think it'll cost you performance.
I try and have an easier week ever third or fourth week, which is triggered by feeling trashed usually I then try and spend that week climbing routes and boulder problems that are 2-4 grades below my onsight limit, but trying to climb as perfectly as possibly. I also experiment with exercises to keep it interesting: climbing super-static and getting rest positions at every clip, climbing as fast and dynamically as possible (without mistakes), silent feet, straight arms as much as possible, etc. I pick ONE of these exercises for each route (as I have a small brain that can't multiprocess!).
I've had a lot of elbow issues and went through several years thinking I'd never be pain free while training. But it resolves itself if you take a week or two off and do the right antagonist exercises and stretch a bit - I've had a good few years trouble free in spite of climbing harder. For me negative wrist curls and pressups make all the difference, though the latter is more a shoulder thing. For some elbow issues it is good to do "pronators" - see http://www.nicros.com/training/articles/treating-climbers-elbow/ which also has sound general rehab advice.
Good luck!
One thing Dave Mac says in his book is that most people can do more training if they increase the variety too. It sounds like all your sessions are quite similar in style, intensity, and duration - so the lesson your elbow is telling you is: that ain't a good idea.
I think rest weeks are ok a couple of times a year, and theyre unavoidable when you've messed up your training intensity and got injured (like now!). But I think scheduling in one rest week a month or something is the wrong lesson to take away, as I think it'll cost you performance.
I try and have an easier week ever third or fourth week, which is triggered by feeling trashed usually I then try and spend that week climbing routes and boulder problems that are 2-4 grades below my onsight limit, but trying to climb as perfectly as possibly. I also experiment with exercises to keep it interesting: climbing super-static and getting rest positions at every clip, climbing as fast and dynamically as possible (without mistakes), silent feet, straight arms as much as possible, etc. I pick ONE of these exercises for each route (as I have a small brain that can't multiprocess!).
I've had a lot of elbow issues and went through several years thinking I'd never be pain free while training. But it resolves itself if you take a week or two off and do the right antagonist exercises and stretch a bit - I've had a good few years trouble free in spite of climbing harder. For me negative wrist curls and pressups make all the difference, though the latter is more a shoulder thing. For some elbow issues it is good to do "pronators" - see http://www.nicros.com/training/articles/treating-climbers-elbow/ which also has sound general rehab advice.
Good luck!
In reply to Siderunner:
True. Generally if doing this then start with the most intense so this might be Day1 Rest Day2 Power/strength Day3 Power Endurance Day4 Stamina Day 5 Rest
Also expect strength sessions to be short and intense stopping strong, PE to be fatiguing but not with a debilitating pump that locks your forearm for days and stamina to be a long and tiring session. Ideally have an aim for a session that seeks to elicit a certain training response then leave. Doing more than necessary is just that.
> One thing Dave Mac says in his book is that most people can do more training if they increase the variety too. It sounds like all your sessions are quite similar in style, intensity, and duration - so the lesson your elbow is telling you is: that ain't a good idea.
>
>
True. Generally if doing this then start with the most intense so this might be Day1 Rest Day2 Power/strength Day3 Power Endurance Day4 Stamina Day 5 Rest
Also expect strength sessions to be short and intense stopping strong, PE to be fatiguing but not with a debilitating pump that locks your forearm for days and stamina to be a long and tiring session. Ideally have an aim for a session that seeks to elicit a certain training response then leave. Doing more than necessary is just that.
In reply to Ciderslider: Managed almost a week off and it seemed to help - recently also got a project I'd been working for a while
Also have lost a bit of weight (stopped drinking and eating shite)
Jumped on a new roof project and actually got a lot further and was able to hang upside down for longer.
So I won't throw my shoes in the bin just yet
Also have lost a bit of weight (stopped drinking and eating shite)
Jumped on a new roof project and actually got a lot further and was able to hang upside down for longer.
So I won't throw my shoes in the bin just yet
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