UKC

Hey all,
Started climbing earlier this year and am totally hooked! I am looking to buy my first rack of quickdraws and having used both solid and wire gates I am unsure as to which to invest in.
I appreciate the weight saved with wire over solid but is that enough to chose them over solid?
Is it worth having some of both?
All thoughts and advise welcome

In reply to MountainGoat82:

Wiregates are lighter, stronger (really), and don't suffer from gate flutter. Bent gates are (arguably) easier to clip.

If you're climbing trad, wiregates all the way. If you're climbing only sport, then you might consider buying solid gate quickdraws. If you're doing both, then again it's wiregates all the way.For me at least.

In reply to MountainGoat82:

I'm interested to see other answers to this, as I understand wiregates to be generally superior:

* lighter
* don't ice up as easily
* less likely for gate to break when cross loaded

Presumably there's something good about solid gates though, as they're still made. Also I've seen QDs with solid at one end and wire at the other. What's the point of that?

In reply to MountainGoat82:

In the event of a fall AND the back of the carabiner gets is slammed into the rock, the higher mass in the solid gate makes it more likely to 'flick' open for a split second. If the carabiner is loaded at this point then it only has the strength of an open carabiner.

try this. get a solid gate carabiner and without holding the gate bacng the back of it against your hand, you'll hear a click. That's the gate opeing and closing. Then do the same with a wire gate.

In reply to MountainGoat82:

Interesting opening comments and agree with points made. I am sport climbing at the mo and may branch in to more trad next season.

Never really paid much attention to my quickdraws before, this is actually quite interesting.

In reply to humptydumpty: solid gates are easier to make without the notch to keep the wire gate in place, maybe makes them easier to clip into bolts perhaps? Good compromise is something like the helium, it has a shroud to stop it snagging.

Big, easy to grab bent solid gates are nice to clip. Bash the spine of a solid gate against the palm of your hand, then try it with a wire gate, whilst rare it's not unheard of for this whiplash to unclip the rope.

Wire gates all the way for me, light as possible for trad/long routes. You might do well to get larger/burlier carabiner for sport - easier to clip and more resistant to getting mashed up on the bolt end. If not just figure out where you're going to use it most or find a compromise you're happy with.

If you do any winter climbing go with wire gates, as mentioned before solid gates freeze up

In reply to alooker: The thread title says sport climbing.

I seem to remember reading about circumstances in which a wire gate can be slightly more likely to be displaced (maybe even self-unclip?) when clipped in to a bolt hanger. Anyone remember that?

Also, given that sport climbing typically involves more falling and hanging about, then arguably a burlier krab - which might include a solid gate - is preferable to a super-lightweight wiregate, at least for the gear end of the QD.

In reply to Martin W:

Yes, this is a problem when it's a classic bolt + hanger scenario. The wiregare is more prone to stick on the bolt/nut and open. It can then even unclip, but in honestly it will just be more compromised as open gate values are less...

In reply to MountainGoat82:

I use wiregates for trad because they are light

I use solid gates for sport because they are nicer to clip on overhanging routes, don't suffer from gate flutter which as you fall a lot in sport is worth remembering and most importantly the ones I have (petzl spirits) do not have a nose which is damned useful when stripping overhanging routes as the draw can get caught on the hanger.

Having said that, wire gates are more versatile for a beginner rack and the advantages of solids only really make a difference in the 7's.

In reply to simonzxr:

Thank you

I have been climbing for 4-5mths and am currently leading 6a, am a while away from the 7s but am determined and passionate so will get there eventually!

Maybe I will treat myself to a new set of solids after my first 7 lead!!!!

In reply to MountainGoat82:

Solids seem better for sports for all the reasons given. Personally I prefer them as they are easier/faster clip (and I only sports climb in the 6's), trust them more not to get caught up on the bolt/hanger, and just feel more comforting somehow.

I climbed trad (and winter) for years on solid gate QD's - as will have many/most posters on UKC - without any issues. However, I switched to wiregate for trad some years ago now.

I think the real point is that you can get such lightweight wiregate set-ups nowadays that the weight saving is well worthwhile if you have a large trad rack and/or are doing alpine routes for example. Of course, there are some supposed safety advantages too but I think it's the weight saving which has sold it to everyone eventually.

I (and others I know) have a set of sports QD's and a set for trad. I accept that is a costly option but it makes sense.

In reply to Skyfall:

Ditto.

In reply to MountainGoat82: If you're on a seriously overhanging route, or one that travels around much, stripping the route is much easier without the hooked nose that most wiregates have.

It's not just the gate that is different - solid gate krabs are often more robust and have more metal around the area that the bolt sits. Lighter wiregates are prone to getting mashed by bolts - not so much an issue if you're "climbing on bolts", but if you're planning on taking some decent falls, a set of DMM Alpha Sport or similar will be worth the money.

In reply to MountainGoat82:

Wire. The main argument for solid is they can feel marginally easier to clip. It's a luxury not worth having unless the only game you play is hard redpointing.

jk

In reply to MountainGoat82:

I dont think theres much in it safety wise at all.

I favour wire gates simply on weight.

In reply to MountainGoat82:
Go to any sport climbing mecca here in Spain and the vast majority of quickdraws you'll see being used have solid gates. Wiregates are regarded as being harder to clip, harder to unclip (when stripping a route), and just generally inferior. Yes you save you save weight but the dedicated sport climber is going to redpointing with the draws in place anyway, so weight is secondary next to ease-of-clipping.

This said, wiregates do save a reasonable amount of weight and so, if you are ever thinking of climbing trad in the future (and I recommend strongly that you do, one day!), then you may as well get a set of decent wiregates now, which will last you for years doing whatever you want.

In reply to GridNorth: Having 2 sets isn't even a costly option in the long term. It just means my lighter trad draws don't get trashed when I go on a long sport climbing trip. Same logic as having different shoes for different climbing, they just wear out less quickly.

In reply to MountainGoat82:
Most of what you hear is subjective and a very small amount is actually real and verifiable. Rock and ice did an article on this recently and the reasoning behind the choice of solid for sport was that if the draw is twisted around the bolt they are less likely to settle in a position where they could open themselves.

solid gate crabs are not necessarily more robust than wire gates as many companies use the same backbone for both types in the same range.

Wire gates are better for the rope end of a draw as the gate is lighter and therefore doesn't "flutter" because it has less inertia/force when moving. (the opposite to what is stated by one post above). Personally I also prefer clipping the rope into a wire gate crab.

So, your best bet if you are really into your sport climbing is to buy a set of both and put the solid gates on the bolt end and the wire on the rope end. This has another advantage of ensuring that you always clip the same crab to the bolt and don't end up ruining your ropes with burs on your crabs.

In reply to simonzxr:


Conventional wisdom (as noted several times higher up the thread) is that solid gates are more prone to flutter than wire gates.

In reply to MountainGoat82: I have a set of dedicated draws for trad (wiregates) and sport (mostly solid gates). I only climb modest grades, but the ease of clipping a well designed solid gate is noticeable (mine are Petzl Spirits). However the solid gates can be a pain when used with a clipstick, which I find holds a wiregate open much more securely, so my sport rack includes a few wiregates for preclipping high first bolts or crux sections when working a route.

In reply to MountainGoat82: Where are you climbing? My local area has smallish cliffs and hard granite meaning its tough to drill bolts so the sports routes can be slightly run-out; this basically means that six quickdraws is normally enough to get you to the top of the sports routes. If you're not climbing on 25-30 mtr limestone pitches where you need 15+ quickdraws, you could consider getting half a dozen traditional gate quickdraws and then after that buying some lighter wiregate ones - they will be OK for long sports pitches and work perfectly when you start getting into trad and even ice/winter.

There are definite pros and cons to both types, but these can be over drawn - I've sport climbed with lightest wire gate quickdraws available and didn't die vimeo.com/69471594 and I've clipped supposedly dedicate sports quickdraws to ice screws and even warthogs and also survived!

I recently wrote a short review of DMM's current plain gate quickdraws http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.fi/2013/10/dmm-shadow-dmm-alpha-and-dmm-a... Personally I love the Shadows, but the Aeros are great too and really quite competitively priced.

In reply to MountainGoat82: I recently upgraded some of my existing quick draws to create a set for some sport climbing. I asked my local climbing wall instructor about the plus and minuses of wire/solid gates. He made a good point that the krab that goes into a bolt hanger gets slightly damaged on the inside face (especially if you load it with a rest or fall) and if you then use it for the rope it can damage it. He recommended using a different type of krab at each end of the quickdraw so that you always put the same type into bolts. I have now set up my rack with a wire at one end (The rope end as I find them easier to clip) and a solid at the bolt hanger end.

I use wiregates, wild country heliums, for sport/trad/everything. I like them.

I've gotten some solid gates draws for use with removable hangers. When things are bolted normally, I prefer the heliums. Not a fan of those bent solid gates at all.

In reply to MountainGoat82:

There are sport QDs around which are preconfigured with one Solid and one wiregate krab.
Good for the distinction bolt/rope krab, no gate flutter on the rope side and nice clipping on the bolt side.

However, i advise you to invest in krabs with some serious open gate strength. DMM offers some very strong QD sets.
Unless you do not want to double up every critical bolt, be aware that
once in a while krabs in Quickdraws break due to open gate loading in hard falls.
The regular UIAA 6-7kn rating provides very little margin for error in this case.

In reply to MountainGoat82:
For sport, get a set of cheap solid gates. I find them much easier to clip, and the last thing you want to do is trash your expensive lightweight wire gates (which you will want when you start much trad) by falling on to them on bolts.

In reply to MountainGoat82:

also. You might want to consider whether thin or thick special Sport slings between the krabs as well.

In reply to Choss:

For sport, the wider the actual nylon dogbone, the better... easier and nicer to grab when projecting or what ever...

In reply to HeMa:

As OP Is Looking to do both Sport and Trad, i would say get mainly thin slings, and a few thick Sport Draws?

In reply to MountainGoat82:

Thanks so much to everyone that has replied. It seems there are many reasons for and against both solid and wires and it seems to me that the best thing to do would be to make up a set of half and half and keep topping up as I go along!

There were some really interesting points made by you all and I will be here all night if I reply to them all individually but it was really interesting to read them all.

I will definitely make some moves in to trad in the next season and will use the winter to polish my skill, knowledge, experience, strength etc and to collect a reasonable amount of gear

I'll see if I can find that R&I article, could be a good read.

In reply to TobyA:

I am in Nottingham so am climbing in the Peaks at the mo and have just come back from El Chorro. Have three overseas trips for next year (2 El Chorro and 1 Sardinia) and hopefully will get to Wales and Scotland amongst other places next year.

Where are you based?

Thanks for link to blog also, will have a read of that now

In reply to MountainGoat82:


The blog gives that away.

One other consideration is the type of bolts where you climb, if you climb sport a lot. Around me it is virtually all the 'modern' petzl glue-ins. They are quite beefy and rounded. When you fall onto them they don't gouge the bolt end krab and they don't have so much potential to catch wire gates. If you climb where there are still a lot of bent plate hangers (I think they're called), the normally Petzl ones where the hanger is separate from the bolt and held on by a nut - that's where some companies like Black Diamond have noted that wiregates are suitable for the bolt end as the gate can catch and open.

I think the main thing is to understand how gear works, know what could go wrong, and have some ideas of steps to take to minimise those risks.

In reply to MountainGoat82: Wires every time not because of weight saving, how much are you actually saving (about 50g, on a set of six, big wup) but there are less moving parts 1 compared to 3. Easier to look after and no difference in use. Why not try one of each and see if you notice any difference?

In reply to MountainGoat82:

All the top sports climbers use solid gate krabs and nothing untoward has happened to them as a result.